dk7th wrote:

holfresh wrote:

dk7th wrote:

holfresh wrote:

dk7th wrote:

tkf wrote:

holfresh wrote:

tkf wrote:

holfresh wrote:

tkf wrote:

holfresh wrote:Jason Kidd got there, inefficient, Allen Iverson got there, inefficient...I'll take Melo getting us to the dance as inefficient as he is....thank you!!!!

this kind of reminds me of a friend of mine who flipped his car into a pole.. he wasn't wearing his seat belt and that saved his life..... I mean who in the heck needs seat belts right?

sometimes other factors play in.. Iverson, kidd did other things, especially kid who was a great playmaker.... those guys were better players.. but in the end, you do want efficient players....

run across a busy street with your eyes closed, you may get lucky a few times.. but that is not something i would practice..

i would like to know holfresh, what was your view of carmelo before he put on a knicks uniform?

NO...One thing has nothing to do with the other...Try again..

it's all relative man.... it's about doing the right thing,making the right decision, being efficient instead of inefficient, being smart instead of dumb... the same principles apply.

Which is true but those stats are skewed and not reflective of what one would normally considered efficient..For example as Knickshot brought up Billups...His FG% is bad...He shot selection is one of the worst I have seen in the game..He shoots early in the clock, and sometimes further out behind the three point line than one would normally be shooting..He often shoot of out the flow of the offense...But his game is a ball control game....He isn't good at the pick and roll so he doesn't make those risky passes...He is slow, so he isn't pushing the ball on the break with might be prone to 1 more turnover per game, maybe...So his overall assist to turnover should be good...His ft are excellent but his shot selection and FG is horrible yet he is considered efficient...It just doesn't tell the whole story, does it...

There are other variables that go into it...But Billups as an efficient player, can't see it...

yea, looking at billups career numbers you would wonder how that is efficient, without getting into al of the TS stuff, it sure doesn't look that way.. but what i was arguing is that some guys are not as efficient, but they make up for it in other ways, for example kidd.. He was in his prime not only an elite defender at the Pg spot, but an elite rebounder at that position and the best playmaker in the leauge.... the impact was huge... so while efficiency dosn't always mean championship, I just can't wonder why someone would not prefer an efficient player over one who is not, unless that other player has those other parts to his game like kidd does.. I don't think we can say that for carmelo..

that's the whole thing of it. if melo had been a more complete player he would not be such a divisive figure.

he needs to work on his efficiency a lot because he has not been a good defender, has not been a great rebounder, has not been anything close to a creator for others.

billups is capable of creating for others, maybe not in the pick and roll but he certainly is a good enough floor general. and billups's most successful seasons in detroit and denver he was hovering around 60% true shooting.

what would help melo a lot is if he became a little more clever on his drives. as you noted he gets his stuff rejected a bunch. would it kill him to stop and do a pump fake in the lane and draw 2 free throws? honestly if he got to the line 11-12 times a game from getting fouled on drives he would do a great deal of good for his game.

i guess his fans are enamored of this "bully ball" approach-- this is bully ball, right? i'd rather see the dude play with more savvy and cleverness. i mean you have to know they are going to go for the rejection so why not get them off their feet, go up and under, convert and go to the line-- or not convert and still get two free throws.

i swear we will need to see this come playoff time!

Are u kidding???.Melo need to pull up in the lane and pump fake???..Did u just say that???

not kidding. he is too predictable. it's why he gets stuffed even with less weight and doesn't go to the line more. it's why lebron and then the spurs jackson jammed him free throw line extended.

For nine years, Melo has made a living going to the hole getting and ones...One of the quickest guys you see rebound a miss and execute a put back and because the refs having been making a few calls he should change his game..Get real...

not change his game-- e x p a n d his game. look at dirk. until he followed up on the criticism barkley leveled at him-- no low post game-- he fell short. and then his coach asked him to recognize doubles earlier and keep that ball moving to beat the rotating defenders.

oh and dirk is an elite TS% guy for most of his career.

why not ask, demand, that anthony expand his game as well?

holfresh wrote:

dk7th wrote:

holfresh wrote:

dk7th wrote:

holfresh wrote:

dk7th wrote:

tkf wrote:

holfresh wrote:

tkf wrote:

holfresh wrote:

tkf wrote:

holfresh wrote:Jason Kidd got there, inefficient, Allen Iverson got there, inefficient...I'll take Melo getting us to the dance as inefficient as he is....thank you!!!!

this kind of reminds me of a friend of mine who flipped his car into a pole.. he wasn't wearing his seat belt and that saved his life..... I mean who in the heck needs seat belts right?

sometimes other factors play in.. Iverson, kidd did other things, especially kid who was a great playmaker.... those guys were better players.. but in the end, you do want efficient players....

run across a busy street with your eyes closed, you may get lucky a few times.. but that is not something i would practice..

i would like to know holfresh, what was your view of carmelo before he put on a knicks uniform?

NO...One thing has nothing to do with the other...Try again..

it's all relative man.... it's about doing the right thing,making the right decision, being efficient instead of inefficient, being smart instead of dumb... the same principles apply.

Which is true but those stats are skewed and not reflective of what one would normally considered efficient..For example as Knickshot brought up Billups...His FG% is bad...He shot selection is one of the worst I have seen in the game..He shoots early in the clock, and sometimes further out behind the three point line than one would normally be shooting..He often shoot of out the flow of the offense...But his game is a ball control game....He isn't good at the pick and roll so he doesn't make those risky passes...He is slow, so he isn't pushing the ball on the break with might be prone to 1 more turnover per game, maybe...So his overall assist to turnover should be good...His ft are excellent but his shot selection and FG is horrible yet he is considered efficient...It just doesn't tell the whole story, does it...

There are other variables that go into it...But Billups as an efficient player, can't see it...

yea, looking at billups career numbers you would wonder how that is efficient, without getting into al of the TS stuff, it sure doesn't look that way.. but what i was arguing is that some guys are not as efficient, but they make up for it in other ways, for example kidd.. He was in his prime not only an elite defender at the Pg spot, but an elite rebounder at that position and the best playmaker in the leauge.... the impact was huge... so while efficiency dosn't always mean championship, I just can't wonder why someone would not prefer an efficient player over one who is not, unless that other player has those other parts to his game like kidd does.. I don't think we can say that for carmelo..

that's the whole thing of it. if melo had been a more complete player he would not be such a divisive figure.

he needs to work on his efficiency a lot because he has not been a good defender, has not been a great rebounder, has not been anything close to a creator for others.

billups is capable of creating for others, maybe not in the pick and roll but he certainly is a good enough floor general. and billups's most successful seasons in detroit and denver he was hovering around 60% true shooting.

what would help melo a lot is if he became a little more clever on his drives. as you noted he gets his stuff rejected a bunch. would it kill him to stop and do a pump fake in the lane and draw 2 free throws? honestly if he got to the line 11-12 times a game from getting fouled on drives he would do a great deal of good for his game.

i guess his fans are enamored of this "bully ball" approach-- this is bully ball, right? i'd rather see the dude play with more savvy and cleverness. i mean you have to know they are going to go for the rejection so why not get them off their feet, go up and under, convert and go to the line-- or not convert and still get two free throws.

i swear we will need to see this come playoff time!

Are u kidding???.Melo need to pull up in the lane and pump fake???..Did u just say that???

not kidding. he is too predictable. it's why he gets stuffed even with less weight and doesn't go to the line more. it's why lebron and then the spurs jackson jammed him free throw line extended.

For nine years, Melo has made a living going to the hole getting and ones...One of the quickest guys you see rebound a miss and execute a put back and because the refs having been making a few calls he should change his game..Get real...

not change his game-- e x p a n d his game. look at dirk. until he followed up on the criticism barkley leveled at him-- no low post game-- he fell short. and then his coach asked him to recognize doubles earlier and keep that ball moving to beat the rotating defenders.

oh and dirk is an elite TS% guy for most of his career.

why not ask, demand, that anthony expand his game as well?

U don't want him to pull up...U want him to put pressure on the defense to get the foul..Make the refs make the call...Get to the line..Get the other team bigs in foul trouble...He is good at it too..Because he hasn't been getting calls in a young season or is being block down't mean he should stop...I remember as a kid David Thompson spoke about exactly this...Come on, what Melo is doing is exactly correct...Fading away isn't expanding your game..It's copping out of contact...

You gotta admit he doesn't get the calls due to be so predictable.

Melo is known for his versatility on offense, what wrong with adding more to it?

dk7th wrote:

tkf wrote:

holfresh wrote:

tkf wrote:

holfresh wrote:

tkf wrote:

holfresh wrote:Jason Kidd got there, inefficient, Allen Iverson got there, inefficient...I'll take Melo getting us to the dance as inefficient as he is....thank you!!!!

this kind of reminds me of a friend of mine who flipped his car into a pole.. he wasn't wearing his seat belt and that saved his life..... I mean who in the heck needs seat belts right?

sometimes other factors play in.. Iverson, kidd did other things, especially kid who was a great playmaker.... those guys were better players.. but in the end, you do want efficient players....

run across a busy street with your eyes closed, you may get lucky a few times.. but that is not something i would practice..

i would like to know holfresh, what was your view of carmelo before he put on a knicks uniform?

NO...One thing has nothing to do with the other...Try again..

it's all relative man.... it's about doing the right thing,making the right decision, being efficient instead of inefficient, being smart instead of dumb... the same principles apply.

Which is true but those stats are skewed and not reflective of what one would normally considered efficient..For example as Knickshot brought up Billups...His FG% is bad...He shot selection is one of the worst I have seen in the game..He shoots early in the clock, and sometimes further out behind the three point line than one would normally be shooting..He often shoot of out the flow of the offense...But his game is a ball control game....He isn't good at the pick and roll so he doesn't make those risky passes...He is slow, so he isn't pushing the ball on the break with might be prone to 1 more turnover per game, maybe...So his overall assist to turnover should be good...His ft are excellent but his shot selection and FG is horrible yet he is considered efficient...It just doesn't tell the whole story, does it...

There are other variables that go into it...But Billups as an efficient player, can't see it...

yea, looking at billups career numbers you would wonder how that is efficient, without getting into al of the TS stuff, it sure doesn't look that way.. but what i was arguing is that some guys are not as efficient, but they make up for it in other ways, for example kidd.. He was in his prime not only an elite defender at the Pg spot, but an elite rebounder at that position and the best playmaker in the leauge.... the impact was huge... so while efficiency dosn't always mean championship, I just can't wonder why someone would not prefer an efficient player over one who is not, unless that other player has those other parts to his game like kidd does.. I don't think we can say that for carmelo..

that's the whole thing of it. if melo had been a more complete player he would not be such a divisive figure.

he needs to work on his efficiency a lot because he has not been a good defender, has not been a great rebounder, has not been anything close to a creator for others.

billups is capable of creating for others, maybe not in the pick and roll but he certainly is a good enough floor general. and billups's most successful seasons in detroit and denver he was hovering around 60% true shooting.

what would help melo a lot is if he became a little more clever on his drives. as you noted he gets his stuff rejected a bunch. would it kill him to stop and do a pump fake in the lane and draw 2 free throws? honestly if he got to the line 11-12 times a game from getting fouled on drives he would do a great deal of good for his game.

i guess his fans are enamored of this "bully ball" approach-- this is bully ball, right? i'd rather see the dude play with more savvy and cleverness. i mean you have to know they are going to go for the rejection so why not get them off their feet, go up and under, convert and go to the line-- or not convert and still get two free throws.

i swear we will need to see this come playoff time!

When did Melo become not a great rebounder..he is always tops for the Small forward position in rebounds. Lost me there.

dk7th wrote:

tkf wrote:

holfresh wrote:

tkf wrote:

holfresh wrote:

tkf wrote:

holfresh wrote:Jason Kidd got there, inefficient, Allen Iverson got there, inefficient...I'll take Melo getting us to the dance as inefficient as he is....thank you!!!!

this kind of reminds me of a friend of mine who flipped his car into a pole.. he wasn't wearing his seat belt and that saved his life..... I mean who in the heck needs seat belts right?

sometimes other factors play in.. Iverson, kidd did other things, especially kid who was a great playmaker.... those guys were better players.. but in the end, you do want efficient players....

run across a busy street with your eyes closed, you may get lucky a few times.. but that is not something i would practice..

i would like to know holfresh, what was your view of carmelo before he put on a knicks uniform?

NO...One thing has nothing to do with the other...Try again..

it's all relative man.... it's about doing the right thing,making the right decision, being efficient instead of inefficient, being smart instead of dumb... the same principles apply.

Which is true but those stats are skewed and not reflective of what one would normally considered efficient..For example as Knickshot brought up Billups...His FG% is bad...He shot selection is one of the worst I have seen in the game..He shoots early in the clock, and sometimes further out behind the three point line than one would normally be shooting..He often shoot of out the flow of the offense...But his game is a ball control game....He isn't good at the pick and roll so he doesn't make those risky passes...He is slow, so he isn't pushing the ball on the break with might be prone to 1 more turnover per game, maybe...So his overall assist to turnover should be good...His ft are excellent but his shot selection and FG is horrible yet he is considered efficient...It just doesn't tell the whole story, does it...

There are other variables that go into it...But Billups as an efficient player, can't see it...

yea, looking at billups career numbers you would wonder how that is efficient, without getting into al of the TS stuff, it sure doesn't look that way.. but what i was arguing is that some guys are not as efficient, but they make up for it in other ways, for example kidd.. He was in his prime not only an elite defender at the Pg spot, but an elite rebounder at that position and the best playmaker in the leauge.... the impact was huge... so while efficiency dosn't always mean championship, I just can't wonder why someone would not prefer an efficient player over one who is not, unless that other player has those other parts to his game like kidd does.. I don't think we can say that for carmelo..

that's the whole thing of it. if melo had been a more complete player he would not be such a divisive figure.

he needs to work on his efficiency a lot because he has not been a good defender, has not been a great rebounder, has not been anything close to a creator for others.

billups is capable of creating for others, maybe not in the pick and roll but he certainly is a good enough floor general. and billups's most successful seasons in detroit and denver he was hovering around 60% true shooting.

what would help melo a lot is if he became a little more clever on his drives. as you noted he gets his stuff rejected a bunch. would it kill him to stop and do a pump fake in the lane and draw 2 free throws? honestly if he got to the line 11-12 times a game from getting fouled on drives he would do a great deal of good for his game.

i guess his fans are enamored of this "bully ball" approach-- this is bully ball, right? i'd rather see the dude play with more savvy and cleverness. i mean you have to know they are going to go for the rejection so why not get them off their feet, go up and under, convert and go to the line-- or not convert and still get two free throws.

i swear we will need to see this come playoff time!

yea dk, it is pretty clear, he is what he is.. 2nd tier and not elite, but some are just not happy with that.. even if the knicks are winning..

His offensive game is also becoming like a dinosaur, that bull your way to the basket game is very predictable, do you see how often he gets his shot blocked now...

todays great players and scorers move without the ball, get a lot of "cheap" baskets, easy baskets and can directly make plays for others.. (see james harden, he is great at that) in some ways carmelo game is like a CD in the era of MP3's and file sharing... he has to adapt....if he wants to be relevant, and that includes embracing every aspect of the game...

holfresh wrote:P.S....No one who shoots 41% should be considered efficient...

So if a guy went 4 for 10 from the field and 30 for 30 from the line in the game, that would be inefficient? Makes no sense. He would have gotten 38 points out of 25 possessions - that's an insanely efficient use of 25 possessions.

Bonn1997 wrote:

holfresh wrote:P.S....No one who shoots 41% should be considered efficient...

So if a guy went 4 for 10 from the field and 30 for 30 from the line in the game, that would be inefficient? Makes no sense. He would have gotten 38 points out of 25 possessions - that's an insanely efficient use of 25 possessions.

I was gonna ask about that? How much weight if put on FT attempts when evaluating the %. If the guy shoots 40% but 90% from the free though line and 40% from 3 but only takes 2 FTs and 1 three a game. Is his TS% still rated high due the % or lower due to the amount of attempts?

newyorknewyork wrote:

tkf wrote:

dk7th wrote:

tkf wrote:

holfresh wrote:

tkf wrote:

holfresh wrote:

tkf wrote:

holfresh wrote:Jason Kidd got there, inefficient, Allen Iverson got there, inefficient...I'll take Melo getting us to the dance as inefficient as he is....thank you!!!!

this kind of reminds me of a friend of mine who flipped his car into a pole.. he wasn't wearing his seat belt and that saved his life..... I mean who in the heck needs seat belts right?

sometimes other factors play in.. Iverson, kidd did other things, especially kid who was a great playmaker.... those guys were better players.. but in the end, you do want efficient players....

run across a busy street with your eyes closed, you may get lucky a few times.. but that is not something i would practice..

i would like to know holfresh, what was your view of carmelo before he put on a knicks uniform?

NO...One thing has nothing to do with the other...Try again..

it's all relative man.... it's about doing the right thing,making the right decision, being efficient instead of inefficient, being smart instead of dumb... the same principles apply.

Which is true but those stats are skewed and not reflective of what one would normally considered efficient..For example as Knickshot brought up Billups...His FG% is bad...He shot selection is one of the worst I have seen in the game..He shoots early in the clock, and sometimes further out behind the three point line than one would normally be shooting..He often shoot of out the flow of the offense...But his game is a ball control game....He isn't good at the pick and roll so he doesn't make those risky passes...He is slow, so he isn't pushing the ball on the break with might be prone to 1 more turnover per game, maybe...So his overall assist to turnover should be good...His ft are excellent but his shot selection and FG is horrible yet he is considered efficient...It just doesn't tell the whole story, does it...

There are other variables that go into it...But Billups as an efficient player, can't see it...

yea, looking at billups career numbers you would wonder how that is efficient, without getting into al of the TS stuff, it sure doesn't look that way.. but what i was arguing is that some guys are not as efficient, but they make up for it in other ways, for example kidd.. He was in his prime not only an elite defender at the Pg spot, but an elite rebounder at that position and the best playmaker in the leauge.... the impact was huge... so while efficiency dosn't always mean championship, I just can't wonder why someone would not prefer an efficient player over one who is not, unless that other player has those other parts to his game like kidd does.. I don't think we can say that for carmelo..

that's the whole thing of it. if melo had been a more complete player he would not be such a divisive figure.

he needs to work on his efficiency a lot because he has not been a good defender, has not been a great rebounder, has not been anything close to a creator for others.

billups is capable of creating for others, maybe not in the pick and roll but he certainly is a good enough floor general. and billups's most successful seasons in detroit and denver he was hovering around 60% true shooting.

what would help melo a lot is if he became a little more clever on his drives. as you noted he gets his stuff rejected a bunch. would it kill him to stop and do a pump fake in the lane and draw 2 free throws? honestly if he got to the line 11-12 times a game from getting fouled on drives he would do a great deal of good for his game.

i guess his fans are enamored of this "bully ball" approach-- this is bully ball, right? i'd rather see the dude play with more savvy and cleverness. i mean you have to know they are going to go for the rejection so why not get them off their feet, go up and under, convert and go to the line-- or not convert and still get two free throws.

i swear we will need to see this come playoff time!

yea dk, it is pretty clear, he is what he is.. 2nd tier and not elite, but some are just not happy with that.. even if the knicks are winning..

His offensive game is also becoming like a dinosaur, that bull your way to the basket game is very predictable, do you see how often he gets his shot blocked now...

todays great players and scorers move without the ball, get a lot of "cheap" baskets, easy baskets and can directly make plays for others.. (see james harden, he is great at that) in some ways carmelo game is like a CD in the era of MP3's and file sharing... he has to adapt....if he wants to be relevant, and that includes embracing every aspect of the game...

I agree he needs to work on more array of moves when attacking the basket.

You notice that Melo has no hops. He can beat most guys off the dribble and has quick feet, but once he beats them he can't elevate that is why he gets his shot blocked. He can't play above the rim don't have the hops to do it.

Your trying a little to hard to prove that he isn't elite though. Sure he needs to work on more moves in this specific area but lets not act like he can't beat you in many different ways in terms of posting up, shooting or driving. Name me the other none elite players that can do so?

without bothering to go into it... the list is a bit longer than you may think..but we will just disagree here..

tkf wrote:

i think teams like the rockets, and thunder will dissagree... but to address your point, if you are not lucky in the lottery, how do you reload without the assets and picks to do so? if you are going to trade all of your flexibilty for one guy he better be "that guy", that foundation piece.. I just don't see carmelo as that guy and looking at your expectations I don't think you do as well.. this is not horse shoe.. you don't play to get close, you play to win...Are you telling me that the prior teas was never going to make any more moves?

Rockets and Thunder are worlds apart. Thunder had multiple picks at the top of drafts and landed an absolute stud. They have a core built through the lottery, consistent with my earlier point. The Rockets are a work in progress. There is no evidence that they will ever compete at a high level. Harden may potentially be only a "B" star. Yes, they have cap space to work with and to build further. Perhaps that is what lures you in and why you are down on the Knicks. You seem to prefer only the rebuild with youth process.

Denver is young, they have picks, (our picks) very good youth and flexibility... they are a playoff team, and i can see them in the WCF over the next year or so, and at that point they can re-evaluate their talent, make moves or just add on with the picks they have.. their cap situation at the end of 14/15 season is very good, they will be able to go after more players... they are in very good shape... I mean they were not getting out of the first round with carmelo, i think even you can agree with that...

I think Denver has only one first rounder from us. They may have second rounders, but you seem to rate 2nd round picks much higher of a value than most. Denver will still have Gallo, Wilson, Lawson, McGee, Faried and Anthony Randolph on contract in 14/15 and beyond in some cases. My bet is that their current roster is not as close to getting to the WCF in the next year as you feel. They are still behind OKC, Memphis, LA and the Spurs this year. They will also get competition from the Clips among others. I go back to your point above regarding horse shoes. Why is it OK for Denver to only vie for the WCF, but not OK for the Knicks to vie for the ECF? In 15/16 the Knicks will most likely have Novak, JR Smith, Shump, Felton and two first rounders on their roster with a boatload of cap space. Based on this, the Knicks are currently in better shape...they are closer to the ECF in the next two years (comparing to Denver in the WCF).....and only behind Denver by one year in what will essentially be a re-boot.

even if that is the case, we won't have replenished any young talent.. just think in 2 years, guys like kyrie evans, jrue holliday, rondo, those guys who are still very young now will only be getting better, their teams will be adding pieces growing, we won't be doing that, we will almost be in rebuild mode with no young players(other than shump) having developed.... we may be behind those teams by then..

They guys you mention here are in different situations. Rondo is surrounded by an aging team. It will be unlikely that the Celtics will be as good as they are now once the three Amigos retire. Further, while rebuilding can be rewarding to fans, there is no guarantee that Kyrie nor Jrue will ever have teams/rosters to get them to the heights they want to achieve. I'll take the current Knicks with a punchers chance of making it to the Finals this year (and perhaps next)...rather than waiting another 2-3 years to see how a star such as Irving develops/avoids injury/gets better players around him...and see where that takes him. You really are doing a disservice to where the road will lead for the Knicks. There may be trades that bring in picks. Shump and the 2 first rounders may turn out to be a nice nucleus. I think you might be too busy worrying about what happens three years from now instead of enjoying what is happening so far this year with this roster.

lets look at this... at the end of the 14/15 year, lets say we don't keep anyone not under contract, so that will leave us felton, shump and novak... feel good about buidling with that.. at least had we kept lin we can say, ok, we now have a foundation with lin and shump.. felton will be on the other side of 30 by then and he is just a average guard now... and look a this.. we will have our pick this year... most feel we will be good, so that is a late pick.. fine..

Shump and the 13 / 15 First Round Picks are key. Felton is a nice guard....but I really don't feel that Lin is a foundation type of player either...we shall see. JR will be on the team. His play this year will get him at least another 3 year gig. Novak will still also be under contract. It will be a reload year. If the current roster succeeds, it will be all worth it. To me this is better than the alternative of a mediocre roster with no shot....always looking two-three years down the road. That's the spot Denver is in right now (IMHO). We obviously dissagree on this point...but I just don't understand why you hold the Knicks to a higher standard then Denver regarding winning a ship.

we have our pick in 2015, and come 2016, the year in which we might not be as good depending if we are trying to rebuild as you stated since we will have cap room, denver has the right to swap, so if we are not good, they take our pick.. again, how do you rebuild that way.. you better hope we hit the free agent jackpot... and so far, we have yet to do that..

Most teams will need to manuever wisely under this CBA. So far Grunwald has shown he is adept at roster/cap management. It will not only be free agents that defines the Knicks in the future. There will also be trades and FA pickups. Under this CBA - there will also be valuable guys who can be brought into the right situation to play for the Minimum. We shall see.

dk7th wrote:

holfresh wrote:

knickscity wrote:

holfresh wrote:

dk7th wrote:

holfresh wrote:

dk7th wrote:

holfresh wrote:

dk7th wrote:

tkf wrote:

holfresh wrote:

tkf wrote:

holfresh wrote:

tkf wrote:

holfresh wrote:Jason Kidd got there, inefficient, Allen Iverson got there, inefficient...I'll take Melo getting us to the dance as inefficient as he is....thank you!!!!

this kind of reminds me of a friend of mine who flipped his car into a pole.. he wasn't wearing his seat belt and that saved his life..... I mean who in the heck needs seat belts right?

sometimes other factors play in.. Iverson, kidd did other things, especially kid who was a great playmaker.... those guys were better players.. but in the end, you do want efficient players....

run across a busy street with your eyes closed, you may get lucky a few times.. but that is not something i would practice..

i would like to know holfresh, what was your view of carmelo before he put on a knicks uniform?

NO...One thing has nothing to do with the other...Try again..

it's all relative man.... it's about doing the right thing,making the right decision, being efficient instead of inefficient, being smart instead of dumb... the same principles apply.

Which is true but those stats are skewed and not reflective of what one would normally considered efficient..For example as Knickshot brought up Billups...His FG% is bad...He shot selection is one of the worst I have seen in the game..He shoots early in the clock, and sometimes further out behind the three point line than one would normally be shooting..He often shoot of out the flow of the offense...But his game is a ball control game....He isn't good at the pick and roll so he doesn't make those risky passes...He is slow, so he isn't pushing the ball on the break with might be prone to 1 more turnover per game, maybe...So his overall assist to turnover should be good...His ft are excellent but his shot selection and FG is horrible yet he is considered efficient...It just doesn't tell the whole story, does it...

There are other variables that go into it...But Billups as an efficient player, can't see it...

yea, looking at billups career numbers you would wonder how that is efficient, without getting into al of the TS stuff, it sure doesn't look that way.. but what i was arguing is that some guys are not as efficient, but they make up for it in other ways, for example kidd.. He was in his prime not only an elite defender at the Pg spot, but an elite rebounder at that position and the best playmaker in the leauge.... the impact was huge... so while efficiency dosn't always mean championship, I just can't wonder why someone would not prefer an efficient player over one who is not, unless that other player has those other parts to his game like kidd does.. I don't think we can say that for carmelo..

that's the whole thing of it. if melo had been a more complete player he would not be such a divisive figure.

he needs to work on his efficiency a lot because he has not been a good defender, has not been a great rebounder, has not been anything close to a creator for others.

billups is capable of creating for others, maybe not in the pick and roll but he certainly is a good enough floor general. and billups's most successful seasons in detroit and denver he was hovering around 60% true shooting.

what would help melo a lot is if he became a little more clever on his drives. as you noted he gets his stuff rejected a bunch. would it kill him to stop and do a pump fake in the lane and draw 2 free throws? honestly if he got to the line 11-12 times a game from getting fouled on drives he would do a great deal of good for his game.

i guess his fans are enamored of this "bully ball" approach-- this is bully ball, right? i'd rather see the dude play with more savvy and cleverness. i mean you have to know they are going to go for the rejection so why not get them off their feet, go up and under, convert and go to the line-- or not convert and still get two free throws.

i swear we will need to see this come playoff time!

Are u kidding???.Melo need to pull up in the lane and pump fake???..Did u just say that???

not kidding. he is too predictable. it's why he gets stuffed even with less weight and doesn't go to the line more. it's why lebron and then the spurs jackson jammed him free throw line extended.

For nine years, Melo has made a living going to the hole getting and ones...One of the quickest guys you see rebound a miss and execute a put back and because the refs having been making a few calls he should change his game..Get real...

not change his game-- e x p a n d his game. look at dirk. until he followed up on the criticism barkley leveled at him-- no low post game-- he fell short. and then his coach asked him to recognize doubles earlier and keep that ball moving to beat the rotating defenders.

oh and dirk is an elite TS% guy for most of his career.

why not ask, demand, that anthony expand his game as well?

U don't want him to pull up...U want him to put pressure on the defense to get the foul..Make the refs make the call...Get to the line..Get the other team bigs in foul trouble...He is good at it too..Because he hasn't been getting calls in a young season or is being block down't mean he should stop...I remember as a kid David Thompson spoke about exactly this...Come on, what Melo is doing is exactly correct...Fading away isn't expanding your game..It's copping out of contact...

DK is basically saying for Melo to expand his game, not do something else exclusively.

You gotta admit he doesn't get the calls due to be so predictable.

Melo is known for his versatility on offense, what wrong with adding more to it?

Expand what game..Do you think it's anything extra to pull up..It's not...I would much rather him get the foul...It hasn't been a problem for nine years... But in a few games he should change the way he attacks the rim...ok

i think you are being a bit narrow-minded or unimaginative here. i said nothing about fading away. i am talking about faking guys into the air and doing an up an under first and foremost. mix it up, keep the defense off balance and guessing, draw a foul by drawing contact not avoiding contact. he doesn't have a fadeaway in his arsenal but he should be able to develop one if he is going to go up against longer power forwards. look at garnett's little 8-10 foot wrist flip fadeaways they're a thing of beauty not to mention career lengtheners.

melo fans like to boast about how versatile a scorer melo is. i don't really see it that way. lots of it has to do with his lack of guile and as i said before his predictability. when he drives he does only one thing when he needs to be able to do 3 things.

Did u see the game tonight??

holfresh wrote:

dk7th wrote:

holfresh wrote:

knickscity wrote:

holfresh wrote:

dk7th wrote:

holfresh wrote:

dk7th wrote:

holfresh wrote:

dk7th wrote:

tkf wrote:

holfresh wrote:

tkf wrote:

holfresh wrote:

tkf wrote:

holfresh wrote:Jason Kidd got there, inefficient, Allen Iverson got there, inefficient...I'll take Melo getting us to the dance as inefficient as he is....thank you!!!!

this kind of reminds me of a friend of mine who flipped his car into a pole.. he wasn't wearing his seat belt and that saved his life..... I mean who in the heck needs seat belts right?

sometimes other factors play in.. Iverson, kidd did other things, especially kid who was a great playmaker.... those guys were better players.. but in the end, you do want efficient players....

run across a busy street with your eyes closed, you may get lucky a few times.. but that is not something i would practice..

i would like to know holfresh, what was your view of carmelo before he put on a knicks uniform?

NO...One thing has nothing to do with the other...Try again..

it's all relative man.... it's about doing the right thing,making the right decision, being efficient instead of inefficient, being smart instead of dumb... the same principles apply.

Which is true but those stats are skewed and not reflective of what one would normally considered efficient..For example as Knickshot brought up Billups...His FG% is bad...He shot selection is one of the worst I have seen in the game..He shoots early in the clock, and sometimes further out behind the three point line than one would normally be shooting..He often shoot of out the flow of the offense...But his game is a ball control game....He isn't good at the pick and roll so he doesn't make those risky passes...He is slow, so he isn't pushing the ball on the break with might be prone to 1 more turnover per game, maybe...So his overall assist to turnover should be good...His ft are excellent but his shot selection and FG is horrible yet he is considered efficient...It just doesn't tell the whole story, does it...

There are other variables that go into it...But Billups as an efficient player, can't see it...

yea, looking at billups career numbers you would wonder how that is efficient, without getting into al of the TS stuff, it sure doesn't look that way.. but what i was arguing is that some guys are not as efficient, but they make up for it in other ways, for example kidd.. He was in his prime not only an elite defender at the Pg spot, but an elite rebounder at that position and the best playmaker in the leauge.... the impact was huge... so while efficiency dosn't always mean championship, I just can't wonder why someone would not prefer an efficient player over one who is not, unless that other player has those other parts to his game like kidd does.. I don't think we can say that for carmelo..

that's the whole thing of it. if melo had been a more complete player he would not be such a divisive figure.

he needs to work on his efficiency a lot because he has not been a good defender, has not been a great rebounder, has not been anything close to a creator for others.

billups is capable of creating for others, maybe not in the pick and roll but he certainly is a good enough floor general. and billups's most successful seasons in detroit and denver he was hovering around 60% true shooting.

what would help melo a lot is if he became a little more clever on his drives. as you noted he gets his stuff rejected a bunch. would it kill him to stop and do a pump fake in the lane and draw 2 free throws? honestly if he got to the line 11-12 times a game from getting fouled on drives he would do a great deal of good for his game.

i guess his fans are enamored of this "bully ball" approach-- this is bully ball, right? i'd rather see the dude play with more savvy and cleverness. i mean you have to know they are going to go for the rejection so why not get them off their feet, go up and under, convert and go to the line-- or not convert and still get two free throws.

i swear we will need to see this come playoff time!

Are u kidding???.Melo need to pull up in the lane and pump fake???..Did u just say that???

not kidding. he is too predictable. it's why he gets stuffed even with less weight and doesn't go to the line more. it's why lebron and then the spurs jackson jammed him free throw line extended.

For nine years, Melo has made a living going to the hole getting and ones...One of the quickest guys you see rebound a miss and execute a put back and because the refs having been making a few calls he should change his game..Get real...

not change his game-- e x p a n d his game. look at dirk. until he followed up on the criticism barkley leveled at him-- no low post game-- he fell short. and then his coach asked him to recognize doubles earlier and keep that ball moving to beat the rotating defenders.

oh and dirk is an elite TS% guy for most of his career.

why not ask, demand, that anthony expand his game as well?

U don't want him to pull up...U want him to put pressure on the defense to get the foul..Make the refs make the call...Get to the line..Get the other team bigs in foul trouble...He is good at it too..Because he hasn't been getting calls in a young season or is being block down't mean he should stop...I remember as a kid David Thompson spoke about exactly this...Come on, what Melo is doing is exactly correct...Fading away isn't expanding your game..It's copping out of contact...

DK is basically saying for Melo to expand his game, not do something else exclusively.

You gotta admit he doesn't get the calls due to be so predictable.

Melo is known for his versatility on offense, what wrong with adding more to it?

Expand what game..Do you think it's anything extra to pull up..It's not...I would much rather him get the foul...It hasn't been a problem for nine years... But in a few games he should change the way he attacks the rim...ok

i think you are being a bit narrow-minded or unimaginative here. i said nothing about fading away. i am talking about faking guys into the air and doing an up an under first and foremost. mix it up, keep the defense off balance and guessing, draw a foul by drawing contact not avoiding contact. he doesn't have a fadeaway in his arsenal but he should be able to develop one if he is going to go up against longer power forwards. look at garnett's little 8-10 foot wrist flip fadeaways they're a thing of beauty not to mention career lengtheners.

melo fans like to boast about how versatile a scorer melo is. i don't really see it that way. lots of it has to do with his lack of guile and as i said before his predictability. when he drives he does only one thing when he needs to be able to do 3 things.

Did u see the game tonight??

You mean this game?

3G4G wrote:Melo is not a versatile scorer....

THE END!

Don't take my word for it...