BRIGGS wrote:

martin wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:Jus think about this---Allen Crabbe just turned 24 and he lead all of the NBA players in efg in the playoffs for a team that was very close to beating GS.
He's just going to get better. I think hes like a young Allan Houston. Hes the same size as Allan hes got a very similar touch. If you start to really think about it if we are going to spend money--first we have to OUTSPEND the rest of the NBA and Portland and it might have to have shock value. I look at our team and the nBA and we lack great outside shooting--and I think for pennies on the dollar(in terms of total cap)--we can go out and put big offers out there for Curry and Crabbe.

I agree. We have to take some chances somewhere. If we are going to take chances, we should do it on young players with good outside shots. We need to gamble on upside and fit, and these players hit on both criteria.

Knik--thats my absolute same thought process. Its pretty simple--I know Curry and Crabbe are good players who will help the team by extending the floor aT a MINIMUM---upside of both--well I really willing to bet on it. Im willing to take risk that I have better players here--but its going to take financial aggression.

How about this angle: WOuld you be willing to put in money to both of them to the point where you completely shut yourself out of the Market for 2017 free agents?

You cant Martin because its incrementally goes up. We have 18-22mm in cap as is. Spending 14 on Crabbe and 7.5mm on Curry is 21.5mm. Looking at him--I think he has the potential to be a 16-18 point guy who shoots an efficient high%. Im a Curry lover--I might be the only 1 on Ultimateknicks but I believe in my own two eyes. Hes a really good player and hed be great here. I like both players--both are fit players with upside--young really like them both.

Why do you say that you might be the only person on UltimateKnicks that likes Curry when you know in all your Curry threads that many of us like him just not for the $10 mil per you were talking about him being worth??

BRIGGS wrote:Allan Houston age 23 Detroit Pistons 14.5 points 2 assists 2 rebounds 2 pt FG% 46 3 pt 42% 26 minutes

Allen Crabbe age 23 Portland TrailBlazers 10.5 points 3 rebounds 1.2 asi fg% 46 3 pt 40% 25 minutes

Both are 6-6 210

Houston was in school for one more year, thus the 1 year difference in age. When the Knicks signed him Houston was breaking out. Crabbe is a role player that has shown some signs. Houston made $5mm his first year with the Knicks. Paying Crabbe $15mm, new cap or not is a really bad comparison.

Look at Houston's #s... the upward trend is impossible miss. Crabbe's trend is that of a guy struggling to make it in the NBA, and he had an up and down year at best.

Crabbe is a nice prospect. A guy who could be more, or could be another Gary Neal.

Look at his role in Portland. You are asking Crabbe to do a whole lot more. It doesn't add up. Too much risk vs. what we see

fishmike wrote:overspending on role players hoping they become more than they are is just as bad as trading picks. The Knicks are a 37 win team. You phuck up the cap and it really hurts your chance to grow. The best run teams do this. Show me some examples of guys who were overpaid for and popped into the high end rotation or all star types you are hoping for. Its just a bad bad bet.

Tristan Thompson, Chandler Parsons, Gordan Heyward, Nicolas Batum(1st FA), Chris Bosh, James Harden, and plenty more. Those are all star types and some all stars.

martin wrote:

wargames wrote:

martin wrote:

wargames wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:

fishmike wrote:overspending on role players hoping they become more than they are is just as bad as trading picks. The Knicks are a 37 win team. You phuck up the cap and it really hurts your chance to grow. The best run teams do this. Show me some examples of guys who were overpaid for and popped into the high end rotation or all star types you are hoping for. Its just a bad bad bet.

fishmike--thats old school. You're not understanding the cap. A contract for 14mm is like a contract for 8mm the previous year. Would you pay 8mm per for an up and coming player who lead all NBA players in eFG in the playoffs for a team that nearly knocked off the champions? A guy who proved to be a double digit scorer with high efficiency at the age of 23? We have C Early who at the age of 25 cant play well in the D league.

I have to agree here. A 14 Mil contract is not what it use to be. It'll be about 12% of the overall team cap space. 10% on a starter with potential is not that horrible at all. Especially for a player who provides something the team really needs. Outside shooting and defense at the guard position.

So, just math-wise, cap next year $92M, a $14M salary will be 15% or more of cap.

And the year after that it should be around 110 million making a 12 million dollar contract aroun 10% going forward

LOL, you keep changing up the numbers. We were talking about a $14M contract, not $12, right? $14M contract, with 8% raise (is that what you can get?) is still right about 14% of the cap the following year.

I believe the highest raises he can get is 4.5%

BRIGGS wrote:

fishmike wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:Allan Houston age 23 Detroit Pistons 14.5 points 2 assists 2 rebounds 2 pt FG% 46 3 pt 42% 26 minutes

Allen Crabbe age 23 Portland TrailBlazers 10.5 points 3 rebounds 1.2 asi fg% 46 3 pt 40% 25 minutes

Both are 6-6 210

Bad job. How about this:
Allan Houston age 24, 3rd year in NBA: 20ppg, 3.7rebs, 3.0assits
Allen Crabbe age 23, 3rd year in NBA: 10ppg, 2.7rebs 1.2assists

Houston was in school for one more year, thus the 1 year difference in age. When the Knicks signed him Houston was breaking out. Crabbe is a role player that has shown some signs. Houston made $5mm his first year with the Knicks. Paying Crabbe $15mm, new cap or not is a really bad comparison.

Look at Houston's #s... the upward trend is impossible miss. Crabbe's trend is that of a guy struggling to make it in the NBA, and he had an up and down year at best.

Crabbe is a nice prospect. A guy who could be more, or could be another Gary Neal.

Look at his role in Portland. You are asking Crabbe to do a whole lot more. It doesn't add up. Too much risk vs. what we see

If he was scoring 20 points a night--his contract would be north of 25mm--remember max contracts now are 25mm+++++ I dont think you watched much or any of the playoffs.

Agreed.

Based on the numbers they should be looking more at Evan Fournier as a comparison and he is likely going to be at the minimum a 18 mil a year player and could reach near 25 mil if someone decides to try and steal him.

yellowboy90 wrote:

fishmike wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:Allan Houston age 23 Detroit Pistons 14.5 points 2 assists 2 rebounds 2 pt FG% 46 3 pt 42% 26 minutes

Allen Crabbe age 23 Portland TrailBlazers 10.5 points 3 rebounds 1.2 asi fg% 46 3 pt 40% 25 minutes

Both are 6-6 210

Bad job. How about this:
Allan Houston age 24, 3rd year in NBA: 20ppg, 3.7rebs, 3.0assits
Allen Crabbe age 23, 3rd year in NBA: 10ppg, 2.7rebs 1.2assists

Houston was in school for one more year, thus the 1 year difference in age. When the Knicks signed him Houston was breaking out. Crabbe is a role player that has shown some signs. Houston made $5mm his first year with the Knicks. Paying Crabbe $15mm, new cap or not is a really bad comparison.

Look at Houston's #s... the upward trend is impossible miss. Crabbe's trend is that of a guy struggling to make it in the NBA, and he had an up and down year at best.

Crabbe is a nice prospect. A guy who could be more, or could be another Gary Neal.

Look at his role in Portland. You are asking Crabbe to do a whole lot more. It doesn't add up. Too much risk vs. what we see

A guy struggling to make it or just a guy drafted to a team that had major depth? He was behind Batum, Mathews, and McCollum his 1st two years. I guess you can also consider AA too when Portland wanted a veteran to go with their veterans. Now they want fire power off the bench so they can stagger McCollom's and Lillard's time.

To e its not about a guy struggling to stay in the league more so just had to wait his turn.

yellowboy90 wrote:

fishmike wrote:overspending on role players hoping they become more than they are is just as bad as trading picks. The Knicks are a 37 win team. You phuck up the cap and it really hurts your chance to grow. The best run teams do this. Show me some examples of guys who were overpaid for and popped into the high end rotation or all star types you are hoping for. Its just a bad bad bet.

Tristan Thompson, Chandler Parsons, Gordan Heyward, Nicolas Batum(1st FA), Chris Bosh, James Harden, and plenty more. Those are all star types and some all stars.

BRIGGS wrote:

fishmike wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:Allan Houston age 23 Detroit Pistons 14.5 points 2 assists 2 rebounds 2 pt FG% 46 3 pt 42% 26 minutes

Allen Crabbe age 23 Portland TrailBlazers 10.5 points 3 rebounds 1.2 asi fg% 46 3 pt 40% 25 minutes

Both are 6-6 210

Bad job. How about this:
Allan Houston age 24, 3rd year in NBA: 20ppg, 3.7rebs, 3.0assits
Allen Crabbe age 23, 3rd year in NBA: 10ppg, 2.7rebs 1.2assists

Houston was in school for one more year, thus the 1 year difference in age. When the Knicks signed him Houston was breaking out. Crabbe is a role player that has shown some signs. Houston made $5mm his first year with the Knicks. Paying Crabbe $15mm, new cap or not is a really bad comparison.

Look at Houston's #s... the upward trend is impossible miss. Crabbe's trend is that of a guy struggling to make it in the NBA, and he had an up and down year at best.

Crabbe is a nice prospect. A guy who could be more, or could be another Gary Neal.

Look at his role in Portland. You are asking Crabbe to do a whole lot more. It doesn't add up. Too much risk vs. what we see

If he was scoring 20 points a night--his contract would be north of 25mm--remember max contracts now are 25mm+++++ I dont think you watched much or any of the playoffs.

why would you discount Houston like that... I would say Marco Bellini is a better comp

BRIGGS wrote:

fishmike wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:fishmike exactly who do you want? lol You think were getting great players for 7mm with the cap rising--you think Russell Westbrook is coming here in 2 years---get real.

LOL at you buddy. You think Darren Collison is one of the best defensive guards in the league, and he only makes $7mm so sure man... yea, lets get a great player like that ok?

I have been open about what I think is best. If you cant land a big fish you stay the course and focus on building from within. Go out and buy and grow your own Crabbes and Currys.

I think you pay much attention to the NBA at all Briggs. Teams that overpay for role players screw themselves. Teams that build from within have an influx of talent and a cap friendly roster.
Curry
Westbrook
Blake
Chris Paul
Greak Freak
Ibaka
Lowry
Gobert
Haywood
Oladipo
Mirotic
Schroder
Gallinari
Steve Adams (have you been watching the playoffs Briggs?)
JRue Holiday

And many many others.. but why have flexibility for that FA class when we can sign Crabbe and Goyle NOW?

You know what? If we whiff on everyone of them and just keep drafting and building I am fine with that. If you build this team up to at least be a .500 low seeded playoff team with the cap space to attract 2 max type players that is how you build via FA.

We have almost no shot for any of those players--I feel very comfortable saying paying Crabbe 14mm and Curry 7.5mm(which i hope would be considered overpaying by their own teams). I still think its more likely that their teams would still match. This is NO easy process. But I wouldnt build a team hoping that Steph Curry was coming here. If he wanted to come here we can make space. In the meantime deal with reality. NYK has had NO luck with tier 1 free agents in 25 years.

Knicks have had cap space like 3 times in the last 25 years

What else ya got?

wargames wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

fishmike wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:Allan Houston age 23 Detroit Pistons 14.5 points 2 assists 2 rebounds 2 pt FG% 46 3 pt 42% 26 minutes

Allen Crabbe age 23 Portland TrailBlazers 10.5 points 3 rebounds 1.2 asi fg% 46 3 pt 40% 25 minutes

Both are 6-6 210

Bad job. How about this:
Allan Houston age 24, 3rd year in NBA: 20ppg, 3.7rebs, 3.0assits
Allen Crabbe age 23, 3rd year in NBA: 10ppg, 2.7rebs 1.2assists

Houston was in school for one more year, thus the 1 year difference in age. When the Knicks signed him Houston was breaking out. Crabbe is a role player that has shown some signs. Houston made $5mm his first year with the Knicks. Paying Crabbe $15mm, new cap or not is a really bad comparison.

Look at Houston's #s... the upward trend is impossible miss. Crabbe's trend is that of a guy struggling to make it in the NBA, and he had an up and down year at best.

Crabbe is a nice prospect. A guy who could be more, or could be another Gary Neal.

Look at his role in Portland. You are asking Crabbe to do a whole lot more. It doesn't add up. Too much risk vs. what we see

I mentioned this earlier in one of these threads, but Evan Fournier is the closest thing to Allan Houston as far as age, production, position, and style of play amongst free agents.

yea... look at Fournier's year after year progression. Look at Crabbes. Big difference. Briggs is too busy listening to his own genius thoughts bouncing around in his head to see this. Want to splurge on a young guard? Offering Fournier the max (I think about $19-$20mm for him) makes a 10000x more sense than throwing $15mm at Crabbe. Forn has shown a progression worth investing in and taking a risk. Crabbe has not. You must be a hell of a scout to see Alan Houston in Crabbe.

Briggs obsesses about players, posts about them daily and sounds off like a condescending twat if you cant see his brilliance. Get over it dude.

Crabbe had a very good series against Portland. He had a very pedestrian one against the Clippers. But what do I know.. I don't really follow the NBA or watch the playoffs. Funny stuff. Lets offer every bench player who had a good playoff series $15mm.

Unlike Briggs I'm not saying Crabbe is Houston. I'm saying he's a actual gettable RFA who could be a starter for the knicks based on the triangle and the need for an efficient shooter to space the floor. Fournier is clearly a better player but Orlando has already said they will match any offer for him and I don't doubt them at all. With the cap going up the only RFA's who can be stolen worth a damn will be guys like Crabbe. System players who could take on a bigger workload in another system.