tkf wrote:

knickscity wrote:

mrKnickShot wrote:

tkf wrote:

knickscity wrote:

tkf wrote:

knickscity wrote:

tkf wrote:

knickscity wrote:shumpert received first place defensive votes???

Time to stop posting dude.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/awards/awards_2012.html#dpoy

i said one first place vote.... I must have misread, but he did receive votes, heck more than wade it seems, again impressive for a rookie, my point still stands....

He received none, points aren't votes.

Well i guess he might be like Wade after all.....the 30 year old version.

each vote is worth a point(1st place =5 points, second place 3 points, 3rd place 1 point), he has 3 points I think it was, so he must have received votes dude..

and I will take the 30 year old version of wade, he would be the best player on our team currently....

He received zero first place votes, why are you still debating this? Without any first place votes you are not gonna win that award.

get crap out of your eyes.. I said he didn't.. but he received 3 3rd place votes which is how he ended up with 3 points!!

you said he was overrated, i am asking how? I said he had the potential to be elite one day.... the nba had him above wade and westbrook two very good defenders..

you are just wrong here...

Get the crap out of your eyes?

Can't you begin to take notice of your severe problem?

It's really simple, he's bi-polar.

Shumpert is a good defender because he got two points, but no first place votes.

I wonder how he feels about Melo being in the MVP convo.

mvp convo is nothing official.. that is the difference... again, all you two guys can do is throw insults, just shows your inability to hold a discussion especially in the face of evidence that is not in your favor..

MVP conversation means what? what is the official standing with that?

shumpert received dpoy votes, albeit third place votes, again,people are officially taking notice...

but again you play the shell game.. you called him overrated, I asked you how and pointed out that he received dpoy votes, period, that is a fact....I never said he won, or had a chance to win, just how is that overrated when in this conversation I never did such a thing..

again, you take a childish approach, and then throw in the peanut gallery behind cosigning your bs, you run right along...

just shows you are really in above your head, and not capable of holding an intelligent convo... pretty much a losers approach..

i am done here.. just admit you are wrong.. you called him overrated and I am asking , what was shumpert rated?

Ha!

You are accusing others of hurling insults?

Lol Bruhhh!

You keep saying you are done but yet you forge ahead ...

Go figure.

dk7th wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

dk7th wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

FoeDiddy wrote:Harden is no Melo. Him disappearing last year in finals as 3rd option says a lot. No post game like Melo, doesnt' rebound like melo and doesn't defend like the New Melo.

as opposed to Melo's .390 post-season FG% for us?

Hey Bonn what is Melos FG% or TS% in critical and clutch situations compared to the rest of the league? When the team absolutly needs a bucket?

i don't know about critical or clutch situations but for his career his regular season FG% is an entirely mediocre 45.6 and goes down to a pathetic 41.9 in the playoffs.

in terms of TS% in the regular season it is an entirely mediocre 54.4 (this is his TS% so far this season BTW) and plummets to an awful 51.8 in the playoffs.

these numbers imply that he does not rise to the occasion overall and that if teams do in fact plan for him that his losing playoff history show that he doesn't have the ability to adjust, that he's basically a one-trick pony.

the question is will his defense and hustle plays turn him into a true positive-sum player come the second round of the playoffs?

82games.com has clutch stats. looking at his best season in 08-09 (note no TS% which would include getting to the line):

SHOT ATT eFG ASS BLK NET
Jumpers 71% .300 50% 10% 0.9
Close 21% .667 0% 0% 0.6
Dunk 7% 1.000 0% 0% 0.3
Tips 0% .000 0% 0% 0.0
Inside 29% .750 0% 0% 0.9

these stats don't actually state whether the team is ahead by 5 or behind by 5.

for comparison, if you look at pierce the year garnett was out (08-09), he averages 2.6 net on jumpers and .8 close in. i use this season because without garnett you can be sure that the celtics were fighting from behind more often than not.

pierce 2.6 and .8 in 08-09 the year garnett was out and you presume the celtics will be trailing more often than not
bryant 2.6 and .4 in 08-09 against the inferior magic squad
bryant 1.5 and .6 in 07-08 against the superior celtic squad
wade 1.6 and .6 in 05-06 which was the ref gifting series so he had help
melo 0.9 and .6 in 08-09 which was his most successful playoff season

melo is well off the pace of his so-called peers.

Intersting,

At the same time Wade is 4-16 in the playoffs after he lost Shaq and before he got with Lebron. After the east got stronger and Pierce lost Walker for a 3yr spand he went 3-8 in the playoffs while missing it entirely one of the those yrs before they got Garnett. Bryants 3yr span after he lost Shaq he missed the playoffs then went 4-8 the 2 yrs he did go.

Melo's last 2 playoff yrs in Denver when he got Billups

He averaged 29pts, 456fg%, 840ft%, 9.1ftattempts, 340/3pt%, 7rebs, 3.8ast, 1.8stls, 2.6to

His last yr in the playoffs for Denver
30.7pts, 464fg%, 877ft%, 9.5 ftattempts, 316 3pt%, 8.5rebs, 4ast, 2stls, 3.5tos

According to you guys own stat logic Melo was great in the playoffs his last 2 yrs in Denver. And other then fg% was incredible in the plaoffs vs Boston. Vs Miami we were overmatched and they had the best collections of swamming athletes in the NBA. In comparison Durant who is better then Anthony with WAY more help last playoffs while more effiecient in shooting I believe lost out to Anthony in every other statistical category when facing Miami in the finals while also winning the same amount of games that Anhthony did vs the champs.

You really can't analyze scoring efficiency in a sample of fewer than 1000 shots. If you look at each individual post-season, you're going to have wildly inconsistent data.

Quick question Bonn, based on the stats for his last yr in Denver which he lost in the first rd. Do you believe he lost that series because he was inefficient?

46.4 fg% average
49.1 eFG% below average
56.4 TS% average
32% USG with 3.3 assists and 3.5 turnovers-- not good at all
15% assist rate = 85% isolation scoring

outside of really mediocre scoring efficiency and overall selfishness he surely was not defending and making hustle plays.

these stats really demonstrate how melo is really a zero-sum player. his 30.7 point average for that series is the definition of empty.

Bonn1997 wrote:

dk7th wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

dk7th wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

FoeDiddy wrote:Harden is no Melo. Him disappearing last year in finals as 3rd option says a lot. No post game like Melo, doesnt' rebound like melo and doesn't defend like the New Melo.

as opposed to Melo's .390 post-season FG% for us?

Hey Bonn what is Melos FG% or TS% in critical and clutch situations compared to the rest of the league? When the team absolutly needs a bucket?

i don't know about critical or clutch situations but for his career his regular season FG% is an entirely mediocre 45.6 and goes down to a pathetic 41.9 in the playoffs.

in terms of TS% in the regular season it is an entirely mediocre 54.4 (this is his TS% so far this season BTW) and plummets to an awful 51.8 in the playoffs.

these numbers imply that he does not rise to the occasion overall and that if teams do in fact plan for him that his losing playoff history show that he doesn't have the ability to adjust, that he's basically a one-trick pony.

the question is will his defense and hustle plays turn him into a true positive-sum player come the second round of the playoffs?

82games.com has clutch stats. looking at his best season in 08-09 (note no TS% which would include getting to the line):

SHOT ATT eFG ASS BLK NET
Jumpers 71% .300 50% 10% 0.9
Close 21% .667 0% 0% 0.6
Dunk 7% 1.000 0% 0% 0.3
Tips 0% .000 0% 0% 0.0
Inside 29% .750 0% 0% 0.9

these stats don't actually state whether the team is ahead by 5 or behind by 5.

for comparison, if you look at pierce the year garnett was out (08-09), he averages 2.6 net on jumpers and .8 close in. i use this season because without garnett you can be sure that the celtics were fighting from behind more often than not.

pierce 2.6 and .8 in 08-09 the year garnett was out and you presume the celtics will be trailing more often than not
bryant 2.6 and .4 in 08-09 against the inferior magic squad
bryant 1.5 and .6 in 07-08 against the superior celtic squad
wade 1.6 and .6 in 05-06 which was the ref gifting series so he had help
melo 0.9 and .6 in 08-09 which was his most successful playoff season

melo is well off the pace of his so-called peers.

Intersting,

At the same time Wade is 4-16 in the playoffs after he lost Shaq and before he got with Lebron. After the east got stronger and Pierce lost Walker for a 3yr spand he went 3-8 in the playoffs while missing it entirely one of the those yrs before they got Garnett. Bryants 3yr span after he lost Shaq he missed the playoffs then went 4-8 the 2 yrs he did go.

Melo's last 2 playoff yrs in Denver when he got Billups

He averaged 29pts, 456fg%, 840ft%, 9.1ftattempts, 340/3pt%, 7rebs, 3.8ast, 1.8stls, 2.6to

His last yr in the playoffs for Denver
30.7pts, 464fg%, 877ft%, 9.5 ftattempts, 316 3pt%, 8.5rebs, 4ast, 2stls, 3.5tos

According to you guys own stat logic Melo was great in the playoffs his last 2 yrs in Denver. And other then fg% was incredible in the plaoffs vs Boston. Vs Miami we were overmatched and they had the best collections of swamming athletes in the NBA. In comparison Durant who is better then Anthony with WAY more help last playoffs while more effiecient in shooting I believe lost out to Anthony in every other statistical category when facing Miami in the finals while also winning the same amount of games that Anhthony did vs the champs.

You really can't analyze scoring efficiency in a sample of fewer than 1000 shots. If you look at each individual post-season, you're going to have wildly inconsistent data.

Quick question Bonn, based on the stats for his last yr in Denver which he lost in the first rd. Do you believe he lost that series because he was inefficient?

46.4 fg% average
49.1 eFG% below average
56.4 TS% average
32% USG with 3.3 assists and 3.5 turnovers-- not good at all
15% assist rate = 85% isolation scoring

outside of really mediocre scoring efficiency and overall selfishness he surely was not defending and making hustle plays.

these stats really demonstrate how melo is really a zero-sum player. his 30.7 point average for that series is the definition of empty.

I don't know, NYNY. I don't remember the series. I could take a look at all the player's stats. A .564 TS is pretty good though. I doubt that is what lost the series although it's not enough to carry a team if the rest of the players are struggling.

"pretty good" is barely better than mediocre, and on the context of lionizing him as an elite scorer, ie his specialty, it has never been good enough so that we can regard him as more than a zero-sum player... especially since he doesn't playmake for others, work on hockey assists, defend at an elite level, or make hustle plays. all of this actually pulls his teammates down in the team game.

his only really great game was game 1, as you can find in one of my subsequent posts.

so far this season, he is excelling at these other aspects of the game, though his TS% remains at his career average. that needs to improve no matter what. and the reason is that i see this metric as gaining geometrically not arithmetically. that is, there is a greater difference between 58 and 59 than there is between 55 and 56.

http://www.hoopsstats.com/basketball/fantasy/nba/new-york-knicks/players/iman-shumpert/rankings/12/20/298

holfresh wrote:

knickscity wrote:

tkf wrote:

knickscity wrote:

tkf wrote:

knickscity wrote:

tkf wrote:

knickscity wrote:But he only got two points though.....

that is fine, I thought it was 3, but he got 2, so that means he got 2 3rd place vote, that is damn good for a rookie wingman.. especially since a lot of these votings are reputation based to some degree

It was a three horse race, stop trying to prop up nothing.

Without first place votes you can't win....he was not in the running for anything.

are you that dense!???? who said winning.. You called him overrated, I said he was considered by many around the league to be one of the best perimter defenders in his first year... looking at his finish in dpoy, it suggest that you are wrong..

stop trying to sidebar... you are just wrong... he is not overrated.. no one said he was great, the kid is very good and was just a rookie.. you are failing here!!!

Yeah i said he was overrated, Kobe rode first team for years with zero stats to back it up.

When i see him defend Wade effectively then i'll give him props, not before.

Shumpert gambles way too much on defense, he's good, not great, has a long way to go....and definitely has to recover first.

funny people were citing the loss of shumpert and his defense as to why we got killed by miami..

ok, so you admit he is good.. No kidding, pretty much what I said! but he has the potential to be elite....

and let me ask, what stats do wing players supposed to have to back up their ability to defend?

The eye test dude....you don't need stats to see it.

Shumpert gambles alot, his defense is not great, and honestly he isn't locking up anyone that is a threat to score.

You really think he could have slowed down Wade, Wade had been lighting him up all season.

BTW Fields was on Wade the majority of the time....getting beat back door.

Shumpert guarded Chalmers....a non threat.

I though the team missed Lin more, lack of a pg was the reasoning around here.

Are u really saying that Shumpert isn't a good defender??

holfresh wrote:He is considered one of the league's top perimeter defenders...U saw him shut down Calderon...I've seen him defend Bron and Wade well...I have seen his defense change a game...How is that overrated??

No i haven't seen him guard neither LeBron or Wade well, not at all.

just look at the link....no way to dispute his ranking amongst his position.

http://www.hoopsstats.com/basketball/fantasy/nba/new-york-knicks/players/iman-shumpert/rankings/12/20/298

knickscity wrote:

holfresh wrote:He is considered one of the league's top perimeter defenders...U saw him shut down Calderon...I've seen him defend Bron and Wade well...I have seen his defense change a game...How is that overrated??

Calderon is not really a threat to score, he just wanted to torch Lin.

No i haven't seen him guard neither LeBron or Wade well, not at all.

just look at the link....no way to dispute his ranking amongst his position.

http://www.hoopsstats.com/basketball/fantasy/nba/new-york-knicks/players/iman-shumpert/rankings/12/20/298

What is this ranking??..How can u quantify defense???..U just see it, no??..Are there stats for what Chandler does??..
By the way, I have seen Shrump defend Wade and Bron well..He stripped Wade on consecutive plays...Have you ever seen anyone do that to Wade??

dacash wrote:WOW
i mean really,this team doing so good guys here argue over nothing

Thus the existence of a forum...

knickscity wrote:

holfresh wrote:

knickscity wrote:

holfresh wrote:He is considered one of the league's top perimeter defenders...U saw him shut down Calderon...I've seen him defend Bron and Wade well...I have seen his defense change a game...How is that overrated??

Calderon is not really a threat to score, he just wanted to torch Lin.

No i haven't seen him guard neither LeBron or Wade well, not at all.

just look at the link....no way to dispute his ranking amongst his position.

http://www.hoopsstats.com/basketball/fantasy/nba/new-york-knicks/players/iman-shumpert/rankings/12/20/298

What is this ranking??..How can u quantify defense???..U just see it, no??..Are there stats for what Chandler does??..
By the way, I have seen Shrump defend Wade and Bron well..He stripped Wade on consecutive plays...Have you ever seen anyone do that to Wade??

All I'm saying is overrated....you stated he defended guys well then i show you those same guys post even higher stats than what they normally do against him.

He isn't great, he's good, but he isn't smart. The smart defenders don't gamble.

Lin leading the league in steals, you think he's a great defender?

It's all subjective, and trust me, even as a knicks fan, i'll never over-glorify anyone.

All i care for is the win, the players don't even have to have names on the back.

U can't always look at stats...Stat's can be a very misleading indicator of what a player is doing or how good he is at a certain task...You brought up Lin..You know he isn't a good defender but stats says otherwise...Shrump is a very good defender...He is young and was playing on a team going no where...So yes, he gambles...If he played for SA, I think he would play differently, he would have to play smart...I think he will play smart with this current team...But he is a defensive talent...His defense has changed games...When your defense change games on the perimeter, that's special...

knickscity wrote:

holfresh wrote:

knickscity wrote:

holfresh wrote:

knickscity wrote:

holfresh wrote:He is considered one of the league's top perimeter defenders...U saw him shut down Calderon...I've seen him defend Bron and Wade well...I have seen his defense change a game...How is that overrated??

Calderon is not really a threat to score, he just wanted to torch Lin.

No i haven't seen him guard neither LeBron or Wade well, not at all.

just look at the link....no way to dispute his ranking amongst his position.

http://www.hoopsstats.com/basketball/fantasy/nba/new-york-knicks/players/iman-shumpert/rankings/12/20/298

What is this ranking??..How can u quantify defense???..U just see it, no??..Are there stats for what Chandler does??..
By the way, I have seen Shrump defend Wade and Bron well..He stripped Wade on consecutive plays...Have you ever seen anyone do that to Wade??

All I'm saying is overrated....you stated he defended guys well then i show you those same guys post even higher stats than what they normally do against him.

He isn't great, he's good, but he isn't smart. The smart defenders don't gamble.

Lin leading the league in steals, you think he's a great defender?

It's all subjective, and trust me, even as a knicks fan, i'll never over-glorify anyone.

All i care for is the win, the players don't even have to have names on the back.

U can't always look at stats...Stat's can be a very misleading indicator of what a player is doing or how good he is at a certain task...You brought up Lin..You know he isn't a good defender but stats says otherwise...Shrump is a very good defender...He is young and was playing on a team going no where...So yes, he gambles...If he played for SA, I think he would play differently, he would have to play smart...I think he will play smart with this current team...But he is a defensive talent...His defense has changed games...When your defense change games on the perimeter, that's special...

He's good, i've said that, i see a guy who could be very good if he played smarter.

He is better than just good...He is very good...