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the Paul Westphal / Herb scenario isnt the worst
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fishmike
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7/18/2005  12:12 PM
We have added size and some dynamic offensive players. The players played very hard for Herb (if not always well) last year. Despite all the losses guys never quit. We werent a good defensive team but I'm hoping the size alone will help that. Paul Westphal is a good mind to have as "offensive coordinator."

If Herb can get them just playing hard in some kind of system with Westphal running the offense there is some potential there. IMO this is probably the best case scenario as no top tier coach wants to come here
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
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Pharzeone
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7/18/2005  12:16 PM
The only problem with that is that Westphal has more credentials to be head coach than Herb Williams. I mean I rather see Herb phased out. I think Malone and Aguire have more potential at coaching then Herb. I rather have Westphal come here as a head coach with those two as his top assistants. I don't know give Herb, the radio gig over John. Herb and Gus won't be too bad for the radio.
I don't like to play bad rookies , I like to play good rookies - Mike D'Antoni
fishmike
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7/18/2005  12:19 PM
why? Herb is regarded as a good basketball mind and a student of the game, even when he was player. Why do Aguire or Malone have more potential? Because Herb did a poor job with last year's club? He's essentially a rookie head coach.
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
MaulingandAppalling
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7/18/2005  12:30 PM
Herb didn't do a poor job last year, he did a horrible job, in every facet of coaching. The team was unprepared each night, the offensive sets were sickening, and Herb had no authority with referees or with his own players. The only reason we were close in any games was because Steph willed the team to stay competitive, but obviously that's not enough- even Kobe couldn't do it without a coach last year.

The players might like and respect Herb, but that's meaningless.
Allanfan20
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7/18/2005  12:35 PM
I don't understand the desperation to get Herb the heck out of here. I mean, unless it is in fact Larry Brown or Pat Riley, do people really think that a coach could make this team THAT much better? Why not just have Herb learn. He's a smart guy. And like Fishmike said, the guys played hard. The fact that they weren't a good defensive team in the first place is something to consider. I'll put the past the part where Herb never played Trevor or Butler, but we don't know who's fault that is, so I wont point any fingers at this point. We don't know what's going on behind the scenes. However, it's hard for me to say if I trust Herb or not, b/c this will be his first full year as head coach, (Hopefully). Lets just see what the guy can do. One thing though. It might be tough for him, b/c he doesn't have KT to lean on anymore, and Houston will prolly be gone. This is a completely different scenario for him. He's never really been part of a rebuilding situation. Not in NY at least.
“Whenever I’m about to do something, I think ‘Would an idiot do that?’ and if they would, I do NOT do that thing.”- Dwight Schrute
KNICKSdom
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7/18/2005  12:36 PM
This is a good case scenario. Westphal coaches the offense and provides input during closes games that require wizardry offense planning to pull a game winner. Herb will then be able to focus on the defensive chess match and whatnots. So much potential there. The pairing of Herb/Westphal could be a blessing in disguise.
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roblackman
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7/18/2005  1:12 PM
Herb is an underdog, the Knicks are underdogs, Westphal is looking for redemption--everyone is hungry to prove themselves, I think this will prove to play a big factor in the Knicks success next year.
And the reply is...a post that makes sense (still waiting)
diderotn
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7/18/2005  1:16 PM
I don't like Herb as headcoach, but if that is the way that Isiah wishes to go, I will support it. Herb has done nothing to deserve this job...
The true Knickabocker..........
roblackman
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7/18/2005  1:20 PM
Posted by diderotn:

I don't like Herb as headcoach, but if that is the way that Isiah wishes to go, I will support it. Herb has done nothing to deserve this job...

You know if Herb sucks Isiah will pull him faster than Nate Rob on speed.
And the reply is...a post that makes sense (still waiting)
Pharzeone
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7/18/2005  1:21 PM
Posted by fishmike:

why? Herb is regarded as a good basketball mind and a student of the game, even when he was player. Why do Aguire or Malone have more potential? Because Herb did a poor job with last year's club? He's essentially a rookie head coach.
I don't know where he is regarded as a good baskeball mind except by Isiah and Mike Breen. I never heard any team in pursuit of Herb. That's part of the problem. He has never had experience on any level as a head coach. Not NBA, CBA, NBDL, NCAA or HS to my knowledge he hasn't even coached a junior league some where. The only experience was the Summer League last season and the one game between Lenny and Chaney. Does he have any experience as the top assistant coach. To my knowledge he never served that role with the Knicks. Chaney was JVG's top guy. Brendan was Chaney's and Lenny's was Shur. The only reason why Shur didn't take over was the controversy and he wanted to be in the front office.
I don't like to play bad rookies , I like to play good rookies - Mike D'Antoni
simrud
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7/18/2005  1:26 PM
Considering that Herb is regarded a good basketball mind by Mike Breen only, who is really there s=to suck up to everything the Knicks do, as that appears to be the main criteria for the job, I would not put much value in his statements about anything.

Just rememer KT is a 1st team all defense according to Brean.
A glimmer of hope maybe?!?
Nalod
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7/18/2005  1:27 PM
Good coaches take some time and need to fail before understanding success.

THis is a young team that will search for its identity. Herb with a good assistant is just fine.

It also gives Isiah room to dictate many things with no threat of ego.

Either Herb does well, and he will have two years, or it gives Isiah a shot to put in himself, or a star coach with little financial loss, and he did further Herbs career.

It really is not big deal. This team is rebuilding, big time win now coach is not going to take on a team this deep in transition!
Pharzeone
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7/18/2005  1:38 PM
Posted by KNICKSdom:

This is a good case scenario. Westphal coaches the offense and provides input during closes games that require wizardry offense planning to pull a game winner. Herb will then be able to focus on the defensive chess match and whatnots. So much potential there. The pairing of Herb/Westphal could be a blessing in disguise.
Troubling things came out near the end of the season about Herb's tenure. First was the reports that he went to Tex Winters for advice as to develop a style of coaching. I don't think I ever heard a head coach ever get a job without first having a style they want to run. Whether it is up tempo, half court, defensive set, offensive set plays. It bothers me that a man sat on the bench for 5 or 6 years behind some decent coaches and up to this point hadn't thought about what style he would be running if he was calling the shots. I mean I don't know about you but that a standard interview question. "What can you bring to this organization/team/whatever?" "What would you do if you were manager/supervisor/department head?" It just shows a lack of preparation as well as ambition. I give him credit now. He looks like he is taking it more serious and trying to develop game plans and has I idea of what he wants to do. My second point is that more qualified guys are out there. The guy you want to get as his top assistant is a great deal more qualified than Herb. Westphal has a great deal of experience, been to the finals, as well as a number playoff games. The style the Knicks (Isiah) are trying to push is more fitted for what Westphal. No matter if it is Herb or Larry. Westphal should be retained. 3rd Let me know when 'Herb the discipline' shows up. For all the talk that guys played hard for him. Crawford showed signs of controlling himself but made statements like "I don't know what's my role on this team." You can't have one of your young players making a statement like that to the press. Herb wanted to play Marbury more at 2 but Marbury just dismissed him in the press as saying he is a point guard and Herb backed off. He needs to be more firm with his players. If you watched any of the SL games you can see Aguire getting into the face of his players without hesitation.
I don't like to play bad rookies , I like to play good rookies - Mike D'Antoni
JayNYC
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7/18/2005  1:48 PM
Posted by fishmike:

We have added size and some dynamic offensive players. The players played very hard for Herb (if not always well) last year. Despite all the losses guys never quit. We werent a good defensive team but I'm hoping the size alone will help that. Paul Westphal is a good mind to have as "offensive coordinator."

If Herb can get them just playing hard in some kind of system with Westphal running the offense there is some potential there. IMO this is probably the best case scenario as no top tier coach wants to come here

I agree... and I think Herb will do well. Remember Jeff Van Gundy, and the Nets Coach, Jeff's brother.. Nate McMillan. All listed as bright young minds early on in their coaching careers. Somebody took a chance on them, and now all are recognized as being really good coaches. Herb and Westphal will do fine (Defense/Offensive mind set is what we need in our philosophy. After that, we can bring P.E. back in some capacity.
Inhale deep like the words of my breath/ I never sleep, cause sleep is the cousin of death-- Circa 1994 Nasty Nas: NY State of Mind
fishmike
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7/18/2005  3:40 PM
its troubling that a rookie coach asks for advice and looks to other areas of input? Maybe we are better off with Lenny who knew everything? You get experience by being in a position
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
Pharzeone
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7/18/2005  3:49 PM
Posted by fishmike:

its troubling that a rookie coach asks for advice and looks to other areas of input? Maybe we are better off with Lenny who knew everything? You get experience by being in a position

That's fair. I think Lenny lost alot between Atlanta and Toronto. I still believe he can coach maybe not the Knicks as they were constituted though. If you asked any of the young players who they worked with they are going to either tell you Aguire or Malone. They seem to get the most credit as well. I don't know if that is good PR on their behalf or just bad PR on Herb's. If you knock me out and wipe my memory had gave me a choice between a Paul Westphal based on his resume or a Herb Williams based on his I am going to take Westphal. To me Herb has done nothing to really get the job except just be in the right position. The same can be said of Bob Weiss with the Sonics. Avery Johnson was groomed by Nellie who saw much potential in him more than he did his own son. I don't know if any other coach can honestly say the same for Herb. Besides Herb was given a chance and failed. I don't care what team the guy has. He did a horrible job. Pat Riley, Larry Brown or even JVG would have done a better job with that team last season.
I don't like to play bad rookies , I like to play good rookies - Mike D'Antoni
technomaster
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7/18/2005  4:29 PM
Some coaches are born ready. JVG. Lawrence Frank. Heck, Larry Bird, Byron Scott, Terry Porter, Doc Rivers... all of these guys had pretty good tenures in their first coaching jobs.

First time coaches who get to start the season as head coach generally fare much better than those who take over teams mid-season. It's almost unfair to expect too much--- there's no training camp to institute new rules/plays/procedures with the players, so you end up playing with the legacy of the previous coach.

“That was two, two from the heart.” - John Starks
Pharzeone
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7/18/2005  5:18 PM
Posted by technomaster:

Some coaches are born ready. JVG. Lawrence Frank. Heck, Larry Bird, Byron Scott, Terry Porter, Doc Rivers... all of these guys had pretty good tenures in their first coaching jobs.

First time coaches who get to start the season as head coach generally fare much better than those who take over teams mid-season. It's almost unfair to expect too much--- there's no training camp to institute new rules/plays/procedures with the players, so you end up playing with the legacy of the previous coach.
Yep, that's why interim coaches are rarely deemed acceptable head coaches after the season. Plenty of head coaches fired in the NBA this past season can you tell me one interim who got the position full time. The only one I can think of is AVery Johnson and Nellie stepped down and groomed Johnson, who already received permission by Cuban as to the gameplan. J-Kidd... I mean the Nets clearly didn't want Scott, wanted Eddie Jordan, Jordan wanted in his contract that he would be the next head coach but Thorn was willing to put that in writing. Eddie moves on, and Frank is in the right position. Kidd to save face has to say he likes him. To save face Thorn has to say he likes him. The book is still out on Frank. Can anyone honestly tell me that if Herb is fired today that he will swoop up by another team. Unless JVG takes him, Herb would be out of work big time. Herb Williams situation reminds me alot of Tree Rollins' situation in the early 90s.
I don't like to play bad rookies , I like to play good rookies - Mike D'Antoni
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