nixluva wrote:

holfresh wrote:

dk7th wrote:

holfresh wrote:

knickscity wrote:

holfresh wrote:

dk7th wrote:

holfresh wrote:

mreinman wrote:@holfresh

how are you reading those charts? Do you see how many attempts LA takes in those crappy areas?

Much as I hate to admit it, dk7 is right..He does take some horrible shots...What's even more crazy is some of those long two's are turn around jumpers...I think those shots changes when he isn't the primary option and he does have to feel he needs to take those shots to carry the team...Sort of like Melo forcing bad shots as well...These two players needs better players around them..

never mind who spoke the truth, me or whomever-- the truth is the truth. he needs to tighten up his game if he wants to win and what better place than san antonio to do that. god bless them and now lets focus on the new york knickerbockers.

U can start with tightening up the office of Head of Basketball Operations then the coaching staff..

Are you suggesting removing Phil and Fisher?

I would suggest before removing them, the way things works needs to be retooled..Part of the problem in my opinion is that Jackson should allow his coach to dictate how the team plays..I believe players have to believe and bond with their coaches...The system that currently exist now where Jackson is calling all the shots hurts the team...It's ego...Fisher is a puppet...That should change to see if this guy can really coach...

your take on the state of the knicks here in this post just about sums it up for me: you are delusional

I'll go one further..Insisting that his coach and the organization run the triangle almost guarantees the entire system gets scrapped as soon as Jackson leaves..So the idea of a foundation is being build for the future is pure fantasy..

You don't even know when Phil is going to leave. You don't know how things will have developed by that time. The offense has already been tweaked and will no doubt be tweaked some more. Even Phil kept tweaking the Triangle over the decades he was coaching. It was always changed to take advantage of talent Phil had and will be for this team as well.

You really have a low regard for a system that has won a ton of games, playoffs and titles. What kind of logic are you bringing to the table with that kind of attitude towards a highly successful system. How many modern offensive systems have been used by teams to win multiple 3peats? Even teams with great talent have found it difficult to pull off the 3peat. Obviously not many systems have been used to do that! So why should Fish and Phil abandon one that has been that successful?

Talk about a the success of the system when it didn't have the best players and best coach running it..I keep remembering the smart young lady who is a commentator on ESPN saying it took her three years to learn the triangle at Stanford..

holfresh wrote:

nixluva wrote:

holfresh wrote:

dk7th wrote:

holfresh wrote:

knickscity wrote:

holfresh wrote:

dk7th wrote:

holfresh wrote:

mreinman wrote:@holfresh

how are you reading those charts? Do you see how many attempts LA takes in those crappy areas?

Much as I hate to admit it, dk7 is right..He does take some horrible shots...What's even more crazy is some of those long two's are turn around jumpers...I think those shots changes when he isn't the primary option and he does have to feel he needs to take those shots to carry the team...Sort of like Melo forcing bad shots as well...These two players needs better players around them..

never mind who spoke the truth, me or whomever-- the truth is the truth. he needs to tighten up his game if he wants to win and what better place than san antonio to do that. god bless them and now lets focus on the new york knickerbockers.

U can start with tightening up the office of Head of Basketball Operations then the coaching staff..

Are you suggesting removing Phil and Fisher?

I would suggest before removing them, the way things works needs to be retooled..Part of the problem in my opinion is that Jackson should allow his coach to dictate how the team plays..I believe players have to believe and bond with their coaches...The system that currently exist now where Jackson is calling all the shots hurts the team...It's ego...Fisher is a puppet...That should change to see if this guy can really coach...

your take on the state of the knicks here in this post just about sums it up for me: you are delusional

I'll go one further..Insisting that his coach and the organization run the triangle almost guarantees the entire system gets scrapped as soon as Jackson leaves..So the idea of a foundation is being build for the future is pure fantasy..

You don't even know when Phil is going to leave. You don't know how things will have developed by that time. The offense has already been tweaked and will no doubt be tweaked some more. Even Phil kept tweaking the Triangle over the decades he was coaching. It was always changed to take advantage of talent Phil had and will be for this team as well.

You really have a low regard for a system that has won a ton of games, playoffs and titles. What kind of logic are you bringing to the table with that kind of attitude towards a highly successful system. How many modern offensive systems have been used by teams to win multiple 3peats? Even teams with great talent have found it difficult to pull off the 3peat. Obviously not many systems have been used to do that! So why should Fish and Phil abandon one that has been that successful?

Talk about a the success of the system when it didn't have the best players and best coach running it..I keep remembering the smart young lady who is a commentator on ESPN saying it took her three years to learn the triangle at Stanford..

Yep - Melo will never get the triangle for sure and this is a tragedy.
We need something more simple... and some simple coaches back... like Woodhead or Isiah...
Having smart players, coaches, and GM is a tragedy. Us fans will look and sound stupid... and this will be a shame...

holfresh wrote:

arkrud wrote:

holfresh wrote:

nixluva wrote:

holfresh wrote:

dk7th wrote:

holfresh wrote:

knickscity wrote:

holfresh wrote:

dk7th wrote:

holfresh wrote:

mreinman wrote:@holfresh

how are you reading those charts? Do you see how many attempts LA takes in those crappy areas?

Much as I hate to admit it, dk7 is right..He does take some horrible shots...What's even more crazy is some of those long two's are turn around jumpers...I think those shots changes when he isn't the primary option and he does have to feel he needs to take those shots to carry the team...Sort of like Melo forcing bad shots as well...These two players needs better players around them..

never mind who spoke the truth, me or whomever-- the truth is the truth. he needs to tighten up his game if he wants to win and what better place than san antonio to do that. god bless them and now lets focus on the new york knickerbockers.

U can start with tightening up the office of Head of Basketball Operations then the coaching staff..

Are you suggesting removing Phil and Fisher?

I would suggest before removing them, the way things works needs to be retooled..Part of the problem in my opinion is that Jackson should allow his coach to dictate how the team plays..I believe players have to believe and bond with their coaches...The system that currently exist now where Jackson is calling all the shots hurts the team...It's ego...Fisher is a puppet...That should change to see if this guy can really coach...

your take on the state of the knicks here in this post just about sums it up for me: you are delusional

I'll go one further..Insisting that his coach and the organization run the triangle almost guarantees the entire system gets scrapped as soon as Jackson leaves..So the idea of a foundation is being build for the future is pure fantasy..

You don't even know when Phil is going to leave. You don't know how things will have developed by that time. The offense has already been tweaked and will no doubt be tweaked some more. Even Phil kept tweaking the Triangle over the decades he was coaching. It was always changed to take advantage of talent Phil had and will be for this team as well.

You really have a low regard for a system that has won a ton of games, playoffs and titles. What kind of logic are you bringing to the table with that kind of attitude towards a highly successful system. How many modern offensive systems have been used by teams to win multiple 3peats? Even teams with great talent have found it difficult to pull off the 3peat. Obviously not many systems have been used to do that! So why should Fish and Phil abandon one that has been that successful?

Talk about a the success of the system when it didn't have the best players and best coach running it..I keep remembering the smart young lady who is a commentator on ESPN saying it took her three years to learn the triangle at Stanford..

Yep - Melo will never get the triangle for sure and this is a tragedy.
We need something more simple... and some simple coaches back... like Woodhead or Isiah...
Having smart players, coaches, and GM is a tragedy. Us fans will look and sound stupid... and this will be a shame...

The simple Woodheads win 54 games and the brain trust wins 17 games..And I am the stupid one...

54 wins are sure better than 17. Not sure it was more entertaining.
I think it was boring as hell... and pointless.
The 90th Knicks teams were sure boring too but it was a sense of purpose.
This 54 win team was professional but helpless. The shadows of the past glory.
I am more exited about future hope.

holfresh wrote:

arkrud wrote:

holfresh wrote:

arkrud wrote:

holfresh wrote:

nixluva wrote:

holfresh wrote:

dk7th wrote:

holfresh wrote:

knickscity wrote:

holfresh wrote:

dk7th wrote:

holfresh wrote:

mreinman wrote:@holfresh

how are you reading those charts? Do you see how many attempts LA takes in those crappy areas?

Much as I hate to admit it, dk7 is right..He does take some horrible shots...What's even more crazy is some of those long two's are turn around jumpers...I think those shots changes when he isn't the primary option and he does have to feel he needs to take those shots to carry the team...Sort of like Melo forcing bad shots as well...These two players needs better players around them..

never mind who spoke the truth, me or whomever-- the truth is the truth. he needs to tighten up his game if he wants to win and what better place than san antonio to do that. god bless them and now lets focus on the new york knickerbockers.

U can start with tightening up the office of Head of Basketball Operations then the coaching staff..

Are you suggesting removing Phil and Fisher?

I would suggest before removing them, the way things works needs to be retooled..Part of the problem in my opinion is that Jackson should allow his coach to dictate how the team plays..I believe players have to believe and bond with their coaches...The system that currently exist now where Jackson is calling all the shots hurts the team...It's ego...Fisher is a puppet...That should change to see if this guy can really coach...

your take on the state of the knicks here in this post just about sums it up for me: you are delusional

I'll go one further..Insisting that his coach and the organization run the triangle almost guarantees the entire system gets scrapped as soon as Jackson leaves..So the idea of a foundation is being build for the future is pure fantasy..

You don't even know when Phil is going to leave. You don't know how things will have developed by that time. The offense has already been tweaked and will no doubt be tweaked some more. Even Phil kept tweaking the Triangle over the decades he was coaching. It was always changed to take advantage of talent Phil had and will be for this team as well.

You really have a low regard for a system that has won a ton of games, playoffs and titles. What kind of logic are you bringing to the table with that kind of attitude towards a highly successful system. How many modern offensive systems have been used by teams to win multiple 3peats? Even teams with great talent have found it difficult to pull off the 3peat. Obviously not many systems have been used to do that! So why should Fish and Phil abandon one that has been that successful?

Talk about a the success of the system when it didn't have the best players and best coach running it..I keep remembering the smart young lady who is a commentator on ESPN saying it took her three years to learn the triangle at Stanford..

Yep - Melo will never get the triangle for sure and this is a tragedy.
We need something more simple... and some simple coaches back... like Woodhead or Isiah...
Having smart players, coaches, and GM is a tragedy. Us fans will look and sound stupid... and this will be a shame...

The simple Woodheads win 54 games and the brain trust wins 17 games..And I am the stupid one...

54 wins are sure better than 17. Not sure it was more entertaining.
I think it was boring as hell... and pointless.
The 90th Knicks teams were sure boring too but it was a sense of purpose.
This 54 win team was professional but helpless. The shadows of the past glory.
I am more exited about future hope.

Let me get this straight..Watching your team lose 65 games in a 82 game season is entertaining...The epic battles with the Bulls, Heat, Charlotte, Cavs and Indiana in the 90s were boring...Watching your team build built with DLeagers and cast offs inspires hope for the future...There is a term for all this..Delusional...

Relax francis, 90's low scoring teams in epic defensive battles are great memories but the games were kind of a drag. They were full of purpose because knicks contended and we all rooted heavy.
Can't take a whole decade and romance it. Some teams were not as good as others and some of the Miami games were low scoring. "epic defensive battles" or "Can Charlie ward hit a phuching shot please"! "Oak slapping everyone one can't hit the side of a barn tonite". Not every game was a masterpiece.

54 win team we all knew were not going anywhere. Great april by Melo got us a good seeding but the team fell aged and fell apart in the playoffs.

If the man enjoyed watching the roster turn over and see some rookies and yoots play who are we to tell him otherwise. Delusional? No, just honest.

Akrud is not stuck in a youtube highlight.

holfresh wrote:

arkrud wrote:

holfresh wrote:

nixluva wrote:

holfresh wrote:

dk7th wrote:

holfresh wrote:

knickscity wrote:

holfresh wrote:

dk7th wrote:

holfresh wrote:

mreinman wrote:@holfresh

how are you reading those charts? Do you see how many attempts LA takes in those crappy areas?

Much as I hate to admit it, dk7 is right..He does take some horrible shots...What's even more crazy is some of those long two's are turn around jumpers...I think those shots changes when he isn't the primary option and he does have to feel he needs to take those shots to carry the team...Sort of like Melo forcing bad shots as well...These two players needs better players around them..

never mind who spoke the truth, me or whomever-- the truth is the truth. he needs to tighten up his game if he wants to win and what better place than san antonio to do that. god bless them and now lets focus on the new york knickerbockers.

U can start with tightening up the office of Head of Basketball Operations then the coaching staff..

Are you suggesting removing Phil and Fisher?

I would suggest before removing them, the way things works needs to be retooled..Part of the problem in my opinion is that Jackson should allow his coach to dictate how the team plays..I believe players have to believe and bond with their coaches...The system that currently exist now where Jackson is calling all the shots hurts the team...It's ego...Fisher is a puppet...That should change to see if this guy can really coach...

your take on the state of the knicks here in this post just about sums it up for me: you are delusional

I'll go one further..Insisting that his coach and the organization run the triangle almost guarantees the entire system gets scrapped as soon as Jackson leaves..So the idea of a foundation is being build for the future is pure fantasy..

You don't even know when Phil is going to leave. You don't know how things will have developed by that time. The offense has already been tweaked and will no doubt be tweaked some more. Even Phil kept tweaking the Triangle over the decades he was coaching. It was always changed to take advantage of talent Phil had and will be for this team as well.

You really have a low regard for a system that has won a ton of games, playoffs and titles. What kind of logic are you bringing to the table with that kind of attitude towards a highly successful system. How many modern offensive systems have been used by teams to win multiple 3peats? Even teams with great talent have found it difficult to pull off the 3peat. Obviously not many systems have been used to do that! So why should Fish and Phil abandon one that has been that successful?

Talk about a the success of the system when it didn't have the best players and best coach running it..I keep remembering the smart young lady who is a commentator on ESPN saying it took her three years to learn the triangle at Stanford..

Yep - Melo will never get the triangle for sure and this is a tragedy.
We need something more simple... and some simple coaches back... like Woodhead or Isiah...
Having smart players, coaches, and GM is a tragedy. Us fans will look and sound stupid... and this will be a shame...

The simple Woodheads win 54 games and the brain trust wins 17 games..And I am the stupid one...

Why do you keep going back to the 54 win team from 3 years ago and conveniently forget the aging, capped out, declining 37 win team that Woodson could not coach properly. I'll take a 17 win season if it is the beginning of starting in a new advancing direction. There is no way to know this for sure until this season plays out.

foosballnick wrote:

holfresh wrote:

arkrud wrote:

holfresh wrote:

nixluva wrote:

holfresh wrote:

dk7th wrote:

holfresh wrote:

knickscity wrote:

holfresh wrote:

dk7th wrote:

holfresh wrote:

mreinman wrote:@holfresh

how are you reading those charts? Do you see how many attempts LA takes in those crappy areas?

Much as I hate to admit it, dk7 is right..He does take some horrible shots...What's even more crazy is some of those long two's are turn around jumpers...I think those shots changes when he isn't the primary option and he does have to feel he needs to take those shots to carry the team...Sort of like Melo forcing bad shots as well...These two players needs better players around them..

never mind who spoke the truth, me or whomever-- the truth is the truth. he needs to tighten up his game if he wants to win and what better place than san antonio to do that. god bless them and now lets focus on the new york knickerbockers.

U can start with tightening up the office of Head of Basketball Operations then the coaching staff..

Are you suggesting removing Phil and Fisher?

I would suggest before removing them, the way things works needs to be retooled..Part of the problem in my opinion is that Jackson should allow his coach to dictate how the team plays..I believe players have to believe and bond with their coaches...The system that currently exist now where Jackson is calling all the shots hurts the team...It's ego...Fisher is a puppet...That should change to see if this guy can really coach...

your take on the state of the knicks here in this post just about sums it up for me: you are delusional

I'll go one further..Insisting that his coach and the organization run the triangle almost guarantees the entire system gets scrapped as soon as Jackson leaves..So the idea of a foundation is being build for the future is pure fantasy..

You don't even know when Phil is going to leave. You don't know how things will have developed by that time. The offense has already been tweaked and will no doubt be tweaked some more. Even Phil kept tweaking the Triangle over the decades he was coaching. It was always changed to take advantage of talent Phil had and will be for this team as well.

You really have a low regard for a system that has won a ton of games, playoffs and titles. What kind of logic are you bringing to the table with that kind of attitude towards a highly successful system. How many modern offensive systems have been used by teams to win multiple 3peats? Even teams with great talent have found it difficult to pull off the 3peat. Obviously not many systems have been used to do that! So why should Fish and Phil abandon one that has been that successful?

Talk about a the success of the system when it didn't have the best players and best coach running it..I keep remembering the smart young lady who is a commentator on ESPN saying it took her three years to learn the triangle at Stanford..

Yep - Melo will never get the triangle for sure and this is a tragedy.
We need something more simple... and some simple coaches back... like Woodhead or Isiah...
Having smart players, coaches, and GM is a tragedy. Us fans will look and sound stupid... and this will be a shame...

The simple Woodheads win 54 games and the brain trust wins 17 games..And I am the stupid one...

Why do you keep going back to the 54 win team from 3 years ago and conveniently forget the aging, capped out, declining 37 win team that Woodson could not coach properly. I'll take a 17 win season if it is the beginning of starting in a new advancing direction. There is no way to know this for sure until this season plays out.

Because the dismantle was well underway the summer after the 54 win season..The 37 win season was a byproduct of Dolan's actions...Woodson could not coach properly but somehow got the best out his players...Amazing...

holfresh wrote:

foosballnick wrote:

holfresh wrote:

arkrud wrote:

holfresh wrote:

nixluva wrote:

holfresh wrote:

dk7th wrote:

holfresh wrote:

knickscity wrote:

holfresh wrote:

dk7th wrote:

holfresh wrote:

mreinman wrote:@holfresh

how are you reading those charts? Do you see how many attempts LA takes in those crappy areas?

Much as I hate to admit it, dk7 is right..He does take some horrible shots...What's even more crazy is some of those long two's are turn around jumpers...I think those shots changes when he isn't the primary option and he does have to feel he needs to take those shots to carry the team...Sort of like Melo forcing bad shots as well...These two players needs better players around them..

never mind who spoke the truth, me or whomever-- the truth is the truth. he needs to tighten up his game if he wants to win and what better place than san antonio to do that. god bless them and now lets focus on the new york knickerbockers.

U can start with tightening up the office of Head of Basketball Operations then the coaching staff..

Are you suggesting removing Phil and Fisher?

I would suggest before removing them, the way things works needs to be retooled..Part of the problem in my opinion is that Jackson should allow his coach to dictate how the team plays..I believe players have to believe and bond with their coaches...The system that currently exist now where Jackson is calling all the shots hurts the team...It's ego...Fisher is a puppet...That should change to see if this guy can really coach...

your take on the state of the knicks here in this post just about sums it up for me: you are delusional

I'll go one further..Insisting that his coach and the organization run the triangle almost guarantees the entire system gets scrapped as soon as Jackson leaves..So the idea of a foundation is being build for the future is pure fantasy..

You don't even know when Phil is going to leave. You don't know how things will have developed by that time. The offense has already been tweaked and will no doubt be tweaked some more. Even Phil kept tweaking the Triangle over the decades he was coaching. It was always changed to take advantage of talent Phil had and will be for this team as well.

You really have a low regard for a system that has won a ton of games, playoffs and titles. What kind of logic are you bringing to the table with that kind of attitude towards a highly successful system. How many modern offensive systems have been used by teams to win multiple 3peats? Even teams with great talent have found it difficult to pull off the 3peat. Obviously not many systems have been used to do that! So why should Fish and Phil abandon one that has been that successful?

Talk about a the success of the system when it didn't have the best players and best coach running it..I keep remembering the smart young lady who is a commentator on ESPN saying it took her three years to learn the triangle at Stanford..

Yep - Melo will never get the triangle for sure and this is a tragedy.
We need something more simple... and some simple coaches back... like Woodhead or Isiah...
Having smart players, coaches, and GM is a tragedy. Us fans will look and sound stupid... and this will be a shame...

The simple Woodheads win 54 games and the brain trust wins 17 games..And I am the stupid one...

Why do you keep going back to the 54 win team from 3 years ago and conveniently forget the aging, capped out, declining 37 win team that Woodson could not coach properly. I'll take a 17 win season if it is the beginning of starting in a new advancing direction. There is no way to know this for sure until this season plays out.

Because the dismantle was well underway the summer after the 54 win season..The 37 win season was a byproduct of Dolan's actions...Woodson could not coach properly but somehow got the best out his players...Amazing...

foosballnick wrote:

holfresh wrote:

Why do you keep going back to the 54 win team from 3 years ago and conveniently forget the aging, capped out, declining 37 win team that Woodson could not coach properly. I'll take a 17 win season if it is the beginning of starting in a new advancing direction. There is no way to know this for sure until this season plays out.

Because the dismantle was well underway the summer after the 54 win season..The 37 win season was a byproduct of Dolan's actions...Woodson could not coach properly but somehow got the best out his players...Amazing...

I'm curious as to your claim regarding the dismantling of the 54 Win team was well underway during that summer.......

The Knicks retained the following core players from the 54 Win Season:

Carmelo Anthony
Tyson Chandler
Raymond Felton
Kenyon Martin
Pablo Prigioni
Iman Shumpert
J.R. Smith
Amar'e Stoudemire

The following non-factor players during 54 win season were either traded or removed from the roster....

Earl Barron
Solomon Jones
Marcus Camby
Quentin Richardson
James White
Ronnie Brewer (traded during 54 win season in February)
Kurt Thomas (waived during 54 win season in April)

Only 3 Players useful from Previous Roster were changed:
Jason Kidd screwed the team by retiring to coach the Nets in Year 1 of a 3 year Deal
Novak was traded as part of the Deal to acquire Bargnani
Copeland who was not a significant contributor during the regular season was a Free Agent who signed a bigger deal in Indy

The Knicks drafted Hardaway and brought in role players such as MWP, Aldrich and Udrih

These moves do not constitute a Roster Dismantle. There were obviously roster Tweaks similar to the ones that almost every NBA team performs every year. Bottom line is that the Woodson won 37 games with basically the same roster structure as the prior year except for Kidd. So the credit for that 54 win team should likely go more to Kidd than Woodson.

holfresh wrote:

foosballnick wrote:

foosballnick wrote:

holfresh wrote:

Why do you keep going back to the 54 win team from 3 years ago and conveniently forget the aging, capped out, declining 37 win team that Woodson could not coach properly. I'll take a 17 win season if it is the beginning of starting in a new advancing direction. There is no way to know this for sure until this season plays out.

Because the dismantle was well underway the summer after the 54 win season..The 37 win season was a byproduct of Dolan's actions...Woodson could not coach properly but somehow got the best out his players...Amazing...

I'm curious as to your claim regarding the dismantling of the 54 Win team was well underway during that summer.......

The Knicks retained the following core players from the 54 Win Season:

Carmelo Anthony
Tyson Chandler
Raymond Felton
Kenyon Martin
Pablo Prigioni
Iman Shumpert
J.R. Smith
Amar'e Stoudemire

The following non-factor players during 54 win season were either traded or removed from the roster....

Earl Barron
Solomon Jones
Marcus Camby
Quentin Richardson
James White
Ronnie Brewer (traded during 54 win season in February)
Kurt Thomas (waived during 54 win season in April)

Only 3 Players useful from Previous Roster were changed:
Jason Kidd screwed the team by retiring to coach the Nets in Year 1 of a 3 year Deal
Novak was traded as part of the Deal to acquire Bargnani
Copeland who was not a significant contributor during the regular season was a Free Agent who signed a bigger deal in Indy

The Knicks drafted Hardaway and brought in role players such as MWP, Aldrich and Udrih

These moves do not constitute a Roster Dismantle. There were obviously roster Tweaks similar to the ones that almost every NBA team performs every year. Bottom line is that the Woodson won 37 games with basically the same roster structure as the prior year except for Kidd. So the credit for that 54 win team should likely go more to Kidd than Woodson.

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/basketball/knicks/dolan-old-tricks-calling-shakeup-article-1.1470237
With the Brooklyn Nets having won the offseason with several franchise-changing moves and Dolan still bitter about a second-round playoff loss to the Indiana Pacers, the impulsive owner of the Knicks decided it was time for a shakeup.


Grunwald was fired, Mills was hired, the infrastructure in place in the front office was dismantled, Phil Jackson talks in December...Everyone on the planet except maybe you knew Woodson was done...He lost the team...So yeah, you could pretend that all this doesn't matter hang the 37 win season on him, it still more than doubles Fishers first and likely second year...Credit JKIdd with the 54 win and Lin with the 18-6...Woodson's real season was the 37 win season...

I sure wish everyone had a season and a half to show their wares...

OK - so then by your logic the 17 Win Season should not be used as a comparitor since Phil decided to start the Tanking process in December.

foosballnick wrote:

holfresh wrote:

foosballnick wrote:

foosballnick wrote:

holfresh wrote:

Why do you keep going back to the 54 win team from 3 years ago and conveniently forget the aging, capped out, declining 37 win team that Woodson could not coach properly. I'll take a 17 win season if it is the beginning of starting in a new advancing direction. There is no way to know this for sure until this season plays out.

Because the dismantle was well underway the summer after the 54 win season..The 37 win season was a byproduct of Dolan's actions...Woodson could not coach properly but somehow got the best out his players...Amazing...

I'm curious as to your claim regarding the dismantling of the 54 Win team was well underway during that summer.......

The Knicks retained the following core players from the 54 Win Season:

Carmelo Anthony
Tyson Chandler
Raymond Felton
Kenyon Martin
Pablo Prigioni
Iman Shumpert
J.R. Smith
Amar'e Stoudemire

The following non-factor players during 54 win season were either traded or removed from the roster....

Earl Barron
Solomon Jones
Marcus Camby
Quentin Richardson
James White
Ronnie Brewer (traded during 54 win season in February)
Kurt Thomas (waived during 54 win season in April)

Only 3 Players useful from Previous Roster were changed:
Jason Kidd screwed the team by retiring to coach the Nets in Year 1 of a 3 year Deal
Novak was traded as part of the Deal to acquire Bargnani
Copeland who was not a significant contributor during the regular season was a Free Agent who signed a bigger deal in Indy

The Knicks drafted Hardaway and brought in role players such as MWP, Aldrich and Udrih

These moves do not constitute a Roster Dismantle. There were obviously roster Tweaks similar to the ones that almost every NBA team performs every year. Bottom line is that the Woodson won 37 games with basically the same roster structure as the prior year except for Kidd. So the credit for that 54 win team should likely go more to Kidd than Woodson.

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/basketball/knicks/dolan-old-tricks-calling-shakeup-article-1.1470237
With the Brooklyn Nets having won the offseason with several franchise-changing moves and Dolan still bitter about a second-round playoff loss to the Indiana Pacers, the impulsive owner of the Knicks decided it was time for a shakeup.


Grunwald was fired, Mills was hired, the infrastructure in place in the front office was dismantled, Phil Jackson talks in December...Everyone on the planet except maybe you knew Woodson was done...He lost the team...So yeah, you could pretend that all this doesn't matter hang the 37 win season on him, it still more than doubles Fishers first and likely second year...Credit JKIdd with the 54 win and Lin with the 18-6...Woodson's real season was the 37 win season...

I sure wish everyone had a season and a half to show their wares...

OK - so then by your logic the 17 Win Season should not be used as a comparitor since Phil decided to start the Tanking process in December.

They were trying to win...They went 5-32 before Phil decided to clean house in January...The season was already lost...They were on pace to win 13 games...He might have screwed up the tank by actually trying to tank...