nixluva wrote:Who said that shots near the rim are all gimmies? This is just some hater-aid from Knickscity! I mean come on man you'd have to go back and check every single shot AB took near the rim to try and suggest that he's somehow not converting gimmies. No one is gonna believe you since we've all seen the guy play and we know he can shoot and finish around the rim.
The real point is that this is a 7'er than can do a lot of good things when you use him inside 20 feet. If we had him last year it would've helped a lot.

We needed more scoring options to make the offense more diversified. Bargnani helps to make the offense more versatile and potent. It's up to Woody to help maximize AB's talent and get the most out of the talent on this team. It's not rocket science to make sure you get a 7'er more catches in the post and more PnP plays.

but the numbers are there...he doesnt hit rim shots with efficiency, and it's likely the same reason he doesnt rebound...too lazy to finish the play.

knickscity wrote:

nixluva wrote:Who said that shots near the rim are all gimmies? This is just some hater-aid from Knickscity! I mean come on man you'd have to go back and check every single shot AB took near the rim to try and suggest that he's somehow not converting gimmies. No one is gonna believe you since we've all seen the guy play and we know he can shoot and finish around the rim.
The real point is that this is a 7'er than can do a lot of good things when you use him inside 20 feet. If we had him last year it would've helped a lot.

We needed more scoring options to make the offense more diversified. Bargnani helps to make the offense more versatile and potent. It's up to Woody to help maximize AB's talent and get the most out of the talent on this team. It's not rocket science to make sure you get a 7'er more catches in the post and more PnP plays.

i actually gave credit to his mid range game in the same post, but of course you're too focus on my criticism to see i actually gave him some credit.

but the numbers are there...he doesnt hit rim shots with efficiency, and it's likely the same reason he doesnt rebound...too lazy to finish the play.

The point is that AB can score in a myriad of ways and so you can run a very versatile offense with him in the mix. That's the most important factor. We needed a player who can be a primary scoring option and has a game that will mesh with Melo's game, Tyson and Amar'e. AB can play with everyone on this team and be effective because he's not limited in any way. The big complaint from some is that AB is inefficient but really when you look at the numbers he has aspects of his game that can help this team. All you need is to emphasize his strengths and minimize the low percentage 3pt shots.

yellowboy90 wrote:

knickscity wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:I guess this guy sucks too. I am not comparing the two but just isolating rim FG%

http://www.hoopdata.com/player.aspx?name=Roy%20Hibbert

This is his at rim FG% from basketball-reference.

08/09-------.512

09/10-------.609

10/11-------.651

11/12-------.575

12/13-------.552

Those numbers are bad.

Well that's the great Roy Hibbert but have you tried comparing Bargs to other stretch 4s. It would be better to compare him to guys like Love, Anderson, Patterson, and whoever else. The key to Bargs is getting him up to a 57 TS% player. HE needs to up his rebounding a little too but if he starts he will be surrounded by players who can rebound well for their position.

he'll be lucky to reach 54-55%TS... which is close to average. melo will have company in that range (his career average is 54.5%), trailed by both felton and smith who are usually around 48-50%TS.

ladies and gentlemen your new york knicks!

lets not think about defense and rebounding-- after all who cares what the other team does?

nixluva wrote:

knickscity wrote:

nixluva wrote:Who said that shots near the rim are all gimmies? This is just some hater-aid from Knickscity! I mean come on man you'd have to go back and check every single shot AB took near the rim to try and suggest that he's somehow not converting gimmies. No one is gonna believe you since we've all seen the guy play and we know he can shoot and finish around the rim.
The real point is that this is a 7'er than can do a lot of good things when you use him inside 20 feet. If we had him last year it would've helped a lot.

We needed more scoring options to make the offense more diversified. Bargnani helps to make the offense more versatile and potent. It's up to Woody to help maximize AB's talent and get the most out of the talent on this team. It's not rocket science to make sure you get a 7'er more catches in the post and more PnP plays.

i actually gave credit to his mid range game in the same post, but of course you're too focus on my criticism to see i actually gave him some credit.

but the numbers are there...he doesnt hit rim shots with efficiency, and it's likely the same reason he doesnt rebound...too lazy to finish the play.

I think you're making too many assumptions about what the numbers mean. Every player is different in how they play and the kinds of attempts they get. Some guys are like Tyson who gets almost all of his attempts off PnR and so he's basically dunking the ball most of the time. Guys like Blake Griffin are always gonna have super high % close to the basket. Athletic bigs tend to have great numbers close to the basket. Bargnani doesn't have freak hops. Bargnani is a shooter more than anything else. He can dunk but I wouldn't call him a high flyer.

The point is that AB can score in a myriad of ways and so you can run a very versatile offense with him in the mix. That's the most important factor. We needed a player who can be a primary scoring option and has a game that will mesh with Melo's game, Tyson and Amar'e. AB can play with everyone on this team and be effective because he's not limited in any way. The big complaint from some is that AB is inefficient but really when you look at the numbers he has aspects of his game that can help this team. All you need is to emphasize his strengths and minimize the low percentage 3pt shots.

so let me ask, what are you actually expecting AB to do this year.. I would love to hear your answer.. Honestly, I do..

nixluva wrote: I want to see AB helping to get this team playing more team oriented BB.

What's obvious is that you don't want to look at history, but would rather live in lala land where you imagine players dressed in orange and blue magically turn into things they never have been.

VCoug wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:I guess this guy sucks too. I am not comparing the two but just isolating rim FG%

http://www.hoopdata.com/player.aspx?name=Roy%20Hibbert

This is his at rim FG% from basketball-reference.

08/09-------.512

09/10-------.609

10/11-------.651

11/12-------.575

12/13-------.552

So we're getting Hibbert minus the defense and rebounding?

Well, that backfired

nixluva wrote:

toad wrote:What you wrote was

nixluva wrote: I want to see AB helping to get this team playing more team oriented BB.

What's obvious is that you don't want to look at history, but would rather live in lala land where you imagine players dressed in orange and blue magically turn into things they never have been.

"helping" was fully explained by me in the next post. AB isn't a PG so clearly he's not creating offense. I assumed that you would comprehend what has been discussed in this thread and not somehow get the impression that a PF is going to "MAKE" the team play more team oriented rather than perhaps "HELPING" the team to be able to play more team oriented BB.

As for "imagining" players being what they haven't been, no one is doing that here. What we're looking at is the areas where players like Melo and AB are strongest and having Woody implement those plays as more of a primary means of attack. We needed another versatile scoring threat. We didn't have enough last year.

Everyone assumes that improving the defense is all you need to do to win, but they don't realize that you have to acquire "defensive talent". Not every player is GREAT defensively. This team isn't going to grow a player as big and strong as Hibbert. The Knicks are more of a finesse team and they beat teams by outscoring them rather than holding them down. The Knicks need to find the MOST efficient and versatile offense they can. Last year they lacked versatility. Adding AB among others this summer improves the teams versatility and enhances a strength of this team, which is scoring. The Pacers will continue to be a bigger and more physical team, with more robust rebounding. We can't beat them at the game. The Knicks have to play Chess and not Checkers. The Pacers were a bigger and more robust rebounding team than the Heat but the Heat beat them anyway.

HEAT beat the pacers because in a 7 game series.. The series went 7 because of the players being a bigger and stronger team, they lost because the heat at this point know how to win... I expect that result to change if they meet again.

The Knicks need to find the MOST efficient and versatile offense they can. Last year they lacked versatility. Adding AB among others this summer improves the teams versatility and enhances a strength of this team, which is scoring.

Adding AB doesn't make us more versatile.. you pretty much added another iso player who like carmelo is not efficient... versatile would have been getting us a luis scola who would actually give the knicks a weapon closer to the paint and it just more consistent...

jrodmc wrote:

toad wrote:What you wrote was

nixluva wrote: I want to see AB helping to get this team playing more team oriented BB.

What's obvious is that you don't want to look at history, but would rather live in lala land where you imagine players dressed in orange and blue magically turn into things they never have been.

BINGO!!

Like JR being SMOTY. Like JR being OTY at anything besides backpage badlines.
Like Melo being a scoring champion! By golly, wasn't it just last year (practically to the day) that folks were whining about how he never did that?
Like washed up oldies like Sheed and KT turning games and road trips around!
Like an over the hill Euro PG like Prigs making people forget Linsanity for oh, say about 13 games in a row!
Like a group of injured elder folks contributing to being Division champs! Why, that sort of thing happens all the time, doesn't it?

Just imagine, just imagine...

BTW, very apropros to use LaLa...land...

Great points! After all, that is why we play the games...

toad wrote:What you wrote was

nixluva wrote: I want to see AB helping to get this team playing more team oriented BB.

What's obvious is that you don't want to look at history, but would rather live in lala land where you imagine players dressed in orange and blue magically turn into things they never have been.

knickscity wrote:

toad wrote:What you wrote was

nixluva wrote: I want to see AB helping to get this team playing more team oriented BB.

What's obvious is that you don't want to look at history, but would rather live in lala land where you imagine players dressed in orange and blue magically turn into things they never have been.

With this post....down goes nixluva.

NO! Only in your imagination did this shut down my argument. In response to this lame attempt I posted this

nixluva wrote:

toad wrote:So, Andrea Bargnani is going to be the answer to our ball movement? Now I've heard it all.

Learn to comprehend what you read. My point wasn't that AB is going to make the team have better Ball and Player Movement, but that having another versatile scorer will allow the Knicks to run more plays rather than rely on ISO. AB and Melo as I posted both need to be used in more PnP, PnR, Down Screen, Curls etc. you can use them in these kinds of plays because they score very well off of them. Despite what many around here think. Both Melo and AB are among the best at scoring off PnR/PnP and we need to get them involved in as much motion as possible.

Carmelo Anthony has been efficient as both the ball handler and roll man on the pick and roll, yet has not gotten enough touches in either role.

On the team’s 1375 pick and roll plays, Anthony is involved as either the ball handler or screener 13.24% of the time, and scores at a very solid 1.11 points per possession on these plays.

Anthony may not be a great playmaker (as evidenced by his pedestrian 9.06% overall assist rate this season according to Hoopdata), but he is an efficient scorer as a P&R ball handler. As the ball handler, Anthony averages 1.04 points per possession, good for fourth overall in the NBA. On such plays, Anthony has an effective field goal percentage of 50%, which includes 13 of 26 from three point range.

Anthony has been an even more efficient scorer as the roll man, a task he should be taking on much more.

He boasts 1.5 points per possession as the roll man, best among all NBA players in that role. On such occasions, Anthony has shot 14 of 22 from the field, including 5 of 7 from beyond the arch (good for a 75% eFG%).

With these numbers in mind, perhaps it is surprising that Anthony is used as the roll man on only 2% of the team’s pick and rolls.

“During the 2011-12 NBA season, as you can see from the chart above, Andrea Bargnani led the league in points per possession based on a minimum of 75 Pick and Pop possessions. Now keep in mind these stats are based soley on the Pick and Pop play type via Synergy Sports Technology extensive database. Take a look at the long list of All-Stars that fall behind Bargnani in this extremely important play type run multiple times during the course of an NBA game and season. Tim Duncan, Kevin Love, Kevin Garnett, LaMarcus Aldridge, Marc Gasol even former Knick David Lee, all trail Bargnani in points per possession which in essence is one of the more notable and realistic metrics used to gauge the efficiency of a player’s skill set.

Ultimately, the points-per-possession metric is a tremendous indicator of how a player maximizes an offensive possession. In Bargnani’s case, although the sample size during 2011-12 was relatively small in terms of games played, he not only was the most efficient player in Pick and Pop play types, but he scored the most points per game and got to the free throw line the highest percentage out of all players in the league.

Understanding the metrics listed above help explain why Bargnani is such a sound option running Pick and Pop action. Now whether he can stay off the injured list for an extended period of time is a whole other story entirely. Back to the numbers.

As you’ll notice Bargnani scored the highest PPP in the league at 1.022 in 2011-12. Points per possession is calculated by dividing a player’s total points by their total possessions. In this case, each player’s PPP listed is based solely on Pick and Pop play types.” Bargnani achieves such a high rating because he attempts more three-pointers than most of the players listed while also showcasing an uncanny ability to entice defenders into fouling him while shooting off Pick and Pop action.