mreinman wrote:

gunsnewing wrote:

mreinman wrote:

gunsnewing wrote:If Charlotte takes Calderon/THJ off our hands wouldn't you prefer Stephenson who at least has upside and defends?

I want high character guys who I know have their head on straight and will bring it ever day and does not do Soaps.

I think you can get by with one nutcase as long as you have talent elsewhere and they keep him in check. I believe It's the Rodman rule

so you think that our team is ready for a rodman?

Who knows, it would be a trial run and if he doesn't work out he is gone, clearing cap space that Calderon would take up

yellowboy90 wrote:

mreinman wrote:

gunsnewing wrote:

mreinman wrote:

gunsnewing wrote:If Charlotte takes Calderon/THJ off our hands wouldn't you prefer Stephenson who at least has upside and defends?

I want high character guys who I know have their head on straight and will bring it ever day and does not do Soaps.

I think you can get by with one nutcase as long as you have talent elsewhere and they keep him in check. I believe It's the Rodman rule

so you think that our team is ready for a rodman?

Who knows, it would be a trial run and if he doesn't work out he is gone, clearing cap space that Calderon would take up

yellowboy90 wrote:

mreinman wrote:

gunsnewing wrote:

mreinman wrote:

gunsnewing wrote:If Charlotte takes Calderon/THJ off our hands wouldn't you prefer Stephenson who at least has upside and defends?

I want high character guys who I know have their head on straight and will bring it ever day and does not do Soaps.

I think you can get by with one nutcase as long as you have talent elsewhere and they keep him in check. I believe It's the Rodman rule

so you think that our team is ready for a rodman?

Who knows, it would be a trial run and if he doesn't work out he is gone, clearing cap space that Calderon would take up

can we afford his psyche for even one year? This team needs stability and they got rid of the dopes already.

I don't see phil doing this at all.

Of course, I have no clue what phil is gonna do and none of us have a clue.

Has phil made one move yet that was predicted?

nixluva wrote:

TripleThreat wrote:

nixluva wrote: So save us the crap about us not caring about defense. However, if they can't draft Towns, there are centers Phil could get in Free Agency who are good rim protectors. It's also important to have a functioning offense. Rim protection is only one aspect of defense. Phil is looking for more players who can provide defense on the perimeter as well. He's not trying to build a weak defensive team.

So your solution is what I said before, TO SPEND EVEN MORE MONEY ON THE FRONTLINE. This after giving Melo, a bad defender, a massive contract. Then again after what you propose is signing Monroe, who is going to want max dollars. Melo already chews up 40 percent of the cap. Then you add in Calderon's ugly contract that is pretty much immovable at this point. Add in a max deal for Monroe ( are we going to pretend he's coming to NY at a massive discount?) Then SPEND MORE on a rim protecting center? And unlike the Briggs-ian "It's ok to conjure up a rape contract scenario where a player leaves millions on the table because I said so", the Knicks aren't going to get a veteran rim protector for as cheap as some people here think they will get one. Getting a Robin Lopez type will cost north of 10-12 million a year. Even an Ajinca type isn't going to come here for that Briggs-ian price of a few year and a few million.

How can you say you care about defense when your solution is to keep spending to the point where the Knicks have no money for depth and/or wing players ( perimeter defense matters as well) to help said defense and your scenario puts Melo back on the wing. An aging player, not known for his conditioning prowess, known as a bad defender, coming back from injury, then being asked to chase around younger, faster wing players. How is that helping the defense?

Do you realize your "solution" to helping the Knicks defense is to

1) Hope to win the draft lottery, and if so, place the burden of the ENTIRE DEFENSE ON A ROOKIES BACK.
2) Sign for max dollars, a poor defender in Monroe
3) If not No#1, keep SPENDING MORE MONEY ON THE FRONTLINE
4) Put Melo out to defend wings
5) Keep spending to the point where you have no more money to help roster depth and get wing players ( you know, "another aspect of defense"), who can actually help defend on the perimeter. Because the idea of Melo, Calderon, Hardaway Jr and Schved is so enticing out there on defense.

How can you push that happy horse **** above and say you care about the Knick's defense?

Phil Jackson doesn't need to build a weak defensive team, you did the work for him.

Stop putting words in my mouth. Just cuz i'm making a case for the possibility of signing Monroe doesn't mean that he's the only option I see in order to build this team. I have various threads where I've shown multiple options for how this team could be reconstructed. I'm just saying that Monroe is going to be an option and he would be a worthy player.

nixluva wrote:We have to think about what players are actually available to us. We do need more 3pt shooting to be sure, but they have to be 3 and D types who can guard the perimeter effectively or it won't work. Make no mistake i'm not looking to build a BIG SLOW TEAM. We need bigs that can also move and have range defensively. This will help defensively when they get caught on a smalls they at least would have a chance to defend. This is why a kid like Draymond Green is so special. He allows them to defend at a high level on the perimeter and of course he's not the only one on GS like that. In general they don't have big slow guys on their roster. If the Knicks had a kid like Cauley-Stein that would help a lot. That in combination with better defense from our SF and SG would really make a huge difference. Obviously with Melo on the team you will have issues defensively during his minutes so you need to make sure you have guys on the floor with him that can defend with range. We simply can't put lineups on the floor with multiple bad defenders and expect to win.

I think in terms of the draft i'd go after Towns. I think he would help to form a core that can defend the way we need and also be effective in the half court offensively. With Towns he may not be dominant offensively right out of the box, but I know he can defend at a high level right off the bat.

Obviously i'd LOVE to get a kid like Butler. Again he'd enhance the teams defense greatly. Overpaying for him would be worth ever penny IMO. If we couldn't get Butler then you have to keep going down the line with guards like Matthews or Danny Green. The point is that the starting lineup has to be formed in such a way that you have a solid roster defensively and one that makes sense offensively. IF we can chase shooters off the 3pt line and force them into our shot blocking bigs that could really have an impact against teams that want to play this spread offensive style. It's just my theory of one direction we could go in.

nixluva wrote:The list shows the players with the highest Estimated Wins Added. So IMO these players are worth going after as they would actually stand the best chance of improving the ability of the Knicks to win. I don't think it would make sense to spend good money on players who are less likely to contribute to adding wins to this roster. Even more so I think the younger vets who are under 6 years in the NBA provide the best overall value. They have a lower max and more years of service to offer.

If we can catch a break and draft OK4, Towns, Russell or Mudiay that would be a huge boost to the off season efforts to remake the roster. Phil needs to go after the best players at the best price and then fill in the roster from there with quality players. IMO at least 2 of the players on this list would make a huge improvement to the roster. There are of course other players lower on the list that would be good additions.

Hollinger Stats - Estimated Wins Added
RK	PLAYER	                GP	MPG	TS%	AST	TO	USG	ORR	DRR	REBR	PER	VA	EWA
2	Jimmy Butler, CHI	55	38.9	.582	14.7	6.7	20.6	5.1	11.3	8.3	21.30	345.1	11.5
8	Goran Dragic, MIA/PHX	62	33.3	.578	20.5	10.7	21.6	3.3	8.4	5.9	17.31	209.9	7.0
9	Wesley Matthews, POR	60	33.7	.586	13.4	7.8	18.6	2.1	9.5	5.9	16.14	170.5	5.7
        Danny Green, SA	        63	29.4	.590	13.7	9.0	16.3	2.9	14.4	8.7	16.53	166.6	5.6
13	Khris Middleton, MIL	63	29.0	.573	14.2	8.9	18.3	2.4	15.1	8.9	16.35	159.5	5.3

RK	PLAYER	                GP	MPG	TS%	AST	TO	USG	ORR	DRR	REBR	PER	VA	EWA
3       LaMarcus Aldridge, POR	56	36.0	.521	6.7	7.1	27.4	8.0	22.8	15.6	22.13	319.9	10.7
6	Greg Monroe, DET	64	31.1	.548	10.8	11.9	22.7	11.2	25.7	18.1	21.13	286.2	9.5
8	Paul Millsap, ATL	63	33.1	.566	14.7	11.7	22.1	6.7	20.1	13.6	19.90	261.6	8.7
9	Kevin Love, CLE	        64	34.4	.560	12.3	8.2	20.5	6.6	26.7	16.8	19.34	257.6	8.6
RK	PLAYER	                GP	MPG	TS%	AST	TO	USG	ORR	DRR	REBR	PER	VA	EWA
25      Omer Asik, NO	        61	26.1	.550	10.1	14.6	12.8	13.7	29.5	21.6	15.48	116.1	3.9
27	Alexis Ajinca, NO	51	14.0	.623	8.9	13.9	19.4	12.6	25.5	19.1	21.24	113.5	3.8
28	Robin Lopez, POR	40	28.4	.566	9.1	11.3	14.6	13.1	13.3	13.2	16.63	102.1	3.4
Other players to be considered:
RK	PLAYER	                GP	MPG	TS%	AST	TO	USG	ORR	DRR	REBR	PER	VA	EWA
76	Tristan Thompson, CLE	68	27.6	.581	5.2	11.4	12.9	15.0	18.3	16.7	15.81	146.0	4.9
96	DeMarre Carroll, ATL	57	30.8	.594	12.2	7.4	14.7	5.1	13.1	9.3	14.97	117.0	3.9
        Jeremy Lin, LAL	        64	25.7	.544	27.7	13.1	21.4	1.3	10.1	5.5	15.75	116.3	3.9
107	Brandon Bass, BOS	65	23.0	.543	10.6	8.5	18.6	7.7	15.4	11.5	16.19	104.7	3.5
118     Amir Johnson, TOR	63	26.5	.603	13.5	13.5	14.7	9.2	16.3	12.7	15.34	95.8	3.2
126     Patrick Patterson, TOR	65	26.4	.573	18.7	6.4	12.7	7.2	16.5	11.8	15.01	89.8	3.0
129     Cory Joseph, SA	        62	20.2	.570	25.2	9.1	16.8	3.5	10.4	7.0	15.62	86.3	2.9
165	Lavoy Allen, IND	48	19.5	.513	16.8	8.6	14.3	13.0	20.4	16.8	16.02	63.2	2.1
188	Jonas Jerebko, BOS/DET	58	15.7	.575	14.8	8.9	15.3	7.2	15.3	11.1	14.97	47.2	1.6

On our current roster we have very few players who are above Zero EWA at this time in their career. It's no wonder we can't win games.

RK	PLAYER	                GP	MPG	TS%	AST	TO	USG	ORR	DRR	REBR	PER	VA	EWA
37	Carmelo Anthony, NY	40	35.7	.531	10.9	7.9	30.0	5.6	16.0	10.7	21.77	240.2	8.0
136	Alexey Shved, HOU/NY/PHI38	16.7	.539	19.1	8.5	22.9	0.0	0.0	0.0	19.54	81.1	2.7
148	Cole Aldrich, NY	48	16.1	.495	15.4	12.8	16.8	11.9	26.9	19.1	16.81	71.6	2.4
201	Andrea Bargnani, NY	17	25.9	.534	10.2	8.3	24.1	4.6	13.5	8.9	16.88	41.2	1.4
205	Tim Hardaway Jr., NY	63	23.5	.509	12.5	7.8	22.3	0.8	10.4	5.5	12.26	38.9	1.3
233	Langston Galloway, NY	29	30.0	.492	19.7	8.0	18.0	3.7	13.2	8.3	12.48	19.2	0.6
251	Quincy Acy, NY	        53	19.1	.524	13.6	12.8	13.9	7.3	20.4	13.6	11.10	9.1	0.3
        Jose Calderon, NY	42	30.2	.519	30.9	11.7	16.5	1.7	9.9	5.6	11.44	8.3	0.3
262	Jason Smith, NY	        66	21.2	.493	15.2	10.8	18.5	6.5	14.3	10.3	11.76	5.4	0.2

Stop trying to make me and others sound unreasonable when you don't actual present a viable alternative. All you do is kick dirt on other peoples posts which is easy to do, but where is your set of scenarios for how to revamp the team?

Also, I think because it was only a partial quote of what you wrote, the defense stuff was left out. If you get Towns or Winslow you are addressing defense and in an inexpensive fashion and it allows you to focus in on the frontline. Towns/Monroe would be a nice front line.

We all agree that Defense is important. This is the main reason i've been touting Towns in the draft. All we've been talking about are 2 way players. I love Winslow.

CrushAlot wrote:

nixluva wrote:

TripleThreat wrote:

nixluva wrote: So save us the crap about us not caring about defense. However, if they can't draft Towns, there are centers Phil could get in Free Agency who are good rim protectors. It's also important to have a functioning offense. Rim protection is only one aspect of defense. Phil is looking for more players who can provide defense on the perimeter as well. He's not trying to build a weak defensive team.

So your solution is what I said before, TO SPEND EVEN MORE MONEY ON THE FRONTLINE. This after giving Melo, a bad defender, a massive contract. Then again after what you propose is signing Monroe, who is going to want max dollars. Melo already chews up 40 percent of the cap. Then you add in Calderon's ugly contract that is pretty much immovable at this point. Add in a max deal for Monroe ( are we going to pretend he's coming to NY at a massive discount?) Then SPEND MORE on a rim protecting center? And unlike the Briggs-ian "It's ok to conjure up a rape contract scenario where a player leaves millions on the table because I said so", the Knicks aren't going to get a veteran rim protector for as cheap as some people here think they will get one. Getting a Robin Lopez type will cost north of 10-12 million a year. Even an Ajinca type isn't going to come here for that Briggs-ian price of a few year and a few million.

How can you say you care about defense when your solution is to keep spending to the point where the Knicks have no money for depth and/or wing players ( perimeter defense matters as well) to help said defense and your scenario puts Melo back on the wing. An aging player, not known for his conditioning prowess, known as a bad defender, coming back from injury, then being asked to chase around younger, faster wing players. How is that helping the defense?

Do you realize your "solution" to helping the Knicks defense is to

1) Hope to win the draft lottery, and if so, place the burden of the ENTIRE DEFENSE ON A ROOKIES BACK.
2) Sign for max dollars, a poor defender in Monroe
3) If not No#1, keep SPENDING MORE MONEY ON THE FRONTLINE
4) Put Melo out to defend wings
5) Keep spending to the point where you have no more money to help roster depth and get wing players ( you know, "another aspect of defense"), who can actually help defend on the perimeter. Because the idea of Melo, Calderon, Hardaway Jr and Schved is so enticing out there on defense.

How can you push that happy horse **** above and say you care about the Knick's defense?

Phil Jackson doesn't need to build a weak defensive team, you did the work for him.

Stop putting words in my mouth. Just cuz i'm making a case for the possibility of signing Monroe doesn't mean that he's the only option I see in order to build this team. I have various threads where I've shown multiple options for how this team could be reconstructed. I'm just saying that Monroe is going to be an option and he would be a worthy player.

nixluva wrote:We have to think about what players are actually available to us. We do need more 3pt shooting to be sure, but they have to be 3 and D types who can guard the perimeter effectively or it won't work. Make no mistake i'm not looking to build a BIG SLOW TEAM. We need bigs that can also move and have range defensively. This will help defensively when they get caught on a smalls they at least would have a chance to defend. This is why a kid like Draymond Green is so special. He allows them to defend at a high level on the perimeter and of course he's not the only one on GS like that. In general they don't have big slow guys on their roster. If the Knicks had a kid like Cauley-Stein that would help a lot. That in combination with better defense from our SF and SG would really make a huge difference. Obviously with Melo on the team you will have issues defensively during his minutes so you need to make sure you have guys on the floor with him that can defend with range. We simply can't put lineups on the floor with multiple bad defenders and expect to win.

I think in terms of the draft i'd go after Towns. I think he would help to form a core that can defend the way we need and also be effective in the half court offensively. With Towns he may not be dominant offensively right out of the box, but I know he can defend at a high level right off the bat.

Obviously i'd LOVE to get a kid like Butler. Again he'd enhance the teams defense greatly. Overpaying for him would be worth ever penny IMO. If we couldn't get Butler then you have to keep going down the line with guards like Matthews or Danny Green. The point is that the starting lineup has to be formed in such a way that you have a solid roster defensively and one that makes sense offensively. IF we can chase shooters off the 3pt line and force them into our shot blocking bigs that could really have an impact against teams that want to play this spread offensive style. It's just my theory of one direction we could go in.

nixluva wrote:The list shows the players with the highest Estimated Wins Added. So IMO these players are worth going after as they would actually stand the best chance of improving the ability of the Knicks to win. I don't think it would make sense to spend good money on players who are less likely to contribute to adding wins to this roster. Even more so I think the younger vets who are under 6 years in the NBA provide the best overall value. They have a lower max and more years of service to offer.

If we can catch a break and draft OK4, Towns, Russell or Mudiay that would be a huge boost to the off season efforts to remake the roster. Phil needs to go after the best players at the best price and then fill in the roster from there with quality players. IMO at least 2 of the players on this list would make a huge improvement to the roster. There are of course other players lower on the list that would be good additions.

Hollinger Stats - Estimated Wins Added
RK	PLAYER	                GP	MPG	TS%	AST	TO	USG	ORR	DRR	REBR	PER	VA	EWA
2	Jimmy Butler, CHI	55	38.9	.582	14.7	6.7	20.6	5.1	11.3	8.3	21.30	345.1	11.5
8	Goran Dragic, MIA/PHX	62	33.3	.578	20.5	10.7	21.6	3.3	8.4	5.9	17.31	209.9	7.0
9	Wesley Matthews, POR	60	33.7	.586	13.4	7.8	18.6	2.1	9.5	5.9	16.14	170.5	5.7
        Danny Green, SA	        63	29.4	.590	13.7	9.0	16.3	2.9	14.4	8.7	16.53	166.6	5.6
13	Khris Middleton, MIL	63	29.0	.573	14.2	8.9	18.3	2.4	15.1	8.9	16.35	159.5	5.3

RK	PLAYER	                GP	MPG	TS%	AST	TO	USG	ORR	DRR	REBR	PER	VA	EWA
3       LaMarcus Aldridge, POR	56	36.0	.521	6.7	7.1	27.4	8.0	22.8	15.6	22.13	319.9	10.7
6	Greg Monroe, DET	64	31.1	.548	10.8	11.9	22.7	11.2	25.7	18.1	21.13	286.2	9.5
8	Paul Millsap, ATL	63	33.1	.566	14.7	11.7	22.1	6.7	20.1	13.6	19.90	261.6	8.7
9	Kevin Love, CLE	        64	34.4	.560	12.3	8.2	20.5	6.6	26.7	16.8	19.34	257.6	8.6
RK	PLAYER	                GP	MPG	TS%	AST	TO	USG	ORR	DRR	REBR	PER	VA	EWA
25      Omer Asik, NO	        61	26.1	.550	10.1	14.6	12.8	13.7	29.5	21.6	15.48	116.1	3.9
27	Alexis Ajinca, NO	51	14.0	.623	8.9	13.9	19.4	12.6	25.5	19.1	21.24	113.5	3.8
28	Robin Lopez, POR	40	28.4	.566	9.1	11.3	14.6	13.1	13.3	13.2	16.63	102.1	3.4
Other players to be considered:
RK	PLAYER	                GP	MPG	TS%	AST	TO	USG	ORR	DRR	REBR	PER	VA	EWA
76	Tristan Thompson, CLE	68	27.6	.581	5.2	11.4	12.9	15.0	18.3	16.7	15.81	146.0	4.9
96	DeMarre Carroll, ATL	57	30.8	.594	12.2	7.4	14.7	5.1	13.1	9.3	14.97	117.0	3.9
        Jeremy Lin, LAL	        64	25.7	.544	27.7	13.1	21.4	1.3	10.1	5.5	15.75	116.3	3.9
107	Brandon Bass, BOS	65	23.0	.543	10.6	8.5	18.6	7.7	15.4	11.5	16.19	104.7	3.5
118     Amir Johnson, TOR	63	26.5	.603	13.5	13.5	14.7	9.2	16.3	12.7	15.34	95.8	3.2
126     Patrick Patterson, TOR	65	26.4	.573	18.7	6.4	12.7	7.2	16.5	11.8	15.01	89.8	3.0
129     Cory Joseph, SA	        62	20.2	.570	25.2	9.1	16.8	3.5	10.4	7.0	15.62	86.3	2.9
165	Lavoy Allen, IND	48	19.5	.513	16.8	8.6	14.3	13.0	20.4	16.8	16.02	63.2	2.1
188	Jonas Jerebko, BOS/DET	58	15.7	.575	14.8	8.9	15.3	7.2	15.3	11.1	14.97	47.2	1.6

On our current roster we have very few players who are above Zero EWA at this time in their career. It's no wonder we can't win games.

RK	PLAYER	                GP	MPG	TS%	AST	TO	USG	ORR	DRR	REBR	PER	VA	EWA
37	Carmelo Anthony, NY	40	35.7	.531	10.9	7.9	30.0	5.6	16.0	10.7	21.77	240.2	8.0
136	Alexey Shved, HOU/NY/PHI38	16.7	.539	19.1	8.5	22.9	0.0	0.0	0.0	19.54	81.1	2.7
148	Cole Aldrich, NY	48	16.1	.495	15.4	12.8	16.8	11.9	26.9	19.1	16.81	71.6	2.4
201	Andrea Bargnani, NY	17	25.9	.534	10.2	8.3	24.1	4.6	13.5	8.9	16.88	41.2	1.4
205	Tim Hardaway Jr., NY	63	23.5	.509	12.5	7.8	22.3	0.8	10.4	5.5	12.26	38.9	1.3
233	Langston Galloway, NY	29	30.0	.492	19.7	8.0	18.0	3.7	13.2	8.3	12.48	19.2	0.6
251	Quincy Acy, NY	        53	19.1	.524	13.6	12.8	13.9	7.3	20.4	13.6	11.10	9.1	0.3
        Jose Calderon, NY	42	30.2	.519	30.9	11.7	16.5	1.7	9.9	5.6	11.44	8.3	0.3
262	Jason Smith, NY	        66	21.2	.493	15.2	10.8	18.5	6.5	14.3	10.3	11.76	5.4	0.2

Stop trying to make me and others sound unreasonable when you don't actual present a viable alternative. All you do is kick dirt on other peoples posts which is easy to do, but where is your set of scenarios for how to revamp the team?

Also, I think because it was only a partial quote of what you wrote, the defense stuff was left out. If you get Towns or Winslow you are addressing defense and in an inexpensive fashion and it allows you to focus in on the frontline. Towns/Monroe would be a nice front line.

We all agree that Defense is important. This is the main reason i've been touting Towns in the draft. All we've been talking about are 2 way players. I love Winslow.

gunsnewing wrote:Can you back it up with stats. Nix posted his win shares and they suggest that he is better defensively than people think

codeunknown wrote:The guy the Knicks should attempt to get is Deandre Jordan. In addition to any of the top 4 draft options, it would be a strong off season.

Don't a fit for the triangle and will command a King's ransom for a player that is not a fit. The Knicks will be left with gaping holes

gunsnewing wrote:

codeunknown wrote:The guy the Knicks should attempt to get is Deandre Jordan. In addition to any of the top 4 draft options, it would be a strong off season.

Don't a fit for the triangle and will command a King's ransom

Id like to get guy like Leonard Jordan etc.. to the problem is there is absolutely 0/100000000000000000000000000000 chance they are coming here.

codeunknown wrote:The guy the Knicks should attempt to get is Deandre Jordan. In addition to any of the top 4 draft options, it would be a strong off season.

I would much rather see that. I'd gladly Deandre's 12 PPG since it comes with a million times better defense. He'd bring back what we lost in the Tyson trade and even more.

Bonn1997 wrote:

codeunknown wrote:The guy the Knicks should attempt to get is Deandre Jordan. In addition to any of the top 4 draft options, it would be a strong off season.

I would much rather see that. I'd gladly Deandre's 12 PPG since it comes with a million times better defense. He'd bring back what we lost in the Tyson trade and even more.