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Best second unit in the NBA?
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Ray15
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7/10/2005  1:07 AM
I'm just can't wait to see a second unit of Nate, Crawford, Ariza, JYD, Frye...

That is our best defensive unit we can put together with Nate, JYD, Ariza, and Frye's shotblocking ability. This unit should press with the athletes we have on the court. Nate, JYD, Ariza, and Fryes length would cause so many steals. Crawford is quick and should get a ton of steals as well.

That unit can just run the opposition out of the building. Nate or Crawford can push the ball up the floor and they'll be flying above the rim with Nate and Ariza.

Nate can play 1 on defense and play off the ball on offense allowing Crawford to run the show. We have plenty of offense but JYD and Ariza don't need touches which would make this unit so dynamic and effective.

This lineup or a version very close to it should play ALOT of minutes next year.
Defense and Toughness
AUTOADVERT
oohah
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7/10/2005  11:53 AM
Crawford is a terrible defensive player. Channing has yet to become an NBA shot blocker Shot blocking is nice but overrated. Positioning and denial are much more important. Let's see if he can D up Swetney before we call him a defensive player.

Right Now our best defensive team (Which ain't saying much .) is:

Marbury (Until NR proves he can D up in the NBA.)
Q (He sucks on D but nobody is worse than Crawford.)
Tim Thomas
JYD
Big hole at Center

oohah


[Edited by - oohah on 07/10/2005 11:57:08]
Good luck Mike D'Antoni, 'cause you ain't never seen nothing like this before!
rvhoss
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7/10/2005  11:55 AM
to be honest, we have the best second unit in the league because of Rose and JYD as well.
all kool aid all the time.
oohah
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7/10/2005  11:58 AM
to be honest, we have the best second unit in the league because of Rose and JYD as well.

Sarcasm? I think our second unit is the best Starting 5 in the NBDL.

oohah
Good luck Mike D'Antoni, 'cause you ain't never seen nothing like this before!
rvhoss
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7/10/2005  12:02 PM
Posted by oohah:
to be honest, we have the best second unit in the league because of Rose and JYD as well.

Sarcasm? I think our second unit is the best Starting 5 in the NBDL.

oohah

no sarcasm...add those two to the mix and our second unit is by far and away the best.
all kool aid all the time.
Killa4luv
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7/10/2005  1:08 PM
Posted by rvhoss:
Posted by oohah:
to be honest, we have the best second unit in the league because of Rose and JYD as well.

Sarcasm? I think our second unit is the best Starting 5 in the NBDL.

oohah

no sarcasm...add those two to the mix and our second unit is by far and away the best.
Better tan Dtroits?

Milwaukee has
Gadzuric
Desmond Mason
Jiri Welsch
Toni Kukoc
Eric Strickland

Dallas has
Daniels
Devin harris
Bradley
J. Howard
Stackhouse

Our 2nd team is not as good as any of those, ALL of those guys come off the bench.

[Edited by - Killa4luv on 07/10/2005 15:48:26]
rvhoss
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7/10/2005  2:23 PM
yep. better than them
all kool aid all the time.
Marv
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7/10/2005  2:28 PM
I hate to say this but last summer there were the exact same posts here about "the best 2nd unit in the league" being

Houston
Baker
JYD
Moochie
Sweetney
Ariza

Anyone remember those?
roblackman
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7/10/2005  2:47 PM
Seattle has
Gadzuric
Desmond Mason
Jiri Welsch
Toni Kukoc
Eric Strickland

You mean Milwaukee has

Mo Williams
Dez Mason
Jiri Welsch/Kukoc
Zaza Pachulia
Gadz
And the reply is...a post that makes sense (still waiting)
Ray15
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7/10/2005  3:43 PM
Posted by oohah:

Crawford is a terrible defensive player. Channing has yet to become an NBA shot blocker Shot blocking is nice but overrated. Positioning and denial are much more important. Let's see if he can D up Swetney before we call him a defensive player.

Right Now our best defensive team (Which ain't saying much .) is:

Marbury (Until NR proves he can D up in the NBA.)
Q (He sucks on D but nobody is worse than Crawford.)
Tim Thomas
JYD
Big hole at Center

oohah


[Edited by - oohah on 07/10/2005 11:57:08]


You are crazy if you think Tim Thomas is a better defender than Ariza. How is Marbury a better defender than Nate? Nate has shown that he is willing to take charges, throw the 1 man press on, and really get after people. He has the bulk to make up for his size.

Our best defensive unit would be Nate, Ariza, JYD, Rose, ??? (probably whoever we sign with the MLE)

Crawford is not a great defender in the half court set because he hasn't learned to play against bigger guys like Richard Hamilton does. However, he can be exactly like Larry Hughes on defense -- really get in passing lanes and cause alot of steals. This is why I want him in that second unit because if we're pressing he would be great because he's long and very quick. Good coaches implement systems that their players can thrive in and this defensive system, with the players around him (Nate, Ariza, JYD), will allow Crawford to really make some things happen on the defensive side of the ball.

Shotblocking is very important, especially if you are as weak as we are with perimeter defense. First off, if you have a shotblocker in the paint, it allows your perimeter guys to play tighter and be more aggressive going for steals. Look what happened to us last year when we had no perimeter defense and no shotblocker inside. Now, we will eventually need both which is why I want Badsen, but until then, a shotblocker will help us tremendously.
Defense and Toughness
djsunyc
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7/10/2005  4:17 PM
best? nope.

quickest and fastest? probably.
oohah
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7/10/2005  6:02 PM
You are crazy if you think Tim Thomas is a better defender than Ariza.

I don't, I just forgot Ariza at the time I composed the list:

New List:
Marbury
TT or Q, take your pick.
JYD
Ariza
Big Hole at Center
How is Marbury a better defender than Nate? Nate has shown that he is willing to take charges, throw the 1 man press on, and really get after people. He has the bulk to make up for his size.

A better question would be: How is Nate a better defender than Marbury considering he hasn't yet played in the NBA? The answer would be: Noone can say, nobody knows yet. You are basing your opinion on Nate's excellent Summer League and (maybe) his college play, not one minute of NBA action. By the way, his excellent defensive play in the Summer League is a revelation for many because he was not considered a "stopper" or "defensive specialist" coming out of college. And there may be a reason for that, because yesterday a 6'3" guard named Fitch gave him a lot of trouble for stretch.

Remember, the guards in the NBA that Nate will be seeing will be much bigger, better, and stronger than what he is seeing now. He will take plenty of lumps as he matures in the NBA. Let's discuss this point again in mid-Novemeber.
Crawford is not a great defender in the half court set because he hasn't learned to play against bigger guys like Richard Hamilton does.

That is an understatement, he is a well below average half court defensive player.
However, he can be exactly like Larry Hughes on defense -- really get in passing lanes and cause alot of steals.

That is why Larry Hughes is overrated and Washington let him go. He gets a lot of steals but he doesn't play very "solid defense" (Way better than Jamal Crawford though.)

Solid Defense is forcing a team to take a poor shot and then claiming the rebound. Steals are nice and they can change a game at crucial moments. Don't get too caught up in steals numbers.
This is why I want him in that second unit because if we're pressing he would be great because he's long and very quick.

Yes, this is a possibility and JC does have what it takes to be a good steals man.
Good coaches implement systems that their players can thrive in and this defensive system, with the players around him (Nate, Ariza, JYD), will allow Crawford to really make some things happen on the defensive side of the ball.

Good coaches do suit their system to their players. Good coaches also realize that creating a system that depends on the "glamour plays" of defense do not a champion make.
Shotblocking is very important, especially if you are as weak as we are with perimeter defense. First off, if you have a shotblocker in the paint, it allows your perimeter guys to play tighter and be more aggressive going for steals. Look what happened to us last year when we had no perimeter defense and no shotblocker inside. Now, we will eventually need both which is why I want Badsen, but until then, a shotblocker will help us tremendously.

I do understand the role of shotblocking rather well, and it is not as critical as you would make it out to be. Shotblocking is what comes into play when your Solid Defense fails. I would rather try to shore up our perimeter defense. If your defense is always "going for steals" then your shotblockers will hate your perimeter defensive players. And once a good offensive team realizes you are "playing for shot blocks" you are dead.

But I will say this: having a good shotblocker is a wonderful luxury that I would like to have.


oohah

Good luck Mike D'Antoni, 'cause you ain't never seen nothing like this before!
BRIGGS
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7/10/2005  6:37 PM
Id like to see us bring in Eddie Badsen. he was an impact defender in college, he has played to the same level at thr pre-draft camps and in the SL--he reminds me of a more athletic version of Bruce Bowen about the same size. He actually puts up pretty good numbers on the offense, but this is the kind of guy that helps wins games--not every player can be a flashy type. You need stoppers and Badsen is a stooper at the 2-3 who can score and reboudn as well.

We need some defensive orientated players--all the good teams have them-we have JYD, but JYD is also caught in a bad position on this club. But when we played well, it was guys like Ariza and JYD helping the charge. I look at Basden as a new wave Bowen, and thats one facet we need.
RIP Crushalot😞
BRIGGS
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7/10/2005  7:03 PM
[quote]
Posted by oohah:

Crawford is a terrible defensive player. Channing has yet to become an NBA shot blocker Shot blocking is nice but overrated. Positioning and denial are much more important. Let's see if he can D up Swetney before we call him a defensive player.

Right Now our best defensive team (Which ain't saying much .) is:

Marbury (Until NR proves he can D up in the NBA.)
Q (He sucks on D but nobody is worse than Crawford.)
Tim Thomas
JYD
Big hole at Center

oohah


Shot blocking not impratnt? Name me a an NBA team that has won a championship in the last 10 years without a solid shot blocker. Uconn's defense is built around a shot blocking and so is San Antonio's. No shot blocking isnt over rated, its under rated. steals are over rated
RIP Crushalot😞
Ray15
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7/10/2005  7:59 PM
in response to oohah...

Marbury could be a good defender but to this point in his career he just hasn't showed anything. With the depth we have at the guard positions, I don't think Marbury should play more than 32 mpg. He wont need to conserve energy throughout the game and therefore can really go all out on both sides of the ball. He can get after people on defense and he will be able to push the ball up and down the court. Will a guy like Marbury be able to and more importantly willing to make a dramatic change like this when he is at the peak of his career? Who knows -- but its something that needs to be done if we are going to start winning ball games.

With that being said, Nate creates disruption. In college and in the summer league he is a pest on the defensive side of the ball. He puts effort into defense and he is so disruptive ala Earl Boykins which makes him a good defender. Whenever he is in the game, he'll probably put a 1 man press on and just that energy will help our team defense so much because it will take the opposition longer to set up their offense and it will create more turnovers. He has the bulk to make up for his size which is why he'll be an above average defender in the NBA. Isiah has even said that he is going to be incredible on the defensive side of the ball. That is why in my opinion he is better than Marbury.

As for what you called "glamour defensive plays", I'll remind you that this is a SECOND UNIT. This pressing defense will create major disruption, cause turnovers, change the tone and intensity of the entire game. This is what second units are supposed to do -- create disturbance and sparks off the bench, bring energy. Of course you can't have this as your primary defensive scheme but for our second unit, this would fit perfectly.


Most importantly, I feel that this second unit has the ability, potential, and personality to OVERACHIEVE. We have underachieved as a team for years and that is because of coaching, toughness, and defensive play. Look at teams like the Sonics this year -- we had much more talent than them but Nate got them to buy into a defensive system that works and he had everybody playing tough. Collison and Ridnour fit into that team concept perfectly and that was a classic example of a team overachieving. Now, with the pieces Isiah has added, I feel like we have that potential. He added guys with ****iness, a mean streak, and toughness. Guys like Nate and Q especially have already been vocal and talking about getting back to a tough style of play. This is why I think our second unit could turn out to be one of the best in the NBA -- if they gel correctly and overachieve, they will be a unit that nobody wants to face.
Defense and Toughness
TheloniusMonk
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7/10/2005  8:21 PM
Posted by BRIGGS:

[quote]
Posted by oohah:

Crawford is a terrible defensive player. Channing has yet to become an NBA shot blocker Shot blocking is nice but overrated. Positioning and denial are much more important. Let's see if he can D up Swetney before we call him a defensive player.

Right Now our best defensive team (Which ain't saying much .) is:

Marbury (Until NR proves he can D up in the NBA.)
Q (He sucks on D but nobody is worse than Crawford.)
Tim Thomas
JYD
Big hole at Center

oohah


Shot blocking not impratnt? Name me a an NBA team that has won a championship in the last 10 years without a solid shot blocker. Uconn's defense is built around a shot blocking and so is San Antonio's. No shot blocking isnt over rated, its under rated. steals are over rated

Chicago Bulls
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oohah
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7/10/2005  9:02 PM
Marbury could be a good defender but to this point in his career he just hasn't showed anything. With the depth we have at the guard positions, I don't think Marbury should play more than 32 mpg. He wont need to conserve energy throughout the game and therefore can really go all out on both sides of the ball. He can get after people on defense and he will be able to push the ball up and down the court. Will a guy like Marbury be able to and more importantly willing to make a dramatic change like this when he is at the peak of his career? Who knows -- but its something that needs to be done if we are going to start winning ball games.

Depth or no depth Marbury is a 40 MPG man. Let Q, Craw, and Robinson, (and TT and Houston for that matter) split the remaing 56 minutes plus some small forward minutes.
With that being said, Nate creates disruption. In college and in the summer league he is a pest on the defensive side of the ball. He puts effort into defense and he is so disruptive ala Earl Boykins which makes him a good defender. Whenever he is in the game, he'll probably put a 1 man press on and just that energy will help our team defense so much because it will take the opposition longer to set up their offense and it will create more turnovers. He has the bulk to make up for his size which is why he'll be an above average defender in the NBA. Isiah has even said that he is going to be incredible on the defensive side of the ball. That is why in my opinion he is better than Marbury.

I think he will be very good defensive player too. NR's bulk and strength will help but he will always be vulnerable to the big boys. No amount of width can make of for being short...even spectacular jumping ability can't do it. Sometimes it just pays to be tall in the NBA. It is a tall man's sport!
As for what you called "glamour defensive plays", I'll remind you that this is a SECOND UNIT. This pressing defense will create major disruption, cause turnovers, change the tone and intensity of the entire game. This is what second units are supposed to do -- create disturbance and sparks off the bench, bring energy. Of course you can't have this as your primary defensive scheme but for our second unit, this would fit perfectly.

Wouldn't that be lovely.
Most importantly, I feel that this second unit has the ability, potential, and personality to OVERACHIEVE. We have underachieved as a team for years and that is because of coaching, toughness, and defensive play. Look at teams like the Sonics this year -- we had much more talent than them but Nate got them to buy into a defensive system that works and he had everybody playing tough. Collison and Ridnour fit into that team concept perfectly and that was a classic example of a team overachieving. Now, with the pieces Isiah has added, I feel like we have that potential. He added guys with ****iness, a mean streak, and toughness. Guys like Nate and Q especially have already been vocal and talking about getting back to a tough style of play. This is why I think our second unit could turn out to be one of the best in the NBA -- if they gel correctly and overachieve, they will be a unit that nobody wants to face.

From your keyboard to God's ears.

oohah





[Edited by - oohah on 07/10/2005 21:04:19]
Good luck Mike D'Antoni, 'cause you ain't never seen nothing like this before!
oohah
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7/10/2005  9:29 PM
Shot blocking not impratnt? Name me a an NBA team that has won a championship in the last 10 years without a solid shot blocker.

TheloniusMonk already did--Chicago...they did 6 times, many of those occured in the last decade.
Uconn's defense is built around a shot blocking and so is San Antonio's.

I think you are confusing having a good shot blocker(s) with building your team around shot blockers. Uconn and San Antonio are both excellent "Solid Defense" teams (San Antonio in the half court, Uconn more of an end to end defensive squad at times.) who have good shot blockers to bail them out at the rim when all else fails. What a luxury! That is why you can't "build around shot blocking " because shot blocking is the last resort of a defense. It means you have been beaten.
No shot blocking isnt over rated, its under rated. steals are over rated

Steals are definitely overrated. I think shot-intimidating that is derived from blocks is more important that the actual shot blocks that are made.

I hope Channing Frye averages 4+ blocks per game...blocks are entertaining.

oohah
Good luck Mike D'Antoni, 'cause you ain't never seen nothing like this before!
Best second unit in the NBA?

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