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A cautionary tale for those who like Steven Hunter
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VDesai
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7/5/2005  10:41 AM
http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/players/2655/career

Once upon a time there was a center named Jim McIlvaine, who remarkably blocked 2.1 shots in 14.9 mins for Washington, and was rewarded with a rich, multiyear contract around 7 years, 35 million. McIlvaine had no offensive game and was basically a 15 mpg player, but the contract given to him was banking on the fact that he'd be greater. Only a year or two later, it was considered one of the bigger front office blunders in the NBA, and McIlvaine was later dumped on the Nets. The Nets finally bought him out with 2 years remaining on his contract.

So what does this have to do with Hunter? Hunter, like McIlvaine, has thus far been a player with pretty remarkable blocks per 48 minute numbers (though slightly worse overall than McIlvaine's), but also a player with a very limited offensive game and one that has only played 13-14 mins per. It's widely considered that last year was a breakthrough year for him on Phoenix, and while shot an impressive 61% from the field, it came on fewer than 3 shot attempts per game. In fact the rest of his game hardly improved from his days on the Orlando Magic, where he was considered a draft bust, and was basically a throw in to a trade to Cleveland, where he ultimately wasn't wanted by the Cavs and was waived.

A quick look at this stats show his rebounding and shotblocking hardly changed from his days in Pho vs. Orlando...

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/players/3525

So was last year really a breakthrough year for Hunter, or did a year playing for a flashy, athletic and most importantly winning team cause his stock to rise so far that a player who was waived last year is one who is being talked about as a candidate to the full MLE?

Hunter could very well be a good gamble on upside, but giving him a huge contract could be asking him to become something he's not. Be wary of past mistakes like the one made on McIlvaine.

[Edited by - VDesai on 07/05/2005 10:49:46]
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Bonn1997
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7/5/2005  10:46 AM
I don't know anything about this other guy, but it looks like a good example. I definitely don't mind adding Hunter, but he should be remote backup plan if many other PF/Cs with a better skill set are unavailable (Dalembert, Chandler, Curry if healthy, Kwame, Gadzuric, Chris Anderson).
eViL
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7/5/2005  10:57 AM
That's an interesting post, V. I remember McIlvaine - I think you might be on to something with this one.
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crzymdups
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7/5/2005  10:57 AM
Posted by Bonn1997:

I don't know anything about this other guy, but it looks like a good example. I definitely don't mind adding Hunter, but he should be remote backup plan if many other PF/Cs with a better skill set are unavailable (Dalembert, Chandler, Curry if healthy, Kwame, Gadzuric, Chris Anderson).

Andresen, Dalembert, Chandler, Gadzuric and Curry aren't available to us. So that leaves Kwame.

Hunter is so much more athletic than McIlivane that this comparison feels somehow...off. This is like comparing Wesley Person to Jamal Crawford. Different players. Different skill sets.
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VDesai
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7/5/2005  11:04 AM
Posted by crzymdups:
Posted by Bonn1997:

I don't know anything about this other guy, but it looks like a good example. I definitely don't mind adding Hunter, but he should be remote backup plan if many other PF/Cs with a better skill set are unavailable (Dalembert, Chandler, Curry if healthy, Kwame, Gadzuric, Chris Anderson).

Andresen, Dalembert, Chandler, Gadzuric and Curry aren't available to us. So that leaves Kwame.

Hunter is so much more athletic than McIlivane that this comparison feels somehow...off. This is like comparing Wesley Person to Jamal Crawford. Different players. Different skill sets.

Hunter is more athletic than McIlvaine was, but McIlvaine was a superior shotblocker and was on the right side of 50% on FT's. Both have serious flaws to their game outside of shotblocking. Neither could play on the offensive end. I don't see how they had different skill sets. So Hunter got a few extra dunks this year in a very potent offense? Other than that his game didn't develop much from the player who was waived last year. The numbers flesh it out.

2003: 13.6 mins, 40.9 FT, 0.2 aats, 2.8 rebs, 1.1 blocks
2004: 13.4 mins, 33.3 FT, 0.2 asts, 2.9 rebs, 1.2 blocks
2005: 13.8 mins, 47.9 FT, 0.2 asts, 3.0 rebs, 1.3 blocks



[Edited by - VDesai on 07/05/2005 11:05:30]

[Edited by - VDesai on 07/05/2005 11:05:49]

[Edited by - VDesai on 07/05/2005 11:21:21]
fishmike
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7/5/2005  11:18 AM
McIlvaine was a bad move and everyone knew it. That contract send Kemp over the edge because this lame white stiff with no skills was getting paid more than the rain man. Kemp was then traded to Cle where he got fat.

I like Hunter. I see him as a hardworking very long athletic center. He's got no jumper and has bad hands. I think we are looking in the 3 year $10-$12mm rang at the most.
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TMS
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7/5/2005  11:19 AM
hey, Mikki Moore is an athletic 7 footer...let's sign him to the MLE!

ridiculous.
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fishmike
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7/5/2005  11:21 AM
I think we are looking in the 3 year $10-$12mm rang at the most.

We need size. Hunter would be a good bench player for us in exactly the role he plays in Pho. 15-1 minutes off the bench behind Frye
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TMS
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7/5/2005  11:24 AM
Posted by fishmike:

I think we are looking in the 3 year $10-$12mm rang at the most.

We need size. Hunter would be a good bench player for us in exactly the role he plays in Pho. 15-1 minutes off the bench behind Frye

a LLE contract is all i would give up for him...otherwise, i say forget it...i'm not using any portion of the MLE to sign this guy & ruin any chance of signing someone better w/it.
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crzymdups
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7/5/2005  11:24 AM
Posted by TMS:

hey, Mikki Moore is an athletic 7 footer...let's sign him to the MLE!

ridiculous.

Stephen Hunter will look a lot more attractive when the pipe dreams of Curry, Zydrunas, Stromile, Dalembert, Chandler, and Kwame join the pipe dreams of summers past. None of the fictional characters will ever come to New York. Stromile Swift visiting New York is the same thing as Chris Webber visiting the Big Apple in 2001 - it's a free lunch and tour around the city in a limo. Every Free Agent should get one of those. Then they go take more money from some other team, usually their original team.

When all those guys are signed to $10 million a season, come back and tell me how ridiculous $3-4 million is for Stephen Hunter.
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TMS
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7/5/2005  11:26 AM
it's ridiculous any way you look at it when you can find guys like him coming undrafted out of college or playing in the NBDL & sign them to veteran's minimum contracts...but hey, why save money when you can overpay for mediocre talent? that's been our mantra for the past several years.
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Killa4luv
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7/5/2005  11:26 AM
Steven Hunter and 'skill set' should never be within 20 words of each other.

Having said that, I am very confident that Zeke knows that anything more than 3 million per is a mistake for Hunter. Even the 3 million itself could be looked at as a mistake.

But to get him for 3 mill or less, as a backup, running with our 2nd unit with Nate, seems sensible to me. He'd be a great backup, and thats all anyone here wants him for. He is nobody's starter.
crzymdups
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7/5/2005  11:26 AM
Posted by TMS:
Posted by fishmike:

I think we are looking in the 3 year $10-$12mm rang at the most.

We need size. Hunter would be a good bench player for us in exactly the role he plays in Pho. 15-1 minutes off the bench behind Frye

a LLE contract is all i would give up for him...otherwise, i say forget it...i'm not using any portion of the MLE to sign this guy & ruin any chance of signing someone better w/it.

a LLE contract won't get him away from Phoenix. And who exactly do you want to sign for the MLE? Antoine Walker?!? No one else will come to New York for the MLE.

Let me say it again: Pipe. Dreams.
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TMS
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7/5/2005  11:28 AM
Posted by crzymdups:
Posted by TMS:
Posted by fishmike:

I think we are looking in the 3 year $10-$12mm rang at the most.

We need size. Hunter would be a good bench player for us in exactly the role he plays in Pho. 15-1 minutes off the bench behind Frye

a LLE contract is all i would give up for him...otherwise, i say forget it...i'm not using any portion of the MLE to sign this guy & ruin any chance of signing someone better w/it.

a LLE contract won't get him away from Phoenix. And who exactly do you want to sign for the MLE? Antoine Walker?!? No one else will come to New York for the MLE.

Let me say it again: Pipe. Dreams.

i thought i just said LLE contract, or else forget it? go w/the talent we have, sign a guy who was undrafted or check out some guys from the developmental leagues (a-la Jackie Butler) & see what you have...wasting any portion of the MLE on a guy like Hunter is just stupidity.
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VDesai
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7/5/2005  11:30 AM
Posted by fishmike:

I think we are looking in the 3 year $10-$12mm rang at the most.

We need size. Hunter would be a good bench player for us in exactly the role he plays in Pho. 15-1 minutes off the bench behind Frye
3 years 10 mil is certainly more palatable than the MLE, but its still probably overpaying for a guy who was waived last year, and really didn't improve that much as a player this year. I understand, gamble on upside and size, but this guy is very raw and one dimensional at this point.

It's not just the big names like Chandler, Stro, Curry, Dalembert, Kwame being a better option, but guys like Gadzuric, Chris Andersen, Pachulia, Griffin etc. are better options.
Knicksfan
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7/5/2005  11:41 AM
Posted by fishmike:

I think we are looking in the 3 year $10-$12mm rang at the most.

We need size. Hunter would be a good bench player for us in exactly the role he plays in Pho. 15-1 minutes off the bench behind Frye

Good point. Hey, you don't sign Hunter to be your future starter at center. You sign him because you need size, you need shotblocking, and you need a real backup C. He is that, so at the right price he is a good signing...
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diderotn
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7/5/2005  11:41 AM
EVeryone currently on the Knicks roster are overpaid in my opinion. Beside Rose, none of them have earned a championship ring. Given 3 millions to a guy like hunter who is still 23 and very athletic is not a mistake. He would serve us a much better purpose than the overpaid: JYD, Mo T, Crawff, HOuston, Penny, TT, and many others....

offer the kid 3 millions for 5 years to show him that we are commited and if he fails, we can always get rid of him. It is much easier to trade a 7'guy with $3 million than one with a $6 million
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simrud
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7/5/2005  11:49 AM
Anything more then the LLE is absurd.

This guy played on a team WITHOUT A CENTER and he could not get the starting job, or even earn significant minutes on a regular basis, let alone put up good numbers other then blocked shots.

A glimmer of hope maybe?!?
Pharzeone
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7/5/2005  12:46 PM
Posted by fishmike:

McIlvaine was a bad move and everyone knew it. That contract send Kemp over the edge because this lame white stiff with no skills was getting paid more than the rain man. Kemp was then traded to Cle where he got fat.

I like Hunter. I see him as a hardworking very long athletic center. He's got no jumper and has bad hands. I think we are looking in the 3 year $10-$12mm rang at the most.
I don't like Hunter but I don't see the McIlvaine comparison either. Unseld wasn't the sharpest GM. He tried to do many things to combat the fact that Ewing and then a young O'Neal was in his division. MCIivaine also had serious foot injuries that limited his career. Hunter will be getting his money based on potential.
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BigRedDog
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7/5/2005  1:44 PM
Posted by fishmike:


I like Hunter. He's got no jumper and has bad hands.

Great combination. Lets get him. Where do I sign?
fishmike 9/27/2024 11:00 PM Ug I hate this. The idea of Towns is great until you see what a pussy he is. Jules is a dog. DD was a flamethrower locked up cheap for 3 more years. First Leon move I hate
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A cautionary tale for those who like Steven Hunter
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