JrZyHuStLa wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

JrZyHuStLa wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

JrZyHuStLa wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

JrZyHuStLa wrote:

crzymdups wrote:Just out of curiousity.

Do you guys blame Jimmy Butler for the dysfunction in Chicago?

Was it KG's fault the Timberwolves sucked and he didn't win jack until he got traded to Boston and teamed up with two other actual stars in their primes?

Is it Chris Paul's fault the Clippers never made it out of the second round?

Is it Anthony Davis's fault the Pelicans suck?

Was it Barkley's fault the Sixers never won a championship?

Was it Chris Webber's fault the Kings didn't make it past the Lakers?

Just wondering where these other NBA greats who couldn't get over the hump on dysfunctional or even great teams stand in your minds.

I looked at this and one thing jumped out.

They're all good to great defensive players.

Your friend Carmelo isn't.

Webber is good to great defensive player? Innnnnnnteresting. I think Webber just spat out his coffee wherever he is and he doesn't even know why.

But, okay, sure... they're almost all better passers and defenders than Melo. Melo is a better scorer than almost all of them. Different players have different strengths, very few guys are great at everything. So... why did their teams suck if they not only passed, but also defended?

Melo is a better scorer than almost all of them? Yea sure, let's just ignore efficiency since it shouldn't be considered. After all, it just comes down to PPG. Excellent thinking. If you said Melo has more of an offensive reportoire, I may agree but saying he's a better scorer is just plain wrong. Efficiency HAS TO be considered.

All of these guys are nearly perennial playoff players as well, with the exception of Davis. His teams flat out have stunk. Being a good player that does multiple things well doesn't guarantee winning. There's too many variables. Heck,you need some luck too. Shyt happens. Its a tough league. But nearly all of these players are two way players who were capable of making adjustments and providing additional contributions to their teams. Melo simply isn't shooting at the same basket at these guys. Nowhere close.

What about the Timberwolves from 2005-2007? They didn't make the playoffs with KG all those years and sank down to 30 wins territory.

2004-5 44-38 missed playoffs
2005-6 33-49 missed playoffs
2006-7 32-50 missed playoffs

Wha happen? KG defended, moved the ball, so much more efficient than Melo! KG's fault?

Again, being a good two way and efficient top gun player on your team doesn't always guarantee playoff appearances. But most of the time it does. KG spent 12 seasons in Minnesota. Let's exclude his rookie year, we can conclude he got his teams into the postseason 8 out of 11 seasons. He picked up an MVP award as well. Not too shabby.

And in terms of fault, yea you CAN say it's his fault, just not 100%. It should never fall on the main player 100%. That's just not realistic. But, a good chunk of failure has to be attributed to the top gun. Why? Because it's the NBA. First place you look to when things aren't going too well are the stars! This is no different than what I'm doing with Melo. The Knicks are a complete joke. We're all looking at Melo for a good chunk of the team's failures! As the centerpiece of the team, it's warranted.

Let me ask you a simple question. Do you take Melo over any of those guys you named?

I sure as hell don't.

No, I don't either. Well, I think Melo in his prime is better than Butler in his prime. Now? No way. But Melo made the playoffs the first ten years of his career, too. 10 out of 11 when Phil came on, since Phil came in at the end of a season where they missed the playoffs by one game.

My point with that is there is more to a team's success than one guy. There are plenty examples of teams around the league where a team isn't built right for a star to succeed. See Anthony Davis, etc.

There are also plenty of examples where a team is seemingly built really well for a star to succeed CP3 in LA, Webber in Sacramento... those teams still failed. Because a lot of times basketball comes down to who has two of the top five players in the league and that's it. Shaq/Kobe, Shaq/Wade, Lebron/Wade, Lebron/Kyrie, Steph/Dray/Klay, Duncan/Parker, Duncan/Kawhi... there are exceptions like the Dallas Mavs and the Detroit Pistons... but they're quite rare.

It comes down to Shaq/Kobe, Lebron/Wade, Lebron/Kyrie class of players when you are looking at CHAMPIONSHIPS. This is not the debate we're having here. You're switching gears on me.

Obviously it comes down to more than one guy when measuring the success of a team. No one is arguing that. I'm just saying you have to look at the focal pieces when things aren't going so well. There's a reason why coaches, GMs, and executives first dissect the centerpiece players when assessing poor outcomes. You start at the top. You start at the core, and you work your way down. This is why when you read articles about the Knicks woes, you see more Melo articles than you see Justin Holiday, Ron Baker articles.

This is how it works in pro sports. I can't believe you are even debating this.

That's fair. But it's also a different argument than the ones I was responding to.

I was responding to people saying that the reason the Knicks were bad this year is Melo not moving the ball. That's a delusional argument.

But I agree completely it is time to rebuild. Melo is too old to be the building block piece on the team. But we're locked into him for far too much money with a no trade clause... so who knows.

The Bulls and Lakers did eventually buy in and went on to win Titles but they did buck against the changes at first. The difference between those players response and how Melo and Rose responded is telling. No matter what you run the best players MUST BUY IN.

crzymdups wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

nixluva wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

JrZyHuStLa wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

JrZyHuStLa wrote:

crzymdups wrote:Just out of curiousity.

Do you guys blame Jimmy Butler for the dysfunction in Chicago?

Was it KG's fault the Timberwolves sucked and he didn't win jack until he got traded to Boston and teamed up with two other actual stars in their primes?

Is it Chris Paul's fault the Clippers never made it out of the second round?

Is it Anthony Davis's fault the Pelicans suck?

Was it Barkley's fault the Sixers never won a championship?

Was it Chris Webber's fault the Kings didn't make it past the Lakers?

Just wondering where these other NBA greats who couldn't get over the hump on dysfunctional or even great teams stand in your minds.

I looked at this and one thing jumped out.

They're all good to great defensive players.

Your friend Carmelo isn't.

Webber is good to great defensive player? Innnnnnnteresting. I think Webber just spat out his coffee wherever he is and he doesn't even know why.

But, okay, sure... they're almost all better passers and defenders than Melo. Melo is a better scorer than almost all of them. Different players have different strengths, very few guys are great at everything. So... why did their teams suck if they not only passed, but also defended?

Melo is a better scorer than almost all of them? Yea sure, let's just ignore efficiency since it shouldn't be considered. After all, it just comes down to PPG. Excellent thinking. If you said Melo has more of an offensive reportoire, I may agree but saying he's a better scorer is just plain wrong. Efficiency HAS TO be considered.

All of these guys are nearly perennial playoff players as well, with the exception of Davis. His teams flat out have stunk. Being a good player that does multiple things well doesn't guarantee winning. There's too many variables. Heck,you need some luck too. Shyt happens. Its a tough league. But nearly all of these players are two way players who were capable of making adjustments and providing additional contributions to their teams. Melo simply isn't shooting at the same basket at these guys. Nowhere close.

What about the Timberwolves from 2005-2007? They didn't make the playoffs with KG all those years and sank down to 30 wins territory.

2004-5 44-38 missed playoffs
2005-6 33-49 missed playoffs
2006-7 32-50 missed playoffs

Wha happen? KG defended, moved the ball, so much more efficient than Melo! KG's fault?

This just gets silly at a certain point! No one is saying you can just place everything on one player and that the rest of the team doesn't matter. We are saying Melo could do more than he has to make his teams better.

Are you trying to argue that Melo has done all that he could to help his team win games???

I saw you put your comment in big, bold font since Nixluva didn't respond the first time. I'll copy, paste, enlarge, and bold my previous response to your focusing on nothing but team records.

"There's a lot of complexity figuring out why a team underachieves. It's one thing if a team's record comes up as part of a discussion but the success of a team should never be the main way of evaluating a player. If anyone ever says they have nothing to criticize Melo for except for his team's records, they're making a bad argument."

Sorry, I missed that response.

I agree completely.

The arguments here that are pissing me off are the ones seemingly arguing that the Knicks would be some kind of contender this year if Melo had moved the ball. Which are either completely delusional about that state of this roster and team... or just disingenuous... or just not very smart.

My point with bringing up other players failing who are as good or better than Melo... it's a lot more complicated on how just the one guy plays.

OK, then we're probably not that far apart.
However, I do think if Melo played hard on defense, and eliminated the contested mid range shots and replaced them with good passes, his teams would have won at least 4 more games a year and maybe more like 8 more. Even if he only did 1 of those things, I think it would make at least a 2 or 3 win difference. That is his fault, not his roster, his coach, GM, etc.

Bonn1997 wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

nixluva wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

JrZyHuStLa wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

JrZyHuStLa wrote:

crzymdups wrote:Just out of curiousity.

Do you guys blame Jimmy Butler for the dysfunction in Chicago?

Was it KG's fault the Timberwolves sucked and he didn't win jack until he got traded to Boston and teamed up with two other actual stars in their primes?

Is it Chris Paul's fault the Clippers never made it out of the second round?

Is it Anthony Davis's fault the Pelicans suck?

Was it Barkley's fault the Sixers never won a championship?

Was it Chris Webber's fault the Kings didn't make it past the Lakers?

Just wondering where these other NBA greats who couldn't get over the hump on dysfunctional or even great teams stand in your minds.

I looked at this and one thing jumped out.

They're all good to great defensive players.

Your friend Carmelo isn't.

Webber is good to great defensive player? Innnnnnnteresting. I think Webber just spat out his coffee wherever he is and he doesn't even know why.

But, okay, sure... they're almost all better passers and defenders than Melo. Melo is a better scorer than almost all of them. Different players have different strengths, very few guys are great at everything. So... why did their teams suck if they not only passed, but also defended?

Melo is a better scorer than almost all of them? Yea sure, let's just ignore efficiency since it shouldn't be considered. After all, it just comes down to PPG. Excellent thinking. If you said Melo has more of an offensive reportoire, I may agree but saying he's a better scorer is just plain wrong. Efficiency HAS TO be considered.

All of these guys are nearly perennial playoff players as well, with the exception of Davis. His teams flat out have stunk. Being a good player that does multiple things well doesn't guarantee winning. There's too many variables. Heck,you need some luck too. Shyt happens. Its a tough league. But nearly all of these players are two way players who were capable of making adjustments and providing additional contributions to their teams. Melo simply isn't shooting at the same basket at these guys. Nowhere close.

What about the Timberwolves from 2005-2007? They didn't make the playoffs with KG all those years and sank down to 30 wins territory.

2004-5 44-38 missed playoffs
2005-6 33-49 missed playoffs
2006-7 32-50 missed playoffs

Wha happen? KG defended, moved the ball, so much more efficient than Melo! KG's fault?

This just gets silly at a certain point! No one is saying you can just place everything on one player and that the rest of the team doesn't matter. We are saying Melo could do more than he has to make his teams better.

Are you trying to argue that Melo has done all that he could to help his team win games???

I saw you put your comment in big, bold font since Nixluva didn't respond the first time. I'll copy, paste, enlarge, and bold my previous response to your focusing on nothing but team records.

"There's a lot of complexity figuring out why a team underachieves. It's one thing if a team's record comes up as part of a discussion but the success of a team should never be the main way of evaluating a player. If anyone ever says they have nothing to criticize Melo for except for his team's records, they're making a bad argument."

Sorry, I missed that response.

I agree completely.

The arguments here that are pissing me off are the ones seemingly arguing that the Knicks would be some kind of contender this year if Melo had moved the ball. Which are either completely delusional about that state of this roster and team... or just disingenuous... or just not very smart.

My point with bringing up other players failing who are as good or better than Melo... it's a lot more complicated on how just the one guy plays.

OK, then we're probably not that far apart.
However, I do think if Melo played hard on defense, and eliminated the contested mid range shots and replaced them with good passes, his teams would have won at least 4 more games a year and maybe more like 8 more. Even if he only did 1 of those things, I think it would make at least a 2 or 3 win difference. That is his fault, not his roster, his coach, GM, etc.

Fair enough, but the Knicks AS A TEAM have led the league in mid-range jumpers since Phil arrived. It's a main feature of the Triangle. The mid-range jumper IS the weapon the Triangle takes advantage of most.

I do think Melo could have played more "DadMelo" games this year and we may have won five more games. But thank god he didn't. Would any sane person want to be chasing the eighth seed rather than a top five pick right now? I would hope not.

I do think going forward the predilection of the Triangle to set up mid-range jumpers is going to be a problem. It'll be funny to see who gets the blame after Melo goes. I'm guessing Hornacek first, then KP. Maybe they'll re-sign Rose to have him be the whipping boy next season so Phil can shake his fist at the clouds and scream "Michael Jordan never played this way!"

crzymdups wrote:

nixluva wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

JrZyHuStLa wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

JrZyHuStLa wrote:

crzymdups wrote:Just out of curiousity.

Do you guys blame Jimmy Butler for the dysfunction in Chicago?

Was it KG's fault the Timberwolves sucked and he didn't win jack until he got traded to Boston and teamed up with two other actual stars in their primes?

Is it Chris Paul's fault the Clippers never made it out of the second round?

Is it Anthony Davis's fault the Pelicans suck?

Was it Barkley's fault the Sixers never won a championship?

Was it Chris Webber's fault the Kings didn't make it past the Lakers?

Just wondering where these other NBA greats who couldn't get over the hump on dysfunctional or even great teams stand in your minds.

I looked at this and one thing jumped out.

They're all good to great defensive players.

Your friend Carmelo isn't.

Webber is good to great defensive player? Innnnnnnteresting. I think Webber just spat out his coffee wherever he is and he doesn't even know why.

But, okay, sure... they're almost all better passers and defenders than Melo. Melo is a better scorer than almost all of them. Different players have different strengths, very few guys are great at everything. So... why did their teams suck if they not only passed, but also defended?

Melo is a better scorer than almost all of them? Yea sure, let's just ignore efficiency since it shouldn't be considered. After all, it just comes down to PPG. Excellent thinking. If you said Melo has more of an offensive reportoire, I may agree but saying he's a better scorer is just plain wrong. Efficiency HAS TO be considered.

All of these guys are nearly perennial playoff players as well, with the exception of Davis. His teams flat out have stunk. Being a good player that does multiple things well doesn't guarantee winning. There's too many variables. Heck,you need some luck too. Shyt happens. Its a tough league. But nearly all of these players are two way players who were capable of making adjustments and providing additional contributions to their teams. Melo simply isn't shooting at the same basket at these guys. Nowhere close.

What about the Timberwolves from 2005-2007? They didn't make the playoffs with KG all those years and sank down to 30 wins territory.

2004-5 44-38 missed playoffs
2005-6 33-49 missed playoffs
2006-7 32-50 missed playoffs

Wha happen? KG defended, moved the ball, so much more efficient than Melo! KG's fault?

This just gets silly at a certain point! No one is saying you can just place everything on one player and that the rest of the team doesn't matter. We are saying Melo could do more than he has to make his teams better.

Are you trying to argue that Melo has done all that he could to help his team win games???

I think Melo was done a disservice by Phil by having bad fits at coach for what his skillset actually was. Phil invested almost $130M over five years on Melo and then rather than try to win with Melo, he tried to make Melo play a different way than he ever had and to boot, surrounded him with some of the worst supporting casts of his entire career.

Who was the best player Phil brought in outside of KP, who we've all seen is still learning and too young to really be a winning player (look at his shot selection last night, look at his D last night, look at his constant bad fouls all season)?

Was it Rolo? Was it Rose? Rose didn't make the playoffs in Chicago the year before he got here and Rolo went to Chicago where he probably won't make the playoffs this year. He traded Tyson and Felton for nothing. Shumper and JR for nothing.

Yet somehow the answer to the Knicks problem is Melo didn't move the ball enough.

This 100% times over.

fishmike wrote:None of this matters.

Seems the anti Phil crowd is focused on blame. The anti Melo crowd isnt. Nobody is blaming Melo. Nobody is saying another year in the lottery BECAUSE of Melo. What they are saying is that Melo needs to go. Those are not the same things.

The bottom line is Melo doesnt have a position. He doesnt defend. He takes tons of shots. He doesnt move the ball. He holds the ball.

Yes. The Knicks are rebuilding and thats ALLLLLLLLLLL PHIL'S FAULT (happy?). Do you want Melo here taking his 20 shots a game during that rebuild? Stopping the ball? Not playing D? Think this is all on him? Its just time to move on. The fact that Melo has played poorly this season makes it even clearer.

LOL. Fish, I respect you as a poster, but this entire thread is people (including you) blaming Melo for not getting it and THAT being what sank this season. It's frankly delusional.

I want to rebuild. Any sane Knicks fan does at this point.

And I want Melo gone. Too bad he has a no trade clause. But I think Phil finally broke his spirit enough to get him to leave. Too bad he also has a 15% trade kicker and we'll have to take back a ton of sh!t to move on. If Phil is even able to find a taker, which I'm not convinced can even happen this summer. Melo will be 33 in May. Who exactly is lining up to trade for a 33 year old they'll have to pay whatever Melo makes now plus 15% trade kicker... what is that, $30M a year for the next two seasons? We hope the Clippers... but man... really? Will they?

nixluva wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

nixluva wrote:Just to be clear, Phil basically "forced" the Triangle on the Bulls and Lakers! I know it's hard to remember such things but MJ didn't openly accept the change the Triangle placed on him. People tend to forget how it really went down now after all the Championships.

The Bulls and Lakers did eventually buy in and went on to win Titles but they did buck against the changes at first. The difference between those players response and how Melo and Rose responded is telling. No matter what you run the best players MUST BUY IN.

If you're talking about why this season was a failure, they didn't try to install the Triangle til after the all-star break, so not sure where the Triangle fits into this season. They were running Hornacek's system up til the all-star break. Good luck trying to define whatever mess Hornacek was supposedly running. I know, I know, it's all Melo's fault Hornacek was running a confusing half-system.

No I was just making the point that they didn't just mess around trying to find a system that fit the talent in Chicago and LA. Phil and Tex "forced" the Triangle on the Bulls and Lakers. The difference is that the players eventually bought in and no matter what you run the players have to buy in. Especially the best players.

You can stop with the BS about it "all being Melo's fault". It's missing the point everyone but a few are trying to make. I'm done with Melo. Stay or go, I want the team to focus on bringing in players that "GET IT". Melo never has. I thought maybe he was when he was really passing the ball last year but...

So players that "GET IT" like Michael Jordan, Scottie Pippen, Shaquille O'Neal, and Kobe Bryant. Got it. That shouldn't be too hard.

Imagine Erik Spoelstra had a system in Miami he called, let's say "the Spo-kangle" and he took credit for using it to get Lebron James and Dwyane Wade to buy in and finally win it all. Would you think he was full of baloney, like most of the league thinks Phil is? Or would you think the "Spo-kangle" was the one true system and the right way to play for every team?

crzymdups wrote:

fishmike wrote:None of this matters.

Seems the anti Phil crowd is focused on blame. The anti Melo crowd isnt. Nobody is blaming Melo. Nobody is saying another year in the lottery BECAUSE of Melo. What they are saying is that Melo needs to go. Those are not the same things.

The bottom line is Melo doesnt have a position. He doesnt defend. He takes tons of shots. He doesnt move the ball. He holds the ball.

Yes. The Knicks are rebuilding and thats ALLLLLLLLLLL PHIL'S FAULT (happy?). Do you want Melo here taking his 20 shots a game during that rebuild? Stopping the ball? Not playing D? Think this is all on him? Its just time to move on. The fact that Melo has played poorly this season makes it even clearer.

LOL. Fish, I respect you as a poster, but this entire thread is people (including you) blaming Melo for not getting it and THAT being what sank this season. It's frankly delusional.

I want to rebuild. Any sane Knicks fan does at this point.

And I want Melo gone. Too bad he has a no trade clause. But I think Phil finally broke his spirit enough to get him to leave. Too bad he also has a 15% trade kicker and we'll have to take back a ton of sh!t to move on. If Phil is even able to find a taker, which I'm not convinced can even happen this summer. Melo will be 33 in May. Who exactly is lining up to trade for a 33 year old they'll have to pay whatever Melo makes now plus 15% trade kicker... what is that, $30M a year for the next two seasons? We hope the Clippers... but man... really? Will they?

If he's here it will be fine. He will keep shooting 20x a night defending nobody and we will continue to draft as we have under Phil and Melo and Phil both will leave us in a great spot.