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BRIGGS
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7/14/2005  11:55 AM
Posted by oohah:

[quote]If Kwame really was going to be great why would the Wizards ever let him go?

Why did they let Ben Wallace, Rasheed Wallace, and Chris Webber go?

I don't see a very bright future for Kwame, especially if he really does have a bad attitude. There is no room for anyone's attitude but Kobe's on L.A.

Kwame=Pervis Ellison

oohah

well i guess you are smarter than guys like phil jackson and tex winters
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crzymdups
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7/14/2005  12:03 PM
Posted by BigAppleStar3:


Caron Butler is not better than Quentin Richardson. And just because Andrew Bynum is 7' and athletic, it doesn't mean he'll end up being better than Channing Frye. And why add a lazy quitter like Kwame Brown to our already lazy quitting team? Mark my words and you can hold this against me, Brown will not have a better season or career than Mike Sweetney.

Caron Butler is so much better than Q Rich, it's not even a question. Q is severely limited. He's a horrid shooter, he can't dribble, he can rebound and he's big enough to play D, but doesn't play D very well. He's not a horrible piece, but if you get Kwame Brown for him, you F ing do it. The Wizards players, other than Arenas, liked Kwame - Etan Thomas just came out and supported him.

Personally, I would rather have Bynum and Kwame than Frye and James and Q. I like Frye, but Kwame was a perfect match for him. To me, Bynum and Frye are equal - personally I like Frye better as a player, but a front court of Bynum and Kwame makes a ton of sense, where a frontcourt of JAmes, Frye and Sweetney makes zero sense and probably about 35-38 wins.

This team still has no PF, Frye will be coming off the bench for that slug James now. The Knicks dropped the ball. Big time.


[Edited by - crzymdups on 07/14/2005 12:05:07]
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Silverfuel
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7/14/2005  12:05 PM
Posted by crzymdups:

Caron Butler is so much better than Q Rich, it's not even a question.
If Butler is better than Q then its no surprise the Wizards took LA's offer over NY's.
A journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step.
crzymdups
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7/14/2005  12:10 PM
Posted by Silverfuel:
Posted by crzymdups:

Caron Butler is so much better than Q Rich, it's not even a question.
If Butler is better than Q then its no surprise the Wizards took LA's offer over NY's.

that's a good point. If I was Washington, I'd have taken Butler too. So maybe we never had a shot, but for Kwame, I would have been willing to throw in the Spurs 06 pick.

The way I read this situation is that the Wiz came back at the Knicks Sweetney offer and asked for Q, Zeke said no so they talked to the Lakers.

We dropped the ball.
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Silverfuel
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7/14/2005  12:16 PM
Posted by crzymdups:

The way I read this situation is that the Wiz came back at the Knicks Sweetney offer and asked for Q, Zeke said no so they talked to the Lakers.

We dropped the ball.
If thats what happened then you are justified in saying we messed up. I am not sure thats what happened so I cannot blame Isiah. Atleast he tried. I guess feelings on todays JJ signing come down how highly we thought of Kwame. I see his potential but I would rather not bet on a guy that has not played hard.

JJ is not my first choice or my 4 choice either. I like what Marv said earlier: " Well I've always felt that Jerome James sucks and I still feel that Jerome James sucks. Having said that, I'm glad we signed him." I feel the exact same way.

[Edited by - Silverfuel on 07/14/2005 12:17:16]
A journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step.
crzymdups
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7/14/2005  12:39 PM
We definitely needed a big. But if you're looking for a guy that hasn't played hard in his entire career - it's James. He didn't grab more than 7 rebounds in a regular season game ALL YEAR LAST YEAR. He doesn't have a double digit rebound game in his CAREER, then he gets into the playoffs against a team that waived him, starts playing hard, talks some smack to Brad Miller (who's playing injured at the time) and get a $30 million payday.

Kwame had games of 30pts and 20rebs, 25 pts 13rebs 5blks, 23pts, 14rebs...etc etc etc. I feel like Kwame is more a victim of circumstance and playing with bad teams or guards who wouldn't get him involved (Arenas hates him)...mayeb I'm wrong and James is ready to turn the corner and Kwame is a bitch, but I don't see it...
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oohah
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7/14/2005  12:41 PM
well i guess you are smarter than guys like phil jackson and tex winters

How are you even bringing Tex Winters into this? Last I looked, Phil Jackson wasn't the GM of the Lakers either.

Anyway, the Lakers are just doing what we are doing: Filling a gaping hole at center. If you think they are counting on Kwame to blossom into a star (Possible, but I would bet against it.), then why did they draft Bynum?
Sheed is a head case too but he a little more mature now at 30 years old!

He isn't that much more mature than he used to be. He is still up there in technical and dumb fouls.

In Kwame's best season he was almost as good as Rasheed as a rookie: http://www.nba.com/playerfile/kwame_brown/
http://www.nba.com/playerfile/rasheed_wallace/
Webber still hasn't won anything, isn't he on the least wanted free agent list?

Chris Webber was the franchise player on an excellent team for years. He is a 4 time all-star. His problem is an injury. There is no comparison here.
Hamilton is a good player but not a superstar like people are making Kwame out to be--it's not like if the Wiz had Rip they would have been much better than with Hughes last year. Ben Wallace--he wasn't even drafted, you can't blame the Wiz for not predicting his future success.

I am tired of responding to each "point". Kwame wasn't as good as any of these guys when they played for the Wizards, and they are all better than him now, and if he is gets to be as good as the worst of them he will be a success.

oohah



[Edited by - oohah on 07/14/2005 12:43:41]
Good luck Mike D'Antoni, 'cause you ain't never seen nothing like this before!
Silverfuel
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7/14/2005  12:43 PM
Posted by crzymdups:

We definitely needed a big. But if you're looking for a guy that hasn't played hard in his entire career - it's James. He didn't grab more than 7 rebounds in a regular season game ALL YEAR LAST YEAR. He doesn't have a double digit rebound game in his CAREER, then he gets into the playoffs against a team that waived him, starts playing hard, talks some smack to Brad Miller (who's playing injured at the time) and get a $30 million payday.
I think it will be very hard to find a guy that is high on JJ. I doubt anyone thinks of him as being a star center. Heck, I'd rather have Dampier (not for that price) than JJ. He might work out in the East though.
Kwame had games of 30pts and 20rebs, 25 pts 13rebs 5blks, 23pts, 14rebs...etc etc etc. I feel like Kwame is more a victim of circumstance and playing with bad teams or guards who wouldn't get him involved (Arenas hates him)...
If thats the case then the Lakers got one hell of a guy but I think he will have a harder time in LA. He will play hard for 1 maybe 2 months but then he will go back to his old ways.
A journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step.
BigAppleStar3
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7/14/2005  12:48 PM
Isiah Thomas never offered Quentin Richardson for Kwame Brown. It was a media created bs rumor.
BigAppleStar3
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7/14/2005  12:49 PM
Please let's not compare Kwame Brown to Ben Wallace, Chris Webber, Rasheed Wallace or Rip Hamilton. All 4 of those guys are hard workers. Brown is a lazy bum and who will never become anything special.
jaydh
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7/14/2005  12:55 PM
Posted by BigAppleStar3:

Isiah Thomas never offered Quentin Richardson for Kwame Brown. It was a media created bs rumor.

I agree 100% with that.
Killa4luv
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7/14/2005  1:01 PM
Posted by jaydh:
Posted by BigAppleStar3:

Isiah Thomas never offered Quentin Richardson for Kwame Brown. It was a media created bs rumor.

I agree 100% with that.
Especially since everyone seems to forget that he cannot be traded until like december or something!!!! How could he have offered him?!?!?
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7/14/2005  1:33 PM
Posted by Killa4luv:

Especially since everyone seems to forget that he cannot be traded until like december or something!!!! How could he have offered him?!?!?


You're thinking of the rookies. There is a limit on how soon you can trade a player you just traded for, but it's not that long-- it's more like 30 or somesuch. I don't recall specifics, but I'm fairly certain that Q would be eligible to be traded sometime in August. In any case, he could be traded before the season starts.
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Bonn1997
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7/14/2005  1:37 PM
Posted by tomverve:
Posted by Killa4luv:

Especially since everyone seems to forget that he cannot be traded until like december or something!!!! How could he have offered him?!?!?


You're thinking of the rookies. There is a limit on how soon you can trade a player you just traded for, but it's not that long-- it's more like 30 or somesuch. I don't recall specifics, but I'm fairly certain that Q would be eligible to be traded sometime in August. In any case, he could be traded before the season starts.
it's sixty days. So, he could be traded about seven weeks from now. Q is better than Butler, but the Lakers also included a 1st rd pick in the deal. (I think it was their own, which could easily be late lottery again.) I wouldn't give up Q plus a late lottery pick for Kwame. That was an offer that I'm glad Isiah didn't try to beat.

[Edited by - Bonn1997 on 07/14/2005 13:39:21]
BRIGGS
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7/14/2005  1:48 PM
Posted by oohah:

[quote]well i guess you are smarter than guys like phil jackson and tex winters

How are you even bringing Tex Winters into this? Last I looked, Phil Jackson wasn't the GM of the Lakers either.



OK dude, you're right, Im wrong. Even though Jackson and tex Winters were at both Bynum workouts and this trade happened after Phil came on board, Im sure Phil and tex Winters have had 0 input on it.
Well from 1st hand sources I can tell you that PHIL JACKSON specifically wanted BYNUM aftre his private workout and HE made the call to tell Mitch K to shut down Bynum's workouts down. Yep despite some of the bS media reports, at the end of the day Jackson and Winters made the call on bynum--so Im guessing they also made the huge call on caron for Kwame--
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7/14/2005  1:56 PM
the production that we will get from the combo of Frye and James will be more than sufficient to get us to the second round of the playoffs. With Frye, James will not need to try to block all of the shots, Frye can always come over the top with James just providing good defensive position. This tandem can be very effective is properly used....That is why a guy like Brown or Laimbeer would be the best to coach this group. Brown is currently using that system in Detroit with the Wallace brothers with Prince as the main agressor. Laimbeer played in such system with Detroit, he Rodmand, Mahone and Sally made a living at blocking and defending the paint, he is the next best man to provide that knowledge. We already have Agwire to teach the one on one, now all we need is Laimbeer to further instill it in a system.


[quote]
Posted by crzymdups:

We definitely needed a big. But if you're looking for a guy that hasn't played hard in his entire career - it's James. He didn't grab more than 7 rebounds in a regular season game ALL YEAR LAST YEAR.
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crzymdups
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7/14/2005  1:57 PM
Posted by BRIGGS:
Posted by oohah:

[quote]well i guess you are smarter than guys like phil jackson and tex winters

How are you even bringing Tex Winters into this? Last I looked, Phil Jackson wasn't the GM of the Lakers either.



OK dude, you're right, Im wrong. Even though Jackson and tex Winters were at both Bynum workouts and this trade happened after Phil came on board, Im sure Phil and tex Winters have had 0 input on it.
Well from 1st hand sources I can tell you that PHIL JACKSON specifically wanted BYNUM aftre his private workout and HE made the call to tell Mitch K to shut down Bynum's workouts down. Yep despite some of the bS media reports, at the end of the day Jackson and Winters made the call on bynum--so Im guessing they also made the huge call on caron for Kwame--

Well, supposedly, Phil likes Devean George and Lamar Odom better as swing guys. Devean knows the triangle obviously, is thought by Phil to be the better defender. And it's obvious too why Phil would like Odom in the triangle.

I believe Jackson had plenty of imput on both Bynum and Kwame.

Hey, James can conceivably give us what we need. I'd rather have James for $5 million than Dampier for $10 million. It CAN work, but I think the ceiling on Kwame is very high. ah well, there's no lock that says the Lakers wouldn't have made the Caron and a #1 pick for Kwame offer while we were waiting for Q to be trade-able (60 day rule), so maybe the Wizards take the Lakers offer no matter what. I know if I was a GM, I'd take Butler over Q.
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BRIGGS
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7/14/2005  2:18 PM
Posted by crzymdups:
Posted by BRIGGS:
Posted by oohah:

[quote]well i guess you are smarter than guys like phil jackson and tex winters

How are you even bringing Tex Winters into this? Last I looked, Phil Jackson wasn't the GM of the Lakers either.


Most people would take Caron Butler over Q. I dont care if Im a UC fan, Im just being an NBA fan, Caron is a better player. He's much more versatile on both ends. Hes just as good of a rebounder abetter passer, ballhandler, defender, medium range jump shooter, just as good as Q in the post up. Q is a better 3 pt shot.


OK dude, you're right, Im wrong. Even though Jackson and tex Winters were at both Bynum workouts and this trade happened after Phil came on board, Im sure Phil and tex Winters have had 0 input on it.
Well from 1st hand sources I can tell you that PHIL JACKSON specifically wanted BYNUM aftre his private workout and HE made the call to tell Mitch K to shut down Bynum's workouts down. Yep despite some of the bS media reports, at the end of the day Jackson and Winters made the call on bynum--so Im guessing they also made the huge call on caron for Kwame--

Well, supposedly, Phil likes Devean George and Lamar Odom better as swing guys. Devean knows the triangle obviously, is thought by Phil to be the better defender. And it's obvious too why Phil would like Odom in the triangle.

I believe Jackson had plenty of imput on both Bynum and Kwame.

Hey, James can conceivably give us what we need. I'd rather have James for $5 million than Dampier for $10 million. It CAN work, but I think the ceiling on Kwame is very high. ah well, there's no lock that says the Lakers wouldn't have made the Caron and a #1 pick for Kwame offer while we were waiting for Q to be trade-able (60 day rule), so maybe the Wizards take the Lakers offer no matter what. I know if I was a GM, I'd take Butler over Q.
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s3231
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7/14/2005  2:22 PM
I was never too crazy about the idea of trading Richardson for Kwame straight up. However, I rather would have done that then sign Jerome. BRIGGS is right on this one. As a result of the state we are in, we aren't going to win any championships unless we take risks that might pay off big. Just look at the Lakers and the Knicks. At the end of the season both teams were in pretty much the same position with lottery picks and no one thought these teams had a bright future. This is where we see the difference between the Lakers organization and the Knicks organization though. The Knicks draft Frye who has some upside, but lets face it, he is not franchise talent (I'm not bashing the pick at all because I've grown to like Frye and I think he can be a solid player, but its the truth). The Lakers on the other hand, go for a 17 year old seven foot Center who is still growing. Although he is raw, he has skills and the upside is tremendous.

In free agency, the Knicks decide to go with a 30 year old Center who might possibly help the team now, but won't be a starter on a championship team. The Lakers on the other hand, take another big risk by trading one of their assets in Butler for a tremendous talent in Kwame Brown. No matter what you think about Brown, the guy has never been given a fair shot in my book. So now the Lakers have a frontcourt of Andrew Bynum and Kwame Brown which 3 or 4 years from now might be the best frontcourt in the NBA or one of the worst if everything goes wrong. The Knicks on the other hand have Channing Frye, Mike Sweetney, and Jerome James in the frontcourt which can be a decent frontcourt but its safe to say this frontcourt without changes will never be a championship caliber frontcourt (unless we are sick at the 1,2,and 3, but you get my point).

So now I ask you guys, which team do you think has the brighter future? The Lakers who might possibly win another 3 championships if everything goes right with their young guys or the Knicks who can be a solid team that makes the playoffs every season but will never be good enough for a title right now. Now, I know this offseason isn't over yet and Isiah could still make some great moves. However, this is what we are looking at right now. I'm not saying Isiah has done a bad job at all, I think he has done a good job with this roster so far. However, I don't think he has put us in a position to have a shot at a championship yet. The Lakers who were in pretty much the same position we were(yea they have Kobe, but we were in similar situations), could have a shot at multiple championships. They could also have a shot at being a lottery team year after year. But winners are not afraid to take risks.



[Edited by - s3231 on 07/14/2005 14:24:12]
"This is a very cautious situation that we're in. You have to be conservative in terms of using your assets and using them wisely. We're building for the future." - Zeke (I guess not protecting a first round pick is being conservative)
crzymdups
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7/14/2005  2:35 PM
The Lakers had Kobe Bryant, top five player at worst, Lamar Odom, top 25 player at worst, Caron Butler and the inside track on Phil Jackson. They were in a much better position than us.
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