mlby1215 wrote:

arkrud wrote:

mlby1215 wrote:Purpose? Saving Mills' ass is the purpose. Mills always win and everyone has to take the hit for him. He could blame everything on his boss (Phil), or his player(KP), or someone working for him (Jeff Hornacek or fiz). If a player is signed too expensive, it was Phil. If a young bright player got traded, it was because he wanted out. If the team did't play well, it was on the coaches. Rambis, Jeff, and Fiz. It is quite amazing Mills business "experience" can get him that far. The one who played and breathed bball were always wrong, and Mills is somewhat "refreshing" new hope for the team. He represents the new era. Thanks god the triangle finally has gone. lol

I think you nailed it.
It is amazing that even fans like knick1280 who hates Mils are going for his dirty corporate tricks.
They think Fiz will be gone and then Mills will follow.
It does not work like this in corporate world.
So to me firing Fiz has no good reasons, only twisted ones.

One difference between Phil and Mills is the age. You can argue Phil sucked, but he was too old to stay here long term. He would be gone very soon. But Mills is not, he looks like he still has 20 years to live, at least.

People think Mills would get fired so think again. If Dolan would do so, he would have done it long long time ago. If he fired Mills, it would mean "he didn't hire the best people". Dolan is very prideful. It is not possible. Unless Mills get him angered somehow.

Knicks fans should have known better. Keeping Phil was not about Phil, but all about getting away from Mills (or other Dolan boys) It was the only chance to get away from Dolan's influence. If Phil didn't get fired, he would retire now and Gaines Jr. would take his place.

I was very angry and very sad the day Phil Jackson got fired. It was not because I blindly worship him, but I knew the only chance putting the team back to professionals was gone. Phil Jackson could have many flaws but at least he KNEW bballs. Mills? I even don't know what he is made of. I would not surprised one day it is revealed that Dolan is gay and Mills is his secret lover all along.

If you read up on Clarence “Little House” Gaines you’d know he is a very different kind of dude. I read Phil trusts his basketball acumen but look up his career. I read he has some form of personality disorder on the social end. I don’t know the man and this is not a slam against him, its what I read. Thus he could never a coach let alone a public type job. I agree with most of your sentiments and while Phil was far for accomplished he was in the middle of his tenure. As per the norm, panic ensues and changes are made in the face of public discourse. Sometimes its not what Dolan does, its when he does it.

I’d think that Mills was going to be there to carry on after Phil retired. Its a guess. Otherwise Mills might have left after he was pushed aside. Also while Phil was president and mills the GM I think the roles were sort of reversed. There is a lot that. Team president does besides basketball personal decisions. Grunwald carried a lot of that when Isiah was president and coach.

My guess is Dolan would have demanded that if we did not sign “stars” we at least improve even if we tread water with one year deals. This talent acquisition off season last summer would be on Perry. MIlls has to approve it. Whose directive? We don’t know. Maybe mills told Dolan “KP was a set back, yoot is raw, we gonna have a rough year again. Fiz was hired to attract and work with the potential “stars”.” Dolan could have said “is there a temporary way to get better without killing the future?” They then turn to Perry who might have “ideas”. Is this a fireable offense for Perry? For Mill? If you are a frustrated fan tired of years of this yeah. Knicks are getting pushback and Fiz sympathy for his removal. Knicks were at 4-19 are in a tough place!!! Very tough!

Nalod wrote:

mlby1215 wrote:

arkrud wrote:

mlby1215 wrote:Purpose? Saving Mills' ass is the purpose. Mills always win and everyone has to take the hit for him. He could blame everything on his boss (Phil), or his player(KP), or someone working for him (Jeff Hornacek or fiz). If a player is signed too expensive, it was Phil. If a young bright player got traded, it was because he wanted out. If the team did't play well, it was on the coaches. Rambis, Jeff, and Fiz. It is quite amazing Mills business "experience" can get him that far. The one who played and breathed bball were always wrong, and Mills is somewhat "refreshing" new hope for the team. He represents the new era. Thanks god the triangle finally has gone. lol

I think you nailed it.
It is amazing that even fans like knick1280 who hates Mils are going for his dirty corporate tricks.
They think Fiz will be gone and then Mills will follow.
It does not work like this in corporate world.
So to me firing Fiz has no good reasons, only twisted ones.

One difference between Phil and Mills is the age. You can argue Phil sucked, but he was too old to stay here long term. He would be gone very soon. But Mills is not, he looks like he still has 20 years to live, at least.

People think Mills would get fired so think again. If Dolan would do so, he would have done it long long time ago. If he fired Mills, it would mean "he didn't hire the best people". Dolan is very prideful. It is not possible. Unless Mills get him angered somehow.

Knicks fans should have known better. Keeping Phil was not about Phil, but all about getting away from Mills (or other Dolan boys) It was the only chance to get away from Dolan's influence. If Phil didn't get fired, he would retire now and Gaines Jr. would take his place.

I was very angry and very sad the day Phil Jackson got fired. It was not because I blindly worship him, but I knew the only chance putting the team back to professionals was gone. Phil Jackson could have many flaws but at least he KNEW bballs. Mills? I even don't know what he is made of. I would not surprised one day it is revealed that Dolan is gay and Mills is his secret lover all along.

If you read up on Clarence “Little House” Gaines you’d know he is a very different kind of dude. I read Phil trusts his basketball acumen but look up his career. I read he has some form of personality disorder on the social end. I don’t know the man and this is not a slam against him, its what I read. Thus he could never a coach let alone a public type job. I agree with most of your sentiments and while Phil was far for accomplished he was in the middle of his tenure. As per the norm, panic ensues and changes are made in the face of public discourse. Sometimes its not what Dolan does, its when he does it.

I’d think that Mills was going to be there to carry on after Phil retired. Its a guess. Otherwise Mills might have left after he was pushed aside. Also while Phil was president and mills the GM I think the roles were sort of reversed. There is a lot that. Team president does besides basketball personal decisions. Grunwald carried a lot of that when Isiah was president and coach.

My guess is Dolan would have demanded that if we did not sign “stars” we at least improve even if we tread water with one year deals. This talent acquisition off season last summer would be on Perry. MIlls has to approve it. Whose directive? We don’t know. Maybe mills told Dolan “KP was a set back, yoot is raw, we gonna have a rough year again. Fiz was hired to attract and work with the potential “stars”.” Dolan could have said “is there a temporary way to get better without killing the future?” They then turn to Perry who might have “ideas”. Is this a fireable offense for Perry? For Mill? If you are a frustrated fan tired of years of this yeah. Knicks are getting pushback and Fiz sympathy for his removal. Knicks were at 4-19 are in a tough place!!! Very tough!

Everyone in this world has flaws, and it is all about utilizing his advantages. It would be perfect someone has no weakness but it is not possible. So the one making decisions has to take the good with the bad. If you have Stephen Curry then you have got to come up a plan to hide his weakness on defense. Of course we can choose to throw him away but elite PGs don't grow on trees.

It is the same when it comes about the talent in management. Obviously Gaines Jr has difficulty on finding friends in a small circle, but could it be said about Patrick Ewing? Patrick Ewing couldn't find a job as a head coach doesn't mean he does not deserve to have it. Gaines Jr would be 1000x better than Mills as someone going to make bball decisions.

How Knicks operates inside we may never have a proof but we can always know it. Dolan makes the final decision. Dolan once said he fired Phil Jackson because he drafted Frank instead of DSJr. It is a foolish thing to say but it shows you have got to draft the "right guy" to have a job under Dolan. If Dolan wants someone, then you have got to draft that guy.

But Media always assumed Phil made all decisions because he was bad to their business. Media always need a leaker, or else they simply are just irrelevant. If Media doesn't know something unique, then we can just go to read everything posted on Knicks official site. It would make no difference.

Phil was not a leaker. He refused to use inside gossips to trade for some media friends to defend him. So he was gone. Everything he did or didn't do was bad, BAD, BADDDDD. It was also part of the reason they went relatively easy on Mills. They simply cannot admit they indirectly destroyed the only hope of turning Knicks into a professional bball club rather than Dolan's personal toy.

He did not get a fair shake, but who cares. Mills is trying to save face infront of Dolan. Mills is going to try and blame this all on bad coaching.
Not Fizdale's fault they traded away an all-star Center for a backup point guard. Not his fault, they can't sign Kyrie or Kemba even though they are the biggest market in all of sports.

Nalod wrote:

mlby1215 wrote:

Nalod wrote:

mlby1215 wrote:

arkrud wrote:

mlby1215 wrote:Purpose? Saving Mills' ass is the purpose. Mills always win and everyone has to take the hit for him. He could blame everything on his boss (Phil), or his player(KP), or someone working for him (Jeff Hornacek or fiz). If a player is signed too expensive, it was Phil. If a young bright player got traded, it was because he wanted out. If the team did't play well, it was on the coaches. Rambis, Jeff, and Fiz. It is quite amazing Mills business "experience" can get him that far. The one who played and breathed bball were always wrong, and Mills is somewhat "refreshing" new hope for the team. He represents the new era. Thanks god the triangle finally has gone. lol

I think you nailed it.
It is amazing that even fans like knick1280 who hates Mils are going for his dirty corporate tricks.
They think Fiz will be gone and then Mills will follow.
It does not work like this in corporate world.
So to me firing Fiz has no good reasons, only twisted ones.

One difference between Phil and Mills is the age. You can argue Phil sucked, but he was too old to stay here long term. He would be gone very soon. But Mills is not, he looks like he still has 20 years to live, at least.

People think Mills would get fired so think again. If Dolan would do so, he would have done it long long time ago. If he fired Mills, it would mean "he didn't hire the best people". Dolan is very prideful. It is not possible. Unless Mills get him angered somehow.

Knicks fans should have known better. Keeping Phil was not about Phil, but all about getting away from Mills (or other Dolan boys) It was the only chance to get away from Dolan's influence. If Phil didn't get fired, he would retire now and Gaines Jr. would take his place.

I was very angry and very sad the day Phil Jackson got fired. It was not because I blindly worship him, but I knew the only chance putting the team back to professionals was gone. Phil Jackson could have many flaws but at least he KNEW bballs. Mills? I even don't know what he is made of. I would not surprised one day it is revealed that Dolan is gay and Mills is his secret lover all along.

If you read up on Clarence “Little House” Gaines you’d know he is a very different kind of dude. I read Phil trusts his basketball acumen but look up his career. I read he has some form of personality disorder on the social end. I don’t know the man and this is not a slam against him, its what I read. Thus he could never a coach let alone a public type job. I agree with most of your sentiments and while Phil was far for accomplished he was in the middle of his tenure. As per the norm, panic ensues and changes are made in the face of public discourse. Sometimes its not what Dolan does, its when he does it.

I’d think that Mills was going to be there to carry on after Phil retired. Its a guess. Otherwise Mills might have left after he was pushed aside. Also while Phil was president and mills the GM I think the roles were sort of reversed. There is a lot that. Team president does besides basketball personal decisions. Grunwald carried a lot of that when Isiah was president and coach.

My guess is Dolan would have demanded that if we did not sign “stars” we at least improve even if we tread water with one year deals. This talent acquisition off season last summer would be on Perry. MIlls has to approve it. Whose directive? We don’t know. Maybe mills told Dolan “KP was a set back, yoot is raw, we gonna have a rough year again. Fiz was hired to attract and work with the potential “stars”.” Dolan could have said “is there a temporary way to get better without killing the future?” They then turn to Perry who might have “ideas”. Is this a fireable offense for Perry? For Mill? If you are a frustrated fan tired of years of this yeah. Knicks are getting pushback and Fiz sympathy for his removal. Knicks were at 4-19 are in a tough place!!! Very tough!

Everyone in this world has flaws, and it is all about utilizing his advantages. It would be perfect someone has no weakness but it is not possible. So the one making decisions has to take the good with the bad. If you have Stephen Curry then you have got to come up a plan to hide his weakness on defense. Of course we can choose to throw him away but elite PGs don't grow on trees.

It is the same when it comes about the talent in management. Obviously Gaines Jr has difficulty on finding friends in a small circle, but could it be said about Patrick Ewing? Patrick Ewing couldn't find a job as a head coach doesn't mean he does not deserve to have it. Gaines Jr would be 1000x better than Mills as someone going to make bball decisions.

How Knicks operates inside we may never have a proof but we can always know it. Dolan makes the final decision. Dolan once said he fired Phil Jackson because he drafted Frank instead of DSJr. It is a foolish thing to say but it shows you have got to draft the "right guy" to have a job under Dolan. If Dolan wants someone, then you have got to draft that guy.

But Media always assumed Phil made all decisions because he was bad to their business. Media always need a leaker, or else they simply are just irrelevant. If Media doesn't know something unique, then we can just go to read everything posted on Knicks official site. It would make no difference.

Phil was not a leaker. He refused to use inside gossips to trade for some media friends to defend him. So he was gone. Everything he did or didn't do was bad, BAD, BADDDDD. It was also part of the reason they went relatively easy on Mills. They simply cannot admit they indirectly destroyed the only hope of turning Knicks into a professional bball club rather than Dolan's personal toy.

I don't doubt Gaines as a basketball person knows his stuff. But he was a lone wolf scout not a coach, not a FO type. he worked as a scout in Chicago, Los Anges and Knicks all while Phil was there. He day traded stocks before Phil hired him as a knick scout. He like did not leave his house in that time. Just what I read, not me making shyt up. Team president has to run meetings, approve contracts, make sure the cap and rules are adhered, go to meetings with other league presidents, negotiate with sponsers, etc. Resonsible for the travel, the money, the hotel contracts, make sure the docs get paid. Gaines ain't that dude. You delegate but it reports to you. As a GM you have to communicate with the coaches, players, other GM's, owner, and scouts. Gaines is not that dude. Never saw Dolan fired PHil over the Draft. It was just days after it. I thought it was he was shopping KP.

I do not agree with that prez has to do everything you have just said. It would be better the prez has the capability to everything but the priority should always be about bballs, not how he is shaking others' hands in a proper way. Gaines was/is a investor/trader, and I think he would be totally perfect to the job. I mean, Daryl Morey and Sam Hinkie are nerds, but does/did it prevent them doing their jobs?
It is wrong to assume we have got to pick perfect guy. We just have to pick a guy better than Mills (or other Dolan's friends) The prez of bballs is like a general. Everyone shared the same title in other teams is his enemy. Why do we care a great deal about his ability to make business friends?

https://nypost.com/2019/03/12/james-dolan-knicks-will-be-an-attractive-spot-for-free-agents/

But despite not allowing Jackson to trade Porzingis in the summer of 2017, Dolan admitted he essentially fired the Zen Master 10 days after Jackson tabbed French guard Frank Ntilikina with the eighth-overall pick in the draft.

“It clearly wasn’t working, and it looked like it was digging us a hole even deeper than there was before. I stayed out of it right up until I couldn’t anymore,” Dolan said. “Look, I had a lot of respect for Phil. People told me to stay out, so I stayed out as long as I could. That was 10 days after Ntilikina. We don’t know how good Frank’s going to be, and who else would they have chosen?

He clearly stated he fired Phil Jackson because he drafted Frank. He clearly stated he had to stop Crazy Phil to destroy the team.

God bless his heart.

Ironic that what gave him coaching success killed his GM success. But that's what happens when people are hired to do jobs they haven't done before.

Sambakick wrote:Phil could've been a good GM if he didn't chain himself to a single coaching philosophy (triangle offense)

Ironic that what gave him coaching success killed his GM success. But that's what happens when people are hired to do jobs they haven't done before.

I do not disagree that Triangle should not be the solution for everything, but he still had to find a system to build on. Looking back a lot of ex-knicks actually playing their best in Triangle. Melo probably would still be a valuable starter if he was willing to play in Triangle.

"He hasn't done it before so he should not do it" is used a lot as a reason against hiring Phil, but I think the reason holds little value. Can we say the same about Steve Kerr? He was a first year coach when he won the chip. With his 50 years of experience in bballs, Phil clearly were good enough to take the job.

And he was not the GM. Mills was the GM. Phil did not hire him. So it is amazing that ppl would blame every mistake on Phil Jackson. Mills WAS the GM, Phil did not hire him, and Phil could not fire him.

BigDaddyG wrote:

mlby1215 wrote:

Sambakick wrote:Phil could've been a good GM if he didn't chain himself to a single coaching philosophy (triangle offense)

Ironic that what gave him coaching success killed his GM success. But that's what happens when people are hired to do jobs they haven't done before.

I do not disagree that Triangle should not be the solution for everything, but he still had to find a system to build on. Looking back a lot of ex-knicks actually playing their best in Triangle. Melo probably would still be a valuable starter if he was willing to play in Triangle.

"He hasn't done it before so he should not do it" is used a lot as a reason against hiring Phil, but I think the reason holds little value. Can we say the same about Steve Kerr? He was a first year coach when he won the chip. With his 50 years of experience in bballs, Phil clearly were good enough to take the job.

And he was not the GM. Mills was the GM. Phil did not hire him. So it is amazing that ppl would blame every mistake on Phil Jackson. Mills WAS the GM, Phil did not hire him, and Phil could not fire him.

Yeah, but Phil had (mostly) the final decision on basketball personnel decisions. It's my understanding that Mills was in control of the day to day operations Phil couldn't be bothered with. Every trade, roster transaction etc was Phil's decision. That was the case excuse Phil used to slide into the presidency. It's semantics, but orgs have different titles and roles that don't necessarily overlap with other team's positions. I'm not a Phil hater or lover. He did some good things and he did some wacky stuff as well. I think the Triangle still works. Maybe not in it's purest form, but you still see teams using Triangle movements. It looked bad with us because we didn't have IQ players or players willing to go along with it.

To this day we still don't know who was responsible for what. For example,one day Phil were indifferent to resign Melo, but the next day he was handing him the max + no-trade clause. Was it on Phil? or Mills? or Dolan? We took a lot of things for granted, like Phil was the one calling all the shot.

The truth probably was not that clear. At the end, he was fired because he drafted Frank, not DSJr. Dolan probably didn't know who the Frank was, but he fired him anyway because he assumed Frank was bad.

Who told Dolan? Obviously it was Mills. He had Dolan's ear. In general a GM listens to the prez, but in this case GM had the direct line to the owner, and the owner would force the hand of prez, or he will be fired. (And Phil was fired)

Now, can we be so sure that "Phil made all the final decisions and Mills was on day-to-day"? IMO, as a ex-coach Phil probably would rather rely everything on Mills and he only wanted to teach and handle the tactical side of bballs.

But it doesn't matter anymore. The thing we are sure is that Phil Jackson didn't complain. Until we have heard his side of story we will never know.

One thing I am sure is that. Mills couldn't even have a 30 wins team without the help of Phil Jackson. Who knows what Phil Jackson could have done if he wasn't handed this clown called Steve Mills?

toodarkmark wrote:So looks like the Knicks are so much better after the firing. It was Fizdale that they gave up on. It was Fizdale who didn't know what he was doing. Good to see competent coaching tonight, and the team really playing for the coach as we are down *checks notes* 30 points. Wow.

So yeah. You delusional rubes that think this team gave up and wasn't trying because of Fizdale, I got a bridge I'm selling in Brooklyn

This team is bad. And the problems are not with coaching.
The problem is with the roster being incomplete, young, and lucking of developed talent.
This team needs a lot of time. What will be the coach name is irrelevant.

smackeddog wrote:

toodarkmark wrote:So looks like the Knicks are so much better after the firing. It was Fizdale that they gave up on. It was Fizdale who didn't know what he was doing. Good to see competent coaching tonight, and the team really playing for the coach as we are down *checks notes* 30 points. Wow.

So yeah. You delusional rubes that think this team gave up and wasn't trying because of Fizdale, I got a bridge I'm selling in Brooklyn

Yup, I didn't get how the roster would actually fit together when it was 'constructed' over summer, I thought and posted this at the time- what I regret is that I assumed the front office really had done their homework and knew something I didn't- turns out it was total BS, they did just scramble and sign anyone they could, and then just hoped and prayed that DSJr would be better. Pathetic!

One of the biggest issues was the rotation, especially the starting 5

arkrud wrote:

toodarkmark wrote:So looks like the Knicks are so much better after the firing. It was Fizdale that they gave up on. It was Fizdale who didn't know what he was doing. Good to see competent coaching tonight, and the team really playing for the coach as we are down *checks notes* 30 points. Wow.

So yeah. You delusional rubes that think this team gave up and wasn't trying because of Fizdale, I got a bridge I'm selling in Brooklyn

This team is bad. And the problems are not with coaching.
The problem is with the roster being incomplete, young, and lucking of developed talent.
This team needs a lot of time. What will be the coach name is irrelevant.

Yes, again Fiz is taking the majority of blame Mills should have taken. Coaches are important, but alone they are helpless.

The teams matter. Spurs is 9-14 and GSW is 5-20, and they are being coached by who?