dk7th wrote:carmelo anthony usage rate for his career is 32% and his assist rate is 15.8%
andy bargnani usage rate for his career is 27% lately and his assist rate is around 8%

what this means is not many assists get generated when this sort of player is on the floor. putting them together on the floor will compound the issue unless either or both all of a sudden become playmakers.

alas, this is not likely to happen.

This team is going to have to rely on basic BB plays to create scoring and if they're doing those basic things they won't have to worry about Melo or AB being play makers. Here's an example of the kind of plays that the Knicks can run that will be even more effective this year with the addition of Bargnani. It's all about Ball and Player Movement.

dk7th wrote:then there is the issue of defense when both are on the floor along with that defensive stalwart ray felton.

you and woodson are in for a rude awakening if woodson starts melo and andy together.

No one is expecting great defense out of these guys, but I do think AB can hold down the PF spot and his added length will help near the basket next to Tyson. IMO no matter where we put Melo he's not going to be a great defender but we have to continue to get the team defense to a decent level. Let's be honest tho, this team is really about the offense. It's the old MDA method. Great offense and just enough on D. That's the only way it's gonna work. The team does have enough good defenders that they can put a great defensive unit on the floor when they need to. But this is an offensive team at it's core.

dk7th wrote:your position seems to be to assemble as much "talent" as possible and hope the coach can figure things out. we got away with an assemblage of "talent" last regular season-- sheed and kidd were great for the knicks while they lasted-- but the knicks were rudely awakened by the celtics before being punished by the pacers.

why were they punished: because they were a predictable fool's gold team, not really a team at all. defensively suspect all season, and the coach could not get the ball moving properly. lots of standing around.

but bargnani and udrih are going to change all that, right?

azamatbagatov wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:I doubt it.

Do you have anything to back that up besides opinion? I see usage rate & assist rate were used to support the other side of the argument.

what argument, that Melo and Bargs individually have low assist rates? What are the AR% for pfs and 3s? Is the AR lower/higher for the team when one is off the floor. Why not stick with career usg and AR for both players instead of cherry picking Bargs? why do this surely 24 % and 27 % doesn't matter. Will Bargs be in the same role in NY as he was in TO? If he takes the minutes Novak and Cope got, two players with lower ARs and Reb% will the knicks get more assists and rebounds? Will Carmelo treat Bargs like Amar'e and assist on more of his baskets than the other teammates. How does all of the usg and assist rates affect offensive efficiency?

Will the Knicks rank 4th in defensive rebounding % and 19th offensively again?

IDK how the team will react with Bargs. Maybe like other talented players who assumes a different role on a better team makes him into a better player. Maybe not I'll let you know next summer.

nixluva wrote:Gotta hope things keep working out for the Knicks and Bargnani. So far so good even tho it's early.

Carmelo Anthony privately pined for a secondary scorer in the offseason. And so far, after the first practice of training camp, Anthony is talking like he has got one in the Knicks’ key offseason acquisition, Andrea Bargnani.

Anthony even said he would be willing to slide over from power forward to small forward to make room in the starting lineup for the 6-foot-11 Italian.

Anthony also tried taking the pressure off Bargnani, who became the scapegoat in Toronto after failing to become an All-Star after being No. 1 overall pick in 2006.

“There ain’t no pressure on him,” Anthony said of Bargnani handling the move to New York. “You come in and do what you got to do and play ball. All the pressure’s on me. It should be easy for him. It should be an easy transition for him, adjusting. Just do it the right way, it should be easy for him.’’

Bargnani played just 66 of a possible 152 regular-season games the past two seasons for the Raptors, because of various injuries, prompting the June 29 trade.

Bargnani said no matter what Anthony says, there always is pressure as a Knick.

“New York is a different situation than Toronto,’’ Bargnani said. “The pressure is on him, of course, but it’s on the team because there’s a lot of expectation on the team.’’

During yesterday’s halfcourt sets, Bargnani wore the starting blue jersey with Anthony, Tyson Chandler up front, and Metta World Peace wore white.

Coach Mike Woodson said his starting lineup hasn’t been determined, but a frontcourt of Chandler-Bargnani-Anthony is a distinct possibility. The Knicks coach hinted at Bargnani’s familiarity with that role.

“We’ll use camp to evaluate to see where we are,’’ Woodson said. “He’s been a starter pretty much all his career, but time will tell. I’m going to have some options this year.’’

Starting Bargnani means Anthony would have to return to small forward. Having World Peace start would allow Anthony to stay at the 4. But it should be noted Toronto insiders say Bargnani always performed well against Indiana’s David West and Miami’s Chris Bosh — likely the East’s two most formidable teams.

Anthony said he is comfortable at either position.

“Playing the 3, 4, it’s all the same. I’m cool with it,” he said. “It’s up to Coach Woodson. It’s early right now to pick a starting lineup. By the end of the week, we’ll start figuring things out.

“I’m looking forward to getting up and down the court with Bargnani. I know his capabilities. For me, it helps me a lot now to have another stretch 4 who can stretch the floor, shoot and create of the dribble. It’s another weapon we have.’’

The Knicks were desperate to trade for Bargnani and worked on the deal all of June, according to a source. They already were plotting a strict minutes restriction on Amar’e Stoudemire because of his knees. Woodson said Tuesday he expects Stoudemire to play fewer than 25 minutes a game when ready.

Bargnani, who had pneumonia in early August that forced his withdrawal from Team Italy’s training camp before the European Championships, said he felt good after his first Knicks practice and doesn’t think it will take long to get into game shape.

“My lungs are OK,’’ Bargnani said. “It’s a matter of getting in shape. I had to stay one month still. It won’t take long. I feel pretty good about it.’’

Woodson raved in July about the prospect of Bargnani entering camp off the European event, and he hasn’t lost his enthusiasm for the trade. Woodson’s biggest challenge is teaching him the team’s defensive rotations.

“I don’t think you can pass up on a piece like Bargnani,’’ Woodson said. “He’s one of those gifted players I think I can reach. I’ve watched him from afar for many years. I just think he’s a talented, young player who can do a number of things. I just got to get him acclimated to what we’re doing and feeling good about himself again because he can really help this ballclub.’’

The Knicks have two trips to Toronto in the preseason, including Oct. 11. Bargnani was booed heavily last season, leading to the Raptors shipping him out for Steve Novak and draft picks.

“It will be weird for me,’’ Bargnani said. “I’d been there seven years — a lot of time. It will be weird feeling coming into the gym with another jersey.’’

http://nypost.com/2013/10/01/carmelo-dont-worry-bargnani-all-the-pressures-on-me/

OK, so everybody needs to take a deep breath. Before we start to panic at the thought of Melo at the 3, Bargnani at 4, and dogs and cats living together, we really need to settle down and take stock of the situation. First, the starting lineup that dominated the end of the regular season last year is still completely intact, so there's no reason for Bargnani to jump in there from the opening tip. Second, just as Mike Woodson pointed out yesterday, the 3 and 4 spots are often interchangeable in today's game. Melo might not be Lebron (who is?) but he can defend either forward position, which gives Woodson some leeway on who he plays at that other forward spot. And finally, Andrea Bargnani is not the first tall, defensively-challenged forward Melo has had to share the floor with...not by a long shot.

Let's start with Steve Novak. People like to underplay the Money Badger's impact on last year's team, but Novak played 1641 minutes in 2012-13, the sixth-most minutes of any Knick. And of those 1641, Novak played 610.8 of them alongside Carmelo Anthony. So how did Melo fare in those 600-odd minutes playing alongside a lanky defensive sieve like Novak? Pretty damn well, as it turns out:

   
                              Net points              Net opp. points         Net
                G   MP        per 100 possessions     per 100 possessions     difference	
Anthony / Novak 65  610.8     118.2 	               110.0 	              +8.2

That +8.2-point differential is the second-highest of any Melo pairing of at least 300 minutes -- No. 1 is, of course, Pablo Prigioni. No, the Melo-Novak pairing didn't stop anyone on the defensive end -- a 110.0 opponent DRtg would have been fourth-worst in the NBA -- but they more than made up for it with a staggering 118.2 ORtg, which would have led the NBA by nearly six points. And Melo played even better when paired with another tall glass of no-D, Chris Copeland (Novak and Copeland had the two worst defensive ratings on the Knicks last year).

                                 Net points              Net opp. points          Net
                     G   MP      per 100 possessions     per 100 possessions      difference
Anthony / Copeland   25  215.1 	  111.1 	         101.5 	                  +9.6

If we broaden our search a bit to include the Melo-Tyson Chandler pairing, we find something very interesting. I've included two of last year's more popular small-ball lineups, with Iman Shumpert and Ronnie Brewer acting as the small forward. I've also included three of the larger frontcourts, with the defensively-challenged Novak, Copeland and Amar'e Stoudemire. Let's see who comes out on top.

                                                                        Net (Per 100 
	                                                                Possessions)
Rk                Lineup ▴ 	            Tm 	Season 	   G 	MP 	| PTS
2  C. Anthony | R. Brewer   | T. Chandler   NYK 2012-13    30 	404.4 	| +4.4
24 C. Anthony | T. Chandler | C. Copeland   NYK 2012-13    8 	76.9 	| +11.3
28 C. Anthony | T. Chandler | S. Novak 	    NYK 2012-13    47 	279.8 	| +13.4
30 C. Anthony | T. Chandler | I. Shumpert   NYK 2012-13    26 	365.0 	| -8.1
32 C. Anthony | T. Chandler | A. Stoudemire NYK 2012-13    26 	223.0 	| +9.1
Provided by Basketball-Reference.com: View Original Table Generated 10/2/2013.

Holy guacamole! Even the much-maligned Melo/Tyson/Amar'e frontcourt looks pretty darned effective. And, just as with Novak, the overall effectiveness came purely from the offensive side of the court. The Melo/Tyson/Amar'e trio gave up 109.8 points per 100 possessions, but scored 118.9 -- not exactly the strong defensive frontcourt one might hope for, but effective nonetheless. Of course, Amar'e brings a totally different offensive game from Novak and Copeland, but the results were still excellent.

Now does this mean Melo should move back to the 3? Absolutely not! I mean, was Melo playing the 3 or the 4 when paired with Novak? Who even cares? What it really means is that this whole "3 or 4" argument is rather silly: as long as you pair the greatness of Melo with a real center, you can go any number of ways with that other forward spot.

And as for Bargnani, the question isn't whether or not he can play with Melo, it's whether or not he can play at all. He hasn't shot the three nearly as well as Novak these past few years, but he has shot over 40% in the past. If he can recapture a bit of that magic-- through better health, a more suitable role, or just HOPLA-- he'll provide some of the floor-spacing that helped Novak and Copeland pair with Melo so effectively. Bargnani has also shown the same ability to get to the foul line (6.0 free throw attempts per 36 minutes in 2011-12) that Amar'e used so well last season when paired with Melo and Tyson. Neither of these skills were apparent in Bargnani's game last season, but if the Knicks can coax a return to form from the big Italian, then he'll mesh just fine with Melo...as did Novak, as did Copeland, as did Amar'e.

http://www.postingandtoasting.com/2013/10/3/4796476/knicks-analysis-andrea-bargnani-carmelo-anthony-forward

Bonn1997 wrote:You're comparing the rebound rate of a PF/C to an SF? Let's not forget that if he was a PG, Bargs would be a pretty solid rebounder!

Who played SF? Novak or Copeland? Does it really matter because they both guarded PFs or Cs in copeland case. They also played more of their minutes as a PF. If it makes you feel better when Bargs play with Melo you can call him a SF.

callmened wrote:looks like theres a good chance of Bargnani starting at PF next to Melo at the 3. as you know i had my concerns, not at the offensive side but with his overall EFFORT (whether thats defense or rebounding). I hope he plays well and KEEPS that spot

Have you ever been stuck at a bad job? It has a way of taking the joy out of your work and even if you don't mean to your effort level may slip. I think part of the issue with AB is that being on a losing team and then having some health issues wore him down. I don't think he'll have effort or enthusiasm issues here in NY. It's a totally different situation here. The goal from day one here is different than in Toronto where they knew they didn't have a great team.

Woody is gonna be there to get in his ear if Bargnani isn't doing the right things and playing hard. Also AB's teammates will get on him if he's not pulling his weight. I think it's much easier to stay pumped when you have pumped players around you. The level of talent here is WAY beyond what he had in Toronto. This team believes they can win a championship!!! He never had that in Toronto.
He's coming into a team that is already a winning team. Whether he plays or not the team is good enough to win games. He can really relax and just have fun.

callmened wrote:no i get it. Thats what I'm hoping for. I mean i hope you see where Im coming from. I dont think im crazy. Each time i saw him play he seemed soft and disinterested. When i used to watch him, I used to think what a waste of talent

Felton has played his best BB in NY. He may have been in some situations that didn't really maximize his talent. Then other times he may not have been motivated as much as he is here to be his best. Mentally it's easy to tell yourself that you're giving your all when you really aren't. Others may see it, while you don't get what they're talking about. Woody had his issues with Cope and it was probably the same thing. Cope thought he was going hard and Woody is seeing that he really doesn't know what that means.

Perhaps being around hard workers like we have on this team it will rub off on AB and he'll adjust his effort level to match what the rest of the team is doing. That's the hope. I know that's what Woody is thinking too.

StarksEwing1 wrote:

nixluva wrote:

callmened wrote:looks like theres a good chance of Bargnani starting at PF next to Melo at the 3. as you know i had my concerns, not at the offensive side but with his overall EFFORT (whether thats defense or rebounding). I hope he plays well and KEEPS that spot

Have you ever been stuck at a bad job? It has a way of taking the joy out of your work and even if you don't mean to your effort level may slip. I think part of the issue with AB is that being on a losing team and then having some health issues wore him down. I don't think he'll have effort or enthusiasm issues here in NY. It's a totally different situation here. The goal from day one here is different than in Toronto where they knew they didn't have a great team.

Woody is gonna be there to get in his ear if Bargnani isn't doing the right things and playing hard. Also AB's teammates will get on him if he's not pulling his weight. I think it's much easier to stay pumped when you have pumped players around you. The level of talent here is WAY beyond what he had in Toronto. This team believes they can win a championship!!! He never had that in Toronto.
He's coming into a team that is already a winning team. Whether he plays or not the team is good enough to win games. He can really relax and just have fun.

When it coms to bargnani the talent is there but like callmened pointed out fairly is that Bargs has to keep the effort high at all times. I dont care if he was in toronto that is an excuse. I know you realy like Bargnnai but he still has to prove it. Dont worry if Bargnani plays hard and delivers he will get the fan love you wnat him to get

There's no need to get cute about it. I don't have some unreasonable obsession with Bargnani. I just happen to see how he can help this team and clearly so did the Knicks. I'm glad Woody feels he can get thru to Bargnani and that he can get him back to his real level of play. IMO it's not like we're asking Bargnani to do something he can't do when healthy. When he's been healthy he can score and all that remains is for Woody he get him to also defend and rebound at a higher level. If the coaches can teach him better defensive technique and concepts of team D, that could help him hold his position down. Rebounding is about effort and focus on going after the ball. Again I hope Woody will be successful in holding him accountable to hitting the boards.

People are acting like Bargnani is far removed from being able to score the ball,which is the main thing we brought him in for. Well he's not!!!

2009 - 15.4/5.3
2010 - 17.2/6.2
2011 - 21.4/5.2
2012 - 19.5/5.5
2013 - 12.7/3.7 - This is the year that has everyone so crazy but they forget WHY he played so poorly. HE WAS HURT!!! I don't understand why it's so hard for some to see why i've been positive about his ability to help this team.