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OT: Melo Steps Forward
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gunsnewing
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7/12/2016  1:10 AM
arkrud wrote:
Uptown wrote:
newyorknewyork wrote:Some interesting points raised.

First and foremost we can only attempt to stop racism by first accepting that its a reality and then holding anyone accountable who is willing to use racism for decision making. If no one has to be held accountable for racism then it will be the same old story. Or maybe we should just wait until one day everyone is 100% morally enlightened then racism will take care of itself.

That woman who was raped by the Stanford swimmer. What if I took the stance that she had the freedom to not go to college parties. That she had the freedom to not drink. That rape will one day stop when everyone decides that its morally wrong and we should just look forward to that day. She shouldn't be tooo upset since some places in the middle east the rape and molest women and children all the time. So its justified for the judge to give him such a light sentence. Or cops have the freedom to have other careers so officers getting killed on the job isn't a big deal.

In this thread there are many non African Americans attempting to speak on the experience of African Americans in America which is flawed in it self. Arkud you are of Russian decent. Have you and your friend growing up in America ever been kicked out of house parties due to Russian stereotypes instantly making you a threat? Have you ever been in a predominantly white neighborhood. Followed then stopped by the police, then asked what you were doing in said town. Then told to go back to where you came from? Have you had to have conversations with your children that they might get killed by the police because they are viewed as a bigger threat due to there skin color?

When I was around 9-10 I got into a fight with another kid who was white. I punched him a few times, He kicked me in the face with some karate kick. He decided he didn't want to fight anymore and walked away with some blood inside his cheek. And we left it at that. I was later arrested and brought to the police station. Nobody cared for my side of the story. No officers ever asked me what happen or why we fought. All that mattered was that his white mother was upset her child got into a fight. Since I was black I was instantly guilty. It couldn't just be 2 little kids had a disagreement fought it out and went there separate ways.

And that is petty stuff on my end. How many of you can identify with being arrested for fitting the description or charged with crimes you didn't commit and pressured to take plea deals with the threat of max charges.

Many urban communities have and admitted horrible education system meaning no hope for future and go through an admitted jacked up criminal system. African Americans can move out of the poor urban communities. Work two jobs in order to keep up with expenses in order to make sure there child receives a better education. This may save that one family. But none of this improves that community they left. All it does is enhance the community that was already good. Meanwhile many more other families that fail to pull this off get stuck in the cycle.

Family structure is very important and key as touched on many times. You know what destroys family structure? Throwing one out three in jail. Murdering members of households.

Immigrants can never challenge government or protest there rights they are not a threat to anyone in positions of power.

Realest post in this thread....Hope everyone takes the time to read this...

I am from Soviet Union but Jewish descent.
I was discriminated first 33 years of my life just because I am Jew national (not even religions) before moving to US.
I cannot attend any good quality college, work for any government jobs related to defense or anything communists considered secrets.
Can be bit up on the street and nobody would care to help.
So if you think that your experience is unique you are mistaken.
Many people in many countries are much worth off and need to run for their lives.
I understand that the history of African Americans is the history of struggle and oppression.
So is the history of my people.
Thousands years back we decide that we not be slaves any more and since then we prefer to die free.
And millions were murdered over and over again. But we persist and we always mange to be the best we can be.
We refused to be the victims even when Nazi burn millions in the camps of Holocaust.
We never took violent path of retaliation. Our retaliation is to be the smartest, the wealthiest, the most talented people of the world.
This is our answer to the world. So you should do same and I believe you can.

wow thats deep. You've earned my respect Arkrud!

AUTOADVERT
H1AND1
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7/12/2016  6:07 AM
arkrud wrote:
arkrud wrote:
A gunman has killed two police officers and wounded another outside a courthouse in the US state of Michigan.

This is getting worth...

Hopefully it has nothing to do with race... just regular criminal story...
Still people kill not guns....
This inmate took gun from police and used it to kill them.
The issues are more that just gun control...

That's exactly what happened. The defendant grabbed a gun and started popping off. He then tried to take hostages in an escape attempt and was shot by police. In this case it wasn't anything more than a paycho trying to make a run for it. Still tragic of course.

Here's the problem with the whole gun control debate right now as I see it. You have the NRA painting anyone or any reform as the government trying to take away people's guns which is totally silly. This is not a zero sum question and with a constitutional amendment guns aren't going to become straight up illegal anytime soon. That being said any law abiding citizen who wants a gun should should have no problem having to pass a background check that includes mental health info and data cross referenced with terror watch lists. WHY THE F is any of that beyond the pale for the NRA and infringing on anyone's freedom? The constitution says nothing about guns having to be freely accessible without rules and regulations and honestly if you are a law abiding adult having to wait a day or two until you get your gun is not a big deal. Nor is a day or two of waiting impinging on your constitutional rights. Give me a friggin break.

the 2nd amendment is the law of the land and not going to be changed anytime soon so gun ownership is something that no politician can simply change on a whim. Claiming that we can't exclude people on terror watch lists, being against background checks to assure as best we can that someone buying a friggin AR-15 is a responsible law abiding adult etc is lunacy and a purely cynical position by the NRA. Will is stop all the bad guys from getting guns? No of course not. But if you are the typical aforementioned law abiding adult you can still get a gun and if it saves one life it's worth it.

newyorknewyork
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7/12/2016  6:37 AM
arkrud wrote:
Uptown wrote:
newyorknewyork wrote:Some interesting points raised.

First and foremost we can only attempt to stop racism by first accepting that its a reality and then holding anyone accountable who is willing to use racism for decision making. If no one has to be held accountable for racism then it will be the same old story. Or maybe we should just wait until one day everyone is 100% morally enlightened then racism will take care of itself.

That woman who was raped by the Stanford swimmer. What if I took the stance that she had the freedom to not go to college parties. That she had the freedom to not drink. That rape will one day stop when everyone decides that its morally wrong and we should just look forward to that day. She shouldn't be tooo upset since some places in the middle east the rape and molest women and children all the time. So its justified for the judge to give him such a light sentence. Or cops have the freedom to have other careers so officers getting killed on the job isn't a big deal.

In this thread there are many non African Americans attempting to speak on the experience of African Americans in America which is flawed in it self. Arkud you are of Russian decent. Have you and your friend growing up in America ever been kicked out of house parties due to Russian stereotypes instantly making you a threat? Have you ever been in a predominantly white neighborhood. Followed then stopped by the police, then asked what you were doing in said town. Then told to go back to where you came from? Have you had to have conversations with your children that they might get killed by the police because they are viewed as a bigger threat due to there skin color?

When I was around 9-10 I got into a fight with another kid who was white. I punched him a few times, He kicked me in the face with some karate kick. He decided he didn't want to fight anymore and walked away with some blood inside his cheek. And we left it at that. I was later arrested and brought to the police station. Nobody cared for my side of the story. No officers ever asked me what happen or why we fought. All that mattered was that his white mother was upset her child got into a fight. Since I was black I was instantly guilty. It couldn't just be 2 little kids had a disagreement fought it out and went there separate ways.

And that is petty stuff on my end. How many of you can identify with being arrested for fitting the description or charged with crimes you didn't commit and pressured to take plea deals with the threat of max charges.

Many urban communities have and admitted horrible education system meaning no hope for future and go through an admitted jacked up criminal system. African Americans can move out of the poor urban communities. Work two jobs in order to keep up with expenses in order to make sure there child receives a better education. This may save that one family. But none of this improves that community they left. All it does is enhance the community that was already good. Meanwhile many more other families that fail to pull this off get stuck in the cycle.

Family structure is very important and key as touched on many times. You know what destroys family structure? Throwing one out three in jail. Murdering members of households.

Immigrants can never challenge government or protest there rights they are not a threat to anyone in positions of power.

Realest post in this thread....Hope everyone takes the time to read this...

I am from Soviet Union but Jewish descent.
I was discriminated first 33 years of my life just because I am Jew national (not even religions) before moving to US.
I cannot attend any good quality college, work for any government jobs related to defense or anything communists considered secrets.
Can be bit up on the street and nobody would care to help.
So if you think that your experience is unique you are mistaken.
Many people in many countries are much worth off and need to run for their lives.
I understand that the history of African Americans is the history of struggle and oppression.
So is the history of my people.
Thousands years back we decide that we not be slaves any more and since then we prefer to die free.
And millions were murdered over and over again. But we persist and we always mange to be the best we can be.
We refused to be the victims even when Nazi burn millions in the camps of Holocaust.
We never took violent path of retaliation. Our retaliation is to be the smartest, the wealthiest, the most talented people of the world.
This is our answer to the world. So you should do same and I believe you can.

And as an African American I can never attempt to speak for how it is to be Jewish or your experience in general growing up in the Soviet Union and that history. The issue is validating injustice by stating it just needs to be overcome. How about eliminating the injustice so that there is no injustice to over come by holding the people accountable who practice or benifit from injustice. And no I'm not talking about violence. The injustice in the Soviet Union isn't justified because you were able to come to American and be a success story.

Overcoming injustice personnaly is half the battle. Trying to ensure your future generation of kids don't have injustice to have to overcome like you is the other half.

https://vote.nba.com/en Vote for your Knicks.
newyorknewyork
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7/12/2016  6:56 AM
African Americans are upset strictly due to the lack of accountablility for injustice. Its really simple. If a cop uses police brutality should he not be held accountable for it? If racism is used in order to make immoral and unjust decisions. Should that person or people not be held accountable for it. The protest are due to African Americans not believing that the people in power will hold people who do injust actions accountable when it comes to people of color. And the excuses and diversion tactics that have been stated only back this.
https://vote.nba.com/en Vote for your Knicks.
misterearl
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7/12/2016  9:02 AM    LAST EDITED: 7/12/2016  9:23 AM
Thank YOU

newyorknewyork wrote:African Americans are upset strictly due to the lack of accountablility for injustice. Its really simple. If a cop uses police brutality should he not be held accountable for it? If racism is used in order to make immoral and unjust decisions. Should that person or people not be held accountable for it. The protest are due to African Americans not believing that the people in power will hold people who do injust actions accountable when it comes to people of color. And the excuses and diversion tactics that have been stated only back this.

For arkrud to support Rudy Giulliani and characterize black people as more prone to commit crime, and therefore more suspicious and deserving of terror tactics, should be an insult to all our intelligence.

Plain and simple.

A MUST READ

Rudy Giuliani’s Racial Myths

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/12/opinion/rudy-giulianis-racial-myths.html?_r=0

once a knick always a knick
misterearl
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7/12/2016  10:26 AM    LAST EDITED: 7/12/2016  10:29 AM
Trump For President

"I'm an Indian American who was born and raised in this country, but have never felt more isolated and afraid of my fellow Americans than I do today as a direct consequence of the invective and seemingly unrestrained nature of the bigoted discourse that is allowed to be dished upon us by our so-called political elders. Individuals like Giuliani, who previously held elected office, and continue to command immense power in spreading their message publicly, show little judgement in the language they use or how they use it;


Trump is perhaps the most extreme example of this, but one would think that the former Mayor would not be as classless as the presumed Republican nominee in spewing race-baiting messages that serve only to inflame, not to soothe, at a time of crisis; further, the lack of circumspection is appalling; if these people want to carve out a name for themselves as great leaders in our our political history, I'm afraid they are falling woefully short of the mark. They compete with each other for headlines and airtime rather than hearts and souls, and if history is any guide, the former is fleeting, whereas the latter truly stands the test of time."

- Sanjay Gupta

once a knick always a knick
meloanyk
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7/12/2016  10:57 AM
While you are reading the New York Times, page 1 "Analysis Finds No Racial Bias In Lethal Force" Study of ten major cities, blacks were more likely to be stopped while police were more likely to fire their weapons at whites without first being attacked and white and blacks involved in police shootings were both equally likely to have been carrying weapons. Both results undercut the idea of racial bias in police use of lethal force. Having said that, address and remove the inequities of the system without cow towing to lessen proper law and order.

I dont pretend to understand the perspective of black experiences with police but Ill shed my own , as a young man I had my labrum torn found out down the line) by having my arm pinned behind my back while thrown over the hood of a police car when I tried to push a drunken friend back into his house. Arrested and jailed overnight and wrongfully charged with disorderly conduct for which I paid a large fine. that set me back and a record that took three years to self expunge. Recently, my underaged lily white nephew in a lilly white neighborhood had guns drawn as he exited a fast food when someone saw a black water gun in his back seat of car. Handcuffed and brought to station for questioning before being released to parents, all shaken but didnt take issue because understood the age we live in. i told him he could have been shot if he had the water gun on him when exiting. Circumstances and overactive cops arent a good mix but Id rather address the excesses of a few than have the disorder and chaos without them.

Ill be direct, people want to lessen racism, preconceived notions, profiling then the black community as a whole need to help themselves by raising their culture by prioritizing what many other successful minorities have done. Good parenting, active involvement in educating, instilling a work ethic, discipline and respect and having goals from early age on so the corrosive effect of welfare doesn't become rooted. White flight hasn't collapse towns that have become predominantly Asian. Finger inequities but also wrongs within. Address the ghetto culture and help reduce the criminal element, mentor the youth. It shouldnt have been me as a teenager serving as a big brother to Paterson youth in the summer but black young role models. People cite stats that just 13% of U.S. population is black yet there have been social programs created and geared to help whether it be welfare, education funding, job hiring , college admissions. For a few to blatantly charge that America and whites in general plot to keep blacks in poverty is nonsense and does nothing but dilute the credibilty of black voices with real issues. If white America were so wired to suppress then we wouldn't have a twicely elected Presiden. President Obama must be exasperated at the lack of educational and job progress made by blacks under his tenure. I am as I voted for him twice to close divides so my kids can live in a more harmonious environment as our demographics shift.

My post may annoy some here who are obviously intelligent and hard working individuals with valid points but my added perspective cultural shifts upward in accountability and self determination would lift the whole and help to close some socio economic gaps that cause so many chasms

arkrud
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7/12/2016  12:16 PM
misterearl wrote:Thank YOU

newyorknewyork wrote:African Americans are upset strictly due to the lack of accountablility for injustice. Its really simple. If a cop uses police brutality should he not be held accountable for it? If racism is used in order to make immoral and unjust decisions. Should that person or people not be held accountable for it. The protest are due to African Americans not believing that the people in power will hold people who do injust actions accountable when it comes to people of color. And the excuses and diversion tactics that have been stated only back this.

For arkrud to support Rudy Giulliani and characterize black people as more prone to commit crime, and therefore more suspicious and deserving of terror tactics, should be an insult to all our intelligence.

Plain and simple.

A MUST READ

Rudy Giuliani’s Racial Myths

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/12/opinion/rudy-giulianis-racial-myths.html?_r=0

I am listening to all opinions.
I have no prejudice for anybody and do not care which race/gender/sexual orientation/religion/political affiliation person is.
In fact I do not have any interest to know this things about people.
I am focused on what people say and especially what people do.
I do not support Republicans and do not support Democrats. Cannot see much difference in what they do and little in what they say.


"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy." Hamlet
newyorknewyork
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7/12/2016  12:32 PM
meloanyk wrote:While you are reading the New York Times, page 1 "Analysis Finds No Racial Bias In Lethal Force" Study of ten major cities, blacks were more likely to be stopped while police were more likely to fire their weapons at whites without first being attacked and white and blacks involved in police shootings were both equally likely to have been carrying weapons. Both results undercut the idea of racial bias in police use of lethal force. Having said that, address and remove the inequities of the system without cow towing to lessen proper law and order.

I dont pretend to understand the perspective of black experiences with police but Ill shed my own , as a young man I had my labrum torn found out down the line) by having my arm pinned behind my back while thrown over the hood of a police car when I tried to push a drunken friend back into his house. Arrested and jailed overnight and wrongfully charged with disorderly conduct for which I paid a large fine. that set me back and a record that took three years to self expunge. Recently, my underaged lily white nephew in a lilly white neighborhood had guns drawn as he exited a fast food when someone saw a black water gun in his back seat of car. Handcuffed and brought to station for questioning before being released to parents, all shaken but didnt take issue because understood the age we live in. i told him he could have been shot if he had the water gun on him when exiting. Circumstances and overactive cops arent a good mix but Id rather address the excesses of a few than have the disorder and chaos without them.

Ill be direct, people want to lessen racism, preconceived notions, profiling then the black community as a whole need to help themselves by raising their culture by prioritizing what many other successful minorities have done. Good parenting, active involvement in educating, instilling a work ethic, discipline and respect and having goals from early age on so the corrosive effect of welfare doesn't become rooted. White flight hasn't collapse towns that have become predominantly Asian. Finger inequities but also wrongs within. Address the ghetto culture and help reduce the criminal element, mentor the youth. It shouldnt have been me as a teenager serving as a big brother to Paterson youth in the summer but black young role models. People cite stats that just 13% of U.S. population is black yet there have been social programs created and geared to help whether it be welfare, education funding, job hiring , college admissions. For a few to blatantly charge that America and whites in general plot to keep blacks in poverty is nonsense and does nothing but dilute the credibilty of black voices with real issues. If white America were so wired to suppress then we wouldn't have a twicely elected Presiden. President Obama must be exasperated at the lack of educational and job progress made by blacks under his tenure. I am as I voted for him twice to close divides so my kids can live in a more harmonious environment as our demographics shift.

My post may annoy some here who are obviously intelligent and hard working individuals with valid points but my added perspective cultural shifts upward in accountability and self determination would lift the whole and help to close some socio economic gaps that cause so many chasms

meloanyk I agree with a lot of what you wrote. In my first reply I even played out my suggestion on how Blacks should step up.

The disconnect is. Well let me ask you. Does perception of a race justify police brutality, excessive force, murder? Is it not called brutality, excessive force and murder for a reason? Does perception of a race justify how one race can be thrown in jail at a higher rate for the same crime as any other race?

https://vote.nba.com/en Vote for your Knicks.
arkrud
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7/12/2016  12:44 PM
newyorknewyork wrote:
meloanyk wrote:While you are reading the New York Times, page 1 "Analysis Finds No Racial Bias In Lethal Force" Study of ten major cities, blacks were more likely to be stopped while police were more likely to fire their weapons at whites without first being attacked and white and blacks involved in police shootings were both equally likely to have been carrying weapons. Both results undercut the idea of racial bias in police use of lethal force. Having said that, address and remove the inequities of the system without cow towing to lessen proper law and order.

I dont pretend to understand the perspective of black experiences with police but Ill shed my own , as a young man I had my labrum torn found out down the line) by having my arm pinned behind my back while thrown over the hood of a police car when I tried to push a drunken friend back into his house. Arrested and jailed overnight and wrongfully charged with disorderly conduct for which I paid a large fine. that set me back and a record that took three years to self expunge. Recently, my underaged lily white nephew in a lilly white neighborhood had guns drawn as he exited a fast food when someone saw a black water gun in his back seat of car. Handcuffed and brought to station for questioning before being released to parents, all shaken but didnt take issue because understood the age we live in. i told him he could have been shot if he had the water gun on him when exiting. Circumstances and overactive cops arent a good mix but Id rather address the excesses of a few than have the disorder and chaos without them.

Ill be direct, people want to lessen racism, preconceived notions, profiling then the black community as a whole need to help themselves by raising their culture by prioritizing what many other successful minorities have done. Good parenting, active involvement in educating, instilling a work ethic, discipline and respect and having goals from early age on so the corrosive effect of welfare doesn't become rooted. White flight hasn't collapse towns that have become predominantly Asian. Finger inequities but also wrongs within. Address the ghetto culture and help reduce the criminal element, mentor the youth. It shouldnt have been me as a teenager serving as a big brother to Paterson youth in the summer but black young role models. People cite stats that just 13% of U.S. population is black yet there have been social programs created and geared to help whether it be welfare, education funding, job hiring , college admissions. For a few to blatantly charge that America and whites in general plot to keep blacks in poverty is nonsense and does nothing but dilute the credibilty of black voices with real issues. If white America were so wired to suppress then we wouldn't have a twicely elected Presiden. President Obama must be exasperated at the lack of educational and job progress made by blacks under his tenure. I am as I voted for him twice to close divides so my kids can live in a more harmonious environment as our demographics shift.

My post may annoy some here who are obviously intelligent and hard working individuals with valid points but my added perspective cultural shifts upward in accountability and self determination would lift the whole and help to close some socio economic gaps that cause so many chasms

meloanyk I agree with a lot of what you wrote. In my first reply I even played out my suggestion on how Blacks should step up.

The disconnect is. Well let me ask you. Does perception of a race justify police brutality, excessive force, murder? Is it not called brutality, excessive force and murder for a reason? Does perception of a race justify how one race can be thrown in jail at a higher rate for the same crime as any other race?

African Americans are not immigrants. They moved to America against their will.
They were enslaved and then again forcefully released and segregated.
That did not get their freedom by roaming the desert until all who experienced slavery died out.
They took this state of mind with them into ghetto and then into inner cities generation into generation.
Millions of African Americans clean themselves from slave culture and millions of white Americans clean themselves from masters culture. But both cultures trails still persist in the minds of millions of people from both backgrounds.

There is no other way low enforcement can work but profiling.
Stereotypes are bad things for specific case but the only solution to keep crime in-check.
I have a lot of neighbors and coworkers who are recent black emigrants from Africa and Caribbean and they do not have any problems with low enforcement. Being just 20 years in US I cannot distinguish African Americans from black emigrants.
I guess police officer can and do... I am wonder how?

"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy." Hamlet
Uptown
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7/12/2016  1:11 PM
The Blacks Lives Matters movement began when George Zimmerman killed and unarmed black teen named Trayvon Martin, and Zimmerman was not held accountable for the crime he committed. Since Martin's death in 2012, hundreds of unarmed black men and women were killed by police officers and most of them were not held accountable. When we say Black Lives Matter, we are talking about the ways in which Black people are deprived of our basic human rights and dignity, the injustices and the lack of accountability.

The laws, the constitution, the system was not created and written with black people in mind.....

arkrud
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7/12/2016  1:37 PM    LAST EDITED: 7/12/2016  2:15 PM
Uptown wrote:The Blacks Lives Matters movement began when George Zimmerman killed and unarmed black teen named Trayvon Martin, and Zimmerman was not held accountable for the crime he committed. Since Martin's death in 2012, hundreds of unarmed black men and women were killed by police officers and most of them were not held accountable. When we say Black Lives Matter, we are talking about the ways in which Black people are deprived of our basic human rights and dignity, the injustices and the lack of accountability.

The laws, the constitution, the system was not created and written with black people in mind.....

I was always under impression constitution was created for all people.
I do not see any color or race specified anywhere. Do you?
Also which country has laws, the constitution, the system created and written specifically with black people in mind?

"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy." Hamlet
WaltLongmire
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7/12/2016  2:14 PM
arkrud wrote:
Uptown wrote:The Blacks Lives Matters movement began when George Zimmerman killed and unarmed black teen named Trayvon Martin, and Zimmerman was not held accountable for the crime he committed. Since Martin's death in 2012, hundreds of unarmed black men and women were killed by police officers and most of them were not held accountable. When we say Black Lives Matter, we are talking about the ways in which Black people are deprived of our basic human rights and dignity, the injustices and the lack of accountability.

The laws, the constitution, the system was not created and written with black people in mind.....

I was always under impression constitution was created for all people.
I do not see any color or race specified anywhere. Do you?


Really? You are kidding, right?


Slaves were not considered full citizens...could not vote.

At one point the Supreme Court branded slaves as property.

Women, except for some short-lived moments, could not vote.

The Constitution had to be amended to give both groups full rights...we needed a Civil Rights movement to improve upon the amendments... and there are still issues.

Also seem to recall a war that might have been partially caused by how the Constitution did not protect blacks


A fine document, with many flaws that have needed to be fixed over time.

EnySpree: Can we agree to agree not to mention Phil Jackson and triangle for the rest of our lives?
meloanyk
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7/12/2016  2:14 PM
newyorknewyork wrote:
meloanyk wrote:While you are reading the New York Times, page 1 "Analysis Finds No Racial Bias In Lethal Force" Study of ten major cities, blacks were more likely to be stopped while police were more likely to fire their weapons at whites without first being attacked and white and blacks involved in police shootings were both equally likely to have been carrying weapons. Both results undercut the idea of racial bias in police use of lethal force. Having said that, address and remove the inequities of the system without cow towing to lessen proper law and order.

I dont pretend to understand the perspective of black experiences with police but Ill shed my own , as a young man I had my labrum torn found out down the line) by having my arm pinned behind my back while thrown over the hood of a police car when I tried to push a drunken friend back into his house. Arrested and jailed overnight and wrongfully charged with disorderly conduct for which I paid a large fine. that set me back and a record that took three years to self expunge. Recently, my underaged lily white nephew in a lilly white neighborhood had guns drawn as he exited a fast food when someone saw a black water gun in his back seat of car. Handcuffed and brought to station for questioning before being released to parents, all shaken but didnt take issue because understood the age we live in. i told him he could have been shot if he had the water gun on him when exiting. Circumstances and overactive cops arent a good mix but Id rather address the excesses of a few than have the disorder and chaos without them.

Ill be direct, people want to lessen racism, preconceived notions, profiling then the black community as a whole need to help themselves by raising their culture by prioritizing what many other successful minorities have done. Good parenting, active involvement in educating, instilling a work ethic, discipline and respect and having goals from early age on so the corrosive effect of welfare doesn't become rooted. White flight hasn't collapse towns that have become predominantly Asian. Finger inequities but also wrongs within. Address the ghetto culture and help reduce the criminal element, mentor the youth. It shouldnt have been me as a teenager serving as a big brother to Paterson youth in the summer but black young role models. People cite stats that just 13% of U.S. population is black yet there have been social programs created and geared to help whether it be welfare, education funding, job hiring , college admissions. For a few to blatantly charge that America and whites in general plot to keep blacks in poverty is nonsense and does nothing but dilute the credibilty of black voices with real issues. If white America were so wired to suppress then we wouldn't have a twicely elected Presiden. President Obama must be exasperated at the lack of educational and job progress made by blacks under his tenure. I am as I voted for him twice to close divides so my kids can live in a more harmonious environment as our demographics shift.

My post may annoy some here who are obviously intelligent and hard working individuals with valid points but my added perspective cultural shifts upward in accountability and self determination would lift the whole and help to close some socio economic gaps that cause so many chasms

meloanyk I agree with a lot of what you wrote. In my first reply I even played out my suggestion on how Blacks should step up.

The disconnect is. Well let me ask you. Does perception of a race justify police brutality, excessive force, murder? Is it not called brutality, excessive force and murder for a reason? Does perception of a race justify how one race can be thrown in jail at a higher rate for the same crime as any other race?

Absolutely NOT. This post was directed at those who direct blame at all others without any introspection of their own culture and its failings to itself. I made it very clear in my initial post that these killings are horrid. Older white people of prejudice in the generation above me are aghast and very upset at what appeared in videos to be blatant crimes againsnt anyone lest the younger generations. There is no rationalizing and the impending investigations bears the full burden of proving beyond any doubt that these horrible actions were necessary. They must be otherwise be punished to the full extent. As far as the criminal justice system, representation by a paid lawyer to defend and negotiate is obviously an advantage over a public defender , repeat offenses mean different sentences and attitudes toward prison vary by lives led. I have no problem putting the whole system under review . If stats are properly filtered and conclusively point to inequities than that should be addressed as a system right down to individual components. What I dont want to see is a lowering of standards to accommodate lower standards. We must eliminate the wrongs without becoming a society without enforceable laws. Ill give you one simple example of my point of being accountable. Many kids of all races use pot and many here talk of legalizing as they see its present illegality hurting black youth disproportionately in the criminal system, my question to the black communities are you ready to make sure that use does not become rampant by their youth and detrimental to their strides forward?

arkrud
Posts: 32217
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Joined: 8/31/2005
Member: #995
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7/12/2016  2:17 PM    LAST EDITED: 7/12/2016  2:46 PM
WaltLongmire wrote:
arkrud wrote:
Uptown wrote:The Blacks Lives Matters movement began when George Zimmerman killed and unarmed black teen named Trayvon Martin, and Zimmerman was not held accountable for the crime he committed. Since Martin's death in 2012, hundreds of unarmed black men and women were killed by police officers and most of them were not held accountable. When we say Black Lives Matter, we are talking about the ways in which Black people are deprived of our basic human rights and dignity, the injustices and the lack of accountability.

The laws, the constitution, the system was not created and written with black people in mind.....

I was always under impression constitution was created for all people.
I do not see any color or race specified anywhere. Do you?


Really? You are kidding, right?


Slaves were not considered full citizens...could not vote.

At one point the Supreme Court branded slaves as property.

Women, except for some short-lived moments, could not vote.

The Constitution had to be amended to give both groups full rights...we needed a Civil Rights movement to improve upon the amendments... and there are still issues.

Also seem to recall a war that might have been partially caused by how the Constitution did not protect blacks


A fine document, with many flaws that have needed to be fixed over time.

Do we still have slaves? Hmmm... I was under impression this is illegal.
And women I guess have full rights... even more rights that man in some areas like family.
It should be no lows which provides for any different treatment based on race/gender/sexual orientation/religion/national descent/political affiliation. If this is not implemented in specific law the law must be changed.

"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy." Hamlet
GustavBahler
Posts: 42797
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Joined: 7/12/2010
Member: #3186

7/12/2016  2:23 PM
arkrud wrote:
misterearl wrote:Thank YOU

newyorknewyork wrote:African Americans are upset strictly due to the lack of accountablility for injustice. Its really simple. If a cop uses police brutality should he not be held accountable for it? If racism is used in order to make immoral and unjust decisions. Should that person or people not be held accountable for it. The protest are due to African Americans not believing that the people in power will hold people who do injust actions accountable when it comes to people of color. And the excuses and diversion tactics that have been stated only back this.

For arkrud to support Rudy Giulliani and characterize black people as more prone to commit crime, and therefore more suspicious and deserving of terror tactics, should be an insult to all our intelligence.

Plain and simple.

A MUST READ

Rudy Giuliani’s Racial Myths

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/12/opinion/rudy-giulianis-racial-myths.html?_r=0

I am listening to all opinions.
I have no prejudice for anybody and do not care which race/gender/sexual orientation/religion/political affiliation person is.
In fact I do not have any interest to know this things about people.
I am focused on what people say and especially what people do.
I do not support Republicans and do not support Democrats. Cannot see much difference in what they do and little in what they say.

I remember you describing Muslims and Arabs as savages and animals, and openly advocated genocide on this board. Bigotry only seems to be a problem when its directed at you.

arkrud
Posts: 32217
Alba Posts: 7
Joined: 8/31/2005
Member: #995
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7/12/2016  2:33 PM
GustavBahler wrote:
arkrud wrote:
misterearl wrote:Thank YOU

newyorknewyork wrote:African Americans are upset strictly due to the lack of accountablility for injustice. Its really simple. If a cop uses police brutality should he not be held accountable for it? If racism is used in order to make immoral and unjust decisions. Should that person or people not be held accountable for it. The protest are due to African Americans not believing that the people in power will hold people who do injust actions accountable when it comes to people of color. And the excuses and diversion tactics that have been stated only back this.

For arkrud to support Rudy Giulliani and characterize black people as more prone to commit crime, and therefore more suspicious and deserving of terror tactics, should be an insult to all our intelligence.

Plain and simple.

A MUST READ

Rudy Giuliani’s Racial Myths

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/12/opinion/rudy-giulianis-racial-myths.html?_r=0

I am listening to all opinions.
I have no prejudice for anybody and do not care which race/gender/sexual orientation/religion/political affiliation person is.
In fact I do not have any interest to know this things about people.
I am focused on what people say and especially what people do.
I do not support Republicans and do not support Democrats. Cannot see much difference in what they do and little in what they say.

I remember you describing Muslims and Arabs as savages and animals, and openly advocated genocide on this board. Bigotry only seems to be a problem when its directed at you.

You put somebody else words into my mouse.
If you can find the thread were I sad this please do.
All I said is "...not all Muslims are terrorists but almost all terrorist are Muslims".
And Arabs are my Semitic step-brothers. So I have no issues with them except of the times they want to cut my head off.
Not sure why you try do defend you opinion by attacking me personally. Usually it is the last resort of self-deception when person cannot find any factual arguments to prove his point.

"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy." Hamlet
WaltLongmire
Posts: 27623
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Joined: 6/28/2014
Member: #5843

7/12/2016  2:47 PM
arkrud wrote:
WaltLongmire wrote:
arkrud wrote:
Uptown wrote:The Blacks Lives Matters movement began when George Zimmerman killed and unarmed black teen named Trayvon Martin, and Zimmerman was not held accountable for the crime he committed. Since Martin's death in 2012, hundreds of unarmed black men and women were killed by police officers and most of them were not held accountable. When we say Black Lives Matter, we are talking about the ways in which Black people are deprived of our basic human rights and dignity, the injustices and the lack of accountability.

The laws, the constitution, the system was not created and written with black people in mind.....

I was always under impression constitution was created for all people.
I do not see any color or race specified anywhere. Do you?


Really? You are kidding, right?


Slaves were not considered full citizens...could not vote.

At one point the Supreme Court branded slaves as property.

Women, except for some short-lived moments, could not vote.

The Constitution had to be amended to give both groups full rights...we needed a Civil Rights movement to improve upon the amendments... and there are still issues.

Also seem to recall a war that might have been partially caused by how the Constitution did not protect blacks


A fine document, with many flaws that have needed to be fixed over time.

Do we still have slaves? Hmmm... I was under impression this is illegal.
And women I guess have full rights... even more rights that man in some areas like family.
It should be no lows which provides for any different treatment based on race/gender/sexual orientation/religion/national descent/political affiliation. That it. If this is not implemented in specific law the law must be change.


YOU used the word "created." It was not created to give ALL people rights, even if it gave lip service to that idea.

I know what you are getting at...you are looking at some kind of romanticized view of the Constitution...but that was not the reality of the times.

Sorry, but you are totally in error, here- there was no intent to give everyone equal rights in the original document.

EnySpree: Can we agree to agree not to mention Phil Jackson and triangle for the rest of our lives?
dk7th
Posts: 30006
Alba Posts: 1
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Member: #4228
USA
7/12/2016  3:01 PM
arkrud wrote:
WaltLongmire wrote:
arkrud wrote:
Uptown wrote:The Blacks Lives Matters movement began when George Zimmerman killed and unarmed black teen named Trayvon Martin, and Zimmerman was not held accountable for the crime he committed. Since Martin's death in 2012, hundreds of unarmed black men and women were killed by police officers and most of them were not held accountable. When we say Black Lives Matter, we are talking about the ways in which Black people are deprived of our basic human rights and dignity, the injustices and the lack of accountability.

The laws, the constitution, the system was not created and written with black people in mind.....

I was always under impression constitution was created for all people.
I do not see any color or race specified anywhere. Do you?


Really? You are kidding, right?


Slaves were not considered full citizens...could not vote.

At one point the Supreme Court branded slaves as property.

Women, except for some short-lived moments, could not vote.

The Constitution had to be amended to give both groups full rights...we needed a Civil Rights movement to improve upon the amendments... and there are still issues.

Also seem to recall a war that might have been partially caused by how the Constitution did not protect blacks


A fine document, with many flaws that have needed to be fixed over time.

Do we still have slaves? Hmmm... I was under impression this is illegal.
And women I guess have full rights... even more rights that man in some areas like family.
It should be no lows which provides for any different treatment based on race/gender/sexual orientation/religion/national descent/political affiliation. If this is not implemented in specific law the law must be changed.

we have had amendments to the constitution to reflect the changing times. several amendments were ratified during the civil war and in its aftermath, all involving slavery and slaves. the 19th amendment granted voting to women.

without amendments the united states constitution would not be the living and breathing document it was meant to be. so, getting back to the issue of guns in this country: the constitution needs to be changed to reflect the modern world of semi-automatic weapons in the possession of the citizenry and regular police forces.

knicks win 38-43 games in 16-17. rose MUST shoot no more than 14 shots per game, defer to kp6 + melo, and have a usage rate of less than 25%
meloshouldgo
Posts: 26565
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Member: #5801

7/12/2016  3:22 PM
gunsnewing wrote:
arkrud wrote:
NardDogNation wrote:
fishmike wrote:
NardDogNation wrote:
dk7th wrote:1) the nra needs to be demolished and gun shows heavily proctored where all invitees are thoroughly checked.
2) the second amendment needs to be re-written to ban semi-automatic weapons from both citizenry and the regular police forces. possessors of any such weapons should be tried for treason and put in jail for lengthy prison terms. **** "originalism."
3) marijuana needs to be legalized and heavily regulated and taxed
4) the very wealthiest should be taxed heavily and the majority of funds should be diverted to pre-k through grammar school programs for inner city minorities
5) teachers in inner city pre-k through grammar school programs should be amply rewarded to the degree they are trained and vetted for this work
6) police forces must be representative of the communities they are meant to serve, and if a demographic changes rapidly, such as in ferguson, then the policemen need to be relocated to other communities or furloughed by some federal oversight. this is similar to members of the army and their families.
7) every citizen between the ages of 18-24 must serve in the military for two years in a defensive capacity, defending our borders and ports.

that would be a good start.

Not bad proposals. I'd also want to expand no.5 to include the creation of teaching assistants for the classroom. I think it is simply unreasonable in this day and age to expect teachers to handle classrooms of 20 or more students without some assistance in helping keep the room orderly. We're able to spend $500,000 or your standard conventional bomb....we should be able to pay for programs like this.

And if funding does become a problem, I'd like to see Estate Taxes increased exponentially. I feel no one person should be inheriting more than $5 million worth of net assets under any circumstance. The last thing this society needs are more Donald Trumps of the world that clearly are not worthy of being a leader of anything simply by birth-right. You want to be a part of the ruling class, earn it and prove your utility to the whole.

those are pie in the sky proposals that indicate little understanding of how the gov work.

Also we are not a socialist state. This proposal to take away rich peoples money, keep it from their children and "make them earn it" is un-American. Tim Duncan has two kids. So if he and his wife die in a car crash his kids should only get $5mm each and the rest of the $100mm of his estate should go to inner city educational funds? Lets the gov decide what to do with it? Is that it?

Read about the NRA lobby, the size of its membership and its power in Washington, and why it exists in the first place. Dumping the NRA is as good a suggestion as "we should all just stop fighting and love each other." Good sentiments, no basis in reality.

Im not trying to throw water on your discussion or ideas, simply suggest that some things can be accomplished and others cannot, at least as the game is currently constructed. Might want to focus on what can be accomplished.

Start with decriminalizing all drugs. I think it was mentioned someone in the thread but those stiff laws go back the to Nixon administration where heroin (blacks) and marijuana (anti gov hippies) were used to all the gov to control groups it viewed as a threat. Now those laws just are avenues to continue the criminalization of poor minorities, the incarceration of the men/fathers of those communities, and rendering those lives as "don't matter."

Tough issues with generations of laws of lousy thinking to cut through

If those are pie-in-the-sky ideas, why does it seem that every industrialized country has managed to put these or similar measures into practice? Israel (and Turkey, I believe) has mandatory military-service laws. Weed is legal in Amsterdam(the Netherlands). France has very tight gun control laws and no viable opposition to them. So why can't we make in-roads to doing the same in this country?

And what founding document of our country articulates how our economy is suppose to function? And does it define an aggressive Estate Tax as explicitly "un-American"? If so, how or why? And if it's against socialist policies, how have Medicare, Medicaid, Social Security and the like been deemed Constitutional?

As for what I'd spend the increased revenue on, it'd basically look like the Bernie Sanders playbook: massive infrastructure investments, public (and inexpensive) healthcare for all, massive re-investment in public universities, etc.

Be careful at what you wish for...
Look at Russia, Cuba, North Korea, Venezuela, etc.
How socialism worked out for them? Not very cool.

and Brazil. I always get a kick out of Americans wanting socialism. What ends up happening is you relinquish your freedom and give the complete control to blatantly you as citizens. I know because my cousin is one of the ones impeached and indited on charges from Brazil's latest corruption scandals. I've seen how radical far left politicians are capable of ripping off a entire country and reap the benefits first hand

One of these days real soon after the next 2000 unarmed black people have been shot to death for the crime of being black one of you geniuses will realize we are already living in a society where non white people have already relinquished all their freedom. Including the freedom to walk on the street. Till then let's reiterate the same tired BS about socialist countries and pat ourselves on the back for being enlightened. It's working or great so far.

I cannot teach anybody anything. I can only try to make them think - Socrates
OT: Melo Steps Forward

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