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What can stats do for you?
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tomverve
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11/7/2005  3:24 PM
Required reading, courtesy of the Knickerblogger. It's unfortunate that so many basic, naive misconceptions about stats are still floating around in the sports world, but they are, and these articles are a nice start towards debunking popular myths and misunderstandings about basketball stats. A must read, especially if you still value per game stats above all else or tend to think that stats are inherently more misleading than they are useful.

Part I:
http://www.courtsidetimes.net/articles/21/

Part II:
http://www.courtsidetimes.net/articles/23/
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11/7/2005  3:27 PM
What Can Stats Do For You? (Part I)
by KnickerBlogger | permalink | trackback

Life is made of lot of tough decisions. Let’s say you decide to rent a car for the weekend, and the person behind the counter offers you two different options at the same price. The first is for the car to come equipped with an Onstar GPS, while the second comes with a road map. Similarly if you were a juror, would you prefer a video of the incident or an eyewitness? If you hired an accountant to do your taxes, would you rather he uses a modern computer or just a calculator?

In each case it’s obvious that the former choice is better than the latter, because you would be getting more information. While a road map might be ample for travelling on major interstates and highways, it wouldn’t be able to tell you every little alleyway and back road. Everyone would rather have more information in every aspect of your life, from buying a house to playing a video game. So why is it that some people shun having more information when it comes to sports?

Just a few years ago, you would have been hard pressed to find anything other than per game stats for the NBA. Today, thanks to sites like 82games.com, basketball-reference.com, and my own stat page, you can find a host of new stats like +/-, rebounding rate, PER, and per 40 minute stats. You would think that these extra bits of information would be gold for those that like to talk hoops on basketball message boards. However, usulally the opposite occurs. Take for example these quotes:

“Hollinger’s biggest problem as an analyst is that he’s too stat-oriented. as we all know, stats don’t always tell the complete story.”

“He can’t keep using statistics like this.”

“I think the 40 per isn’t always the best stat. Isn’t there a reason that Jackie Butler only plays 2 minutes a game and Iverson plays 45?”

I didn’t have to surf far for these, as they were all from the same thread. Reading these and many other comments like them, it seems that the problems with statistics comes from misunderstanding their meaning & usage. So to fulfill my public service requirements for the New York State Criminal Court, I’d like to talk about the few hangups that are common among modern NBA stats.

ARGUMENT #1: Per minute stats are misleading. Or “would Jackie Butler average 80 pts a game?”

“Hey I just flipped a penny 10 times & got 8 heads, so you should always take heads since there’s an 80% chance that you’ll win.” Sounds pretty absurd doesn’t it? Everyone knows that a coin will land on heads half the time, and that if I flipped it another 10 times it’s more likely to be closer to 5 heads than 8. The problem is that I didn’t use enough attempts to make a proper judgement on the probability of coin flips. There are a many names for this kind of faulty thinking, incududing the clustering illusion and the fallacy of divison. Simply put this is a case of using too small a sample size.

Jackie Butler, in case you never heard of him, played a grand total of 5 minutes for the New York Knicks in 2005. In those 5 minutes, Butler hit all 4 of his shots and both his free throws to score 10 points. Judging by his per minute stats, Butler would average 80 points for every 40 minutes played! Just because Jackie’s per minute stats are supernatural, doesn’t discredit all per minute stats. Butler also had a 100% FG%, but no one is saying that FG% is worthless.

There are plenty of examples of small sample sizes. Last year the Clippers started out 1-0, but their 1.000 win percentage didn’t mean they were going 82-0. In 2005, Zydrunas Ilgauskas had 18 rebounds on opening day, but he only averaged 8.6 on the year. One game isn’t much to base a season on, and neither is 5 minutes. When using a statistic it’s important to make sure that the sample size is large enough that it’s not just an abberation. That Butler perfomed ludicrously well in the short time alloted to him doesn’t disprove per minute stats just like 8 heads in 10 flips doesn’t disprove probability theory.

ARGUMENT #2: Per game stats are better than per minute stats. Or “is Dirk Nowitzki a better rebounder than Reggie Evans?”

As I mentioned earlier, the previous defacto standard of the NBA was per game stats. The inherent problem with per game stats is that not everyone plays the same amount of minutes per game. Last year Dirk Nowitzki averaged 9.7 rebounds a game while Reggie Evans pulled down 9.3. By those numbers alone you might think that Dirk was the better rebounder, but consider this: Nowitzki averaged nearly 39 minutes a night, where Evans was just under 24. It’s reasonable to assume that if Evans was given 15 more minutes a game he would have pulled down a couple of more boards, and it’d be nice to be able to say this statistically.

Everyone is familiar with the baseball stat earned run average (ERA), but imagine if we measured pitchers by runs allowed per game instead or runs per inning. Randy Johnson’s 2.79 runs per game would look awful compared to Tanyon Sturtze’s 0.64. Luckily someone had the brilliant idea of measuring pitchers across innings pitched. By using ERA, it’s clear that Sturtze’s 4.73 ERA is almost a point higher than Johnson’s 3.79.

Per minute stats in basketball does the same thing, it can account for a disparity in playing time. Instead of dividing rebounds by games played, we can divide them by minutes played. On average Reggie Evans had 0.39 rebounds per minute, which was much higher than Dirk’s 0.25. By those numbers two things are obvious. First, Evans is a much better rebounder than Dirk (he’s nearly 50% more efficient on the glass). The second is that per minute stats are a much better way to compare players than per game stats.

What Can Stats Do For You? (Part II)
by KnickerBlogger | permalink | trackback

If you think this article begins abruptly, it is because you haven’t read Part I first.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

ARGUMENT #3: Per 40 minute stats are useless because hardly anyone plays 40 minutes. Or “there’s a reason Reggie Evans doesn’t play 40 minutes”.

In 2005 only 5 players averaged more than 40 minutes a game, so why would we choose such an unlikely high minute total for our per minute stats? Let’s take a look back at Part I’s example where I showed per minute stats to be more useful than per game stats:

On average Reggie Evans had 0.39 rebounds per minute, which was much higher than Dirk’s 0.25.

The problem with per-minute stats is that they are decimals that are hard to envision. What the heck is 0.39 of a rebound anyway! It’s just easier to comprehend that Evans averaged 15.7 rebounds for every 40 minutes played. Here’s another example, guess what Ben Wallace’s average was in 2005:

A. 0.038 Blocks/Min
B. 0.066 Blocks/Min
C. 0.132 Blocks/Min

Dirk Nowitzki is player A. Ben Wallace is player B. Player C is double Ben Wallace’s average, which might be Andrei Kirilenko standing on Shaq’s shoulders or Theo Ratliff on a pogo stick. Unless you’re used to dealing in per minute stats 0.066 blocks would be meaningless to you. Back in Part I (you did read Part I first, right?) we discussed the baseball stat ERA, which is just runs per inning multiplied by 9. Just as it’s easier to visualise Randy Johnson giving up 3.79 runs per 9 innings than 0.42 runs per inning, it makes more sense to say that Big Ben averages 2.4 blocks per 40 minutes than to talk in fractions.

The truth is we could use any multiplier for per minute stats: 10, 12, 40, 48, pi, the square root of 2, or the national debt. The number 40 was taken because in today’s NBA the best players average about that many minutes. What’s important to remember is that per 40 minute stats is not advocating that the coach should give that player 40 minutes a night. When someone mentions that Mariano Rivera had a 1.38 ERA, they’re not saying that Mo should go out and throw all 9 innings. Nor are they saying that if Rivera pitched 9 innings, the opposition would score less than a run and a half per game. There are many reasons that someone might have good per minute stats in one area and not get a ton of minutes, from poor defense to bad conditioning. In Reggie Evans’ case, he doesn’t give you much else other than rebounds and put backs. Last year sometimes the Sonics wanted a shot blocker (like Jerome James), sometimes they wanted a scorer (Radmanovic), sometimes they wanted a little of both (Collison), and sometimes they wanted the same exact thing as Evans except with a different name on the uniform (Fortson).

By using 40 minutes, no one is advocating more playing time. It’s just a fair way of comparing two players that play different minutes.

ARGUMENT #4: Statistics don’t accurately reflect what happens on the court. Or “don’t let Kyle Korver’s FG% fool you.”

Ever been forced to try to unscrew a phillips screw with a flat head screwdriver? Have you tried to follow a recipe without having all the ingredients? Ever use duct tape as a quick fix it? No this isn’t one of those “Real Men of Genius” commercials, I’m attempting to evoke that feeling of trying to do a task without having the proper tools. If you’re unable to remove that screw with the wrong type screwdriver, it’s doesn’t mean the screwdriver is broken. Nor does it mean that screwdrivers in general are useless.

So why is it when someone uses the wrong stat in basketball, there are a few people that are quick denounce all stats? Take for example the only stat presented to the public for measuring shooting accuracy, field goal percentage (FG%). When FG% places sharp shooter Kyle Korver in the bottom half of the league, it’s understandable for people to think that statistics don’t adequately describe the game. If you can’t express something as simple as shooting ability with statistics, then what hope do you have for the other complexities of basketball?

The problem lies with the mainstream media ignoring any statistical advancement since the days of George Mikan. There are a host of stats that can be easily presented to the public which are improvements over the currently used ones. Field goal percentage was useful for the early days of the NBA, but since the three pointer was adopted by the NBA in 1979 it has become obsolete. The three point shot is a high risk/high reward proposition. A player who hits 33% from behind the arc is just as efficient as someone who hits 50% from the field, but FG% doesn’t show this to be true. Effective field goal percenatage (eFG%) compensates for this difference by giving players a proportional bonus for three pointers, and puts long range bombers back on the same plane as inside bangers.

Despite having 26 years to introduce this improved stat to their readers, collectively the media has failed in their duty to inform the public. They still use stats like FG% which show Melvin Ely to be more accurate than Kyle Korver. Ely had a 43% FG% last year, while Korver shot 42%. However when compensating for the extra points awarded on a three point shot, Korver’s 57% eFG% shows him to be far superior. The media still uses rebounds per game, which shows Dirk Nowitzki to be a better rebounder than Reggie Evans (see above). They still talk about points per game which shows the 13 win Atlanta Hawks as a better defensive team than the 62 win Phoenix Suns (102.5 PPG vs. 103.3 PPG), despite points per 100 possessions (pPTS) showing the Suns to have been the superior defensive team (111.3 pPTS vs. 107.0 pPts)

Instead of putting people on television that use these accurate tools to talk about players, they put on their circus show of performers. At halftime of a nationally televised game they’d rather spend time showing amateurishly doctored images of their commentators that would get booed off of a Fark photoshop contest. Sports shows feature those that can scream their point the loudest, not the ones that make the most sense (right, Mr. Cuban?) The print media is slowly catching on, but is still behind the times. Only a handful of stat savvy writers have been hired, such as John Hollinger of ESPN.com, Kevin Pelton of SuperSonics.com, and Martin Johnson of the New York Sun.

The media has perpetuated the myth of stats being occasionally useful but largely lacking. I want to throw my tv out the window when I hear something like “Kyle Korver only shot 42% last year, but don’t let that stat fool you.” Ironically it’s not the stat fooling the public, but the person using it.

Solace
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11/7/2005  8:06 PM
Heh. How many times on this very site did I get blasted for using per 40 minute stats because some couldn't understand them? I love the new stats that have come out over the years. They're the only thing that comes close to painting an accurate picture.
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rvhoss
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11/7/2005  9:46 PM
statistics baby!
all kool aid all the time.
Mac
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11/8/2005  10:43 AM
Nice stuff by KB; though, it would've been nice to read something on PER.
tomverve
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11/9/2005  9:11 PM
Part III is up:
http://www.courtsidetimes.net/articles/6/

Read this to learn why per game team stats are flawed and misleading, and what we can use in their place. It's high time everyone realized that per game stats are not at all the gold standard. It's time to transcend. The revolution will not be televised.

PS: No, I will not paste the entire article here. Just click on the link you lazy bastards. Courtsidetimes.net is worth your time.
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tomverve
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11/16/2005  2:20 AM
And now Part IV:
http://www.courtsidetimes.net/articles/119/

Wherein Knickerblogger introduces the four factors, the key aspects of the game that determine a team's offensive and defensive efficiency.
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codeunknown
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11/16/2005  3:52 AM
Stats are important only in proportion to how they quanitfy what you're interested in measuring. Statistics are often flawed when making generalizations but they can give you an empirically reproducible for specific situations. Like the aritcle said, its difficult to measure individual performance in an interdependent sport - its ironic, though, that the article continues to then proclaim Reggie Evans a better rebounder than Nowitzki. Not that it isn't true - but, as was hinted, rebounding rates are a function of the team and the opposition - in other words, it matters who you're playing with and which unit (1st or 2nd) you're playing against. Both of these factors, teammates and opposition, are vastly different for Dirk and Reggie on average and, if you were a stickler, that would render the two not easily comparable in terms of basketball production.

The other aspect of the 4th article is that the 4 factors, although taking special care to account for the quantity of possessions, don't investigate the relationship between the 4 factors - which might actually be more telling than the raw numbers presented. For example, the offensive rebounding statistic is obviously influenced by the number of taken 3 pointers, which result in long rebounds. Thus, offensive rebounding after either a 2 or 3 point shot might be an interesting statistic to keep. The practical difficulty of recording these statitsics is a drawback but the more specific variables you measure - the better the conclusions you can make.
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fishmike
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11/16/2005  7:50 AM
stats bore me. They try make something about rising above others, something about emotion and conflict and try to make it scientific. Stats don't illustrate the flow of a game or the emotions a player brings to the floor. They don't differentiate between a guy that fills the sheet and the guy that can take over for 60 critical seconds and elevate his team to a win. There's only one true stat in sport. Wins.
Want to see who's the best? watch the games is my advice.
Its like analyzing art to me. I think what bothers me about them is I know there are guys that judge players by stat sheets. Guys that think AI only scores a ton because he chucks up so many shots. Guys that thought Ben Wallace was a liability on offense when Pistons lost 50 games. etc etc
Stats dont show how one team plays above the value of the sum of its parts, while another has productive players that dont win.

Its a good post and good articles. I just get bugged because I know there are guys here that talk about players they have never seen play, instead they plow through stats and drop their opinions on you as fact because, of course.. they have stats to prove their points.

Briggs is the resident UK drama queen. He goes from hot to cold on our team like my 2 year old's mood swings after a bag of jellie beans. But when he talks about players like Bynum, Stoudemire, Gerald Green or Channing Frye its because he *saw* something. just a thought
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Marv
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11/16/2005  10:07 AM
Good discussion.

I always like the interplay of stats and observation. Those questions like, okay if D MIles's stats are so good, how come when I watch him play he comes off like a loser? What can we isolate in his game that accounts for that? Does it show up in any stats? How do you link up something that you see and sense about a guy with statistical breakdowns? Is there something you can pinpoint? Maybe not, is there some question we can't answer yet, so we'll all look specifically for it the next game, key in on an aspect of a guy's game? That stuff fascinates me. In the discussions about AWalker's game, there were lots of strong stats but some felt they came at the expense of team goals.

I know that I've always said don't tell me KVH is a good rebounder. I don't care how many he gets per game, I watch the guy and see that he gets the non-contact rebounds, the ones he doesn't have to fight for. Is a rebound a rebound? Depends on what you're looking for from a guy, Sure any rebounds are good, but some truly are more meaningful than others and determine whether you can really count on a guy to get a tough board or not when it's most crucial.

I used to post at nykbasketball before I came to Ultimate and used to argue with guys all the time about Steph (in his NJ and Pho days). They'd laud his assists, I'd say, "Yea but watch, KVH has to readjust every time he gets the ball from Steph before he shoots, Steph doesn't deliver in the rhythm of someone's shooting motion. Is an assist an assist? Well maybe a guy would get more assists if he delivered differently. Interesting stuff to me.

In the discussion on Q's D,talking about charges and hustle stats, Martin came up with this comment:
His D has been silently remarkable. More positional than lockdown.

Perfect description. More positional than lockdown, silently remarkable. Those are the words I've been searching for that perfectly capture what I've been seeing from Q. Really puts a face on the stat that he leads the Knicks with 6 charges taken.

So I agree with Fish that stats alone are way too dry, overgeneralized and don't capture the heart and soul and true picture of what's happening on the court. But at the same time they do provide a great framework to try to focus your observations, consider some specific issues, elevate your discussions and get us all keying in on watching the same thing to try to account for something that statitistically stands out.
Allanfan20
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11/16/2005  10:23 AM
I totally agree that stats are misleading. How do you know someone didn't score all their points in garbage time? How do we know how someone earned these points. Last year, Jamal was averaging 17 points a game, but a lot of people didn't realize it was mainly from 3 pt chucks, and sometimes he would get hot. This year, he has the chucking reputation. He's prolly averaging about the same, but people don't realize how he's impacting the game now with layups and sweet midrange Js.

Another example is Al Harrington from last night. I was watching ESPN and was so impressed that the guy scored 22 points. And they were even showing highlites which can also be totally misleading. But they then threw in another fact. 21 of his 22 points came in the FIRST QUARTER.

Stats are a good topic of conversation, and on the message boards, you can use them as a nice tool to feed your conveersation, if you use it wisely. But in reality, Marv and fishmikw are 100% correct. You really need to watch the game to see what's going on. And if you don't watch the game, it's actually better to hear the opinions of a knowledgable fan like Briggs, who seems to watch every basketball game the Earth offers.
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tomverve
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11/16/2005  1:44 PM
Posted by codeunknown:

Stats are important only in proportion to how they quanitfy what you're interested in measuring. Statistics are often flawed when making generalizations but they can give you an empirically reproducible for specific situations. Like the aritcle said, its difficult to measure individual performance in an interdependent sport - its ironic, though, that the article continues to then proclaim Reggie Evans a better rebounder than Nowitzki. Not that it isn't true - but, as was hinted, rebounding rates are a function of the team and the opposition - in other words, it matters who you're playing with and which unit (1st or 2nd) you're playing against. Both of these factors, teammates and opposition, are vastly different for Dirk and Reggie on average and, if you were a stickler, that would render the two not easily comparable in terms of basketball production.

Agreed, that is a good point. However, there have been studies that have indicated that the effect of context on a player's production, on average, might not be as significant as one might think. For instance, IIRC, players to to maintain or even increase their statistical outputs per-minute or possession when they get increased minutes, and players who have been drafted by expansion teams (entailing a drastically different context and role for the player in most cases), on average, put up stats quite comparable with ones they have previously recorded. I don't recall offhand where I've seen those studies but if you're interested I could try digging them up.

A big question is to what extent usage rate impacts a player's offensive stats. That is a tricky issue and I don't think there are yet any really conclusive studies.
The other aspect of the 4th article is that the 4 factors, although taking special care to account for the quantity of possessions, don't investigate the relationship between the 4 factors - which might actually be more telling than the raw numbers presented. For example, the offensive rebounding statistic is obviously influenced by the number of taken 3 pointers, which result in long rebounds. Thus, offensive rebounding after either a 2 or 3 point shot might be an interesting statistic to keep. The practical difficulty of recording these statitsics is a drawback but the more specific variables you measure - the better the conclusions you can make.


Good points again, but I think you have to consider that this is only an introductory article. Knickerblogger mentions schemes for assigning specific weights to the factors in terms of their importance to overall offensive or defensive efficiency, for example, without elaborating on that further. Creating more refined stats is also always going to be informative, and I think that's a direction things are going in (see 82games.com). 82games.com is also performing an ambitious defensive charting study this season which will hopefully lay the groundwork for a solid statistical analysis of defense.
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fishmike
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11/16/2005  1:46 PM
greate site.. 82games

Its a simple idea. How does the team play when a player or unit is on the floor
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Knight
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11/16/2005  1:49 PM
Interesting stuff. Pretty soon we should be able to predict a Knicks win with some degree of accuracy.
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Bonn1997
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11/16/2005  1:56 PM
Posted by fishmike:

greate site.. 82games

Its a simple idea. How does the team play when a player or unit is on the floor
I remember you telling me I was obsessed with useless stats when I pointed out a few years ago that the Knicks +/- with Spree was bad. Now you like the stat? You cited how Marion had a terrible +/- that year too and said it was a garbage stat.


[Edited by - Bonn1997 on 11-16-2005 1:57 PM]
Knight
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11/16/2005  1:57 PM
Fish is being polite.
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tomverve
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11/16/2005  2:06 PM
Posted by fishmike:

stats bore me. They try make something about rising above others, something about emotion and conflict and try to make it scientific. Stats don't illustrate the flow of a game

I don't think anyone has ever argued that stats are the ONLY way to understand basketball. Rather, they are a highly valuable *complementary* way to understand the game and its teams and players. This is not an either-or proposition. There are some things for which watching games is better, and others for which stats are better.

That said, I think the role of statistics is misunderstood to the extent that people equate currently existing stats with stats in general. Currently existing and/or popularly known stats perhaps do not really do anything to chart the flow of a game, but that doesn't mean we couldn't come up with statistical measures to chart these things if we wanted to. There will always be tradeoffs between how finely you want to carve up the game, what assumptions you make, how much effort goes into charting a given stat and so on. Are stats a perfect way to understand basketball? No, they're not, but we can always make them better. On that note, is watching a game a perfect way to understand basketball, even if you're an expert? No, it's not. All methods will have their flaws.

You mentioned some things observation might have over stats. What do stats have over observation?

Large sample sizes. One person can only watch so many games, and there is a fundamental statistical problem with extrapolating from small sample sizes. Collecting and analyzing stats from a large set of games gets around this and helps us to come to sounder conclusions. And indeed, *everyone* already does this all the time, by looking at boxscores and league leaders and so on; people rely on stats more than they realize, even if they disavow the role that stats play. A major movement that is happening now is just that people are uncovering how convential bball stats are flawed and making up better ones. This should not be met with resistance by the casual fan who already uses (flawed, per game) stats all the time; rather, they should be met with open arms.

You mentioned something about emotions and being 'scientific.' Is there something to that as well? Sure there is. Humans are just not very good at making statistical judgments by eye or intuition, so wherever we want to make such judgments, we're better off complementing our understanding with objectively charted and recorded numbers. This is not hard at all to demonstrate-- any time you've ever been surprised by a stat in a box score for a game you watched, this is at play. Our judgments can be flawed so it behooves us to try to eliminate those flaws.
or the emotions a player brings to the floor. They don't differentiate between a guy that fills the sheet and the guy that can take over for 60 critical seconds and elevate his team to a win. There's only one true stat in sport. Wins.

Claims like this are addressed tangentially in Part IV of Knickerblogger's series. The idea is, even if we can't chart certain things specifically, we can keep track of how they impact a game. How do we evaluate the value of a high emotion, high energy player who doesn't fill up the boxscore? Well, if that player is really helping his team win, then on average his team will do better when he's on the court compared to when he's off it. In other words, he will have a good +/- ranking.

How do we differentiate between guys that can take over in the clutch and those who can't? Keep separate stats for clutch situations. They do this already at 82games.com.

And so on. Name me anything you think is important to the outcome of a basketball game and I bet I can name you a statistic that will measure its impact on the game in some way. The stat might not measure the thing itself (like emotion) but if it can measure the impact it has on the game, we should be fine, because in the end all that really matters is how something affects the outcome of a game.
Want to see who's the best? watch the games is my advice.

I'd say watch the games AND use the stats. It is simply shortsighted to judge something without using all the information available to you. But I think you already agree with this even if you speak as if you don't. You do it every time you use per game stats in a post. You could do it better if you used better stats than per game stats.

Stats dont show how one team plays above the value of the sum of its parts, while another has productive players that dont win.

Maybe you can think of a specific example and we can see what statistical analysis has to say on the matter?

Really, I think the latest article by Knickerblogger pretty much addresses this. Teams that win win because they have a better offensive efficiency than they do a defensive efficiency. We can break this down further and explain in terms of the 4 factors. From there, it should not be difficult to show that, for instance, team X has a bunch of stat stuffers who nonetheless turn the ball over a lot and shoot poorly percentage wise, which is what leads to poor offensive efficiency and ultimately why they don't win.
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codeunknown
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11/16/2005  2:13 PM
Posted by Marv:


So I agree with Fish that stats alone are way too dry, overgeneralized and don't capture the heart and soul and true picture of what's happening on the court. But at the same time they do provide a great framework to try to focus your observations, consider some specific issues, elevate your discussions and get us all keying in on watching the same thing to try to account for something that statitistically stands out.

I agree that the stats currently recorded are too over-generalized. But, thats the flaw of the statistician and the commercial nature of stats these days - not of the science of statistics. Fishmike said that stats "bore" him - its true - one of the main reasons fans look at stats is because we can't watch every game. But, even as a strategist or say, a head coach, stats are invaluable in evaluating your team and opposing teams - incisive statistics go beyond the summary of a box score. If I was a head coach, there's no question I would look at specific stats like % of non-fastbreak shots taken in first 14 seconds of shot clock in the 4th quarter or % of shots taken by player X on broken plays. Analyzing the subtleties of a particular offensive set is clearly better done through direct observation - mismatches are determined a priori. But in analyzing subtle tendencies, statistics are helpful without a doubt.
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11/16/2005  2:21 PM
Posted by Allanfan20:

I totally agree that stats are misleading. How do you know someone didn't score all their points in garbage time? How do we know how someone earned these points. Last year, Jamal was averaging 17 points a game, but a lot of people didn't realize it was mainly from 3 pt chucks, and sometimes he would get hot. This year, he has the chucking reputation. He's prolly averaging about the same, but people don't realize how he's impacting the game now with layups and sweet midrange Js.

Another example is Al Harrington from last night. I was watching ESPN and was so impressed that the guy scored 22 points. And they were even showing highlites which can also be totally misleading. But they then threw in another fact. 21 of his 22 points came in the FIRST QUARTER.

Stats are a good topic of conversation, and on the message boards, you can use them as a nice tool to feed your conveersation, if you use it wisely. But in reality, Marv and fishmikw are 100% correct. You really need to watch the game to see what's going on. And if you don't watch the game, it's actually better to hear the opinions of a knowledgable fan like Briggs, who seems to watch every basketball game the Earth offers.

1. I agree slightly on the "garbage time" stat, but I have one problem with it. A player like Jamal averaged 38 minutes a game last year. Of those 2600+ minutes, how many could have been in garbage time? How many garbage time minutes does a team see a year? 10? 50? 100?

2. 21 points in the first quarter counts just as much toward the final score as 21 in the 4th. Your implication is that Harrington didn't have a good night because he only finished with 22 points. It's entirely possible that the other team adjusted to this by double teaming him, putting better defenders in the game, etc. It's also entirely possible that he just sucked the rest of the way & hurt his team by missing all of his attempts and turning the ball over. In this example I would say that it's not the stats that were misleading, but your interpretation of them.

3. I hate the implication that stats don't go hand in hand with watching the game. Most of the "statheads" I know watch the games fanatically. With the exception of the blackout - I didn't miss any Knick games last year. I haven't missed a single Knick game this year. It's just that commenting about basketball without looking at stats is like trying to hit a curveball with one eye closed. You're missing a very helpful perspective.




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11/16/2005  2:29 PM
Posted by codeunknown:

For example, the offensive rebounding statistic is obviously influenced by the number of taken 3 pointers, which result in long rebounds. Thus, offensive rebounding after either a 2 or 3 point shot might be an interesting statistic to keep.

IIRC, someone did a study on this in one of the APBRmetrics boards & found that offensive rebounding is not affected by three point shots. In other words, if you take a three pointer, you don't have a better chance at getting the rebound. This is why our motto at CTN is "basketball analysis beyond conventional wisdom." Conventional wisdom says you have a better chance of getting an offensive rebound off of 3 pointers, but no one ever thought to test it out before passing it on as wisdom.

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