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Guys I'm Officially Done With Nate
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TMS
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2/13/2009  1:55 PM
Posted by BRIGGS:
Posted by fishmike:

Nate can blow by most defenders with the dribble and starting from a standstill. When Nate can really nail that pullup 12-15 footer than made Allan Houston so nasty Nate will be a star player.

Last night's game aside I think the Knicks should more Duhon, who's value is higher than it will ever be. Play Nate at PG rest of the year and look to resign him. Trading Lee and Duhon would be hard for Knick fans to stomach but your selling HIGH and could really get some bigtime prospects or high lottery picks back.

I agree with you 100% if I could get back Aldridge but I dont think Portland would do it. I will NOT trade Lee for anything less than a really terrific package. On the other hadn sell Duhon high--he will have to be renounced most likely anyway and then we wont have the loot to resign him. Sell high on Duhon

the other day you said Lee was untouchable... this is making my head spin
After 7 years & 40K+ posts, banned by martin for calling Nalod a 'moron'. Awesome.
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TMS
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2/13/2009  1:58 PM
Posted by martin:
Posted by KnicksSince88:

Nate played better last night, in his first start at PG of the season, than Chris Duhon has ever played at any level at any point in his life. And Nates not even a PG. Duhon never had a night like that in the NBA, he never had a night like that at Duke. He might have had a game like that in high school. Maybe. I stress maybe. D'Antoni can sure get a lot out of that position, if we even had an average PG he would put up big numbers here. Instead we have a below average scrub in Duhon who's numbers get elevated to merely "respectable". D'Antoni is like steroids for PGs

Next to DLee, I think most would agree that this "below average scrub" is the team MVP.

I would agree that Nate had better stats than Duhon and probably could do it over and over, but I am not sure if he is the better PG right now.

i hope Nate gets as much exposure as possible til the trade deadline so we can trade him for a nice package... in fact my guess is that's part of Donnie's plan at this point.
After 7 years & 40K+ posts, banned by martin for calling Nalod a 'moron'. Awesome.
KnicksSince88
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2/13/2009  3:21 PM
Posted by fishmike:
Posted by KnicksSince88:

I dont think Duhon has any trade value. How many teams is he going to step into and IMPROVE their PG situation. 3/4 of the league has either a better starting PG than Duhon, or a young PG with far more upside than Duhon who won't have their growth stunted for someone remarkably average. In essence the market for him would only really consist of teams looking for backups or teams who had a season ending injury at the position. These teams didn't fall over themselves to add him this offseason and his 13 PER rating isn't doing anything to raise his value. These teams are well aware of the things that go into him being able to put up the modest numbers hes putting up this year

[Edited by - knickssince88 on 02-12-2009 4:31 PM]
26 years old, cap friendly contract, 12.5 points 8 asists, 40% from down town, good rebounder, good defender takes good shots, heady player and a leader.

Yea.. who would want a player like that???

About 25 of the 30 NBA teams either have a starting PG better than Duhon or a young kid with upside to be far better than Duhon, and would have no interest in acquiring a vastly mediocre guy like Duhon to stunt that players growth and playing time

I dont care about his 12 and 8 in a D'Antoni offense. The guy is a below average starting PG. Hes putting up a 13 efficiency rating, he plays a ton of minutes on a team who plays at a fast pace and his numbers (which aren't anything to write home about at that) are vastly inflated

Again, these teams had a crack at him this offseason and knew everything about Duhon they needed to know. Only one team was interested in making him a starter and they only offered two years. After 300 NBA games + 4 years at a big program like Duke, you know what someone is. All the GMs clearly made their opinions known, and they weren't interested in him as their starter
Andrew
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2/13/2009  3:50 PM
You are basing a lot of this on efficiency ratings which may or may not be a good indicator of what you want out of a PG. Is Nate a better PG than Nash because he has a higher efficiency rating?
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Andrew
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2/13/2009  3:53 PM
Another thing to consider is the ratings are stat based and do not take into account position. Nate plays minutes at the 1 and 2....mostly at the 2 I think. There is no break down that separates the stats he puts up at either position.
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KnicksSince88
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2/13/2009  4:17 PM
Im really not basing much of it off EFF ranking, just using it to counter the point about 12 and 8. Truth is we play a fast pace and he plays a ton of minutes in this pace, it inflates his numbers.

I stand by what i said above though. Do you disagree with the statement that about 25 teams across the league either have a PG better than Duhon, or a young kid with far more upside than Duhon who won't be demoted to make way for an average player. The point being the market for him in trades will be small. There aren't many teams falling over themselves to add him. The league didn't have much interest last offseason, and after about 300 NBA games playing nearly 30 minutes a night, on top of 4 years at a program like Duke, you have a pretty good feel for what a guy is. Obviously, the GMs in the league aren't all that impressed. The one team who would give him a starting job was only willing to offer him 2 years.
NineMike2Whiskey
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2/13/2009  9:34 PM
Posted by KnicksSince88:

Im really not basing much of it off EFF ranking, just using it to counter the point about 12 and 8. Truth is we play a fast pace and he plays a ton of minutes in this pace, it inflates his numbers.

I stand by what i said above though. Do you disagree with the statement that about 25 teams across the league either have a PG better than Duhon, or a young kid with far more upside than Duhon who won't be demoted to make way for an average player. The point being the market for him in trades will be small. There aren't many teams falling over themselves to add him. The league didn't have much interest last offseason, and after about 300 NBA games playing nearly 30 minutes a night, on top of 4 years at a program like Duke, you have a pretty good feel for what a guy is. Obviously, the GMs in the league aren't all that impressed. The one team who would give him a starting job was only willing to offer him 2 years.

I think he's a perfect fit for the Knicks, stats regardless. Runs the team well, has a decent D, strokes the 3 when required, runs the pick and roll nicely with Lee and can penetrate the lane when there's a chance. I dont mind keeping him past 2010 provided his contract stays reasonable. 25 other teams may have a better PG but i think Duhon is solid enough to man the position for us and we can concentrate of filling our other bigger holes ast SG and C....this is all provided his contract stays reasonable.
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2/15/2009  11:28 AM
Amazing

Anyone who has ever stepped on a basketball court knows how high the rim is. To position 6'10 Dwight Howard in front of that goal and then jump OVER him is not simply superhuman and flashy

but a testament to hard work (despite years of taking abuse) and determination

Those physical skills are not bestowed at birth, they are earned.

Even though Nate danced it was not simply for entertainment purposes that drew attention to himself, it was a brief celebration that allowed him to share his joy with the audience. It was not the overdone, just crazy Nate but a slightly more mature Nate that we watched last night and the week prior.

A Nate with more responsibility.

No matter how you slice it 30 polnts, 13 assists, 8 rebounds and 6 steals is no joke.

How can anyone be officially done with Nate when the best is yet to come?
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2/15/2009  1:25 PM
Posted by Andrew:

Another thing to consider is the ratings are stat based and do not take into account position. Nate plays minutes at the 1 and 2....mostly at the 2 I think. There is no break down that separates the stats he puts up at either position.

True, The closest you can get to it is to look at each box score and see how many minutes Duhon has gotten vs. Nate in a game and assume Nate is mostly at the two, because you Know Duhon is point every time he's out there. And from what I can see, Nate has been at the two the majority of time.
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Martice
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2/15/2009  1:30 PM
Mr. Earl. I don't get it either. Yet some here are ready to bestow all-star to the growing list of names for Gallo. Not saying that he won't be but Nate's upside is still growing and has not been reached yet. What we are seeing in Nate is a guy who plays bigger than some guys much taller than himself. We as Knick fans have seen plenty of taller guys, who don't have the skill, athleticism, heart and drive that Nate has despite being taller and stronger.

As I said in a previous post, many have heard of the "short man complex" but trust me when I say the "tall man complex" is alive and well.

The last thing any tall person wants to be outdone by is a shorter or smaller person. I would normally take taller DB's out of their game by just making a few plays that might catch a oooh or aahh. After that, he abandons his game plan to get back at me and that's what I want him to do. It is that complex that doesn't allow Kenny Smith to acknowledge a great dunk even when he see's it front row and center. He had to actually think about what it is that he just saw. His intitial reaction was a negative one because he wanted Dwight to win obviously.

Nate's abilities are not common in this league and in fact, his particular skill set is exclusive to him at this point. This is why when some doubt it's only because they haven't seen anything like him before. You can't prepare for Nate while playing another team. You don't have a shorter guy on your team that can mimic his speed, strength and jumping ability and also his heart and tenacity while practicing.

Yeah to all you guys who are fixated on height and Nate's lack there of, he may give up some inches on the defensive side of the ball but he is a load to deal with on the offensive side of the ball. 4th quarter and you gotta chase this dude around? LOL!!

Tall man complex is alive and kickin in the world and yesterday's performance by Nate turned the light on the commentators who stumbled and bumbled for words when they saw a 5ft 8inch guy jump over a 6'10" man with broad shoulders to boot.

Go Nate.
Cosmic
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2/15/2009  1:33 PM
I like Nate. I hope we can keep him and I hope he can continue to mature. For a while there when he had the slump everything that's a negative from him really came to light and it made you wonder why you'd ever invest in such a player. Yet when he's on target he's simply unstoppable. I don't think he can run a team, I don't think he can carry a team, I think his rightful place is off the bench as a spark plug. Now maybe when we have a really good team a guy like Nate off the bench would be a tremendous asset. Yet today we don't have a good team so he's being looked at someone that has to save us and that's probably not fair.

I've bounced back and forth on him because let's face it when he's up he's great but when he's down he's REALLY BAD, like Crawful bad, but as said it might be an environment thing, and when he's not one of our best three players then he could potentially be an asset.

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martin
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2/15/2009  2:00 PM
Posted by Martice:

Mr. Earl. I don't get it either. Yet some here are ready to bestow all-star to the growing list of names for Gallo.

No they are not. When you start a post with something like the above, it's hard to read anything after it.

You want to make a point? Feel free to use the quote button and take some users right in context.
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misterearl
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2/15/2009  2:07 PM
"I don't think he can run a team"

Cosmic - Those 13 assists with one one turnover were not a mirage.

"I don't think he can carry a team,"

Cosmic - There are only two players who can carry a team. Kobe and Lebron. Period.

The rest are role players
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misterearl
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2/15/2009  2:15 PM
Martice - the night Danilo Gallinari has a stat line of 30/9/13/6 I will personally buy him a turkey and swiss on rye at The Stage Deli.
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Cosmic
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2/15/2009  2:19 PM
Posted by misterearl:

"I don't think he can run a team"

Cosmic - Those 13 assists with one one turnover were not a mirage.

"I don't think he can carry a team,"

Cosmic - There are only two players who can carry a team. Kobe and Lebron. Period.

The rest are role players

It was one game, Earl, what about the other times he's been tasked to run point and we got blown out over the years? He's not a facilitator. You'll see that if he has to continue to start at PG if Duhon is still hurting.

Also, narrowing players that can carry a team down to two, is just a way of trying to say "Well, 440 players CANT carry a team so why does it matter that Nate Can't?"

Bad argument, IMO... and you can do that for anyone. "Well, half the league can't play defense either so it doesn't matter that Lee can't!" "QRich shoots 38 percent but so do 150 other players so why does it matter?"

...and on and on down the slippery slope of pretending one player's short comings are of no consequence because other players share the same short comings.

So, well, with that logic, we would have been fine to keep Crawful and his 40% shooting, and load our team up with other 40% shooters, and when we get blown out every night, it's of no consequence because there's plenty of players that shoot 40%, so stop hatin' man!

...or, well, something, lol.

I don't really know where I'm going with all that but I will say that you saw Nate have one good game and you've quickly convinced yourself he's a superstar and a franchise cornerstone starting PG for the next decade and a half when it couldn't be farther from the truth.

If we had a good team, like let's say we were Orlando or Cleveland or Boston RIGHT NOW, and we add Nate Robinson off the bench instead of say Tony Allen or some other bum, then yes, Nate's a great asset to have!

When you're relying on him to be your #1 decision makers, #1 scorer, and at the least one of your top 3 players, guess what, you're not going to be a good team.

That's what we face with Nate. Can we have a good enough team where it's warranted to pay him to be a backup 6th man? Can it happen in time where we can afford it? If we strike out in 2010 is Nate a guy we want in our starting lineup? The answers to those questions aren't very positive right now and no one good game will change that.



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2/15/2009  2:32 PM
it seems like nate is a polarizing figure to the fanbase. the group is split between: i love the little guy or the guy's a sideshow/clown. inbetween the two extremes is a huge middle ground...

on a side ntoe, will retaining nate hurt the team's long term prospects? the answer should be no but considering this very risky 2010 plan, it seems retaining anybody would jeopardize it...
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2/15/2009  2:36 PM
EXaggerations R Us

I don't really know where I'm going with all that but I will say that you saw Nate have one good game and you've quickly convinced yourself he's a superstar and a franchise cornerstone starting PG for the next decade and a half when it couldn't be farther from the truth.

Cosmic - your quote was "I don't think he can run a team"

I think he is capable of running a team.

The other irrelevant trash you randomly threw in about Jamal Crawford, Nate being a "superstar" or "franchise cornerstone" was pure diversionary drivel.
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martin
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2/15/2009  2:38 PM
Posted by djsunyc:

it seems like nate is a polarizing figure to the fanbase. the group is split between: i love the little guy or the guy's a sideshow/clown. inbetween the two extremes is a huge middle ground...

on a side ntoe, will retaining nate hurt the team's long term prospects? the answer should be no but considering this very risky 2010 plan, it seems retaining anybody would jeopardize it...

I think there is a bunch of folks who think that Nate would be very nice off the bench. But Nate wants starter money - like $8M per and I have a feeling Donnie will trade his now very marketable sparkplug.
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misterearl
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2/15/2009  2:47 PM
Which Way Is Up?

djsunyc - Nate could be a perfect parable to describe the chasm between the Knicks fanbase that has patience for young players to develop over 3-4 years, and those who want more instant results.

The "sideshow clown" known as Nate has produced steadily improving stats each year he has been in the league.

Who are we to put an arbitrary ceiling on his maturation and development as a professional basketball player?
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Cosmic
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2/15/2009  2:48 PM
Posted by misterearl:

EXaggerations R Us

I don't really know where I'm going with all that but I will say that you saw Nate have one good game and you've quickly convinced yourself he's a superstar and a franchise cornerstone starting PG for the next decade and a half when it couldn't be farther from the truth.

Cosmic - your quote was "I don't think he can run a team"

I think he is capable of running a team.

The other irrelevant trash you randomly threw in about Jamal Crawford, Nate being a "superstar" or "franchise cornerstone" was pure diversionary drivel.

No need to get nasty Earl. You're suggesting he's a franchise cornerstone PG based off of one game and I am merely disputing that.

To try to base fact off of such an observation brings on a whole slew of irrational observations that can be made to seem logical and that was what I was doing with my post to try to illustrate where you were heading with your rationale.

I think you're off base and caught up in the moment of one good game and one entertaining evening at an AS event.
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