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how far we came ..no haters allowed
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NYKniCksFan87
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7/29/2005  11:46 AM
*hater free thread*
Its truly amazing how far this team has come...I remember 5-6 months ago how were languishing over our teams poor play on all facets of the game...our coaching was suspect,defense was atrocious and overall we were garbage

But now the new seasons here and im pretty optimistic, its going to be a fun season..we'll finally (im hoping) see defense and (hoping again) alot more victories..we have a talented group of players now we just got to develop chemistry and have all the players play up to their potential and i feel brown is the perfect coach for bringing out a players potential.

compare this team to the team that had eisley running the point, that team was bad and now we actually have some talent

I hope everyone sleeps on this team because i wanna shut up every body ESPN,Nets Fans and everyone who are saying we'll suck...

In closing this thread is just done to raise morale lol..im looking foward to this year...i cant wait till 05-06 season starts

''We don't have the luxury to take anybody lightly,'' New York's Quentin Richardson said. ''We're not that good.''
AUTOADVERT
simrud
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7/29/2005  11:49 AM
It will be fun for sure, but there is still a long way to go. Brown needs better players, for now I'd say we fall somwhere between 1st and 2nd round of the playoffs as a high, and striggling 8th seed as low expectations wise.

Hopefully there are more good trades coming.
A glimmer of hope maybe?!?
Nalod
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7/29/2005  11:50 AM
Everything Is Beautiful
Ray Stevens
- written by Ray Stevens

Jesus loves the little children, all the little children of the world
Red and yellow, black and white, they are precious in his sight
Jesus loves the little children of the world

Everything is beautiful in its' own way
Like a starry summer night or a snow covered winter's day
Everybody's beautiful in their own way
Under God's heaven, the world's gonna find a way

There is none so blind as he who will not see
Ww must not close our minds, we must let our thought be free
For every hour that passes by, you know the world gets a little bit older
It's time to realize that beauty lies in the eyes of the beholder

Everything is beautiful in its' own way
Like a starry summer night or a snow covered winter's day
Ah, sing it children
Everybody's beautiful in their own way
Under God's heaven, the world's gonna find a way

We shouldn't care about the length of his hair or the color of his skin
Don't worry about what shows from without but the love that lives within
We're gonna get it all together now and everything gonna work out fine
Just take a little time to look on the good side my friend
And straighten it out in your mind

Everything is beautiful in its' own way
Like a starry summer night or a snow covered winter's day
Everybody's beautiful in their own way
Under God's heaven, the world's gonna find a way

fishmike
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7/29/2005  11:55 AM
nobody can predict if it will work or not, and there have certainly been a lot of questions along the way. Everyone knows there's a handfull of moves I dont like and are pretty dubious, but big picture is good and overall I'm very happy.

We went from an old team, no coach and no direction that had a pipeline of Milos Vujanic, Sweetney Lampe, Frank Williams and Slavko Vranes to having a great coach and a pipeline of Ariza, Sweetney, Lee, Frye, Robinson and Butler. We also added MArbury, Crawford and Q; a couple of younger guys and one real stud.

We are definatly on a good course. I hope we can avoid the obvious pitfalls this year and stay this course.
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
Killa4luv
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7/29/2005  12:07 PM
Posted by simrud:

It will be fun for sure, but there is still a long way to go. Brown needs better players, for now I'd say we fall somwhere between 1st and 2nd round of the playoffs as a high, and striggling 8th seed as low expectations wise.

Hopefully there are more good trades coming.
You just changed your signature and that really made my day. It is truly a new day for the Knicks.
Nalod
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7/29/2005  12:16 PM
Posted by NYKniCksFan87:

*hater free thread*
Its truly amazing how far this team has come...I remember 5-6 months ago how were languishing over our teams poor play on all facets of the game...our coaching was suspect,defense was atrocious and overall we were garbage

But now the new seasons here and im pretty optimistic, its going to be a fun season..we'll finally (im hoping) see defense and (hoping again) alot more victories..we have a talented group of players now we just got to develop chemistry and have all the players play up to their potential and i feel brown is the perfect coach for bringing out a players potential.

compare this team to the team that had eisley running the point, that team was bad and now we actually have some talent

I hope everyone sleeps on this team because i wanna shut up every body ESPN,Nets Fans and everyone who are saying we'll suck...

In closing this thread is just done to raise morale lol..im looking foward to this year...i cant wait till 05-06 season starts

Larry said we will be awful for a while until our boys get it right!

So we can expect a rash of negative press and hissing from net fans while we iron out the fundamentals.

This is a great statement as it shows we won't take shortcuts just to win over a false buzz from fans. Larry and the youth movement will attract corperate sponsers and sell tickets.

Isiah is selling this team nice, and expectations should be lowered at first.

Yes, we are on a proper course. Kudos and love to Isiah, Mills and even Dolan for righting the ship. With substancial fundamentals and hard work, it will be for real. Just a matter of when!
gunsnewing
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7/29/2005  12:20 PM
Posted by Nalod:
Posted by NYKniCksFan87:

*hater free thread*
Its truly amazing how far this team has come...I remember 5-6 months ago how were languishing over our teams poor play on all facets of the game...our coaching was suspect,defense was atrocious and overall we were garbage

But now the new seasons here and im pretty optimistic, its going to be a fun season..we'll finally (im hoping) see defense and (hoping again) alot more victories..we have a talented group of players now we just got to develop chemistry and have all the players play up to their potential and i feel brown is the perfect coach for bringing out a players potential.

compare this team to the team that had eisley running the point, that team was bad and now we actually have some talent

I hope everyone sleeps on this team because i wanna shut up every body ESPN,Nets Fans and everyone who are saying we'll suck...

In closing this thread is just done to raise morale lol..im looking foward to this year...i cant wait till 05-06 season starts

Larry said we will be awful for a while until our boys get it right!

So we can expect a rash of negative press and hissing from net fans while we iron out the fundamentals.

This is a great statement as it shows we won't take shortcuts just to win over a false buzz from fans. Larry and the youth movement will attract corperate sponsers and sell tickets.

Isiah is selling this team nice, and expectations should be lowered at first.

Yes, we are on a proper course. Kudos and love to Isiah, Mills and even Dolan for righting the ship. With substancial fundamentals and hard work, it will be for real. Just a matter of when!

yep as soon as Marbury & his $22mil per year, H20, TT, Penny & Taylor are off the books and either Lebron, KG, Bosh or Wade are in.

We're going to be mediocre with or without Marbury. Why not trade him to Atanta and stock up on high lottery picks in the meantime then sign the next big FA

[Edited by - gunsnewing on 07/29/2005 12:40:52]
nixluva
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7/29/2005  2:00 PM
Gunsnewing, you really don't have an accurate sense of what we have as a team.

What sort of opinion do you think people had of Chauncey Billups before Larry got to him. He was certainly not the player that Steph has been in his career. Yet we can see how things change when a player is put under the right direction. Steph clearly hasn't had many good coaches and this will be his 1st Great Coach. in fact I think one of Steph's problems is that he's had so many coaches and has been moved so much that its impossible to build anything great under those circumstances. Perhaps now we can start to build something. He can settle in under a great system and with all the new help we have for him he won't have to feel like he needs to do it all on offense.

We lost so many games last year that should have been won. No sense of what to do in late game situations. We lost some 22 games by 6 or less. Even if we win half of those games it would be a great 1st season for us. LB's thing is Defense and fundemental offensive play, so this team should be MUCH better this year. I'm expecting an above .500 season and playoffs.
gunsnewing
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7/29/2005  2:16 PM
Posted by nixluva:

Gunsnewing, you really don't have an accurate sense of what we have as a team.

What sort of opinion do you think people had of Chauncey Billups before Larry got to him. He was certainly not the player that Steph has been in his career. Yet we can see how things change when a player is put under the right direction. Steph clearly hasn't had many good coaches and this will be his 1st Great Coach. in fact I think one of Steph's problems is that he's had so many coaches and has been moved so much that its impossible to build anything great under those circumstances. Perhaps now we can start to build something. He can settle in under a great system and with all the new help we have for him he won't have to feel like he needs to do it all on offense.

We lost so many games last year that should have been won. No sense of what to do in late game situations. We lost some 22 games by 6 or less. Even if we win half of those games it would be a great 1st season for us. LB's thing is Defense and fundemental offensive play, so this team should be MUCH better this year. I'm expecting an above .500 season and playoffs.

Funny I tend to think I not only have a sense of the team I've been watching none-stop for over a decade but I also like to think I have a sense of contracts, the cap and whats best for our future. You misunderstand the point me and some others are trying to make. No one is denying how talented Marbury is. He's better than Billups as far as I'm concerned. The problem is Detroit didn't win it all because they had Billups and Brown. They won because they also had Ben and Rasheed in the frontcourt. In order for us to build that frontcourt we have to either trade Marbury and his huge contract and let TT, Penny, Taylor, H20, Rose, JYD and the rest of the deadweight expire don't add steven francis because he's a young, athletic, versatile combo guard or boozer because he's better than anyone we have and then you can keep Marbury and still go after championship calibur players like Lebron, Bosh, Ming & Wade and in the meantime stack up on the next Duncan, Lebron, Ming Shaq, D-Rob, Olajuwon, Ewing etc through the draft.



[Edited by - gunsnewing on 07/29/2005 14:22:42]
fishmike
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7/29/2005  2:40 PM
thats a plan with a lot of holes. How's it working out for Atlanta or Chi who built their teams around cap space.

A much better plan is to stockpile picks, talent and good young players. Marbury may not have a friendly contract, but he's the equivalent of a 27 year old with a 100 mph fast ball. Someone will always be willing to take a shot at getting him straight.

Cap space is not tangible and doesnt give you leverage. Having assets other teams want does.

Also consider guys like Amare, Lebron and Yao are pipedreams that guys like Chad Ford like to right about. Most will sign extensions in year 3. Most others will have any offer made by another team matched. This is not a path to go.

Adding 3 good picks, resigning Ariza, and adding Q were good moves. Those are desirable players and pieces to have. Plus we have an extra #1 next year.
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
gunsnewing
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7/29/2005  2:50 PM
Posted by fishmike:

thats a plan with a lot of holes. How's it working out for Atlanta or Chi who built their teams around cap space.

A much better plan is to stockpile picks, talent and good young players. Marbury may not have a friendly contract, but he's the equivalent of a 27 year old with a 100 mph fast ball. Someone will always be willing to take a shot at getting him straight.

Cap space is not tangible and doesnt give you leverage. Having assets other teams want does.

Also consider guys like Amare, Lebron and Yao are pipedreams that guys like Chad Ford like to right about. Most will sign extensions in year 3. Most others will have any offer made by another team matched. This is not a path to go.

Adding 3 good picks, resigning Ariza, and adding Q were good moves. Those are desirable players and pieces to have. Plus we have an extra #1 next year.

not as desirable as stockpiling HIGH lottery picks and leaving the door open cap-wise and landing a top FA. We're going to be mediocre with or without Marbury why not stock up on higher lottery picks in the meantime? Marbury is only getting older. If Atlanta wants him and they might since they need a PG desperately and they will sell a bunch of tickets with Georgia's favorite son Marbury running the show.
nyk4ever
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7/29/2005  2:53 PM
Posted by fishmike:

thats a plan with a lot of holes. How's it working out for Atlanta or Chi who built their teams around cap space.

A much better plan is to stockpile picks, talent and good young players. Marbury may not have a friendly contract, but he's the equivalent of a 27 year old with a 100 mph fast ball. Someone will always be willing to take a shot at getting him straight.

Cap space is not tangible and doesnt give you leverage. Having assets other teams want does.

Also consider guys like Amare, Lebron and Yao are pipedreams that guys like Chad Ford like to right about. Most will sign extensions in year 3. Most others will have any offer made by another team matched. This is not a path to go.

Adding 3 good picks, resigning Ariza, and adding Q were good moves. Those are desirable players and pieces to have. Plus we have an extra #1 next year.

Fish, you and I have disagreed about a TON of things but I think you absolutely nailed it on the head right here. Excellent Post. Things dont always work out when you build your team around cap space and they don't always work out when you build the team like Isiah is trying to do right now but the point is there is ALWAYS 2 paths you can go. Each of them has their advantages and disadvantages but in the end its been proven that the way Isiah is trying to do it works.

Excellent post Fish.
"OMG - did we just go on a two-trade-wining-streak?" -SupremeCommander
gunsnewing
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7/29/2005  3:01 PM
again you're not fully grasping the point if you think trading Marbury is strictly about cap space. Having 20win seasons as opposed to 39wins and 1st round playoff exit and having a great chance at winning the lottery for consecutive years and landing the next big player and all the while getting under the cap and signing top free agents is what makes champions. Yes having desirable players also does but honestly I don't think Crawford, Q, Ariza are very desirable. I'll hope for the best but I rather go the route of the Spurs, Heat, Bulls, Rockets, Detroit, Celtics, & the Lakers and that is by drafting and acquiring guys like Jabbar, Jordan, Magic, Isiah, Bird, Olajuwon, Duncan, D-Rob, Butler & Odom that lead to Shaq
nyk4ever
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7/29/2005  3:02 PM
Posted by gunsnewing:
Posted by fishmike:

thats a plan with a lot of holes. How's it working out for Atlanta or Chi who built their teams around cap space.

A much better plan is to stockpile picks, talent and good young players. Marbury may not have a friendly contract, but he's the equivalent of a 27 year old with a 100 mph fast ball. Someone will always be willing to take a shot at getting him straight.

Cap space is not tangible and doesnt give you leverage. Having assets other teams want does.

Also consider guys like Amare, Lebron and Yao are pipedreams that guys like Chad Ford like to right about. Most will sign extensions in year 3. Most others will have any offer made by another team matched. This is not a path to go.

Adding 3 good picks, resigning Ariza, and adding Q were good moves. Those are desirable players and pieces to have. Plus we have an extra #1 next year.

not as desirable as stockpiling HIGH lottery picks and leaving the door open cap-wise and landing a top FA. We're going to be mediocre with or without Marbury why not stock up on higher lottery picks in the meantime? Marbury is only getting older. If Atlanta wants him and they might since they need a PG desperately and they will sell a bunch of tickets with Georgia's favorite son Marbury running the show.

to you its not as desirable...

Look at how well thats worked out for teams like Atlanta, the Clippers, the Bulls were terrible for years, the Bucks; these teams have been terrible for years. Taking that route doesn't work as much as you think.

[Edited by - nyk4ever on 07/29/2005 15:02:41]
"OMG - did we just go on a two-trade-wining-streak?" -SupremeCommander
djsunyc
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7/29/2005  3:05 PM
this sounds good BUT this IS ny. and if you throw money at a player in the nba, more often than not, they'll come to ny.

IF we had cap room 2 years ago, we have either shaq or kobe.

you just never know what'll happen b/c it's never really been done here but i think we would have the pick of the litter if we were going after unrestricted free agents.
gunsnewing
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7/29/2005  3:07 PM
Posted by nyk4ever:
Posted by gunsnewing:
Posted by fishmike:

thats a plan with a lot of holes. How's it working out for Atlanta or Chi who built their teams around cap space.

A much better plan is to stockpile picks, talent and good young players. Marbury may not have a friendly contract, but he's the equivalent of a 27 year old with a 100 mph fast ball. Someone will always be willing to take a shot at getting him straight.

Cap space is not tangible and doesnt give you leverage. Having assets other teams want does.

Also consider guys like Amare, Lebron and Yao are pipedreams that guys like Chad Ford like to right about. Most will sign extensions in year 3. Most others will have any offer made by another team matched. This is not a path to go.

Adding 3 good picks, resigning Ariza, and adding Q were good moves. Those are desirable players and pieces to have. Plus we have an extra #1 next year.

not as desirable as stockpiling HIGH lottery picks and leaving the door open cap-wise and landing a top FA. We're going to be mediocre with or without Marbury why not stock up on higher lottery picks in the meantime? Marbury is only getting older. If Atlanta wants him and they might since they need a PG desperately and they will sell a bunch of tickets with Georgia's favorite son Marbury running the show.

to you its not as desirable...

Look at how well thats worked out for teams like Atlanta, the Clippers, the Bulls were terrible for years, the Bucks; these teams have been terrible for years. Taking that route doesn't work as much as you think.

[Edited by - nyk4ever on 07/29/2005 15:02:41]

look at the markets you listed. The reason it hasn't worked in those places is because no top flight superstar wants to risk ruining their legacy in those small markets. You're telling me that in New York if we stockpile high lottery picks and get cap room we won't be able to lure the best free agent available by offering him the most money and show deals, commercials and everything else that comes with playing in the biggest market in the world?
gunsnewing
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7/29/2005  3:08 PM
Posted by djsunyc:

this sounds good BUT this IS ny. and if you throw money at a player in the nba, more often than not, they'll come to ny.

IF we had cap room 2 years ago, we have either shaq or kobe.

you just never know what'll happen b/c it's never really been done here but i think we would have the pick of the litter if we were going after unrestricted free agents.

ha you said the same exact thing i did DJ...Kudos to you sir!
nixluva
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7/29/2005  3:09 PM
Posted by gunsnewing:

Funny I tend to think I not only have a sense of the team I've been watching none-stop for over a decade but I also like to think I have a sense of contracts, the cap and whats best for our future. You misunderstand the point me and some others are trying to make. No one is denying how talented Marbury is. He's better than Billups as far as I'm concerned. The problem is Detroit didn't win it all because they had Billups and Brown. They won because they also had Ben and Rasheed in the frontcourt. In order for us to build that frontcourt we have to either trade Marbury and his huge contract and let TT, Penny, Taylor, H20, Rose, JYD and the rest of the deadweight expire don't add steven francis because he's a young, athletic, versatile combo guard or boozer because he's better than anyone we have and then you can keep Marbury and still go after championship calibur players like Lebron, Bosh, Ming & Wade and in the meantime stack up on the next Duncan, Lebron, Ming Shaq, D-Rob, Olajuwon, Ewing etc through the draft.

[Edited by - gunsnewing on 07/29/2005 14:22:42]

I'm a longtime fan, i'm 40 yrs old and have been faithfully following the team for at least 25 years. I think that the way we are going is just fine and we only need to show patience and then make the right deal when we are dealing from a position of strength.

As Fishmike said, we can't expect that these other teams are just going to let us take their best player as they can all sign they're players for more than we could even if we have all the cap space in the world. Now if we keep adding talent and if we start to win, then all of our players will look a lot more attractive should one of those teams feel they want to start over and are looking for a trade.
gunsnewing
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7/29/2005  3:11 PM
Posted by nixluva:
Posted by gunsnewing:

Funny I tend to think I not only have a sense of the team I've been watching none-stop for over a decade but I also like to think I have a sense of contracts, the cap and whats best for our future. You misunderstand the point me and some others are trying to make. No one is denying how talented Marbury is. He's better than Billups as far as I'm concerned. The problem is Detroit didn't win it all because they had Billups and Brown. They won because they also had Ben and Rasheed in the frontcourt. In order for us to build that frontcourt we have to either trade Marbury and his huge contract and let TT, Penny, Taylor, H20, Rose, JYD and the rest of the deadweight expire don't add steven francis because he's a young, athletic, versatile combo guard or boozer because he's better than anyone we have and then you can keep Marbury and still go after championship calibur players like Lebron, Bosh, Ming & Wade and in the meantime stack up on the next Duncan, Lebron, Ming Shaq, D-Rob, Olajuwon, Ewing etc through the draft.

[Edited by - gunsnewing on 07/29/2005 14:22:42]

I'm a longtime fan, i'm 40 yrs old and have been faithfully following the team for at least 25 years. I think that the way we are going is just fine and we only need to show patience and then make the right deal when we are dealing from a position of strength.

As Fishmike said, we can't expect that these other teams are just going to let us take their best player as they can all sign they're players for more than we could even if we have all the cap space in the world. Now if we keep adding talent and if we start to win, then all of our players will look a lot more attractive should one of those teams feel they want to start over and are looking for a trade.

not if one of those players grow unhappy with mediocrity and being in smaller markets and demand that they are traded to a bigger market team like NY, LA, Chicago, Florida etc
Rich
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7/29/2005  3:12 PM
Posted by fishmike:

thats a plan with a lot of holes. How's it working out for Atlanta or Chi who built their teams around cap space.

A much better plan is to stockpile picks, talent and good young players. Marbury may not have a friendly contract, but he's the equivalent of a 27 year old with a 100 mph fast ball. Someone will always be willing to take a shot at getting him straight.

Cap space is not tangible and doesnt give you leverage. Having assets other teams want does.

Also consider guys like Amare, Lebron and Yao are pipedreams that guys like Chad Ford like to right about. Most will sign extensions in year 3. Most others will have any offer made by another team matched. This is not a path to go.

Adding 3 good picks, resigning Ariza, and adding Q were good moves. Those are desirable players and pieces to have. Plus we have an extra #1 next year.

I think the Knicks, having the Garden and NYC to sell, would be a very attractive place for free agents, as it was in 1996, the last time they had significant cap room.

I don't see any reason why you can't construct a team with players whose contracts expire during the same or similar time horizons.

Given Marbury's knees, I would compare him to pitcher who once threw 96, but now throws 94, and needs to add another pitch (in his case defense) to return to an elite level.

That said, if Isiah can emulate the Miami model and trade two or three good young players for a dominant big man, prefereably one who is under 30, the Knicks could be in a position to compete for a championship over time.

I just think that you can create cap space and acquire young talent and draft picks. They are not mutually exclusive goals.

The key to Brown's success here will be how he develops the young players.
how far we came ..no haters allowed

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