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Isiah Thomas - Extreme Knicks Makeover
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rojasmas
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10/5/2005  10:53 PM
I don't know. I thought before the trade we were about a 45 win team at best. I still think we are about a 45 win team, even if Curry is healthy.
We could be the Dallas Mavs of the East.
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Masterplan
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10/5/2005  11:07 PM
OK, but getting Curry fills our biggest need- an inside presence.

Hardcore, what about defense, chemistry, rebounding? i would have put those ahead of "an inside presence" in the curry mold of a one-dimensional offensive threat. an inside presence like ben wallace, or dalembert, or camby, or ewing on the fountain of youth would be "filling our biggest need." points are points, layups are two points whether they're scored by a 6'11 baby shaq or 5'7 nate robinson. i'm all about the D.
Bonn1997
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10/5/2005  11:13 PM
If Curry's healthy, Larry Brown will force him to either sit or play hard on defense. We know he has the physical skills to dominate in all aspects of the game on both offense and defense.
HARDCOREKNICKSFAN
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10/6/2005  12:08 AM
Posted by codeunknown:
Posted by HARDCOREKNICKSFAN:
Posted by codeunknown:


LOL I can care less who agrees with me, I make my point regardless. I see you're relatively new, so I figured you may not have figured that out about me yet. Now, once again, I will state for you that those who mimic the silly beat writers are who I am talking about. Hopefully now we are clear on this, as I've already mentioned my dislike for senseless repetition.

But, the issue is that you have somewhat senselessly repeated your mantra about beat writers (instead of your reasoning in support of the Curry deal). In terms of making your point, everyone on this site does that. That is expected.

No. The issue is that those are two different topics. The bias against the Knicks from some of these writers has been a discussed topic for some time. Stop getting it twisted as if I started every thread regarding that topic. I am going to vioce my disagreement with that if I so choose, as we all do. Label that however you like- whatever makes you feel good.

You're tripping, fella. See the first line in my response above. Since it's obvious you're not talking about me, maybe you'd be better off directing that comment towards someone it applies to. If I wasn't talking to you directly when I allegedly made whatever comment, then it's ill-advised to make those acusations.

It was ill-advised for you to generalize when making your comment about our fellow "blind" posters.

I made a valid point that you obviously have a problem with. I stand by that point and will continue to.


And you seemed to have taken it personally when I called your attention to the fact that the detractors from the Curry deal were making legitimate arguments.

You are so way off on that one, I won't dignify it with a response. Re-read the thread. I haven't the time to go in circles with you.

Fella, you can group whatever, wherever you want, I wouldn't give a damn. Those who have known me over the several years I have participated here know my alignments, so technically, the misplaced assumptions of any given newbie, or any poster at all for that matter, doesn't phase anything over here.

Whether you give a damn is an irrelevant point. Unless you're overly sensitive, I don't expect you to cry over the Curry deal (although it might be justified). Still, its not in the interest of conversation to pigeon-hole anyone's views. And we come here for conversation about the Knicks, right?

Sounds great. Then you should also understand that no one is crying about the Curry deal, in fact, I am feeling overjoyed about it! That's why I am not in the least bit bothered by your little attempt to nitpick while having the topics crossed. I'm not ging to repeat this again, so if you want to rehash it, then scroll up and re-read my responses. Now maybe we can talk ball.


I don't see Curry slowing us down to that extent. I really don't think that he'll slow us down at all.

Why not? Curry isn't known for his foot speed.

Oh come on. Stop acting like the man can't run.



Who's to say that those teams will stay intact through those 3 years? That goes for players and management. The NBA won't be caught in a time warp for the next three years. Things will change, and I am sticking to the belief that The Knicks will be in the mix.

Whats worse is that these teams will likely get better as they are in better financial position. A time warp would be in our benefit.

"Likely" still means you don't know. No one knows what moves those teams or ours will make, that will help or hurt them in the next few years. Also, after what Isiah Thomas has done for this team since he's been here, why would Knicks fans want a time warp? I don't know about you, but I want to see this team make progress. I damn sure like what I am seeing so far, too.


Another season, and more adversity to persevere through. We will get the job done, even BETTER than last year. GO KNICKS!
HARDCOREKNICKSFAN
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10/6/2005  12:35 AM
Posted by Masterplan:
OK, but getting Curry fills our biggest need- an inside presence.

Hardcore, what about defense, chemistry, rebounding? i would have put those ahead of "an inside presence" in the curry mold of a one-dimensional offensive threat. an inside presence like ben wallace, or dalembert, or camby, or ewing on the fountain of youth would be "filling our biggest need." points are points, layups are two points whether they're scored by a 6'11 baby shaq or 5'7 nate robinson. i'm all about the D.

IMO Larry Brown and the coaching staff are going to make sure Curry improves in his D and boards. When I said "Inside presence" I didn't limit that by stating offensive, you assumed I did. We also need someone who can help stop the red carpet treatment in the paint for opposing teams (like last season, remember?). The guy can block a shot or two. Doesn't Curry deserve to benefit from exposure to Larry Brown's teachings, like Dalembert and Ben Wallace did? Eddy Curry is in good hands. Until I see a major problem on the court when the season (or preseason) starts, I'm confident that Eddy Curry will be ready to bring the balanced game both you and I are hoping to see from him this year.


Another season, and more adversity to persevere through. We will get the job done, even BETTER than last year. GO KNICKS!
Masterplan
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10/6/2005  1:12 AM
When I said "Inside presence" I didn't limit that by stating offensive, you assumed I did. We also need someone who can help stop the red carpet treatment in the paint for opposing teams (like last season, remember?).

no assumptions. you were talking about curry as an inside presence, and he has shown himself to be painfully one-dimensional. i do hope he benefits from LB. but i wouldn't give a guy that kind of money hoping he picks up those lessons. and i do remember last season, that's why i'm harping on defense so much.

the difference between eddy curry and big ben or sam is that he hasn't shown the willingness to do anything with his game yet. everything i've heard about him leads me to believe he's self-centered, lazy, all around lame attitude. i hope he proves me wrong. but with $60 mil filling our cap i would want a safer bet than him.
HARDCOREKNICKSFAN
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10/6/2005  1:36 AM
Posted by Masterplan:
When I said "Inside presence" I didn't limit that by stating offensive, you assumed I did. We also need someone who can help stop the red carpet treatment in the paint for opposing teams (like last season, remember?).

no assumptions. you were talking about curry as an inside presence, and he has shown himself to be painfully one-dimensional. i do hope he benefits from LB. but i wouldn't give a guy that kind of money hoping he picks up those lessons. and i do remember last season, that's why i'm harping on defense so much.

the difference between eddy curry and big ben or sam is that he hasn't shown the willingness to do anything with his game yet. everything i've heard about him leads me to believe he's self-centered, lazy, all around lame attitude. i hope he proves me wrong. but with $60 mil filling our cap i would want a safer bet than him.

I understand where you're coming from, and I agree that Eddy needs direction. That's the best thing about having Larry Brown as coach- he teaches the balanced game. Players like Eddy, Stephon and Jamal will especially benefit from Brown's philosophy where "if you don't dee up, you don't get up". The good results will show in our W/L record.

As far as the deal, what available player is worth that kind of money, besides Curry? What "safer bets" would you have suggested?
Another season, and more adversity to persevere through. We will get the job done, even BETTER than last year. GO KNICKS!
codeunknown
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10/6/2005  4:45 AM
Posted by HARDCOREKNICKSFAN:



No. The issue is that those are two different topics. The bias against the Knicks from some of these writers has been a discussed topic for some time. Stop getting it twisted as if I started every thread regarding that topic. I am going to vioce my disagreement with that if I so choose, as we all do. Label that however you like- whatever makes you feel good.

Ok I'll label that a smokescreen. Your initial statement was crap. We were talking about Curry and you talked about blind posters. And I'll stand by that.

I made a valid point that you obviously have a problem with. I stand by that point and will continue to.

There was no point made there. And whatever was said was irrelevant to the Curry discussion. What are you so proudly standing by? That some fools somewhere accept Bermans' articles at face value? I still don't understand why 1) that needs to be said and 2) how it relates to the vast majority of posters here. I hope we can agree that most of the posters here are intelligent.

You are so way off on that one, I won't dignify it with a response. Re-read the thread. I haven't the time to go in circles with you.

Hardcore, you're going in circles with yourself. Which, in many ways, is even more impressive. Don't even re-read the thread. Just re-read the initial post that I responded to. Look at the context. Tell me you weren't implying something.

Sounds great. Then you should also understand that no one is crying about the Curry deal, in fact, I am feeling overjoyed about it! That's why I am not in the least bit bothered by your little attempt to nitpick while having the topics crossed. I'm not ging to repeat this again, so if you want to rehash it, then scroll up and re-read my responses. Now maybe we can talk ball.

You crossed the topics. I pointed it out. You got upset.

Oh come on. Stop acting like the man can't run.

At what speed? And for how long?

"Likely" still means you don't know. No one knows what moves those teams or ours will make, that will help or hurt them in the next few years. Also, after what Isiah Thomas has done for this team since he's been here, why would Knicks fans want a time warp? I don't know about you, but I want to see this team make progress. I damn sure like what I am seeing so far, too.

"Likely" is as important a term as you'll ever hear in business. And the odds are stacked against us - I'm not sure how you can argue with that. Why do you like our position relative to the Eastern Conference? What are the odds Curry is our franchise player? How long does Marbury have? How long will Brown be with us? What is the plan to accrue more assets?
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[Edited by - codeunknown on 10-06-2005 04:46 AM]
Sh-t in the popcorn to go with sh-t on the court. Its a theme show like Medieval times.
Allanfan20
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10/6/2005  7:13 AM
We got Eddie Curry for very cheap, considering that other centers (Some who are worse than Curry) are getting so much more, so it's really not that bad. But if Eddie can get his head out of his ars (Exactly where he had it in Chicago a lot) and stay healthy, then it'sa hell of a deal for us. But I think a key just as big as his health is getting his head out of his ass. We can't have our 6'11" center average 5 rebounds per game.
“Whenever I’m about to do something, I think ‘Would an idiot do that?’ and if they would, I do NOT do that thing.”- Dwight Schrute
franco12
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10/6/2005  8:10 AM
even if Eddy develops some intensity on the defensive end, and starts to rebound like someone 6'11", this extreme roster makeover is still an experiment of sorts- yes, talent is upgraded individually accross the board, its a younger team- none of that transletes necessarialy into better.

Chemistry is the key word, and style of play. both must develop. and some players obviously need to step up and develop.
Silverfuel
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10/6/2005  9:14 AM
Eddy Curry will help this team a whole lot. His offense in the paint will open up a lot of lanes and give Q and Craw some nice open looks. I am really looking forward to this season. I am optimistic about the 05-06 Knicks and I am sick of all these stupid sports writers that only write articles to sell papers or because they hate Isiah. They are really predictable.
A journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step.
HARDCOREKNICKSFAN
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10/6/2005  10:29 AM
Posted by codeunknown:
Posted by HARDCOREKNICKSFAN:

No. The issue is that those are two different topics. The bias against the Knicks from some of these writers has been a discussed topic for some time. Stop getting it twisted as if I started every thread regarding that topic. I am going to vioce my disagreement with that if I so choose, as we all do. Label that however you like- whatever makes you feel good.

Ok I'll label that a smokescreen. Your initial statement was crap. We were talking about Curry and you talked about blind posters. And I'll stand by that.

Glad to see you humor yourself with the labels. You didn't address my statement, rendering that response of yours as irrelevant. I'll let you sort that out for yourself, since you're still going in the same circle we started off with.


I made a valid point that you obviously have a problem with. I stand by that point and will continue to.

There was no point made there. And whatever was said was irrelevant to the Curry discussion. What are you so proudly standing by? That some fools somewhere accept Bermans' articles at face value? I still don't understand why 1) that needs to be said and 2) how it relates to the vast majority of posters here. I hope we can agree that most of the posters here are intelligent.

Again, you're not following what I'm saying, but don't try to put words in my mouth. It's obvious that you have an issue with my having made that statement about posters mimicking the biased media twice on this board. LOL no need to be stuck on stupid about it. Did I mention Berman? Fella, you're taking that ride by yourself.

You are so way off on that one, I won't dignify it with a response. Re-read the thread. I haven't the time to go in circles with you.

Hardcore, you're going in circles with yourself. Which, in many ways, is even more impressive. Don't even re-read the thread. Just re-read the initial post that I responded to. Look at the context. Tell me you weren't implying something.

This banter is boring. Implying what? I have no problems stating my points outright, and haven't the need to "imply" anything. Hilarious.



Sounds great. Then you should also understand that no one is crying about the Curry deal, in fact, I am feeling overjoyed about it! That's why I am not in the least bit bothered by your little attempt to nitpick while having the topics crossed. I'm not ging to repeat this again, so if you want to rehash it, then scroll up and re-read my responses. Now maybe we can talk ball.

You crossed the topics. I pointed it out. You got upset.
Now it's getting boring and silly.

Oh come on. Stop acting like the man can't run.

At what speed? And for how long?
LMAO

"Likely" still means you don't know. No one knows what moves those teams or ours will make, that will help or hurt them in the next few years. Also, after what Isiah Thomas has done for this team since he's been here, why would Knicks fans want a time warp? I don't know about you, but I want to see this team make progress. I damn sure like what I am seeing so far, too.

"Likely" is as important a term as you'll ever hear in business. And the odds are stacked against us - I'm not sure how you can argue with that.
Since you're so convinced that the odds are stacked against us, then why root for the Knicks at all?

Why do you like our position relative to the Eastern Conference?
Because our roster and coach hasn't been this good in many years. I feel that only Indy, Miami and Detroit are in our way in the East.

What are the odds Curry is our franchise player? How long does Marbury have? How long will Brown be with us? What is the plan to accrue more assets?
Open a thread and ask everyone those questions. Better yet, post in some other thread besides this one.
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Another season, and more adversity to persevere through. We will get the job done, even BETTER than last year. GO KNICKS!
HARDCOREKNICKSFAN
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10/6/2005  10:44 AM
Posted by Silverfuel:

Eddy Curry will help this team a whole lot. His offense in the paint will open up a lot of lanes and give Q and Craw some nice open looks. I am really looking forward to this season. I am optimistic about the 05-06 Knicks and I am sick of all these stupid sports writers that only write articles to sell papers or because they hate Isiah. They are really predictable.

Tell it, Silver! Isiah will have them all eating crow sooner than later.

When was the last time we looked this good? How many years ago was it that we were saying that we wouldn't get another inside presence until after we were under the cap again? Haha, I am glad that doomsday prediction was wrong.

Thank God preseason starts in little more than a week! I am ready for some games!




[Edited by - HARDCOREKNICKSFAN on 10-06-2005 10:44 AM]
Another season, and more adversity to persevere through. We will get the job done, even BETTER than last year. GO KNICKS!
Silverfuel
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10/6/2005  11:04 AM
Posted by HARDCOREKNICKSFAN:

When was the last time we looked this good? How many years ago was it that we were saying that we wouldn't get another inside presence until after we were under the cap again?
Agreed. I cannot expect our team to win a championship in 2.5 years of Isiah taking over. What I have seen is enough to make me think positively. I dont understand why anyone has a problem with Eddy Curry. Why should I think he wont be a good defender with Larry Brown coaching him? Everything that has happened so far this summer has been positive. Q is an upgrade over Craw and Curry is an upgrade over Nazr. Oh wait, Larry Brown is an upgrade over any coach we have had in the last 6 years.

I think the media is biased. I just want the facts. I want to know who is over weight, who is injured and who is practicing hard. Give me that facts I will think for myself. I dont want Isola and Berman doing the thinking for me!
A journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step.
Allanfan20
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10/6/2005  11:17 AM
Posted by franco12:

even if Eddy develops some intensity on the defensive end, and starts to rebound like someone 6'11", this extreme roster makeover is still an experiment of sorts- yes, talent is upgraded individually accross the board, its a younger team- none of that transletes necessarialy into better.

Chemistry is the key word, and style of play. both must develop. and some players obviously need to step up and develop.


I think you pretty much hit it on the head right there. What really needs to happen is that these guys need to learn about eachother and play within' eachothers strengths and not force everything, like how it kinda seemed like last year. And we can't just mix and match lineups for the hell of it. It has to be about who plays well together and all. Start with the slower guys, have the run and gunners sub in. If this works out, then everything will smell like roses in Knickland, but whoever doesn't buy into this, whether it's Steph, Eddie, Jamal, Allan or anyone is probably OUT.
“Whenever I’m about to do something, I think ‘Would an idiot do that?’ and if they would, I do NOT do that thing.”- Dwight Schrute
Nalod
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10/6/2005  11:19 AM
Note to posters. I too found Hardcores bias rants to be utterly redundant and unyielding.

He is slighty paranoid about a media conspiricy against the knicks. I think the media is warped by the mad payroll and has a bias. THey might see thing more objective than some emotionally chareged fans.

Fans come in many shapes and forms, and Mr. Hardcore is in one of the more enthusiastic corners and he likes it there. He's dyed in the wool and jumps in the dye vats and likes it that way. If he wears blinders, its cuz he put them on.

Once, this I took him on based on many of the logical arguments I though warranted a challange . His endurance to maintain his position earned my respect and he WILL get in the last word, and he WILL defend his point almost to the point of exaustion. Im not saying his defemse is as good as he thinks he does, but in the end its just all fun, and most important he rarely will antaganize any one with his enthusiasm toward the team. My conclusion was ulitmatly that this dude is consistant and predictable (thats a compliment) and who says what a good fan is, or what an even better fan would be? In his world, your either a hater, or your not. Nothing wrong with that.

In the end, we really mostly all agree on about 85% of the opinions thrown around and mostly have a pleasent banter about things. I myself are one of the few offenders, but thats my cross to bear. I like a good humored joust once in a while.

'Core is typical of many fans in many sports who is territorial about his city, and the knicks are property of not cablevision, but belongs to the CITY!
Marv
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10/6/2005  11:21 AM
Posted by Silverfuel:
Posted by HARDCOREKNICKSFAN:

When was the last time we looked this good? How many years ago was it that we were saying that we wouldn't get another inside presence until after we were under the cap again?
Agreed. I cannot expect our team to win a championship in 2.5 years of Isiah taking over. What I have seen is enough to make me think positively. I dont understand why anyone has a problem with Eddy Curry. Why should I think he wont be a good defender with Larry Brown coaching him? Everything that has happened so far this summer has been positive. Q is an upgrade over Craw and Curry is an upgrade over Nazr. Oh wait, Larry Brown is an upgrade over any coach we have had in the last 6 years.

I think the media is biased. I just want the facts. I want to know who is over weight, who is injured and who is practicing hard. Give me that facts I will think for myself. I dont want Isola and Berman doing the thinking for me!

ABouit LB and D - i don't think he can make everyone a good defensive player. I don't recall Eldon Campbell or Corlis WIlliamson showing much D. I didn't see anything out of Darko the 2 years that LB had to teach him D every day.

Curry played for Scott Skiles. He's a pretty good defensive-minded coach. No D out of him there.

ALso, re: the papers and articles - personally, i blow off most articles. There's hardly any substance. EIther that or a quick skim. but i put up a big filter and don't react much to them. EXCEPT CHAD!!


Allanfan20
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10/6/2005  11:30 AM
Marv, I've been saying that for quite sometime. Larry Brown can preach defense until the cows come home (First time I used that statement) but in the end, it's still up to the player to make the commitment and have the right attitude.
“Whenever I’m about to do something, I think ‘Would an idiot do that?’ and if they would, I do NOT do that thing.”- Dwight Schrute
Silverfuel
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10/6/2005  11:32 AM
Wow, looks like Core is going to have to defend himself for being optimistic. This is not at shot at anyone but just in general.

Honestly, I prefer his "we will be competing this year" posts, which he backs up, a lot more than "we have too many guards" posts without any solutions.

We have talent, we have depth and we have an amazing coach who usually improves every team he coaches. Whats so wrong with what he is and to some extent what I am saying? I love this makeover. I think we have the talent to compete and we have the coach to help make it hapen.
A journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step.
rvhoss
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10/6/2005  11:32 AM
yeah, the thing about larry was that he still made use of elden campbell and corlis williamson, unlike previous knick coaches who just let malcontents either ride on the bench or play to pump up trade value, LB plays to win games.

If someone isn't defending, he replaces them with a defender...we now have solid defenders at each position for easy situational subbing:
Nate, Ariza, Rose, Lee, and in many ways James and Frye (shot blocking), so while nobody believes marbury will win defensive player of the year, the team defense is what will improve dramatically.

Detroit was better during LB than previously, it's just the fundamentals of the game. Positioning, positioning, positioning.

I suck at basketball (can't hit free throws or dribble or shoot for that matter) but I get boards and play tough defense and my teams usually win.

Then one game a buddy's dad, who was a coach, showed me a place to stand by the back board and suddenly, I was getting rebounds without having to out jump my opponent, which was great when I was exhausted (those 5 on 5 full court adventures are trouble)

So, what I'm saying is that defensive positioning can overcome a lineup of offensive minded players...yeah yeah I know, I'm sure previous coaches preached this, however, none have the authority to actually DNP a star.

LB has that authority and the knicks defense will be remarkedly improved...couple that with the improved offense and you have a winner.

Skiles is a good coach, but is he respected?

Remember when Robert Horry threw a towel in a coaches face (was that skiles or ainge) at the time Horry was considered a loser, now he's got 6 rings.

Not sure why I told that story, but it just goes to show, some coaches are just better than others.

We have the best of all time.

[Edited by - rvhoss on 10-06-2005 11:40 AM]
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