dk7th wrote:lebron
durant
chris paul
pierce
rondo
bryant
marc gasol
pau gasol
dirk
garnett
wade
dwight howard
tim duncan
hibbert
love
deron williams

a case can be made for any of these players being "better" than carmelo anthony in terms of overall impact.

tkf's list will probably be different but not by much i'll bet.

Well according to ESPN it's breaking down as

lebron(will crack the top 10)
durant(will crack the top 10)
chris paul(will crack the top 10)

pierce(ranked 29th somewhat below Carmelo)

rondo(ranked 12th ahead of Carmelo)
bryant(will crack the top 10)

marc gasol(ranked 24th right behind Carmelo)

pau gasol(ranked 15th ahead of Carmelo)
dirk(ranked 11th ahead of Carmelo)

garnett(ranked 21 right below Carmelo)

wade(will crack the top 10)
dwight howard(will crack the top 10)

tim duncan(ranked 27th somewhat below Carmelo)
hibbert(ranked 35th a little way behind Carmelo)

love(will crack the top 10)
deron williams(will crack the top 10)

So you were only 1 off from this list for having Top 10 players ranked ahead of Melo. There were 3 others ranked ahead of Melo, and the other 5 players in bold happened to not be ranked too far away, with exception to Hibbert.

3G4G wrote:

dk7th wrote:lebron
durant
chris paul
pierce
rondo
bryant
marc gasol
pau gasol
dirk
garnett
wade
dwight howard
tim duncan
hibbert
love
deron williams

a case can be made for any of these players being "better" than carmelo anthony in terms of overall impact.

tkf's list will probably be different but not by much i'll bet.

Well according to ESPN it's breaking down as

lebron(will crack the top 10)
durant(will crack the top 10)
chris paul(will crack the top 10)

pierce(ranked 29th somewhat below Carmelo)

rondo(ranked 12th ahead of Carmelo)
bryant(will crack the top 10)

marc gasol(ranked 24th right behind Carmelo)

pau gasol(ranked 15th ahead of Carmelo)
dirk(ranked 11th ahead of Carmelo)

garnett(ranked 21 right below Carmelo)

wade(will crack the top 10)
dwight howard(will crack the top 10)

tim duncan(ranked 27th somewhat below Carmelo)
hibbert(ranked 35th a little way behind Carmelo)

love(will crack the top 10)
deron williams(will crack the top 10)

So you were only 1 off from this list for having 10 players ranked ahead of Melo. There were 3 ranked ahead of Melo, and the other 5 players in bold happened to not be ranked too far away, with exception to Hibbert.

espn is practicing ageism here. duncan, pierce, and garnett all were central to their teams making the conference finals last season. with results like that they should all be considered top 20 players, displacing players like irving and iguodala. all are at least as effective (i did not say "good") as lamarcus aldridge, ranked 20th.

edit: winning in the playoffs and how far you go in the playoffs has to factor in there if we are going to be fair.

NUPE wrote:My list for top 15 (ignoring injuries, ignoring team accomplishments and accounting for all around ball skills):

1. LeBron
2. D. Wade
3. Chris Paul(Still the best pg in a pg driven league)
4. Derrick Rose (A great player that typically shows steady improvement every year)
5. Deron Williams (Last year was putrid for him but I will give him the benefit of the doubt)
6. Kevin Durant (Ranked here because he is a great scorer that does little else)
7. Dirk Novitzki (A stud, all around skills, massively efficient, solid defender, raises stats in playoffs)
8. Kobe Bryant (Declining and inefficient but he stays in top ten due to all around skills and clutch factor)
9. Russell Westbrook (Somewhat erratic and a bit of a ball hog so ranked below other top tier pg)
10. Kevin Love (Love his offensive game but plays no D and gets little to no blocks / steals so he gets ranked at ten)
11. Paul Pierce (Really a great all around player that is efficient. He can literally do it all and is the best player on Celts)
12. Dwight Howard (Inability to close games out / questionable post game)
13. Carmelo Anthony (If he were more efficient I'd increase his ranking to within the top ten. Essentially a less efficient Durant)
14. Chris Bosh (Guy has greatly neutered his game to fit in with Heat. A great all around skill set for his position)
15. Pau Gasol (Essentially the same as Bosh)

Between 9 to 13 or so there is a lot of room to change the order.

In regards to Melo, I believe a team can win a championship with him as their best player if that team has an adequate point guard, good support players and plays great defense. I think the Knicks could compete in the East but it would require 1) Melo to play well all year; 2) Amar'e to get back to putting up at least 20 ppg which he should be able to do if he simply re-gains his mid-range jump shot; 3) continued improvement on defense; and 4) Kidd / Felton to play at least at an average level.

NUPE THAT is a pretty fair analysis, the only this I dissagree with you on is this..

I believe a team can win a championship with him as their best player if that team has an adequate point guard, good support players and plays great defense.

he had that with denver and they could not get past the lakers... I just don't think you can win with him as your best player... In a confrence with wade and lebron and the celtics, you are going to have to defend if you are melo and he just doesn't..

NUPE wrote:

tkf wrote:

NUPE wrote:My list for top 15 (ignoring injuries, ignoring team accomplishments and accounting for all around ball skills):

1. LeBron
2. D. Wade
3. Chris Paul(Still the best pg in a pg driven league)
4. Derrick Rose (A great player that typically shows steady improvement every year)
5. Deron Williams (Last year was putrid for him but I will give him the benefit of the doubt)
6. Kevin Durant (Ranked here because he is a great scorer that does little else)
7. Dirk Novitzki (A stud, all around skills, massively efficient, solid defender, raises stats in playoffs)
8. Kobe Bryant (Declining and inefficient but he stays in top ten due to all around skills and clutch factor)
9. Russell Westbrook (Somewhat erratic and a bit of a ball hog so ranked below other top tier pg)
10. Kevin Love (Love his offensive game but plays no D and gets little to no blocks / steals so he gets ranked at ten)
11. Paul Pierce (Really a great all around player that is efficient. He can literally do it all and is the best player on Celts)
12. Dwight Howard (Inability to close games out / questionable post game)
13. Carmelo Anthony (If he were more efficient I'd increase his ranking to within the top ten. Essentially a less efficient Durant)
14. Chris Bosh (Guy has greatly neutered his game to fit in with Heat. A great all around skill set for his position)
15. Pau Gasol (Essentially the same as Bosh)

Between 9 to 13 or so there is a lot of room to change the order.

In regards to Melo, I believe a team can win a championship with him as their best player if that team has an adequate point guard, good support players and plays great defense. I think the Knicks could compete in the East but it would require 1) Melo to play well all year; 2) Amar'e to get back to putting up at least 20 ppg which he should be able to do if he simply re-gains his mid-range jump shot; 3) continued improvement on defense; and 4) Kidd / Felton to play at least at an average level.

NUPE THAT is a pretty fair analysis, the only this I dissagree with you on is this..

I believe a team can win a championship with him as their best player if that team has an adequate point guard, good support players and plays great defense.

he had that with denver and they could not get past the lakers... I just don't think you can win with him as your best player... In a confrence with wade and lebron and the celtics, you are going to have to defend if you are melo and he just doesn't..

Was Denver better than those Laker's teams? When did Melo. ever lose in the playoffs where his team was considered the favorite in a series? You are going to claim I am making excuses for Melo. However, I am just being fair and taking all facts into consideration.

You sound like all the people that cried you can't win with Dirk as your best player!!!
You sound like all the people that cried you can't win with LeBron as your best player!!!
You sound like all the people that cried Wade / Durant / Bosh don't mesh and will never work!!!
You sound like all the people that cried Paul Pierce is a career loser!!!!!!!!
You sound like all the people that cried KG is a career loser!!!!

My point being, let things play out and don't be so quick to judge and write a player off. It's a team game and honing in on Melo and ignoring all other things is just a bad approach for evaluating any player. Melo is one of the best players in the league and 99% of teams in the league would gladly have him on their squad. Knicks fans always kill their lead player and have done so for many many years. The grass is always greener with some other stud. As far as I can say, a Melo led team has always made the playoffs which can't be said for many of the players ranked ahead of Melo in my list. If Amar'e can put up his career average and the team plays D then the Knicks will be extremely competitive.

take a deep breath man, i said your list was pretty fair, I just didn't agree with your view on melo..

You sound like all the people that cried you can't win with Dirk as your best player!!!
You sound like all the people that cried you can't win with LeBron as your best player!!!
You sound like all the people that cried Wade / Durant / Bosh don't mesh and will never work!!!
You sound like all the people that cried Paul Pierce is a career loser!!!!!!!!
You sound like all the people that cried KG is a career loser!!!!

come on, there were not many people saying you could not win with lebron as your best player.. and guess what, wade, lebron and bosh really don't mesh, but they won on pure talent and the will of lebron....

The difference here nupe is that this is season 10 for carmelo, most if not all of the criticism is justified...

a Melo led team has always made the playoffs which can't be said for many of the players ranked ahead of Melo in my list.

and they have been eliminated in the first round 90% of the time. Just means the team will make the playoffs and never win...

Knicks fans always kill their lead player and have done so for many many years.

nah, criticized, but never killed to this point, and honestly there is a good reason why carmelo receives such criticism..

The grass is always greener with some other stud.

true, which is what I was saying before the melo trade, the difference is, we know what melo is , which is why all of the tension and dissension... and somtimes the grass is really greener on the other side because... it just is.... I will take the lebron grass and wade grass, and kobe grass over the melo grass anyday, heck add chris paul, durant and a host of other players....

Melo is one of the best players in the league and 99% of teams in the league would gladly have him on their squad.

manu ginobili isn't considered one of the best players in the league and I am sure 100% of the teams in the league would kill to have him...

what is your point here.. and for the record most people outside of knickland consistently rank him out of the top 10.. I think all of the best player in the league talk needs to stop... one of the better players would be more fair.. one of the best just isn't acurate.

the question is how they get him... 99% of the teams in the league would not acquire carmelo the way we did under our then circumstances.

If Amar'e can put up his career average and the team plays D then the Knicks will be extremely competitive.

no doubt the knicks should be competitive.. but we were competitive before the trade.. we made the trade to be more than competitive.. that is no longer good enough.. the stakes have been raised...

My point being, let things play out and don't be so quick to judge and write a player off.

I have no choice but to let it play out.. but heck you are telling me not to judge, but you are judging yourself, you said this :
I believe a team can win a championship with him as their best player if that team has an adequate point guard, good support players and plays great defense.

well that is a judgment, I just didn't agree with your judgment... You say don't write him off, I say don't be so quick to write him in.. and guess what.. there is more evidence to support my beliefs than to believe he will lead the knicks to a championship....

1. James
2. Durant
3. Howard
4. Bryant
5. Paul
6. Rose
7. Wade
8. Anthony
9. Williams
10. Westbrook
11. Love
12. Rondo
13. Nowitzki
14. Griffin
15. Parker

Melo has been to the playoffs every year of his career as the best play on his team. How can anyone put a guy like Kevin Love, who has never been to the playoffs at all, and Westbrook, who has never been the best player on a playoff team, ahead of Melo? I rate players based on their ability to lead a team to success. By success i mean playoffs or better. Melo has done it consistantly every year. Love is great but isn't a top 10 player until he gets to the playoffs at least once. I don't have the confidence Love can be the best player on a championship team right now, but i do with Anthony, Williams, and everyone ranked ahead of them.

3G4G wrote:

Rondo is in the Top 15 without question and the Celtics go as far as he takes them, which means it's debatable if Peirce is the best Celtic at this point. If Dwight Howard is healthy and not trying to be a wishy washy sap he's most certainly in the Top 10(like High Top 10)

If I was ranking these players Melo for me would have been right about where you have him. I had him at 14. You could make a case to drop more and I think ESPN accurately ranked him at 17. It just goes to show how overrated he is in these neck of the woods. Can he improve on his overall player status? Yes he can if he evolves but usually 10yr players don't.

The one time the Celts have won it all recently they were led by Paul Pierce. Paul Pierce is also the Celt's closer. Rondo is a great pg but his inability to shoot ft's and totally awful jump shot detract from him greatly. That is my opinion.

I think ESPN has players like Blake Griffin ahead of Melo which is absurd.

NUPE wrote:

3G4G wrote:

Rondo is in the Top 15 without question and the Celtics go as far as he takes them, which means it's debatable if Peirce is the best Celtic at this point. If Dwight Howard is healthy and not trying to be a wishy washy sap he's most certainly in the Top 10(like High Top 10)

If I was ranking these players Melo for me would have been right about where you have him. I had him at 14. You could make a case to drop more and I think ESPN accurately ranked him at 17. It just goes to show how overrated he is in these neck of the woods. Can he improve on his overall player status? Yes he can if he evolves but usually 10yr players don't.

The one time the Celts have won it all recently they were led by Paul Pierce. Paul Pierce is also the Celt's closer. Rondo is a great pg but his inability to shoot ft's and totally awful jump shot detract from him greatly. That is my opinion.

I think ESPN has players like Blake Griffin ahead of Melo which is absurd.

The Celtics won it all 4yrs ago and not in case you're stuck back in 2008...since that time Rondo has closed the gap and surpassed Pierce sorry. The same year Garnett won DPOY so you can go different ways that season.

Rondo's ability to distribute no matter who he's playing with along with his rebounding and defense is what makes him truly a UNIQUE player. There's no point guard like Rondo in this league. You do realize he's a triple double threat like almost every night correct? Pierce is still a heckuva player and I'd trade Melo for him straight up.

fishmike wrote:so I have another flavor of Melo koolaid from this. If your not favored to win, its ok not to.

Well, in the NBA playoffs, the best team wins a large large portion of the time. So, losing to a clearly better team is understandable to any logical and reasonable person.

I don't see how anyone can bash Melo for losing to Shaq/Kobe or Duncan/Manu/Parker. Melo's teams never really stood a real chance. This is reasonable analysis. When Melo starts losing to bum teams or inferior teams then I will be the first to kill him for it.

NUPE wrote:

dk7th wrote:

Knixkik wrote:Top 15 right now i believe are:

1. James
2. Durant
3. Howard
4. Bryant
5. Paul
6. Rose
7. Wade
8. Anthony
9. Williams
10. Westbrook
11. Love
12. Rondo
13. Nowitzki
14. Griffin
15. Parker

Melo has been to the playoffs every year of his career as the best play on his team. How can anyone put a guy like Kevin Love, who has never been to the playoffs at all, and Westbrook, who has never been the best player on a playoff team, ahead of Melo? I rate players based on their ability to lead a team to success. By success i mean playoffs or better. Melo has done it consistantly every year. Love is great but isn't a top 10 player until he gets to the playoffs at least once. I don't have the confidence Love can be the best player on a championship team right now, but i do with Anthony, Williams, and everyone ranked ahead of them.

lol as if the 1st round means ANYTHING. give me a break. this is the stern NBA, characterized by league bloat and dilution of talent. the 1st round is merely a showcase for mediocrity and an opportunity to add revenue. i am sick of this "melo has made it to the 1st round every year" crap. the playoffs really only start counting in the second round.

These are the same Knicks fans that cried for nearly a decade about not making the playoffs. Now the first round does not count. SMH.

the first round hasn't really counted since the last expansion around 20-25 years ago. there are at least 6-10 too many teams for competition to be genuine.

nobody said the knick fanbase isn't a desperate lot. but desperation distorts values. and that dovetails perfectly with dolan's asinine record of brutal decision making. it's really the perfect storm.

face it we will all be pleased if not happy to make the second round and make it competitive. anything short of that and most fans are going to be crying in their beer, wondering where it all went wrong.

NUPE wrote:

tkf wrote:he had that with denver and they could not get past the lakers... I just don't think you can win with him as your best player... In a confrence with wade and lebron and the celtics, you are going to have to defend if you are melo and he just doesn't..

The Lakers had a better roster and those Nuggets teams were not great defensively. Those Nuggets teams were average defensively at very best and focused on trying to outscore everyone which typically does not lead to playoff success. These are facts. Please tell me an instance where the Nuggets lost in the playoffs and were favored!

tkf wrote:come on, there were not many people saying you could not win with lebron as your best player.. and guess what, wade, lebron and bosh really don't mesh, but they won on pure talent and the will of lebron....

The difference here nupe is that this is season 10 for carmelo, most if not all of the criticism is justified...

Who cares if it is Melo's 10th season. He is only 28. How many seasons did it take for Pierce, Allen, KG, Dirk, Drexler, Olajuwon to win their first title. Why is it that you are measuring success solely by a title to begin with?

tkf wrote:manu ginobili isn't considered one of the best players in the league and I am sure 100% of the teams in the league would kill to have him...

The difference being that no one would attempt to build a team around Manu (he is old and often injured) but there are GM's that would build a team around Melo and MANY GM's were trying to do so at the time the Knicks acquired Melo. This is a fact.

tkf wrote:
what is your point here.. and for the record most people outside of knickland consistently rank him out of the top 10.. I think all of the best player in the league talk needs to stop... one of the better players would be more fair.. one of the best just isn't acurate.

How many players are there in the NBA, like 300? Melo can be reasonably ranked anywhere from 7ish to 15ish out of 300ish total NBA players. That easily makes him one of the best in the NBA. He is one of the few players that makes the playoffs every year and has had no major injuries to boot. There is a lot to be said for that.

tkf wrote:no doubt the knicks should be competitive.. but we were competitive before the trade.. we made the trade to be more than competitive.. that is no longer good enough.. the stakes have been raised...

The Knicks were two games over .500 before the Melo trade and were HIGHLY inconsistent. This perception that the Knicks were competitive prior to the Melo trade is a farce and false. The team today is better than the team pre-melo by a large margin. This is not even debatable.

I liked Wilson Chandler and Gallinari a ton but neither were, are or ever will be as good as Melo. Gallo, has all the skills in the world but has never put them together on a nightly or even weekly basis.
I was lukewarm on Mozgov and Tyson Chandler is heads and shoulders superior to Mozgov.
We have re-retained Felton.
We also have added J.R. Smith, Shumpert, Camby, Kidd and Brewer.
We still have Amare who will hopefully regain his jumper this year.

The current team is superior to the Pre-Melo team at virtually everything. It boggles my mind that people still complain about the Melo trade as if we are worse off today.

NUPE it is not a fact that this current team is better because they haven't played a game yet, you hope that they would be better, but we were supposed to be better from day 1, when we got carmelo.... why wern't we?

I liked Wilson Chandler and Gallinari a ton but neither were, are or ever will be as good as Melo.

but this is where this reasoning fails.... melo isn't as good as 16 other players according to ESPN, and even by your account I am sure you have at least 9 players ahead of him, so where does that leave us? if your reasoning is, you make the trade because melo is better, not because he will make the knicks better then it fails.. and guess what, so far the knicks have not been better.. so what does carmelo being better than gallo or chandler have to do with anything.. collectively he is not better... or is the record of our perspective teams just a mirage?

This perception that the Knicks were competitive prior to the Melo trade is a farce and false. The team today is better than the team pre-melo by a large margin. This is not even debatable.

NUPE, if that team wasn't competitive then what were we since the melo trade? horrible?

We also have added J.R. Smith, Shumpert, Camby, Kidd and Brewer.

walsh added shumpert, I guess that was his parting gift to this franchise, so i assume we would have had shump anyway..

JR smith is a mental midget, kidd was a superstar but he is well past his prime, and I like kidd..novak is a nice shooter.. and Brewer is trash...

this is nothing to brag about bro...

The current team is superior to the Pre-Melo team at virtually everything.

that is great nupe.. where is your proof? I heard this song and dance before.. right after the melo trade

How many players are there in the NBA, like 300? Melo can be reasonably ranked anywhere from 7ish to 15ish out of 300ish total NBA players.

that makes him better than most of the lot, but not one of the best... we all know the NBA has a few elite players.. he is not one of them.. and the gap between the elite and guys like melo are as wide as the gap between melo and guys we consider to be " good" players..

The difference being that no one would attempt to build a team around Manu (he is old and often injured) but there are GM's that would build a team around

no smart Gm builds around him.. but it is funny according to most around here, he needs a garnett or Ray allen, HOF level playing garnett and Allen... therefore wouldn't the premise be to build around them, not melo... this argument tends to shift in so many directions.. the truth is, you wouldn't build around carmelo anymore than you would ginobili..and honestly I could make an argument why you would build around manu before melo... and believe me, it would make a lot of sense...