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H20 might be calling it a career
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Killa4luv
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10/12/2005  6:54 AM
Silverfuel you seem to be missing the point.

Knee problems for a big and knee problems for a guard are totally different even if the damage is exactly the same. they play different styles of games and bigs can compensate better because of what they are asked to do on the court.

Physical pain and emotional pain are different things.
Physical pain/damage makes certain physical actions impossible.
Emotional pain/damage does not necasarily do the same thing. It can, but doesn't have to.

A broken leg ALWAYS effects how you play basketball.
A broken heart can, but doesn't have to effect how you play basketball.

No one knows what kind of pain Houston is dealing with. Is it the same as Ewings or more severe? Was TIm Thomas' pain as severe? Who knows? We do know H20 didn't get the surgery he was recommended to get, and he is stil having problems with his knee and may have to retire.

BTW, we don't wanna check other forums, this is the best one by a longshot, why should Houston get bashed for this? He signed a contract je didn't ask for and now he will be forced to retire and is salary will come off the books. He was a good player who Dolan overpaid, and we could use him this year but will probably be better off in the longrun with him off of our books.
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Silverfuel
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10/12/2005  7:19 AM
Killa4luv, my point is this. His knee problems couldnt be as bad. If his knee problems were as severe, how come he refused surgery and thought just rehab would cure it? Houston is not a warrior so making excuses for him is getting tired. Ewing played 2 years on those terrible knees so comparing them is as out there as me comparing this to TT's mental anguish.

About the other forums, I only said this because oohah questioned my rationale. But its never good to doubt someone thats injured. I will stop now but I dont think its fair to say "maybe Ewing's injury was not as severe".

[Edited by - Silverfuel on 10-12-2005 12:46 PM]
A journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step.
fishmike
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10/12/2005  7:56 AM
Posted by oohah:
I'm just saying Allan is a bit of a wuss for thinking he can't play with pain.

Franco, I am in the same position as Allan Houston. I promise you that he is in more pain daily than you seem to think. In fact, he has played with pain for years and that is ultimately his demise.

oohah
thank you... Houston was one of the most reliable guys and always played hurt. It probably will end his career early because of that fact.


"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
GoNyGoNyGo
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10/12/2005  8:08 AM
H20 has done waht his body has let him. His knees are shot. There is no doubt. Prior to these injuries the guy NEVER missed a game.

If he retires, he deserves our respects. He was a warrior in those HeatKnick battles of the 90s. The guy has guts. I am sad to see him off the team, because NY needs a shooter like him, MONEY! But, I am glad for him that he gave it one last try. He will still get his $$ and he will live in pain, but the pain will be much less when he is not required to do all that running, cutting and jumping!

By the way, NY may get a salary exemption because of this. This could be included in a trade. Perhaps that and some other expiring deals could be sent to a team that wants to rebuild that has a superstar who may want to get out....Minnesota??
Nalod
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10/12/2005  9:21 AM
Posted by Silverfuel:

If a players contract in the NBA can be reconstructed which will help the team, the player should reconstruct the contract. This has to be last resort which was pretty true in the Layden era. Presuming the player wants the team to win and there arent any other ways becuase of being capped out, a TEAM PLAYER would help out his team by reconstructing his contract.

If he doesnt care about the team or winning then he doesnt have to reconstruct his contract.

I don't think the union would permit it. They don't do restructures in the nba, unless there is more money.

I give Allan a pass cuz I just don't see any reason to hate on him. The money seems to be most at issue and given the teams lack of effort to even get near the cap, its just not an issue to really blame him on. Allan was a very very healty productive player who played hurt for while. Its not like he never would. The other thing is I don't believe he ever really improved to what was expected of him. Maybe thats becasue of the money? I think Allan did put in an HONEST effort. Gazy effort is unforgivable. Just my opinion.

Our problems were much deeper than allans inability to rebound or defend. Marbs does not defend either!

If this is it, why kick him when he is down? its all been said before and the team has long made plans without him.

knicks1248
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10/12/2005  10:55 AM
What do you mean he played hurt for a while, Allan never sd a thinng about knee issues, until he bangd knees with ( forgot who) that when ll this knee drama started getting serious. He's been healthy prior to that for his whole career. Then this "PLAY FOR CHANEY'S JOB", (probably the worst coach in knick history) stuff started to take a toll on a season that never had a chance.

That one season has been the reason we are suffering still to this day in so many areas.
ES
Allanfan20
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10/12/2005  1:28 PM
He played through a badly sprained ankle in the playoffs that one year, and in the '02- '03 season, he had knee, back, wrist and ankle problems, and in the end, he had microfracture knee surgery.

What I don't get is this. Some people on this board AREN'T doing their research. NO MATTER WHAT, microfracture seems to be another name for the the beginning of the end of a players career, if he's in his 30s or so. So I honestly think that no surgery would have helped him. In fact, it would have probably hurt his playing career, if anything. In fact, I don't get where people say surgery was recommended. It was mentioned in the papers were NO SOURSES! Sorry, but Allan may not have been a Warrior like Ewing, but he was certainly a soldier. I am sorry if that offends certain people.
“Whenever I’m about to do something, I think ‘Would an idiot do that?’ and if they would, I do NOT do that thing.”- Dwight Schrute
Bippity10
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10/12/2005  1:37 PM
Yeah I don't understand that. Allan was one of those guys that just played, never complained, never told people about his nicks and bruises. He just played, and never missed games. Give the guy some props, like him or not. Well maybe if he flexed after dunks and told people how he needed more money to feed his kids people would think he was tougher.
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Pharzeone
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10/12/2005  2:36 PM
Posted by Allanfan20:

He played through a badly sprained ankle in the playoffs that one year, and in the '02- '03 season, he had knee, back, wrist and ankle problems, and in the end, he had microfracture knee surgery.

What I don't get is this. Some people on this board AREN'T doing their research. NO MATTER WHAT, microfracture seems to be another name for the the beginning of the end of a players career, if he's in his 30s or so. So I honestly think that no surgery would have helped him. In fact, it would have probably hurt his playing career, if anything. In fact, I don't get where people say surgery was recommended. It was mentioned in the papers were NO SOURSES! Sorry, but Allan may not have been a Warrior like Ewing, but he was certainly a soldier. I am sorry if that offends certain people.

I am split on Houston playing through real pain. I think he played through soreness but I don't think he has played through Ewing type of pain. I stil don't understand the 99 season. The guy played 2 1/2 series with a partial ACL tear. That Miami series still is one of my best Ewing performances for what he had to overcome and against Zo. That's freakish. Houston probably hurt himself not getting the surgery when the Knicks suggested but I now look at the fact that he was trying to be a leader and show his team what he is willing to do.


I don't like to play bad rookies , I like to play good rookies - Mike D'Antoni
HARDCOREKNICKSFAN
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10/12/2005  7:44 PM
Posted by Bippity10:

Well maybe if he flexed after dunks and told people how he needed more money to feed his kids people would think he was tougher.

What's "tough" is having to hear about Allan's on-again, off-again story for the third year in a row. He earned his props some time ago, but it's time that we move on.



[Edited by - HARDCOREKNICKSFAN on 10-12-2005 7:44 PM]
Another season, and more adversity to persevere through. We will get the job done, even BETTER than last year. GO KNICKS!
oohah
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10/12/2005  7:51 PM
Good job trying to mock me. profound pain? "I felt weak". Please! Stop patronizing.

Hold on a second there silverfuel. I was not trying to mock you. In fact that is why I prefaced my statement with "Without revealing what it is that caused you profound pain," It that was certainly not written to mock you, it was so you would not think I was making light of the emotional pain you referred to.

If the rest of the statement offended you, I apologize. I do my best to act on an internet forum the same way towards people face to face. Perhaps some of my combativeness from another post bled into our conversation.

***
You are getting way too technical. You saying it has to directly affect so that makes it right? So if someone feels weak because of the mental stress it doesnt count? Please.

I said no such thing, and I don't think I am being too technical. I just pointed out that there is a concrete difference between physical and emotional pain. Killa4luv illustrated my point much better than I did.

I'll bet if Houston said: "I can't play beause my heart is broken." you would not be arguing this point.
He refused surgery on those knee problems.

So?
How do you know they were more severe?

Because they have effectively ended Houston's career. Ewing's didn't until he was nearly 40. Ewing's real knee problems were in his early career.
Oh yea thats right, it has to DIRECTLY APPLY or it doesnt count.


Are you trying to say Houston is a warrior like Ewing was?

Oh no you don't...Trying to get me to compare a pretty good player (Houston) to one of the best players in the history of the game(Ewing)? Not Likely.

oohah






[Edited by - oohah on 10-12-2005 9:19 PM]
Good luck Mike D'Antoni, 'cause you ain't never seen nothing like this before!
teslawlo
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10/12/2005  9:15 PM
Posted by Bippity10:

Yeah I don't understand that. Allan was one of those guys that just played, never complained, never told people about his nicks and bruises. He just played, and never missed games. Give the guy some props, like him or not. Well maybe if he flexed after dunks and told people how he needed more money to feed his kids people would think he was tougher.

Well said bippity. Personally I think he lost several years of his career by trying to save don chaney's job. When he was forced to do more than he could as the "franchise" player for a few years, that just added 10 years on his knees. I still don't think he will ever get as much respect as someone more animated or emotional, say, sprewell. Bash his game. Bash his contract. But don't say he didn't try. There are plenty who would've retired by now, and houston isn't trying to come back for any old reason. There are guards aplenty ahead of him, he has virtually no minutes guaranteed, and it seems like most NY fans think he's a ***** who is afraid to step back on the court. Let me tell you something, watching him play in the few games he tried to come back, it was OBVIOUS he had no mobility or ability to move. Someone threw a cross court pass at his feet and he couldn't even stoop or move sideways to catch it. You don't solve that by trying harder. I actually think patience is the key here. He should make a last attempt and that's that. But he should only start it when he feel he is ready. No one should be pushing him. At this point, he's not even expected to contribute anything anyways. So why rush it.
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Bippity10
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10/13/2005  10:46 AM
Posted by HARDCOREKNICKSFAN:
Posted by Bippity10:

Well maybe if he flexed after dunks and told people how he needed more money to feed his kids people would think he was tougher.

What's "tough" is having to hear about Allan's on-again, off-again story for the third year in a row. He earned his props some time ago, but it's time that we move on.



[Edited by - HARDCOREKNICKSFAN on 10-12-2005 7:44 PM]


I can understand and respect that but is that Houston's fault it is the media's fault(not really a fault they are just looking for something to write about). Houston is just doing what any of us would be doing. He is trying to prolong his career. Why knock the guy for that. Should the guy just retire because the fans are tired of reading the stories? The guy still wants to play and I have no problem with him trying to make a come back and don't understand why he is getting abuse for that.

I personally don't expect him back. I will wait and see and don't really care what the papers say about where he stands right now. The guy played hard for us and never missed a game. He has major knee surgery and now is having trouble making it back. I hated his game and will bash him for not driving to the hoop or rebounding because he didn't do those things. But knocking a guy that played every night for not being tough is in my opinion a biased view(brought on mainly by his contract and has nothing to do with reality)


[Edited by - bippity10 on 10-13-2005 10:49 AM]
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Bippity10
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10/13/2005  10:51 AM
If Houston can't play it doesn't kill us, but if the guy some how makes it back it can only help this team. So why are people rooting against him? Did he kill someone and I just missed the article in the paper?

[Edited by - bippity10 on 10-13-2005 10:53 AM]
I just hope that people will like me
boomann
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10/13/2005  11:15 AM
Bash his contract

Don't bash the contract bash the dude that made him the 100 million dollar man.
"We need another shot blocker and we need more girth in the middle, once that happens we have a chance to be a pretty decent team" Isiah on draft night
Bippity10
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10/13/2005  11:17 AM
Posted by boomann:
Bash his contract

Don't bash the contract bash the dude that made him the 100 million dollar man.

Amen brother.


I just hope that people will like me
Silverfuel
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10/13/2005  1:33 PM
I really didnt want to argue about this anymore but I got sucked in. Hopefully this will be the last on this thread from me.
Posted by oohah:

I'll bet if Houston said: "I can't play beause my heart is broken." you would not be arguing this point.
No! I am arguing that its unfair to say, "Maybe Patrick didn't hurt as much as alan?" Takes a lot of credit away from Ewing, who played his last run with the knees hurting half the time.
He refused surgery on those knee problems.
So?
SO? He thought rehab was better when doctors told him surgery was required? If he were in terrible pain, he would have chosed surgery like you chose surgery.
Because they have effectively ended Houston's career.
Doctors said surgery would help and save his career.
Read that sentence in context, it will make sense.

Oh no you don't...Trying to get me to compare a pretty good player (Houston) to one of the best players in the history of the game(Ewing)? Not Likely.
oohah
[Edited by - oohah on 10-12-2005 9:19 PM]
Well nalod did and I was responding to that.

[Edited by - Silverfuel on 10-13-2005 1:40 PM]
A journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step.
Allanfan20
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10/13/2005  2:53 PM
There was not one source that from the Knicks or any doctors, saying that Allan should get surgery, FYI. It was all opinions and stuff by the Knick beat writers. You know nothing what the doctors are really telling Allan. Tell me Silverfeul. What kind of surgery do you think Allan should get? He already had MICROFRACTURE knee surgery. Any other surgery, and his career is prolly over on the spot, if anything.
“Whenever I’m about to do something, I think ‘Would an idiot do that?’ and if they would, I do NOT do that thing.”- Dwight Schrute
oohah
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10/13/2005  7:52 PM
No! I am arguing that its unfair to say, "Maybe Patrick didn't hurt as much as alan?" Takes a lot of credit away from Ewing, who played his last run with the knees hurting half the time.

I didn't make the statement about relative pain, but, I do think it is fair to say that Allan's injuries are worse. AH simply couldn't come back from them, Patrick was able to. I don't see what PE has to do with AH anyway.
Read that sentence in context, it will make sense.

Nope.
There was not one source that from the Knicks or any doctors, saying that Allan should get surgery, FYI. It was all opinions and stuff by the Knick beat writers. You know nothing what the doctors are really telling Allan. Tell me Silverfeul. What kind of surgery do you think Allan should get? He already had MICROFRACTURE knee surgery. Any other surgery, and his career is prolly over on the spot, if anything.

I agree with silverfuel that AH should have at least considered another surgery. He may have had two procedures available to him, "Autologous Chondrocyte Implantation" (check www.carticel.com) or what I am having done, a "Meniscal Allograft Transplantation" (meniscus transplant). These procedures may have tacked some time onto his career, but I think AH is not into surgery and doesn't believe in it that much. He may end up undergoing these or similar procedure eventually, but it is probably too late to save his NBA career.

oohah

Good luck Mike D'Antoni, 'cause you ain't never seen nothing like this before!
Allanfan20
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10/13/2005  8:06 PM
So why didn't Chris Webber, Penny Hardaway, and most notably, Jamal Mashburn not get it then?
“Whenever I’m about to do something, I think ‘Would an idiot do that?’ and if they would, I do NOT do that thing.”- Dwight Schrute
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