Bonn1997 wrote:

FoeDiddy wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

CashMoney wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

CashMoney wrote:Straw man?! "No what I'm saying is that assist numbers do not 100% dictate if a player is a good passer or not" - FIXED

OK, I'll play along. What dictates if a player is a good passer or not?

Since no one said they do 100% dictate it, yes it is a straw man. You don't need a 100% perfect measure to determine if someone is a good passer or not. If he's a good passer, he's not gonna have a 1:1 assist turnover ratio. It will be much better. It's hard to be objective with players on your team. Can you name some wing players on other teams with 1:1 assist turnover ratios that are good passers?

Lebron James, 1.86 assist to turover ratio last season. Kevin Durant .93 last season. Melo was at 1.36.

How about answering my question? What dictates what makes a player a good passer or not?

I thought I did answer your question but maybe I'm just not understanding what you mean by "dictate." Again, assist turnover ratio is as good a measure as any. Durant is not a good passer. He is a very efficient scorer though. Lebron's ratio is not even remotely close to 1:1.

Sure if the ratio was based on turnovers of "bad" pass attempts to actual assists. It does not factor turnovers on charges, having a ball stolen from the player in the post or on a drive, traveling, back court violation, 3 seconds, 8 seconds, etc.

Based on your logic Joe Johnson, Rodney Stuckey and Gordon Hayward are better passers than Lebron. In fact, Lebron is only a slughtly better passer than Jason Terry, Evan Turner and the Gasol brothers.

FoeDiddy wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

FoeDiddy wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

CashMoney wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

CashMoney wrote:Straw man?! "No what I'm saying is that assist numbers do not 100% dictate if a player is a good passer or not" - FIXED

OK, I'll play along. What dictates if a player is a good passer or not?

Since no one said they do 100% dictate it, yes it is a straw man. You don't need a 100% perfect measure to determine if someone is a good passer or not. If he's a good passer, he's not gonna have a 1:1 assist turnover ratio. It will be much better. It's hard to be objective with players on your team. Can you name some wing players on other teams with 1:1 assist turnover ratios that are good passers?

Lebron James, 1.86 assist to turover ratio last season. Kevin Durant .93 last season. Melo was at 1.36.

How about answering my question? What dictates what makes a player a good passer or not?

I thought I did answer your question but maybe I'm just not understanding what you mean by "dictate." Again, assist turnover ratio is as good a measure as any. Durant is not a good passer. He is a very efficient scorer though. Lebron's ratio is not even remotely close to 1:1.

I wonder what his 1.36 ranks among Small Forwards? that would be the best measure to see if he is a good passer for his position. comparing him to Lebron, the best talent in the league is unfair. How does he compare against others playing his same position. He's not the point guard correct?

6th out of the 7 who qualify
http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/player/_/stat/assists/sort/assistTurnoverRatio/position/small-forwards

Obviously that's only 7 players. If you look at all (rather than only qualified) SFs, it's 34 out 77.
http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/player/_/stat/assists/sort/assistTurnoverRatio/qualified/false/position/small-forwards

Basically in a career year as far as A/TO ratio goes, he was average.

So if only 7 qualify can we conclude that their are only 7 Small Forwards in the league who have enough usage to even be considered. 30 teams and only 7 Small Forwards in the league who even qualify to be considered good passers. How does that make him average among Small Forwards?

FoeDiddy wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

FoeDiddy wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

FoeDiddy wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

CashMoney wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

CashMoney wrote:Straw man?! "No what I'm saying is that assist numbers do not 100% dictate if a player is a good passer or not" - FIXED

OK, I'll play along. What dictates if a player is a good passer or not?

Since no one said they do 100% dictate it, yes it is a straw man. You don't need a 100% perfect measure to determine if someone is a good passer or not. If he's a good passer, he's not gonna have a 1:1 assist turnover ratio. It will be much better. It's hard to be objective with players on your team. Can you name some wing players on other teams with 1:1 assist turnover ratios that are good passers?

Lebron James, 1.86 assist to turover ratio last season. Kevin Durant .93 last season. Melo was at 1.36.

How about answering my question? What dictates what makes a player a good passer or not?

I thought I did answer your question but maybe I'm just not understanding what you mean by "dictate." Again, assist turnover ratio is as good a measure as any. Durant is not a good passer. He is a very efficient scorer though. Lebron's ratio is not even remotely close to 1:1.

I wonder what his 1.36 ranks among Small Forwards? that would be the best measure to see if he is a good passer for his position. comparing him to Lebron, the best talent in the league is unfair. How does he compare against others playing his same position. He's not the point guard correct?

6th out of the 7 who qualify
http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/player/_/stat/assists/sort/assistTurnoverRatio/position/small-forwards

Obviously that's only 7 players. If you look at all (rather than only qualified) SFs, it's 34 out 77.
http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/player/_/stat/assists/sort/assistTurnoverRatio/qualified/false/position/small-forwards

Basically in a career year as far as A/TO ratio goes, he was average.

So if only 7 qualify can we conclude that their are only 7 Small Forwards in the league who have enough usage to even be considered. 30 teams and only 7 Small Forwards in the league who even qualify to be considered good passers. How does that make him average among Small Forwards?

That's why I provided the other ranking too. It aint rocket science. Keep in mind that people saying he's a good passer have not provided *any* kind of evidence at all for the claim.

We didn't have to..you provided it for us. It's okay to be wrong sometimes...we won't kill you.

Bonn1997 wrote:

FoeDiddy wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

FoeDiddy wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

FoeDiddy wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

CashMoney wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

CashMoney wrote:Straw man?! "No what I'm saying is that assist numbers do not 100% dictate if a player is a good passer or not" - FIXED

OK, I'll play along. What dictates if a player is a good passer or not?

Since no one said they do 100% dictate it, yes it is a straw man. You don't need a 100% perfect measure to determine if someone is a good passer or not. If he's a good passer, he's not gonna have a 1:1 assist turnover ratio. It will be much better. It's hard to be objective with players on your team. Can you name some wing players on other teams with 1:1 assist turnover ratios that are good passers?

Lebron James, 1.86 assist to turover ratio last season. Kevin Durant .93 last season. Melo was at 1.36.

How about answering my question? What dictates what makes a player a good passer or not?

I thought I did answer your question but maybe I'm just not understanding what you mean by "dictate." Again, assist turnover ratio is as good a measure as any. Durant is not a good passer. He is a very efficient scorer though. Lebron's ratio is not even remotely close to 1:1.

I wonder what his 1.36 ranks among Small Forwards? that would be the best measure to see if he is a good passer for his position. comparing him to Lebron, the best talent in the league is unfair. How does he compare against others playing his same position. He's not the point guard correct?

6th out of the 7 who qualify
http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/player/_/stat/assists/sort/assistTurnoverRatio/position/small-forwards

Obviously that's only 7 players. If you look at all (rather than only qualified) SFs, it's 34 out 77.
http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/player/_/stat/assists/sort/assistTurnoverRatio/qualified/false/position/small-forwards

Basically in a career year as far as A/TO ratio goes, he was average.

So if only 7 qualify can we conclude that their are only 7 Small Forwards in the league who have enough usage to even be considered. 30 teams and only 7 Small Forwards in the league who even qualify to be considered good passers. How does that make him average among Small Forwards?

That's why I provided the other ranking too. It aint rocket science. Keep in mind that people saying he's a good passer have not provided *any* kind of evidence at all for the claim.

We didn't have to..you provided it for us. It's okay to be wrong sometimes...we won't kill you.

huh?

The stats are right in front of you to prove that Melo is actually a good passer. Lin A/TO ratio is 1.71 as a point guard. From the Small Forward position you have a guy with 200 assist with a A/TO ratio of 1.39. That's if you wanna use that as a basis for good passing which to me is a bit misleading.

Lets move to another stat which would be assist per 48 minutes which he ranks 7th amongst Small forwards with Lebron, Iggy, hedo, Paul Pierce, Tracy McGrady and Terrence Williams being ahead of him. If going by players who actually play significant minutes only 4 Small forwards are ahead of him in the whole league in terms of passing. That coming from a pure scorer is pretty good. Is Melo a great passer no, but good yes.

Then we can go old school and use the eyeball test. Does Melo make bad passes in games that you watch? My opinion is he doesn't. He makes accurate passes when he does pass. Yes he sometimes can go into hero mode but what superstar doesn't.

FoeDiddy wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

FoeDiddy wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

FoeDiddy wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

FoeDiddy wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

CashMoney wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

CashMoney wrote:Straw man?! "No what I'm saying is that assist numbers do not 100% dictate if a player is a good passer or not" - FIXED

OK, I'll play along. What dictates if a player is a good passer or not?

Since no one said they do 100% dictate it, yes it is a straw man. You don't need a 100% perfect measure to determine if someone is a good passer or not. If he's a good passer, he's not gonna have a 1:1 assist turnover ratio. It will be much better. It's hard to be objective with players on your team. Can you name some wing players on other teams with 1:1 assist turnover ratios that are good passers?

Lebron James, 1.86 assist to turover ratio last season. Kevin Durant .93 last season. Melo was at 1.36.

How about answering my question? What dictates what makes a player a good passer or not?

I thought I did answer your question but maybe I'm just not understanding what you mean by "dictate." Again, assist turnover ratio is as good a measure as any. Durant is not a good passer. He is a very efficient scorer though. Lebron's ratio is not even remotely close to 1:1.

I wonder what his 1.36 ranks among Small Forwards? that would be the best measure to see if he is a good passer for his position. comparing him to Lebron, the best talent in the league is unfair. How does he compare against others playing his same position. He's not the point guard correct?

6th out of the 7 who qualify
http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/player/_/stat/assists/sort/assistTurnoverRatio/position/small-forwards

Obviously that's only 7 players. If you look at all (rather than only qualified) SFs, it's 34 out 77.
http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/player/_/stat/assists/sort/assistTurnoverRatio/qualified/false/position/small-forwards

Basically in a career year as far as A/TO ratio goes, he was average.

So if only 7 qualify can we conclude that their are only 7 Small Forwards in the league who have enough usage to even be considered. 30 teams and only 7 Small Forwards in the league who even qualify to be considered good passers. How does that make him average among Small Forwards?

That's why I provided the other ranking too. It aint rocket science. Keep in mind that people saying he's a good passer have not provided *any* kind of evidence at all for the claim.

We didn't have to..you provided it for us. It's okay to be wrong sometimes...we won't kill you.

huh?

The stats are right in front of you to prove that Melo is actually a good passer. Lin A/TO ratio is 1.71 as a point guard. From the Small Forward position you have a guy with 200 assist with a A/TO ratio of 1.39. That's if you wanna use that as a basis for good passing which to me is a bit misleading.

Lets move to another stat which would be assist per 48 minutes which he ranks 7th amongst Small forwards with Lebron, Iggy, hedo, Paul Pierce, Tracy McGrady and Terrence Williams being ahead of him. If going by players who actually play significant minutes only 4 Small forwards are ahead of him in the whole league in terms of passing. That coming from a pure scorer is pretty good. Is Melo a great passer no, but good yes.

Then we can go old school and use the eyeball test. Does Melo make bad passes in games that you watch? My opinion is he doesn't. He makes accurate passes when he does pass. Yes he sometimes can go into hero mode but what superstar doesn't.

Did you say eyeball test? YES!

CashMoney wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

The stats are right in front of you to prove that Melo is actually a good passer. Lin A/TO ratio is 1.71 as a point guard. From the Small Forward position you have a guy with 200 assist with a A/TO ratio of 1.39. That's if you wanna use that as a basis for good passing which to me is a bit misleading.

That's misleading but ignoring turnovers altogether (your approach) isn't? You need to go with the best available stat, which is assist to turnover ratio, since it includes both good and bad passes OR find a better stat like assists to passing turnovers. Providing a worse stat (just assists) doesn't improve our analysis.

Does Melo make bad passes in games that you watch?

Yes, he makes almost as many bad as good passes. You are also being quite generous by evaluating Melo based on a career year rather than his career average. The high assist numbers are almost entirely from the time under MDA.

Seriously, Is Andre Andre Iguodala a better passer than Steve Nash, Kidd and Rose?

Kidd and Nash have better career A/TO ratios than Miller. Miller probably is a slightly better passer than Rose.

Is Andre Andre Iguodala a better passer than Steve Nash, Kidd and Rose??

See sentence immediately above your reply

mrKnickShot wrote:Just curious, if you pass the ball to a player with fumbleitis, who gets the turnover?

CashMoney wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

CashMoney wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

The stats are right in front of you to prove that Melo is actually a good passer. Lin A/TO ratio is 1.71 as a point guard. From the Small Forward position you have a guy with 200 assist with a A/TO ratio of 1.39. That's if you wanna use that as a basis for good passing which to me is a bit misleading.

That's misleading but ignoring turnovers altogether (your approach) isn't? You need to go with the best available stat, which is assist to turnover ratio, since it includes both good and bad passes OR find a better stat like assists to passing turnovers. Providing a worse stat (just assists) doesn't improve our analysis.

Does Melo make bad passes in games that you watch?

Yes, he makes almost as many bad as good passes. You are also being quite generous by evaluating Melo based on a career year rather than his career average. The high assist numbers are almost entirely from the time under MDA.

Seriously, Is Andre Andre Iguodala a better passer than Steve Nash, Kidd and Rose?

Kidd and Nash have better career A/TO ratios than Miller. Miller probably is a slightly better passer than Rose.

Is Andre Andre Iguodala a better passer than Steve Nash, Kidd and Rose??

See sentence immediately above your reply

What does Andre Miller have to do with Andre Iguodala?

CashMoney wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

CashMoney wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

CashMoney wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

The stats are right in front of you to prove that Melo is actually a good passer. Lin A/TO ratio is 1.71 as a point guard. From the Small Forward position you have a guy with 200 assist with a A/TO ratio of 1.39. That's if you wanna use that as a basis for good passing which to me is a bit misleading.

That's misleading but ignoring turnovers altogether (your approach) isn't? You need to go with the best available stat, which is assist to turnover ratio, since it includes both good and bad passes OR find a better stat like assists to passing turnovers. Providing a worse stat (just assists) doesn't improve our analysis.

Does Melo make bad passes in games that you watch?

Yes, he makes almost as many bad as good passes. You are also being quite generous by evaluating Melo based on a career year rather than his career average. The high assist numbers are almost entirely from the time under MDA.

Seriously, Is Andre Andre Iguodala a better passer than Steve Nash, Kidd and Rose?

Kidd and Nash have better career A/TO ratios than Miller. Miller probably is a slightly better passer than Rose.

Is Andre Andre Iguodala a better passer than Steve Nash, Kidd and Rose??

See sentence immediately above your reply

What does Andre Miller have to do with Andre Iguodala?

My bad. I didn't realize your post was about Andre Andre Iguoudala. No way. His career A/TO ratio is not even close to those guys'.

So then he was just a better passer last year?

What's next? A month by month analysis? I'd never look at one year in isolation for a veteran.

Bonn1997 wrote:

mrKnickShot wrote:Just curious, if you pass the ball to a player with fumbleitis, who gets the turnover?

It's up to the score-keeper to determine.

Tyson and Amare don't have great hands when it comes to catching passes - I wonder how many of those turnovers go against the passer.

I think Melo is an excellent passer. JVG said in game that he sees things and can make passes that most forwards can't even dream about. However, he often believes that his shot will be better than the one he would pass to, so he decides to shoot himself. It would be great if he can tweak that mentality as well as have the confidence in the players that he passes to.

I truly hope that the criticism that he has gotten this off season will open his eyes and he will look to me more of a facilitator.

mrKnickShot wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

mrKnickShot wrote:Just curious, if you pass the ball to a player with fumbleitis, who gets the turnover?

It's up to the score-keeper to determine.

Tyson and Amare don't have great hands when it comes to catching passes - I wonder how many of those turnovers go against the passer.

I think Melo is an excellent passer. JVG said in game that he sees things and can make passes that most forwards can't even dream about. However, he often believes that his shot will be better than the one he would pass to, so he decides to shoot himself. It would be great if he can tweak that mentality as well as have the confidence in the players that he passes to.

I truly hope that the criticism that he has gotten this off season will open his eyes and he will look to me more of a facilitator.