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were going to pay a STEEP price for keeping david lee
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BRIGGS
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11/5/2005  2:20 PM
tom, i feel reasonably comfortable assuming the newspaper accounts[which were accurate on a LOT of this, almost all of it prior to the trade, the delays, the ongoing negotiations, that the original deal that Chicago requested was thomas, sweetney and lee. That is a fair rational deal, especially since Paxson said he was trying to trade up for Lee. I think, as reported the delays were on the compensation and thats where we added in extra 2s and the ability for chicago to change picks in 2007 to get them off lee--we offered them a package worth MORE than lee. It makes just a tad bit of sense. Let one of the insiders here honestl;y refute that the Bulls didnt ask for lee, because it was reported in all of the chicago papers and all of the NY papers, + Paxson came out and said they tried to trade up for Lee. What the Knicks had to do was get chicago to go past the Lee request--and there i think they put a bad hedge down
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oohah
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11/5/2005  2:27 PM
as for lee, id rather have all the picks, i still dont like an undersized 4 who cant shoot or block shots--hes not worth all those picks.

All what picks? Picks do not equal good players. Then those players have to develop into serviceable players.

How is Lee undersized?

oohah



Good luck Mike D'Antoni, 'cause you ain't never seen nothing like this before!
tomverve
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11/5/2005  2:29 PM
Assume that Lee really was a sticking point. How do we know that the Knicks substituted the 2006 first rounder? Maybe the subbed in the 2 second rounders instead? You are assuming that it was either Lee or a 2006 first rounder, but there is not any reason to really believe that that was the case. It may have been the case, but that's not enough to go on. To make an argument like you want to make it has to be probable, not just possible, that we subbed in the 2006 pick for Lee. And I don't think anyone here has the resources to establish that.
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franco12
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11/5/2005  2:43 PM
Posted by tomverve:

Assume that Lee really was a sticking point. How do we know that the Knicks substituted the 2006 first rounder? Maybe the subbed in the 2 second rounders instead? You are assuming that it was either Lee or a 2006 first rounder, but there is not any reason to really believe that that was the case. It may have been the case, but that's not enough to go on. To make an argument like you want to make it has to be probable, not just possible, that we subbed in the 2006 pick for Lee. And I don't think anyone here has the resources to establish that.


it might have been lee & picks- it could have been Isiah that tried to offer Lee instead of picks.

And after game one, you could have said the same thing about Frye in lieu of Lee

'Why did we give up picks, we should have given them frye, he's going to get 82 dnps this year'
BRIGGS
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11/5/2005  2:56 PM
Posted by oohah:

[quote] as for lee, id rather have all the picks, i still dont like an undersized 4 who cant shoot or block shots--hes not worth all those picks.

All what picks? Picks do not equal good players. Then those players have to develop into serviceable players.

How is Lee undersized?

oohah




My personal opinion,what I mean by hedge, is that if we are not good the next two years--even if we hit the number 1 pick in the draft--its chicago's--forget the 2nd round picks--if ANYONE think that potentially two top 10 picks or higher are worth less than David Lee, you are out of your gord.
I didnt like it when i heard it, and after the first two games i like it less. 1-2 players CAN change a team around, it happens EVERY single year. David Lee is NOT that type of player, he is an undersized 4 who cant shoot, hes could be a nice complimentary piece who brings athletiscm and energy, but he is no high caliber prospect.
Sometimes, especially with this organization, they just go for the now--everything is now, and I understand what i am saying here--knowing lee is young and also can be considered a future asset for the knicks, but we didnt trade him at the hedge of a much higher prize. Exactly why we didnt take bynum, and exactly why were not very good.
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Bonn1997
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11/5/2005  3:39 PM
Let's play a fun "you finish the sentence" game
Posted by BRIGGS:




when i first realized we couldve just given them lee instead of the pick...
I had just finished snorting cocaine
teslawlo
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11/5/2005  3:57 PM
We all need to lay off the criticism already - there is no place for it after a 0-2 start. First of all, I don't think many here saw this team as a high playoff seed/contender type this season. Brown is here to elevate the team from mediocre to good, not what he did with the pistons (good to great). Some of you guys can't resist pushing the panic button - here are the facts - brown's teams take a long time to adjust to him, he doesn't adjust to the team. We have 13 road dates in our first 19 games. I have no expectations whatsoever to come out of that any better than .500 at best. As knicks fans we must be committed for the long haul and we should seek the winning attitude and wise coaching pointers that brown will give our young guys. Look what brown did to the pistons - he made them believe, and now they are still an excellent team -> last night, blount hit a seemingly game winning shot vs them, and rip hamilton responded with a game winning 20 footer at the buzzer. No one ever said winning was going to be easy.
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tkf
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11/5/2005  4:13 PM
Posted by oohah:

So what if next year's draft is better, worse or the same? Are we definitely getting a better player than Lee? We don't know how Lee is going to pan out, let alone a pick that whose position hasn't been determined, or how that theoretical player will develop.

Silly.

oohah

and if the draft is that deep then good for us, since we have the spurs pick....


Anyone who sits around and waits for the lottery to better themselves, either in real life or in sports, Is a Loser............... TKF
Nalod
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11/5/2005  4:20 PM
Brigg-A-Doom,

Be Cool!

Now if Lee is the real deal, who says we can't turn around and either by himself, or with sumthin sumthin get a pick for him?

I think I read that Isiah has burned thru 38 different players since he been here. No wonder that contract expert was fired last week, the boy musta been fried out his mind with all these contracts to deal with. Think it may be time to let these fella just get it together and grow as a T-E-A-M!

Briggy, I don't know if you just don't believe when Larry says its gonnna be rough at first. This was before camp even started. You gonna beleive Larry, or you gonna believe the fabricated internet circle jerk mentality that exists with internet chatter?

Did you really think we were gonna bust out from the gate?

I like how the game picker % is changing. Briggy think investments dude, you gonna run with the masses, or go the road less traveled and seek a deeper understanding? You sell when others are selling? How you gonna buy low doing that? take that cash off the sideline fool and jump in the game. stop panicking and regretting and get in the game.

You not see anyting last nite? I saw channing prove he can play! I say Marbs look stupid, and larry gonna show Marbs and if its gut check time marbs is gonna TRY to get better at what he sucks. With his contract, he ain't going anywhere but either to the dog house or be the maestro!

Stop lamenting about each deal. If we a lowly lotto team then we should not have tradded for Curry at all, thats the mistake, not speculating on our picks. Why get curry if you still think your gonna suck? If so, then lament on that thought!
tkf
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11/5/2005  4:20 PM
Posted by oohah:
as for lee, id rather have all the picks, i still dont like an undersized 4 who cant shoot or block shots--hes not worth all those picks.

All what picks? Picks do not equal good players. Then those players have to develop into serviceable players.

How is Lee undersized?




oohah


good post..

oohah: this is the type of sensationalism that prevailed during Hurricane Katrina... for example

" thousands of people floating dead in the river"

" Bush oredering the national guard to shoot black people"

now we have

"giving away all those picks"

Short statements,untrue statements like that are used to validate a otherwise weak argument, and I say weak because if you had a strong argument you would not need to stretch the truth... I am still waiting for an explination of "all those picks"...

Now we have Lee being undersized...
And we are now supposed to assume that lee would not be as good as a mid first round pick next year.. and why? all because it feeds into the hysteria...




Anyone who sits around and waits for the lottery to better themselves, either in real life or in sports, Is a Loser............... TKF
NotFrye
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11/5/2005  4:47 PM
Posted by nyk4ever:

I've never seen a more sensationalist person. EVER.


Briggs can read minds?
nyk4ever
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11/5/2005  4:52 PM
Posted by NotFrye:

Briggs can read minds?

sensationalist

n : someone who uses exaggerated or lurid material in order to gain public attention




[Edited by - nyk4ever on 11-05-2005 4:52 PM]
"OMG - did we just go on a two-trade-wining-streak?" -SupremeCommander
NotFrye
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11/5/2005  4:55 PM
Posted by nyk4ever:
Posted by NotFrye:

Briggs can read minds?

sensationalist

n : someone who uses exaggerated or lurid material in order to gain public attention




[Edited by - nyk4ever on 11-05-2005 4:52 PM]

Thanks. My bad!
BRIGGS
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11/5/2005  5:07 PM
Posted by Nalod:

Brigg-A-Doom,

Be Cool!

Now if Lee is the real deal, who says we can't turn around and either by himself, or with sumthin sumthin get a pick for him?

I think I read that Isiah has burned thru 38 different players since he been here. No wonder that contract expert was fired last week, the boy musta been fried out his mind with all these contracts to deal with. Think it may be time to let these fella just get it together and grow as a T-E-A-M!

Briggy, I don't know if you just don't believe when Larry says its gonnna be rough at first. This was before camp even started. You gonna beleive Larry, or you gonna believe the fabricated internet circle jerk mentality that exists with internet chatter?

Did you really think we were gonna bust out from the gate?

I like how the game picker % is changing. Briggy think investments dude, you gonna run with the masses, or go the road less traveled and seek a deeper understanding? You sell when others are selling? How you gonna buy low doing that? take that cash off the sideline fool and jump in the game. stop panicking and regretting and get in the game.

You not see anyting last nite? I saw channing prove he can play! I say Marbs look stupid, and larry gonna show Marbs and if its gut check time marbs is gonna TRY to get better at what he sucks. With his contract, he ain't going anywhere but either to the dog house or be the maestro!

Stop lamenting about each deal. If we a lowly lotto team then we should not have tradded for Curry at all, thats the mistake, not speculating on our picks. Why get curry if you still think your gonna suck? If so, then lament on that thought!



I don't think that Larry brown will turn this pile of mish mosh around. I don't even
know if LB was the right man for the job at this time.
What I would like for them to do is look for a guy who can play 2 way basketball from the backcourt, who can also drive and shoot the mid range with athletic ability. Right now, forgetting in the internet chatter, teams are going to sag on us and double team marbury to death because we odnt have a consistent threat from the 2G. One thing at a time here. I like Devin Harris, I do know Dallas will need toughness and a guy like antonio davis MIGHt be the difference for them, add in Lee and nate for some yoot to add it up with kvh as the trade $. But from a pure basketball perspective, while we have many needs, id like to see us put a real nice 2G in place. Im not worried about 6-3 6-6 etc... hes a serious talent who plays vicious D.
We can move craw to back up PG and move Q between 2-3
RIP Crushalot😞
Bonn1997
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11/5/2005  5:41 PM
Briggs, you realize your opinion has taken close to a 180 degree turn after two games? You even called this team a "contender" when we got Curry.
Knight
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11/5/2005  5:47 PM
I thought we were a contender too when we got Curry. I overestimated how much Larry could improve our players.
"He only went to Georgia Tech for one year, and that's an engineering school." -LB
Bonn1997
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11/5/2005  5:51 PM
Briggs' thread title: imho, we are now legitmate contenders for everything
Author Thread
BRIGGS
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--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
we have the firepower to do it--we had massive change who knows what will fall where, but we have a LOT of firepwoer to deal with size strength athletiscm outside shooting

give Thomas and Dolan 125% credit some things might not jell right away , but i feel real good about this-as long as curry is healthy
http://www.ultimateknicks.com/forum/topic.asp?t=11622&page=1



[Edited by - Bonn1997 on 11-05-2005 5:55 PM]
fishmike
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11/5/2005  6:25 PM
a week ago Briggs was feeling warm about this team. He said we will make the playoffs and have a good squad. Lithium man
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
oohah
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11/5/2005  6:27 PM
My personal opinion,what I mean by hedge, is that if we are not good the next two years--even if we hit the number 1 pick in the draft--its chicago's--forget the 2nd round picks--

And what if we don't get the number one or a lottery pick?
if ANYONE think that potentially two top 10 picks or higher are worth less than David Lee, you are out of your gord.

Are you talking about the value of the picks themselves? Or the players? How can you judge the relative value of players who don't "exist" yet to players who do?
1-2 players CAN change a team around, it happens EVERY single year.

True, but very infrequently are those players rookies...

David Lee is NOT that type of player, he is an undersized 4 who cant shoot, hes could be a nice complimentary piece who brings athletiscm and energy, but he is no high caliber prospect.

I agree with that, I think people have been a little over-excited about Lee, like he is the next coming of Tom Chambers. Once again: How is David Lee undersized?
Sometimes, especially with this organization, they just go for the now--everything is now, and I understand what i am saying here--knowing lee is young and also can be considered a future asset for the knicks, but we didnt trade him at the hedge of a much higher prize.

But you are describing a very risky hedge...it requires that that the Knicks are terrible and then they have to pick a great player who turns it all around. Not likely.
Exactly why we didnt take bynum, and exactly why were not very good.

If he plays here, I think Lee will help this team more in the next 3 years than Bynum will help his.
One thing at a time here. I like Devin Harris,

Ain't no way we are getting Devin Harris. He is Dallas' point guard of the future.

I do know Dallas will need toughness and a guy like antonio davis MIGHt be the difference for them, add in Lee and nate for some yoot to add it up with kvh as the trade $.

We give Dallas a guy about to retire and two unproven players for one of the bright young talents in the league and an established player like Van Horn? I really don't know if Mark Cuban likes crack....

***

It seems to me that the type of player we need, the type of player you have described, somebody to ease Marbury's scoring duties, someone to help the Knicks rebound and handle the ball--->(Church Lady Voice) could it be....ANTOINE WALKER!!!!

Remember when we argued about that for a week? You gave me all sorts of candidates who would be better for us...including JOSH McROBERTS, MIKE SWEETNEY, and STROMILE SWIFT. I noticed you ignored my Antoine Walker thread BRIGGS...So did you tomverve.

oohah



[Edited by - oohah on 11-05-2005 6:34 PM]
Good luck Mike D'Antoni, 'cause you ain't never seen nothing like this before!
Bonn1997
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11/5/2005  6:44 PM
Posted by fishmike:

a week ago Briggs was feeling warm about this team. He said we will make the playoffs and have a good squad. Lithium man
Who you talkin' to? No one disputes what you said about Briggs' a week ago. His view of this team covers the whole range of possibilities and changes as often as most people change their underwear; I'm sure you're right that at one point he said it was a playoff team.


[Edited by - Bonn1997 on 11-05-2005 6:44 PM]
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were going to pay a STEEP price for keeping david lee
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