Posted by gunsnewing:

Posted by Killa4luv:

Posted by gunsnewing:

kobe was drafted by the Lakers and I'm not sure without Kobe they would've won 3 championships. as dominant as Shaq was

Shaq was the key to each and every one of those championships, and to say anything else is pure insanity. Kobe could have been replaced, Shaq couldn't have. Shaq was the key and he wasn't drafted.

but has Shaq ever won anything without Kobe? I definitely agree,Shaq is more important but you're underestimating how much someone as good as Kobe takes the pressure off of Shaq down the stretch

[Edited by - gunsnewing on 07/15/2005 16:33:28]

Dwayne Wade did a pretty good job this year taking the pressure off, if he didn't get hurt it was going to the be Heat playing the Spurs in the championship, not the Pistons AND Shaq was hurt. He was playing at 80%

[Edited by - nyk4ever on 07/15/2005 16:39:08]

Posted by nyk4ever:

Posted by gunsnewing:

Posted by Killa4luv:

Posted by gunsnewing:

kobe was drafted by the Lakers and I'm not sure without Kobe they would've won 3 championships. as dominant as Shaq was

Shaq was the key to each and every one of those championships, and to say anything else is pure insanity. Kobe could have been replaced, Shaq couldn't have. Shaq was the key and he wasn't drafted.

but has Shaq ever won anything without Kobe? I definitely agree,Shaq is more important but you're underestimating how much someone as good as Kobe takes the pressure off of Shaq down the stretch

[Edited by - gunsnewing on 07/15/2005 16:33:28]

Dwayne Wade did a pretty good job this year taking the pressure off, if he didn't get hurt it was going to the be Heat playing the Spurs in the championship, not the Pistons.

Wade is well on his way to Kobe's level.

I'll take Wade over Eddie Jones anyday.

The point I made was Shaq can't win by himself. Eddie Jones is a good 3rd option not 2nd option. Penny was overrated. Kobe and Wade is exactly what Shaq needs

Posted by nyk4ever:

Posted by TMS:

Posted by djsunyc:

one thing tho - for all the young guys he brought in,

ariza, lee, nate, frye - they're all coachable, young, hungry, and play hard.

but then he brings in mo, vin, and jerome - 3 guys who HISTORICALLY have been lazy, out of shape, or just don't get it.

what i've been saying all day yesterday...but i guess if you don't like some of Isiah's moves (even while you like the others), you're automatically labeled a pessimistic knee jerk reaction hater.

Well when you don't look at the facts that people are presenting to you about having more then half of our roster being between the ages of 18 and 25 and just ignoring this fact, then you can understand why that people are labeling you. Isiah is rebuilding while trying to be competitve and soon 2 more of those guys that are over the age of 25(Penny, TT) are going to be gone as well for a young PF or C so that looks like rebuilding to me.

i've stated time & time again that i was happy w/Isiah's acquisitions of Marbury, Crawford, Nate, JYD, Ariza & Q...you're another one that just sees what they want to see...i'm criticizing this 1 move of signing Jerome James & i'm automatically classified as a hater of everything he does...it's ridiculous...it seems this board has become more of an Isiah Lovers haven than a place where people can freely exchange opposing points of view.

Posted by TMS:

Posted by nyk4ever:

Posted by TMS:

Posted by djsunyc:

one thing tho - for all the young guys he brought in,

ariza, lee, nate, frye - they're all coachable, young, hungry, and play hard.

but then he brings in mo, vin, and jerome - 3 guys who HISTORICALLY have been lazy, out of shape, or just don't get it.

what i've been saying all day yesterday...but i guess if you don't like some of Isiah's moves (even while you like the others), you're automatically labeled a pessimistic knee jerk reaction hater.

Well when you don't look at the facts that people are presenting to you about having more then half of our roster being between the ages of 18 and 25 and just ignoring this fact, then you can understand why that people are labeling you. Isiah is rebuilding while trying to be competitve and soon 2 more of those guys that are over the age of 25(Penny, TT) are going to be gone as well for a young PF or C so that looks like rebuilding to me.

i've stated time & time again that i was happy w/Isiah's acquisitions of Marbury, Crawford, Nate, JYD, Ariza & Q...you're another one that just sees what they want to see...i'm criticizing this 1 move of signing Jerome James & i'm automatically classified as a hater of everything he does...it's ridiculous...it seems this board has become more of an Isiah Lovers haven than a place where people can freely exchange opposing points of view.

thats exactly how I felt after we drafted Frye. I was getting killed here with people telling me to go root for the Lakers and why am I still here. its pretty funny!

but I actually like the James signing. Kwame and Swift weren't realistic options. Swift is going to get 9mil somewhere to be a starter

Posted by TMS:

Posted by nyk4ever:

Posted by TMS:

Posted by djsunyc:

one thing tho - for all the young guys he brought in,

ariza, lee, nate, frye - they're all coachable, young, hungry, and play hard.

but then he brings in mo, vin, and jerome - 3 guys who HISTORICALLY have been lazy, out of shape, or just don't get it.

what i've been saying all day yesterday...but i guess if you don't like some of Isiah's moves (even while you like the others), you're automatically labeled a pessimistic knee jerk reaction hater.

Well when you don't look at the facts that people are presenting to you about having more then half of our roster being between the ages of 18 and 25 and just ignoring this fact, then you can understand why that people are labeling you. Isiah is rebuilding while trying to be competitve and soon 2 more of those guys that are over the age of 25(Penny, TT) are going to be gone as well for a young PF or C so that looks like rebuilding to me.

i've stated time & time again that i was happy w/Isiah's acquisitions of Marbury, Crawford, Nate, JYD, Ariza & Q...you're another one that just sees what they want to see...i'm criticizing this 1 move of signing Jerome James & i'm automatically classified as a hater of everything he does...it's ridiculous...it seems this board has become more of an Isiah Lovers haven than a place where people can freely exchange opposing points of view.

What are you talking about TMS. Ive stated that I DON'T LIKE the Jerome James signing BUT, I'm going to rely on people that know more about the game then any person on this board; people like Gregg Popovich and Rick Adelmans and their thoughts/comments about Jerome.

I don't really understand where this "seeing what I want to see" point comes from, I think the Knicks are on their to building something nice, this team right now isn't that good but its good enough to make it into the 1st round of the playoffs, if I was seeing what I wanted to see I'd be seeing the Knicks in the finals which they are nowhere near. The point is Isiah is STARTING to build something.

Another thing, I don't understand how you keep bringing up this point of being "classafied as a hater" obviously when people don't agree with you they are going to say so. do you expect to make a thread just to state your view of a move and then not have any one person respond to it? Just becuase a majority of the people agree with what Isiah is doing doesn't mean that this is a Isiah lovers board.. it's a good sign that the KNOWLEDGABLE fans of the NY Knicks agree with what is going on with the rebuilding. I think this messageboard represents the most knowledgable knicks fans there are and the fact that alot of the people on this board are with Isiah is a great sign for Isiah and the Knicks.

[Edited by - nyk4ever on 07/15/2005 16:53:34]

Isiah has a tendency to make moves just for the sake of making moves instead of making the right moves like signing Pryzbilla over Baker etc. trading for TT & Mo Taylor etc. I don't trust his moves as much as a I trust him as a talent evaluator and his drafting of players. But I'll take the hit or miss moves because he has done a lot more than Layden did in 5 or so long years.

[Edited by - gunsnewing on 07/15/2005 17:45:46]

Posted by nyk4ever:

Posted by TMS:

Posted by nyk4ever:

Posted by TMS:

Posted by djsunyc:

one thing tho - for all the young guys he brought in,

ariza, lee, nate, frye - they're all coachable, young, hungry, and play hard.

but then he brings in mo, vin, and jerome - 3 guys who HISTORICALLY have been lazy, out of shape, or just don't get it.

what i've been saying all day yesterday...but i guess if you don't like some of Isiah's moves (even while you like the others), you're automatically labeled a pessimistic knee jerk reaction hater.

Well when you don't look at the facts that people are presenting to you about having more then half of our roster being between the ages of 18 and 25 and just ignoring this fact, then you can understand why that people are labeling you. Isiah is rebuilding while trying to be competitve and soon 2 more of those guys that are over the age of 25(Penny, TT) are going to be gone as well for a young PF or C so that looks like rebuilding to me.

i've stated time & time again that i was happy w/Isiah's acquisitions of Marbury, Crawford, Nate, JYD, Ariza & Q...you're another one that just sees what they want to see...i'm criticizing this 1 move of signing Jerome James & i'm automatically classified as a hater of everything he does...it's ridiculous...it seems this board has become more of an Isiah Lovers haven than a place where people can freely exchange opposing points of view.

What are you talking about TMS. Ive stated that I DON'T LIKE the Jerome James signing BUT, I'm going to rely on people that know more about the game then any person on this board; people like Gregg Popovich and Rick Adelmans and their thoughts/comments about Jerome.

I don't really understand where this "seeing what I want to see" point comes from, I think the Knicks are on their to building something nice, this team right now isn't that good but its good enough to make it into the 1st round of the playoffs, if I was seeing what I wanted to see I'd be seeing the Knicks in the finals which they are nowhere near. The point is Isiah is STARTING to build something.

Another thing, I don't understand how you keep bringing up this point of being "classafied as a hater" obviously when people don't agree with you they are going to say so. do you expect to make a thread just to state your view of a move and then not have any one person respond to it? Just becuase a majority of the people agree with what Isiah is doing doesn't mean that this is a Isiah lovers board.. it's a good sign that the KNOWLEDGABLE fans of the NY Knicks agree with what is going on with the rebuilding. I think this messageboard represents the most knowledgable knicks fans there are and the fact that alot of the people on this board are with Isiah is a great sign for Isiah and the Knicks.

[Edited by - nyk4ever on 07/15/2005 16:53:34]

That's a great post. I don't get TMS's responses recently. I've posted here and at other forums with TMS and enjoy posting with him. We simply disagree on some points. I don't get where this "hater" stuff is coming from. To me it looks like people generally are respectfully disagreeing with some of TMS's statements. I don't get the "seeing what we want to see" claim either. I don't think people who support or oppose most of Isiah's decisions are simply seeing what they want to see. Most posters here on both sides have been giving good reasons for their views.

There are multiple ways to skin a cat, and multiple ways to get to the finals...Time will tell if we can find one of those ways - No crystal ball, just wait-and-see. And hope. And pray.

Yeah, Ewing probably would have won with a Wade or Bryant...He probably would have won with Spree, even Reggie - But I bet not too many people would have suggested trading Starks after the finals in 94 when his value was at its peak...In hindsight that would have been the moment to get the most back for him while Patrick was a tad younger, maybe

Posted by bobs3304:

Isiah's goal is to build a consistent playoff team. In order to build a championship caliber team, however, he'd have to be willing to scrap the team, and start over. He, as well as Dolan, are not willing to do that. Which is why any team with Dolan and Isiah at the helm will be a 2nd-3rd Round playoff team AT BEST. I don't so much mind that, b/c even Knick teams with Ewing couldn't get past the 1st round. Then again, that was the late 80's. Different league back then.


[Edited by - bobs3304 on 07/15/2005 13:28:33]

The Knicks have been a 2nd-3rd team for the past 30 odd years. What you want is a team that contends every year and then add what you need accordingly. The Knicks now have a mix of youth and easily tradeable assets now and in the future, he has draft picks for the future. What exactly (realistically) IT should have done to make us a Championship contender NOW? Last year this team lost 26 games by 6 points or less. A lot of those close losses came from not getting the defensive stop when we needed to, or not getting that defensive rebound. If we win just half of those games, we're a 46 win team. I feel real good about this team and what IT has done. All we need is for a solid coach to get these guys to play right and we're on our way.