oohah wrote:

scoshin wrote:I never understood the argument that "we were the only team that was willing to pay Amare $100M, and that's why he chose us."

No, we were the only team that was willing to commit to Amare before LeBron made his decision.

Chicago and NJ didn't have quite enough space for two maxes, without clearing more contracts.

If Amare was still on the market after LBJ chose Miami, Chicago and NJ both would've been calling up Amare. Hell, maybe even Cleveland and Toronto would have pursued him, dangling their large TPE's.

The reality is, when July 1st hit, Amare flew to NY, didn't meet with other teams, went to Broadway shows, a Yankees game, Dolan's BBQ, then signed on Monday. He had meetings scheduled with the Nets and Bulls on Tues and Wed but cancelled them. To me, that's the sign of someone who had NY as his primary destination in mind. Even when we were working a S&T with Phoenix after the fact, Amare didn't push for a 6th year...he even took a lower starting salary to accommodate future acquisitions.

In truth, I think Amare would've signed with us regardless if we had room for LeBron as well. I remember him commenting about how he wanted to be the man/leader of his team last season. However, having that space for two maxes allowed us to reciprocate our commitment to Amare before Chicago or NJ or another team made him an offer.

Rampant Speculation.

oohah

And claiming that Amare only signed cause we offered him $100M isn't speculation?

Get over yourself.

scoshin wrote:And claiming that Amare only signed cause we offered him $100M isn't speculation?

Get over yourself.

Oh, so you admit you were just speculating then? I appreciate that.

The report is published. Phoenix offered a max contract but required that Stoudemire play a certain number of minutes due to his injury history.

I would Google it for you but apparently you have the internet, so make a little effort, why don't you? I am tired of schooling lazy "fans".

Actually, here you go, it took me 2 minutes: http://probasketballtalk.nbcsports.com/2010/07/02/report-amare-stoudemire-new-york-knicks-have-the-framework-of-a-deal-set/

Now tell me who is speculating, you or me? - Answer: YOU

oohah

oohah wrote:

scoshin wrote:I never understood the argument that "we were the only team that was willing to pay Amare $100M, and that's why he chose us."

No, we were the only team that was willing to commit to Amare before LeBron made his decision.

Chicago and NJ didn't have quite enough space for two maxes, without clearing more contracts.

If Amare was still on the market after LBJ chose Miami, Chicago and NJ both would've been calling up Amare. Hell, maybe even Cleveland and Toronto would have pursued him, dangling their large TPE's.

The reality is, when July 1st hit, Amare flew to NY, didn't meet with other teams, went to Broadway shows, a Yankees game, Dolan's BBQ, then signed on Monday. He had meetings scheduled with the Nets and Bulls on Tues and Wed but cancelled them. To me, that's the sign of someone who had NY as his primary destination in mind. Even when we were working a S&T with Phoenix after the fact, Amare didn't push for a 6th year...he even took a lower starting salary to accommodate future acquisitions.

In truth, I think Amare would've signed with us regardless if we had room for LeBron as well. I remember him commenting about how he wanted to be the man/leader of his team last season. However, having that space for two maxes allowed us to reciprocate our commitment to Amare before Chicago or NJ or another team made him an offer.

Rampant Speculation.

oohah

yeah, because amar'e doesn't seem to be enjoying the NY spotlight AT ALL. he loves the spotlight - it's obvious he wanted to be here.

are you still bitter that channing frye isn't an all-star?

oohah wrote:

loweyecue wrote:
Well I don't think Denver would give a rat's ass about Jordan Hill and some stupid swap with a team that has Amare + Melo and is a lock for the playoffs.

Just like in our previous discussions, you keep focusing on Jordan Hill, because he is the least useful part of that trade. The worst part of Jordan hill is that the Knicks picked him, a raw power forward while a phenom star point guard was on the board and the Knicks had a huge hole at PG as well as 14 power forwards under contract.

Here is why the trade was bad:
A) The Knicks NEVER USED THE CAP SPACE THEY GAINED, SO THE TRADE WAS FOR NAUGHT.
B the Knicks WOULD HAVE HAD THAT SPACE ANYWAY + THEIR ASSETS TO USE IN A TRADE NOW, FOR EXAMPLE, FOR CARMELO ANTHONY.
C) The Knicks gave up picks THAT COULD BE USED TO OBTAIN CARMELO ANTHONY.
D) THE Knicks TRADED AN EXPIRING THAT CAN BE USED AS AN ASSET TO OBTAIN CARMELO ANTHONY.

***

But then you are stating that somehow giving up all those assets give the Knicks a better shot at Carmelo? (Bolded above) Huh? Less assets make a better shot at Anthony though every report states the opposite. How does that work again? So I am not sure what you are missing here, or maybe I am missing what you are saying, so please explain it to me. If the Knicks get Carmelo, it is DESPITE the Houston trade, not because of it.

***

I think you are saying this: no matter what, the Hill/Jeffries/Picks trade was good, even though it was only for immediate cap relief which the Knicks never go to make use of.

I am trying to explain to you that they would have that cap space + assets right now without the trade. It would have been okay to make the trade except they gave up too many assets to whiff on LeBron. Do you understand what I am saying now?

oohah

oohah is right on this one. The bottom line is we got Ray Felton for the assets we gave up. Those same assets and full cap space left open wouldve made a Carmelo trade happen already.

BRIGGS wrote:

oohah wrote:

loweyecue wrote:
Well I don't think Denver would give a rat's ass about Jordan Hill and some stupid swap with a team that has Amare + Melo and is a lock for the playoffs.

Just like in our previous discussions, you keep focusing on Jordan Hill, because he is the least useful part of that trade. The worst part of Jordan hill is that the Knicks picked him, a raw power forward while a phenom star point guard was on the board and the Knicks had a huge hole at PG as well as 14 power forwards under contract.

Here is why the trade was bad:
A) The Knicks NEVER USED THE CAP SPACE THEY GAINED, SO THE TRADE WAS FOR NAUGHT.
B the Knicks WOULD HAVE HAD THAT SPACE ANYWAY + THEIR ASSETS TO USE IN A TRADE NOW, FOR EXAMPLE, FOR CARMELO ANTHONY.
C) The Knicks gave up picks THAT COULD BE USED TO OBTAIN CARMELO ANTHONY.
D) THE Knicks TRADED AN EXPIRING THAT CAN BE USED AS AN ASSET TO OBTAIN CARMELO ANTHONY.

***

But then you are stating that somehow giving up all those assets give the Knicks a better shot at Carmelo? (Bolded above) Huh? Less assets make a better shot at Anthony though every report states the opposite. How does that work again? So I am not sure what you are missing here, or maybe I am missing what you are saying, so please explain it to me. If the Knicks get Carmelo, it is DESPITE the Houston trade, not because of it.

***

I think you are saying this: no matter what, the Hill/Jeffries/Picks trade was good, even though it was only for immediate cap relief which the Knicks never go to make use of.

I am trying to explain to you that they would have that cap space + assets right now without the trade. It would have been okay to make the trade except they gave up too many assets to whiff on LeBron. Do you understand what I am saying now?

oohah

oohah is right on this one. The bottom line is we got Ray Felton for the assets we gave up. Those same assets and full cap space left open wouldve made a Carmelo trade happen already.

Ray Felton, Moz and the freedom to be in the LeBron/Wade game.

Olbrannon wrote:

martin wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:

oohah wrote:

loweyecue wrote:
Well I don't think Denver would give a rat's ass about Jordan Hill and some stupid swap with a team that has Amare + Melo and is a lock for the playoffs.

Just like in our previous discussions, you keep focusing on Jordan Hill, because he is the least useful part of that trade. The worst part of Jordan hill is that the Knicks picked him, a raw power forward while a phenom star point guard was on the board and the Knicks had a huge hole at PG as well as 14 power forwards under contract.

Here is why the trade was bad:
A) The Knicks NEVER USED THE CAP SPACE THEY GAINED, SO THE TRADE WAS FOR NAUGHT.
B the Knicks WOULD HAVE HAD THAT SPACE ANYWAY + THEIR ASSETS TO USE IN A TRADE NOW, FOR EXAMPLE, FOR CARMELO ANTHONY.
C) The Knicks gave up picks THAT COULD BE USED TO OBTAIN CARMELO ANTHONY.
D) THE Knicks TRADED AN EXPIRING THAT CAN BE USED AS AN ASSET TO OBTAIN CARMELO ANTHONY.

***

But then you are stating that somehow giving up all those assets give the Knicks a better shot at Carmelo? (Bolded above) Huh? Less assets make a better shot at Anthony though every report states the opposite. How does that work again? So I am not sure what you are missing here, or maybe I am missing what you are saying, so please explain it to me. If the Knicks get Carmelo, it is DESPITE the Houston trade, not because of it.

***

I think you are saying this: no matter what, the Hill/Jeffries/Picks trade was good, even though it was only for immediate cap relief which the Knicks never go to make use of.

I am trying to explain to you that they would have that cap space + assets right now without the trade. It would have been okay to make the trade except they gave up too many assets to whiff on LeBron. Do you understand what I am saying now?

oohah

oohah is right on this one. The bottom line is we got Ray Felton for the assets we gave up. Those same assets and full cap space left open wouldve made a Carmelo trade happen already.

Ray Felton, Moz and the freedom to be in the LeBron/Wade game.

add Roger Mason to the list there.

GS trade was all for DLee. and doesn't count here. What we got back was a chance to try for 2 which missed
and A starting PG w/ playoff experience, a possible NBA starting center and another SG/PG possibility. Steep
price but it might play out. Whose the oldest Felton at 26.?

Not like those first round picks pan out regularly.

David Lee's rights would of had to be renounced without the Jeffries trade

martin wrote:PHO only offered Amare a 3 year deal. He didn't want the minutes clause for the last 2. That has nothing to do with your "only signed cause we offered" statement. He certainly moved on from PHO to another team. Got the offer and destination he wanted.

The way I read it, and have read it, the Suns were willing to give a deal that was about the same as New York's, with the stipulation that he plays a certain number of minutes to guarantee years 4 and 5.

Now in regard to "only signed because we offered". That is not what I said. I said the Knicks were the only team who were going to guarantee 100 million dollars no strings attached (Educated Speculation based on education of the Knicks history and the LeBron situation as it pertained to the Knicks).

Amare Stoudemire is not stupid, so he jumped on it, as nobody else was likely to do the same and signings happened in a flurry, which would have cost him guaranteed money. I am sure he likes New York. I like New York. Sprewell liked New York. Everybody likes new York, especially when they are rich!

oohah

scoshin wrote:You're speculating as to Amare's mindset based solely on the fact that we offered more guaranteed years than Phoenix.

No I am speculating, in a much more educated manner than you are, that the Knicks bid against themselves like they always do.

I guess if I say that Amare Stoudemire would have to be an idiot not to take absolutely guaranteed money thrown in his face when no other team did the same, vs. non-guaranteed money, that is speculation too, but I am willing to go out on that limb.

Now get over me if you can.

oohah

TMS wrote:

fishmike wrote:

TMS wrote:

grillco wrote:Just more crap to sully the works. If Melo ends up in Jersey, Walsh's plan can be officially stamped a failure.

i'm sure someone will come up with a way to spin it as a success... remember, it doesn't matter if we miss out on all the good players, as long as we're flexible... flexibility wins championships!

why are you guys assuming the Knicks can trade for Melo and simply arent? I dont get it. Walsh said point blank they dont want our players. How is it a failure that we cant execute on a trade when the team with the player we are trying to aquire doesnt want what the Knicks are offering?

there are rumors flying around all over the place that the Knicks are discussing a trade for Melo as we speak... so assuming those rumors have some kind of truth to them, i've made it clear that i think this team would be stupid to pass up on an opportunity to get him just because fans like you think offering up someone like Gallo or AR to try & get Melo is a bad idea... obviously if the rumors are true & Donnie is engaging in these talks to get Melo, we can pretty much assume that he's willing to give up at least 1 of those guys along w/other assets to obtain him... i don't think these are unreasonable assumptions at this point... but you apparently think anyone who's willing to trade away AR or Gallo to go after Melo is wrong... that pretty much means you think Donnie's wrong too... but rumors are rumors... i never said it was a given that the Knicks can trade for Melo... i've said everytime that IF there is an opportunity to get Melo in a trade, then the Knicks need to explore that opportunity & make an honest offer to get him... none of these ridiculous lowball offers of Wilson, Curry & 2nd round picks like i've heard some guys making around here.

whether DEN is interested in our players or not, the fact that the Knicks are engaging the Nuggets to try & work out a deal here means either Gallo or AR, or both, will be involved in the deal, if not going to Denver outright, then going someplace else in order to obtain other assets that the Nuggets ARE interested in... you can close your eyes & plug your ears & not lend any credence to any of these rumors if you like, & if it makes you feel better you can keep railing about how we should remain patient & just sign Melo in free agency this summer & not give up any assets in a trade for him... knock yourself out... my contention has & always has been that if we don't end up with 2 max level talented players on this roster after the summer of 2010, then Donnie's plan would have been a failure... we whiffed badly on Lebron & Wade... we landed Amare... right now how can you possibly consider Donnie's plan a success if we don't land another superstar player? do you honestly feel AR or Gallo are going to turn into that 2nd superstar player at this point? & even if one of them do, how long are we supposed to wait for that to happen? another 3 years when Amare turns 30? why not go after a superstar NOW while Amare's 27 & has a few years of elite level basketball left in his body? to me that seems like the more sensible plan of action... i'm sick & tired of waiting for potential this & potential that every year... it's time we started seeing some results on the court & started winning some damn games... i didn't wait all this time & watch my favorite franchise give away future assets just so we could end up with Ray Felton, Anthony Randolph & Roger Mason Jr. to play alongside our big ticket guy... we need another big ticket guy & right now Melo seems like the most realistic option that fits that bill.

From a talent/BB perspective I would pull the plug on a trade today. If I could get good pick for AR, Chandler or Gallo, then send that pick + Chandler + Curry + AR/Gallo for Melo I would do that today. Go to war with Amare/Melo/Felton/Mos and start Walker at the SG. Douglas, Fields and Turiaf are you bench. Thats a real good team. Who wouldnt sign up for that plan B?

That has never been my arguement. Nobody would be wrong for suggesting thats a good move. Melo is an elite scorer and I have always thought he's a winner. His D is weak and he passes about as much as Al Harrington but what he does he does great.

My arguement is why do we have to trade our good young rotation players for a guy who wants to come here anyway when the Knicks have max cap space at the end of the year. It just seems like we are paying for Melo twice.

I also dont see that group as good enough to win a title.

If we get Melo fine. I'm down with that.

If we want to win a title you need to have some luck. The luck for us would be for at least one guy AR/Gallo/Mos/Douglas to become a bigtime player. A close to all star guy. THEN you sign Melo in the offseason and you have a ton of size and depth backing up your Amare/Melo tandem.

Thats what I would like to see, and I'm willing to live with the downside if it doesnt happen, just like I was willing to live with the downside of the TMac trade if we didnt get 2 max guys.

That said, I would love all the NY youngin's to develop into all-stars and take the league by storm with Amare leading the assault, I just don't see it happening, especially not quickly.

AnubisADL wrote:Dudes are arguing why Amare came here? We all know he came because the Knicks were the only team "at the time" to offer him max guaranteed salary. Pretty much a no brainer for Amare.

He's gets to live in NYC and make max cash for the next 5 yrs. Sweet deal if you ask me.

I dont think the Net's or the Bulls would have given Amare the max with those knees. Those two teams front offices are really strict when it comes to handing out deals. I remember NJ letting Kenyon Martin go because they didnt like his knees.

Different management. I don't think the Nets were looking to come away from this off season having made NO significant acquisitions. That 12-70 record really hurt them, me thinks. Even players who may have been interested from the potential to go the NJ and move to Brooklyn were scared away by the all that stellar youthful "talent" that barely got to double digits in the win column. The new owner is a question mark as well, even with Jay-Z's buyin.

If they could have gotten Amare they would have. Yes the guaranteed $$$ was the main reason Amare came to NYC, but the love the organization showed by checking with LeCon's people about whether he viewed Amare as a suitable teammate and the coach couldn't have hurt either.