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My Plan for Larry and Isiah
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Nalod
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7/29/2005  12:05 PM

I'll stick my neck our hear and suggest that we clean this muther up by allowing the expireing contracts to die off the vine, play my youth big time and not care about wins and losses just yet. Collect one, perhaps two lottery picks, and clean house.

Yao, Amare, lebron are free in two years. One of the three could find themselves attracted here.

Any monetary sacrifice by not signing with the home team would more than be made up by endorsement opportunity.

Two years to teach the young players right, and then bring in a finishing piece!

Two years is a long time "larry" years!

What ever Isiahs vision is, larry bought into it. IM not speaking for Isiah (not born with that talent), but this is my wish only.

I guess we will see when its time up for Anfernee and the Gazy man!
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codeunknown
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7/29/2005  12:25 PM
2007 is huge. Big names in both the draft and free agency. That observation is not trivial - if you gut the team for salary and strip the team of a 29 year old Marbury, we are instant contenders for the likes of Lebron and Oden.

That's one move - trading Marbury. And it opens up everything in 2007 for the best talent available. Marbury is an excellent player but if you are interested in the future of the Knicks, you have to make that move.

The endorsement money, as Nalod alluded to, is quite substantial. Im positive Lebron would be interested in an extra 50 mil over 5 years. Wade wouldn't be too shy about it either.

Maybe the best case is Marbury to Atlanta for Al Harrington and their 2007 # 1 unprotected. Atlanta is likely still in the toilet by next season - that equals a high lottery pick + our own (which increases in stock with Marbury's departure). And Harrington is tradeable at the deadline for more picks. Thats a full rebuild but, quite possibly, a fast and successful one.

Sh-t in the popcorn to go with sh-t on the court. Its a theme show like Medieval times.
gunsnewing
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7/29/2005  12:33 PM
Posted by codeunknown:

2007 is huge. Big names in both the draft and free agency. That observation is not trivial - if you gut the team for salary and strip the team of a 29 year old Marbury, we are instant contenders for the likes of Lebron and Oden.

That's one move - trading Marbury. And it opens up everything in 2007 for the best talent available. Marbury is an excellent player but if you are interested in the future of the Knicks, you have to make that move.

The endorsement money, as Nalod alluded to, is quite substantial. Im positive Lebron would be interested in an extra 50 mil over 5 years. Wade wouldn't be too shy about it either.

Maybe the best case is Marbury to Atlanta for Al Harrington and their 2007 # 1 unprotected. Atlanta is likely still in the toilet by next season - that equals a high lottery pick + our own (which increases in stock with Marbury's departure). And Harrington is tradeable at the deadline for more picks. Thats a full rebuild but, quite possibly, a fast and successful one.

well said. I'm a huge proponent of trading Marbury to Atlanta for Harrington and co then going after Lebron, Bosh, Ming and Wade and stocking up on high lottery picks in the meantime and becoming a true championship contender in 3yrs. We have plenty of depth at PG with Nate and Crawford.

[Edited by - gunsnewing on 07/29/2005 12:36:50]
Killa4luv
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7/29/2005  12:42 PM
I am totally against trading Marbury until we can see what Larry Brown can do with him. We have one of the best coaches in the game and one of the best Pg's in the game with some nice complimentary pieces and some good young players. We have to see what Larry can do. The sky is the limit for this team if all of the chips keep falling in place for us.
Nalod
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7/29/2005  12:45 PM
I think under any circumstances Marbs will benefit greatly from getting double teamed by Larry and isiah.

Should we develope a point and other talent that could replace Marbs, and thus be a gatewayto a better player, then we can play that card if it comes up, but trading Marbs now is not going to get us good value, and lets now give this kid every chance to succeed before we even consider.
gunsnewing
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7/29/2005  12:47 PM
Posted by Killa4luv:

I am totally against trading Marbury until we can see what Larry Brown can do with him. We have one of the best coaches in the game and one of the best Pg's in the game with some nice complimentary pieces and some good young players. We have to see what Larry can do. The sky is the limit for this team if all of the chips keep falling in place for us.

but Killa we need more than nice complimentary pieces. Detroit had Ben & Rasheed. In order for us to get those kind of players we have to rid ourselves of Marbury's contract, stockpile lottery picks and sign top FA's. I love Marbury but his contract kills our cap and chances of going from mediocre to championship contender.
gunsnewing
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7/29/2005  12:51 PM
Posted by Nalod:

I think under any circumstances Marbs will benefit greatly from getting double teamed by Larry and isiah.

Should we develope a point and other talent that could replace Marbs, and thus be a gatewayto a better player, then we can play that card if it comes up, but trading Marbs now is not going to get us good value, and lets now give this kid every chance to succeed before we even consider.

trading him for Al Harrington and co would enough. then racking up on high lottery picks and cap space to sigh the best free agent imaginable.

It's a shame we have Larry Brown, we finally have a championship calibur coach, but we will be no better than a 1st/2nd round exit because we lack the talent and are in cap hell.
codeunknown
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7/29/2005  12:58 PM
Posted by Killa4luv:

I am totally against trading Marbury until we can see what Larry Brown can do with him. We have one of the best coaches in the game and one of the best Pg's in the game with some nice complimentary pieces and some good young players. We have to see what Larry can do. The sky is the limit for this team if all of the chips keep falling in place for us.

I suppose thats where the disagreement starts. When you're a middle-of-the-pack Knick squad, the sky's not the limit - the limit's the sky. The glass is half-empty. The effort is half-assed. And at mid-season, we're half-way to mediocrity.

Marbury has a 5 year window from here on - is it conceivable that we have a championship squad by then? I mean, we can try squeezing in NBDL superstars and neutral trades over and over again - but the improvement will be miniscule at best. Also keep in mind that Marbury's value will reduce over the years - waiting hurts his stock. In my opinion, there is no legit shot at surrounding Marbury with the requisite talent as of now. You either bust this bunker open or it will blow up in your face.

Sh-t in the popcorn to go with sh-t on the court. Its a theme show like Medieval times.
bobs3304
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7/29/2005  1:15 PM
this discussion is null and void simply b/c of what Isiah said last night. he wants to win NOW. he thinks rebuilding is overrated.


personally, i agree with most of you that think we should trade Marbury and prepare the team for 07. But it's just not happening. So we need to move on and see what we can do with what we already have. it's gonna take some time, but I think we can rough it out and eventually have a respectable squad out there.

[Edited by - bobs3304 on 07/29/2005 13:16:00]
DLee is the best thing to happen to NY in Isiah's 4 year tenure. And that alone, though a positive on the radar, is sad as hell.
simrud
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7/29/2005  1:36 PM
People seem to think that in order to be under the cap, Marbury can't be here in 2007.

That is simply not true. If we just let TT, Penny, Mo, JYD, and Houston all expire, find a way to dump Rose and James, and don't add any more expensive players, we will be about 22 million under the cap in 2007.

Which is enough to sign 2 young superstars to the max.

So I say juest let the dead weight expire, don't trade for overpaid problem supposed superstars like Gasol and be content with makin it to the playoffs for the next two season while our rooks and young players devlop and learn under Brown.

Then in 2007 go out and get some guys, maybe even in sign and trades using Q and Craw, and bring in in the best case scenario Lebron and Yao.

How about this lineup:
Yao/James
Frye/Sweetney
Lebron/Ariza
Q/Craw
Marbury/Nate

I know its a pipedream but something along those lines.
A glimmer of hope maybe?!?
nixluva
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7/29/2005  1:42 PM
You know the 2 things aren't mutually exclusive. You can plan for the future and win now as well. Perhaps not win a title right now, but certainly get the Franchise back in the game. We have too many young players and more to come. We have a lot of vets that are on their way out in the next 2-3 years and some may be gone before the end of this season. Why do we have to make a move on Steph now, when its obvious that his stock is low and his contract has too many years. If we simply wait a few years and win some games perhaps Steph will be seen as a better commodity for other teams.

We don't have to do anything rash right now. Just show the same patience we did this off season and things will work out just fine.

I'm really looking foward to seeing Brown work with our young guys.
jaydh
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7/29/2005  1:44 PM
Posted by simrud:

People seem to think that in order to be under the cap, Marbury can't be here in 2007.

That is simply not true. If we just let TT, Penny, Mo, JYD, and Houston all expire, find a way to dump Rose and James, and don't add any more expensive players, we will be about 22 million under the cap in 2007.

Which is enough to sign 2 young superstars to the max.

So I say juest let the dead weight expire, don't trade for overpaid problem supposed superstars like Gasol and be content with makin it to the playoffs for the next two season while our rooks and young players devlop and learn under Brown.

Then in 2007 go out and get some guys, maybe even in sign and trades using Q and Craw, and bring in in the best case scenario Lebron and Yao.

How about this lineup:
Yao/James
Frye/Sweetney
Lebron/Ariza
Q/Craw
Marbury/Nate

I know its a pipedream but something along those lines.

i dont know how you get us being 22mil under the cap. if all those players come off like you say, this is what we are looking at..

marbs-20.1mil
JC-7.975mil
Q-7.54mil
Sweetney-3.6mil

That alone is $39+mil, which isnt including Frye, Nate, Lee, Ariza. That could put us up in the $50mil range easy, so even with all those guys coming off, we would still be at the max or around it, and thats without using the MLE or LLE for the next 2 seasons. I just dont see it happening.
fishmike
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7/29/2005  1:51 PM
Sim, thats not really true. If they do nothing they are at $42mm come that offseason. Now thats without Sweetney resigning or the rookie contracts. Add those and your at $50, right arouind the cap. Marbury will take up $20mm of your cap and Crawford/Q/Rose will combine for $21 (almost an even split).

Now if the Knicks could move MArbury before that time thats the easiest way to secure max FA money. If they could move Rose and either Crawford or Q they could still have close to max space while retaining Marbury.

I think cap space is a little overrated. Not overrated is a roster full of young talented players with moveable contracts, and veterans that have a lot of value.

Also consider the fact that restricted FAs are almost always retained by their teams, at least the good ones are. Its much better to be able to offer a package that makes sense to a team then try to sign a player outright.

Just my opinion but I'm looking at recent moves around the league to base it
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
simrud
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7/29/2005  1:53 PM
Hmmm good point, I forgot that I did the calculation like a month ago while talkin about tradin Marbury lol.
A glimmer of hope maybe?!?
djsunyc
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7/29/2005  2:12 PM
maybe we can push a Q for nene in a s&t after the season?

we'll have to see how all our pieces fit first tho...
gunsnewing
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7/29/2005  2:26 PM
Posted by djsunyc:

maybe we can push a Q for nene in a s&t after the season?

we'll have to see how all our pieces fit first tho...

I would love that! Q or Crawford. Then I wouldn't mind keeping Marbury. Nene is the man!
rojasmas
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7/29/2005  3:05 PM
I would love to move Q, I don't think he is that good, shoots low percentage wise and isn't a winner. Nene would be great for us! Don't think Denver would bit though.
We could be the Dallas Mavs of the East.
Nalod
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7/29/2005  4:34 PM
If we love Isiah, why not see how Frye does? Frye is his guy!
Nalod
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7/30/2005  9:06 AM
Today in the post Larry is quoted as saying we contend in the third year!

That kind of flows with my plan, and one that makes sense in terms of reality.

Give it time folks, no rash trades to put it all in place. If we do that we will fall very short.

Maybe "Isiahs secret vision" is to clear it out and bring in the missing piece via free agency?

Damm, where is Dido when you need a mind reader!
Allanfan20
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7/30/2005  11:56 AM
I'm pretty much with fishmike on this one. Most of the really good free agents in the next few years are going to be restricted, and their teams are going to do everything possible to resign and match every offer. We're better off just looking into a sign and trade if we really really want one of those guys. This is why it's important to kinda stockpile on talent in the draft as I have learned over the past few years and why it's NOT a good idea to go after guys like Mo T, and Jerome James.
“Whenever I’m about to do something, I think ‘Would an idiot do that?’ and if they would, I do NOT do that thing.”- Dwight Schrute
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