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Caseloads
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8/18/2005  12:33 PM
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/columns/story?columnist=wojnarowski_adrian&id=2136820&num=2

Larry Brown: Larry Brown will make the Knicks a tougher out every night next season, but he won't make them a playoff team. He's good, but in this improving East, he's not that good.

Everyone wants to throw Stephon Marbury on trial with Brown's arrival, but I worry less about the self-proclaimed best point guard in the league's ability to be selfless than I do about Brown's. Count on Brown to be especially drunk with power and ambition, given the way New York treated his arrival like that of a conquering hero, and the way ownership made him the highest-paid coach in sports history.

Just how long will it take for Brown to use his press row flunky friends to turn on Thomas, blaming the man who brought Brown to his "dream job" for a flawed, troublesome roster? How long until Brown is ultimately trying to usurp control on player personnel? Brown is the classic "I coached great, someone played/drafted/traded lousy" leader, maybe the most Machiavellian character this sport's ever seen.

Even so, he'll make the Knicks -- one of the league's softest, most unprepared teams since the departure of Jeff Van Gundy -- accountable again.

AUTOADVERT
LongIslandKnicksFan
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8/18/2005  12:39 PM
From a pessemistic and negative aspect, he hit the nail on the head. I'd say I am both in the middle of being optomistiic and pessemistic. I still think the Knicks have a long way to go, and with Isiah and Dolan sugarcoating Brown and making this into a big frenzy is ridiculous. Brown is a great coach, but needs the right players.
franco12
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8/18/2005  12:47 PM
was that ESPN or Soap Digest!

Please, I've seen more intelligent posts here on this site than the dribel paid people get to write!
islesfan
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8/18/2005  12:53 PM
Just how long will it take for Brown to use his press row flunky friends to turn on Thomas, blaming the man who brought Brown to his "dream job" for a flawed, troublesome roster? How long until Brown is ultimately trying to usurp control on player personnel? Brown is the classic "I coached great, someone played/drafted/traded lousy" leader, maybe the most Machiavellian character this sport's ever seen.

Hopefully it's already happening. This is one of the reasons why I was pretty happy that Dolan got Brown.
If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
Caseloads
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8/18/2005  12:54 PM
Posted by islesfan:
Just how long will it take for Brown to use his press row flunky friends to turn on Thomas, blaming the man who brought Brown to his "dream job" for a flawed, troublesome roster? How long until Brown is ultimately trying to usurp control on player personnel? Brown is the classic "I coached great, someone played/drafted/traded lousy" leader, maybe the most Machiavellian character this sport's ever seen.

Hopefully it's already happening. This is one of the reasons why I was pretty happy that Dolan got Brown.
this is all BS drama. let the games begin!
islesfan
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8/18/2005  1:02 PM
Posted by Caseloads:
Posted by islesfan:
Just how long will it take for Brown to use his press row flunky friends to turn on Thomas, blaming the man who brought Brown to his "dream job" for a flawed, troublesome roster? How long until Brown is ultimately trying to usurp control on player personnel? Brown is the classic "I coached great, someone played/drafted/traded lousy" leader, maybe the most Machiavellian character this sport's ever seen.

Hopefully it's already happening. This is one of the reasons why I was pretty happy that Dolan got Brown.
this is all BS drama. let the games begin!

If you go by Brown's history, and Brown and Isiah's personalities it's not hard to see conflict between them as they both look to be the face of this franchise. Let the power struggle begin!!
If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
Masterplan
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8/18/2005  1:11 PM
first of all, the writing in that article was really crappy overall. a lot of it didn't make sense and was not well thought out. mostly, though, what p issed me off was how he sugarcoats everything that other EC teams have done, but when it comes to the knicks, its only expectations of conflict between IT and LB, ignoring any personnel moves we made. "LB will make us tougher but not a playoff team"? isn't that why we traded for shooting and size and had one of the best drafts in the league? no, let's just focus on the hype and drama of the three big personalities in the franchise, IT LB and marbury.
Caseloads
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8/18/2005  1:19 PM
Posted by Masterplan:

first of all, the writing in that article was really crappy overall. a lot of it didn't make sense and was not well thought out. mostly, though, what p issed me off was how he sugarcoats everything that other EC teams have done, but when it comes to the knicks, its only expectations of conflict between IT and LB, ignoring any personnel moves we made. "LB will make us tougher but not a playoff team"? isn't that why we traded for shooting and size and had one of the best drafts in the league? no, let's just focus on the hype and drama of the three big personalities in the franchise, IT LB and marbury.

the sad thing is how those three go is how the knicks go. so those are the ones to focus on. IT draws attention. LB draws attention. Bill Davidson, owner of the Pistons was right, the focus should be on the team and the games, not the coach's drama.
fishmike
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8/18/2005  1:24 PM
everyone should doubt us. We are a 33 win team with a new coach and new players, none of which are established stars. For every positive we have like 3 question marks.

Either we will play well or we wont. This year doesnt matter, what we need to do is establish a style of play and attitude like the Grizz did after Hubie first took over. They didnt win many more games but their young players learned how to play D in the NBA and the next year they won 50 games.

Thats what we need. PLEASE, for the love of god, play Frye and Lee and especially NAte (alot). Play Crawford at PG where he can become a star, feature Sweetney and Q in the post, push the ball for Ariza, Nate and Frye in transition, and above all play SMART D.

THATS whats important. I dont care if we win 25 games. All the better to have a shot at Rudy Gay or the Italian kid, but even if we only won 25-30 games I think we could win 50 the next year. Sometimes it just takes patience. Look at Det 32-50 to 50-32, or Memphis as I just mentioned.
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
Nalod
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8/18/2005  1:25 PM
That article is crap!

Brown took the money and ego thing but with is eyes wide open!

Him and Isiah can at least check each other from trading TOO excessively!

Brown said it would be awful at first, and not to contend for three years. Does it buy time, Yeah, he needs it! Does he blame Isiah for a flawed roster? he can, but it was already flawed when he took the job!

We posters can be expected to write crap, but we are not paid writers.

That kinda of speculation is more sensational than any content.

At this point, I think Larrys contract runs longer than Isiahs, so in about a year Isiah might make some crazy salary demand and Dolan may refuse him. Isiah might use it to jump into a different situation anyway. He has no loyalty to us.

My scenario is possible, and its crap. But at least its got some legs on it!
simrud
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8/18/2005  2:52 PM
ESPN sucks, their editorials are generally worthless.
A glimmer of hope maybe?!?
bobs3304
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8/18/2005  3:12 PM
Na, he's right. Larry is a great addition, but so would Van Gundy, or Pops, or Riley, or a few other coaches. Point is, it makes us relevant again, but it doesn't necessarily makes us contenders by any means.

I'm gonna drink some Kool-Aid here for a second (this is a 1st for me). Here goes:

Let's say, for arguements sake, that Jerome gives us 12, 8, and 2 next year. And Q gives us 15 and 6, and Crawford give us 14 and 5(assts.), and Marbury gives us 18 and 9. Hell, maybe Timmy gives us 13 and 5 boards.

Well, that's the bulk of our offense, and that only adds up to around 75 points. If we're to be an offensive juggernaut, our bench will have to fugazy and give us something like 25 points.....which isn't happening. So that means we'll have to rely on a good amount of defense to win games. Only problem is, despite Larry being able to instill SOME defensive scheme, we don't really have ANY defensive stoppers. Personally, Kool-Aid's just not enough to make me believe that the roster as it is now can undoubtedly make the playoffs...
DLee is the best thing to happen to NY in Isiah's 4 year tenure. And that alone, though a positive on the radar, is sad as hell.
Ira
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8/18/2005  3:24 PM
Getting Brown certainly doesn't make us contenders, but it makes us better. Also, while we may not have the greatest roster, we do have a number of tradeable players - not two or three decent players getting up in age as we did when Isaiah arrived. Building a contender isn't easy, but I give Isaiah a lot of credit for the progress he's made.
bobs3304
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8/18/2005  3:30 PM
^ What tradeable players?

Crawford isn't exactly "tradeable". Drew Gooden....he's tradeable. Nene....he's tradeable. Crawford's making something like 40 Mill in the next 5 years. Q - almost the same.

The only tradeable pieces we have are Ariza, Sweetney, and the rookies, and even then, we shouldn't be trading them...
DLee is the best thing to happen to NY in Isiah's 4 year tenure. And that alone, though a positive on the radar, is sad as hell.
nixluva
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8/18/2005  3:40 PM
Posted by bobs3304:

Na, he's right. Larry is a great addition, but so would Van Gundy, or Pops, or Riley, or a few other coaches. Point is, it makes us relevant again, but it doesn't necessarily makes us contenders by any means.

I'm gonna drink some Kool-Aid here for a second (this is a 1st for me). Here goes:

Let's say, for arguements sake, that Jerome gives us 12, 8, and 2 next year. And Q gives us 15 and 6, and Crawford give us 14 and 5(assts.), and Marbury gives us 18 and 9. Hell, maybe Timmy gives us 13 and 5 boards.

Well, that's the bulk of our offense, and that only adds up to around 75 points. If we're to be an offensive juggernaut, our bench will have to fugazy and give us something like 25 points.....which isn't happening. So that means we'll have to rely on a good amount of defense to win games. Only problem is, despite Larry being able to instill SOME defensive scheme, we don't really have ANY defensive stoppers. Personally, Kool-Aid's just not enough to make me believe that the roster as it is now can undoubtedly make the playoffs...

1st of all you left out Sweetney who will have a key role this year. We don't have to be a GREAT defensive team, just a good one. Just being able to show up on the defensive end every night would be a huge plus for us. We can actually put on the floor a defensive unit that can give us a lift for stretches of the game and if we at least keep teams from shooting ridiculously high %, then we'll be alright.

Remember this team doesn't have scoring problems. We were 14 in the league in scoring and 12th in FG%. That was last year with no H2O, TT being a no show for much of the year, the injuries that messed up our flow, coaching change and being weak at center.
We have added a considerable amount of talent to the team and fixed some of our balance problems. This team makes more sense now than it did last year. We're 2 deep at every position. I expect this team to be more efficient at scoring not worse.
LB has meant 10 or more wins to the bad teams he's gone to, so he's more than just an OK coach in terms of having a positive effect on his teams.

The freakin LA CLippers had a LOSING record when he took over mid season, they ended up with a winning record and making the playoffs. That's some great coaching there. I think that LB and IT are just being conservative in their expectations for the season. I don't think either of them really thinks it will take as long as they make it sound for this team to get better. Don't forget that this team lost 22 games by 6 or less points last year. Its doubtful that will happen again.
Ira
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8/18/2005  3:45 PM
Posted by bobs3304:

^ What tradeable players?

Crawford isn't exactly "tradeable". Drew Gooden....he's tradeable. Nene....he's tradeable. Crawford's making something like 40 Mill in the next 5 years. Q - almost the same.

The only tradeable pieces we have are Ariza, Sweetney, and the rookies, and even then, we shouldn't be trading them...

While teams aren't lining up to get Craw or Q, both of those contracts are much better deals than the ones that we gave out in the past - Houston, Ward, Anderson, Eisley, etc. I think both of those contracts will be tradeable.
bobs3304
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8/18/2005  3:46 PM
All my point was that we shouldn't be content with the bare minimum. I think some guys are happy enough with the additions we've made. For me, the playoffs are an IMMEDIATE goal, not a longterm one. Another move or two should be made, plain and simple...
DLee is the best thing to happen to NY in Isiah's 4 year tenure. And that alone, though a positive on the radar, is sad as hell.
nixluva
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8/18/2005  4:45 PM
I dont see the need to rush and make a move at this point. Lets see what this team can do. I think we are judging this team too much on the failure of last year. It was a bad year, but a bit of a fluke in that we didn't expect that H2O wouldn't be able to get back to a decent level. I don't think we expected TT to be great, but certainly we thought he would at least have a good season on par with his career. It was just a weird season.

This year we really don't have the same problems we did last year. We've got some questions, but we do know that we have a deep team and all of the players we have are capable.

Think of it this way. This year our bench has players coming in who can explode at any moment. We're more athletic than last year and we're bigger than we were last year. Like last year the draft picks we have will be able to contribute right away. I just don't see all this doom and gloom that some of you see. This looks like a playoff team to me. If they thought the Knicks were a playoff team last year, we should easily be one this year.

Philly, Wash & Chicago, teams we played hard against last year aren't significantly better. so why shouldn't we be just as capable of making the playoffs as any of those teams, since we are FAR better this year.
bobs3304
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8/18/2005  4:55 PM
^ I guess some Knick fans are just easily pleased...


That's what happens when smooth-talkin Zeke puts his trance on you.
DLee is the best thing to happen to NY in Isiah's 4 year tenure. And that alone, though a positive on the radar, is sad as hell.
JUNKMEIN
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8/18/2005  6:35 PM
Posted by islesfan:
Posted by Caseloads:
Posted by islesfan:
Just how long will it take for Brown to use his press row flunky friends to turn on Thomas, blaming the man who brought Brown to his "dream job" for a flawed, troublesome roster? How long until Brown is ultimately trying to usurp control on player personnel? Brown is the classic "I coached great, someone played/drafted/traded lousy" leader, maybe the most Machiavellian character this sport's ever seen.

Hopefully it's already happening. This is one of the reasons why I was pretty happy that Dolan got Brown.

this is all BS drama. let the games begin!

If you go by Brown's history, and Brown and Isiah's personalities it's not hard to see conflict between them as they both look to be the face of this franchise. Let the power struggle begin!!

There you go Isles...you've made it plan and clear for me. I can at the very least appreciate the honesty you place in your feelings about this entire process. Now, correct me if my conclusions are wrong here....but you're all for the Knicks...you just can't stand the ground Isiah walks on...right? Say for instance, if a bus were to run him over..you wouldn't shed a tear..wouldya? Consistent, i'll give you that.

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