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Game Thread: Celtics dropping by. Upset by their antics - prove it and kick their Azzes.
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TMS
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1/5/2009  12:38 AM
Posted by martin:
Posted by TMS:
Posted by Ira:

I don't understand. We almost beat the Lakers in LA. We beat the Celtics convincingly at home. But we lose to the Timberwolves. The Knicks must play in some alternate universe.

Knicks teams have been doing that for the longest, even during the Starks/Ewing days... they always seem to play up to the level of their competition... in recent years they've obviously been a ton more inconsistent w/that but for the most part everytime this team rises up to play great basketball, it's often against the tougher teams in the NBA like DET, SA, UTA, BOS, LA, etc.

IMO it's lack of leadership from the best players on the team.

i can't put a finger on any reasons... even when we had leaders on this team like Oakley, Herb & Ewing, they were still doing it, tho not as often... maybe it's just the pressure of playing in NY? i dunno if i buy that either but i can't think of any other legitimate reason for it.
After 7 years & 40K+ posts, banned by martin for calling Nalod a 'moron'. Awesome.
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crzymdups
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1/5/2009  2:36 AM
Posted by TMS:
Posted by martin:
Posted by TMS:
Posted by Ira:

I don't understand. We almost beat the Lakers in LA. We beat the Celtics convincingly at home. But we lose to the Timberwolves. The Knicks must play in some alternate universe.

Knicks teams have been doing that for the longest, even during the Starks/Ewing days... they always seem to play up to the level of their competition... in recent years they've obviously been a ton more inconsistent w/that but for the most part everytime this team rises up to play great basketball, it's often against the tougher teams in the NBA like DET, SA, UTA, BOS, LA, etc.

IMO it's lack of leadership from the best players on the team.

i can't put a finger on any reasons... even when we had leaders on this team like Oakley, Herb & Ewing, they were still doing it, tho not as often... maybe it's just the pressure of playing in NY? i dunno if i buy that either but i can't think of any other legitimate reason for it.

every team has off games. for instance, the celtics tonight. you think celtics fans are thinking they got outplayed by the knicks? no, they're reacting like we did after we lost to the timberwolves. they're wondering how they can beat the cavs and lose to the knicks.

i thought the knicks played hard, but sloppy. the offense has lost its crispness and is a lot of one on one play. the celtics played pretty hard, but did not play well at all. this is why it's hard to win 70 games - you need to show up for a game in the middle of january after a holiday weekend and play well and the celts didn't. i don't think the knicks played that well. i would hardly call this the best effort of the season. i'm happy for the win, and i hope they can take some confidence from it, particularly wilson who played fantastically but i thought most everyone else looked sloppy. if people think jamal took bad shots the shots al takes should be outlawed. he is reckless and clumsy. dlee played really well. if we trade him to portland for a poo poo platter we will regret it. he is our best player by far.
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TMS
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1/5/2009  5:04 AM
Posted by crzymdups:
Posted by TMS:
Posted by martin:
Posted by TMS:
Posted by Ira:

I don't understand. We almost beat the Lakers in LA. We beat the Celtics convincingly at home. But we lose to the Timberwolves. The Knicks must play in some alternate universe.

Knicks teams have been doing that for the longest, even during the Starks/Ewing days... they always seem to play up to the level of their competition... in recent years they've obviously been a ton more inconsistent w/that but for the most part everytime this team rises up to play great basketball, it's often against the tougher teams in the NBA like DET, SA, UTA, BOS, LA, etc.

IMO it's lack of leadership from the best players on the team.

i can't put a finger on any reasons... even when we had leaders on this team like Oakley, Herb & Ewing, they were still doing it, tho not as often... maybe it's just the pressure of playing in NY? i dunno if i buy that either but i can't think of any other legitimate reason for it.

every team has off games. for instance, the celtics tonight. you think celtics fans are thinking they got outplayed by the knicks? no, they're reacting like we did after we lost to the timberwolves. they're wondering how they can beat the cavs and lose to the knicks.

i thought the knicks played hard, but sloppy. the offense has lost its crispness and is a lot of one on one play. the celtics played pretty hard, but did not play well at all. this is why it's hard to win 70 games - you need to show up for a game in the middle of january after a holiday weekend and play well and the celts didn't. i don't think the knicks played that well. i would hardly call this the best effort of the season. i'm happy for the win, and i hope they can take some confidence from it, particularly wilson who played fantastically but i thought most everyone else looked sloppy. if people think jamal took bad shots the shots al takes should be outlawed. he is reckless and clumsy. dlee played really well. if we trade him to portland for a poo poo platter we will regret it. he is our best player by far.

sure every team can have an off night & for sure Rondo & Allen were playing like crap all game long, but u gotta give the Knicks' defense a little credit for that too... it's not like those guys were just missing wide open shots all game long... Fishlips was giving Rondo problems w/his length all game long & i thought Duhon did a nice job staying w/Allen & not letting him get too many wide open looks... D Lee did a terrific job D-ing up KG in the post & not letting him establish position downlow... kept 1 of the best players in the game to 6 pts., that's big for him, we all know how he's been known as a bad defensive player but tonight he really mixed it up down there on defense... Paul Pierce was torching us all game long too & both Chandler & Harrington were big scoring points, so if u're gonna give players credit for having good games u also gotta give the other team credit when they hold other good players to limited points.

definitely agree about Al, he takes horrible shots at times just like Jamal did... both can be prolific scorers when they start heating up tho & both have value to a team looking for some offense... actually watching this game i thought Nate was the main reason why the Knicks started to go into 1 on 1 style play & away from the team concept that got them the lead like Clyde was talking about... he's another guy who can be a prolific scorer when he's on but also has horrible shot selection at times.

as for D Lee, i don't think anyone here advocates trading him away for crap... he's our best trade commodity because he's obviously the most desirable player on our roster... if we end up trading him then i'm sure Donnie will try & get max value for him in a trade... otherwise if he can somehow dump Eddy Curry's contract he'll open up the means to sign D Lee to an extension & still have the cap space to pursue 2 bigname FA's in 2010... i'm sure he's got a plan for D Lee & i trust in him to not trade him away for garbage... if he goes in some deal to bring Boris Diaw here w/o something great in the package coming our way, i'll be absolutely shocked.

[Edited by - TMS on 01-05-2009 02:17 AM]
After 7 years & 40K+ posts, banned by martin for calling Nalod a 'moron'. Awesome.
Pharzeone
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1/5/2009  5:57 AM
Posted by crzymdups:
Posted by TMS:
Posted by martin:
Posted by TMS:
Posted by Ira:

I don't understand. We almost beat the Lakers in LA. We beat the Celtics convincingly at home. But we lose to the Timberwolves. The Knicks must play in some alternate universe.

Knicks teams have been doing that for the longest, even during the Starks/Ewing days... they always seem to play up to the level of their competition... in recent years they've obviously been a ton more inconsistent w/that but for the most part everytime this team rises up to play great basketball, it's often against the tougher teams in the NBA like DET, SA, UTA, BOS, LA, etc.

IMO it's lack of leadership from the best players on the team.

i can't put a finger on any reasons... even when we had leaders on this team like Oakley, Herb & Ewing, they were still doing it, tho not as often... maybe it's just the pressure of playing in NY? i dunno if i buy that either but i can't think of any other legitimate reason for it.

every team has off games. for instance, the celtics tonight. you think celtics fans are thinking they got outplayed by the knicks? no, they're reacting like we did after we lost to the timberwolves. they're wondering how they can beat the cavs and lose to the knicks.

i thought the knicks played hard, but sloppy. the offense has lost its crispness and is a lot of one on one play. the celtics played pretty hard, but did not play well at all. this is why it's hard to win 70 games - you need to show up for a game in the middle of january after a holiday weekend and play well and the celts didn't. i don't think the knicks played that well. i would hardly call this the best effort of the season. i'm happy for the win, and i hope they can take some confidence from it, particularly wilson who played fantastically but i thought most everyone else looked sloppy. if people think jamal took bad shots the shots al takes should be outlawed. he is reckless and clumsy. dlee played really well. if we trade him to portland for a poo poo platter we will regret it. he is our best player by far.

Wow, that's a tough read. I think the Knicks simply out hustled the Celtics. As one Celtics fan said on another forum. The Celtics are a bully team when the opposing team out muscles them they run scare or if the opposing team is ignorant of the fact that they should be scared of the big three then it is trouble. D'Antoni came up with excellent gameplan in allowing Rondo and Allen to win the game for the Celtics on the outside but made sure to protect the paint. Chandler and Jeffries were 2 steps faster than the Celtics. To D'Antoni's credit the Knicks played half court while the Celtics were expecting motion offense from the 3 point line. Chandler and Harrington penetration broke the Celtics. Chandler confused the hell out of Garnett, he didn't know he was going to pull up for a jumper or penetrate on him. Lee's defense in the paint shouldn't be minimize either. One of the best defensive games I think I seen from him in his professional career. He stayed aggressive on the defensive end.
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nyk4ever
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1/5/2009  8:17 AM
Posted by Pharzeone:

Wow, that's a tough read. I think the Knicks simply out hustled the Celtics. As one Celtics fan said on another forum. The Celtics are a bully team when the opposing team out muscles them they run scare or if the opposing team is ignorant of the fact that they should be scared of the big three then it is trouble. D'Antoni came up with excellent gameplan in allowing Rondo and Allen to win the game for the Celtics on the outside but made sure to protect the paint. Chandler and Jeffries were 2 steps faster than the Celtics. To D'Antoni's credit the Knicks played half court while the Celtics were expecting motion offense from the 3 point line. Chandler and Harrington penetration broke the Celtics. Chandler confused the hell out of Garnett, he didn't know he was going to pull up for a jumper or penetrate on him. Lee's defense in the paint shouldn't be minimize either. One of the best defensive games I think I seen from him in his professional career. He stayed aggressive on the defensive end.

Good post Phar. It's great to see you give D'Antoni some kudos, since I know you are one of his toughest critics.

Last night D'Antoni showed us he has it in him, now we just want to see it more often..
"OMG - did we just go on a two-trade-wining-streak?" -SupremeCommander
crzymdups
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1/5/2009  10:24 AM
Posted by TMS:


sure every team can have an off night & for sure Rondo & Allen were playing like crap all game long, but u gotta give the Knicks' defense a little credit for that too... it's not like those guys were just missing wide open shots all game long... Fishlips was giving Rondo problems w/his length all game long & i thought Duhon did a nice job staying w/Allen & not letting him get too many wide open looks... D Lee did a terrific job D-ing up KG in the post & not letting him establish position downlow... kept 1 of the best players in the game to 6 pts., that's big for him, we all know how he's been known as a bad defensive player but tonight he really mixed it up down there on defense... Paul Pierce was torching us all game long too & both Chandler & Harrington were big scoring points, so if u're gonna give players credit for having good games u also gotta give the other team credit when they hold other good players to limited points.

definitely agree about Al, he takes horrible shots at times just like Jamal did... both can be prolific scorers when they start heating up tho & both have value to a team looking for some offense... actually watching this game i thought Nate was the main reason why the Knicks started to go into 1 on 1 style play & away from the team concept that got them the lead like Clyde was talking about... he's another guy who can be a prolific scorer when he's on but also has horrible shot selection at times.

as for D Lee, i don't think anyone here advocates trading him away for crap... he's our best trade commodity because he's obviously the most desirable player on our roster... if we end up trading him then i'm sure Donnie will try & get max value for him in a trade... otherwise if he can somehow dump Eddy Curry's contract he'll open up the means to sign D Lee to an extension & still have the cap space to pursue 2 bigname FA's in 2010... i'm sure he's got a plan for D Lee & i trust in him to not trade him away for garbage... if he goes in some deal to bring Boris Diaw here w/o something great in the package coming our way, i'll be absolutely shocked.

[Edited by - TMS on 01-05-2009 02:17 AM]

i agree about Nate. i do think the team played good defense, though I feel like the Celtics did miss a LOT of open threes. but they don't have quite as many shooters this year, so maybe that was part of a good scheme. the defense on the interior was very good.

as for the Lee trade, the offers being tossed around so far have not been reassuring. linus kleiza? a one season rental of marcus camby at 34? i want something more for Lee if we're forced to trade him. he's a very good piece, especially if he defends like he has. we have zero rebounding if we trade him. and he's the only big guy i've seen run the pick and roll consistentally well on the team.
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crzymdups
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1/5/2009  10:29 AM
Posted by Pharzeone:


Wow, that's a tough read. I think the Knicks simply out hustled the Celtics. As one Celtics fan said on another forum. The Celtics are a bully team when the opposing team out muscles them they run scare or if the opposing team is ignorant of the fact that they should be scared of the big three then it is trouble. D'Antoni came up with excellent gameplan in allowing Rondo and Allen to win the game for the Celtics on the outside but made sure to protect the paint. Chandler and Jeffries were 2 steps faster than the Celtics. To D'Antoni's credit the Knicks played half court while the Celtics were expecting motion offense from the 3 point line. Chandler and Harrington penetration broke the Celtics. Chandler confused the hell out of Garnett, he didn't know he was going to pull up for a jumper or penetrate on him. Lee's defense in the paint shouldn't be minimize either. One of the best defensive games I think I seen from him in his professional career. He stayed aggressive on the defensive end.

Chandler definitely confused KG. Though KG may have been a step slow with his knee or leg being tweaked twice in the game. I think they played hard and the defense played smart. The defense got a little lucky that the Celtics missed a bunch of open 3 pointers, but they played hard and held down the middle which we haven't done at all lately.

But my main concern is the offense - it looks like crap. We're 3-8 since Jefferies returned, maybe it's a learning curve, maybe he's helped the D, but it's certainly not just him. Al looks out of place, he and Nate disrupt the flow. The ball movement is gone. QRich looks real bad. It's a lot of one on one stuff and some pick and roll with Duhon/Lee now. That seems to be it. We had a working system earlier in the season and that system is gone. Maybe it can come back.

Look, yesterday was a good win. But I do not think it was anything close to the best game we've played all year. Maybe on defense it was, but it seemed like rather than defense we benefitted from KG getting banged up and Ray Allen missing a lot of open shots.
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jrodmc
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1/5/2009  10:43 AM
All I know is, Jared Jefferies hit a finger roll!!!

Somebody bust out an Iceman highlight!
Marv
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1/5/2009  10:56 AM
Posted by jrodmc:

All I know is, Jared Jefferies hit a finger roll!!!

Somebody bust out an Iceman highlight!

check iceman at 1.33 and 3.40.

but if you can afford to spend 4.25 on it, the whole piece is great.
TMS
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1/5/2009  11:02 AM
Posted by crzymdups:
Posted by TMS:


sure every team can have an off night & for sure Rondo & Allen were playing like crap all game long, but u gotta give the Knicks' defense a little credit for that too... it's not like those guys were just missing wide open shots all game long... Fishlips was giving Rondo problems w/his length all game long & i thought Duhon did a nice job staying w/Allen & not letting him get too many wide open looks... D Lee did a terrific job D-ing up KG in the post & not letting him establish position downlow... kept 1 of the best players in the game to 6 pts., that's big for him, we all know how he's been known as a bad defensive player but tonight he really mixed it up down there on defense... Paul Pierce was torching us all game long too & both Chandler & Harrington were big scoring points, so if u're gonna give players credit for having good games u also gotta give the other team credit when they hold other good players to limited points.

definitely agree about Al, he takes horrible shots at times just like Jamal did... both can be prolific scorers when they start heating up tho & both have value to a team looking for some offense... actually watching this game i thought Nate was the main reason why the Knicks started to go into 1 on 1 style play & away from the team concept that got them the lead like Clyde was talking about... he's another guy who can be a prolific scorer when he's on but also has horrible shot selection at times.

as for D Lee, i don't think anyone here advocates trading him away for crap... he's our best trade commodity because he's obviously the most desirable player on our roster... if we end up trading him then i'm sure Donnie will try & get max value for him in a trade... otherwise if he can somehow dump Eddy Curry's contract he'll open up the means to sign D Lee to an extension & still have the cap space to pursue 2 bigname FA's in 2010... i'm sure he's got a plan for D Lee & i trust in him to not trade him away for garbage... if he goes in some deal to bring Boris Diaw here w/o something great in the package coming our way, i'll be absolutely shocked.

[Edited by - TMS on 01-05-2009 02:17 AM]

i agree about Nate. i do think the team played good defense, though I feel like the Celtics did miss a LOT of open threes. but they don't have quite as many shooters this year, so maybe that was part of a good scheme. the defense on the interior was very good.

as for the Lee trade, the offers being tossed around so far have not been reassuring. linus kleiza? a one season rental of marcus camby at 34? i want something more for Lee if we're forced to trade him. he's a very good piece, especially if he defends like he has. we have zero rebounding if we trade him. and he's the only big guy i've seen run the pick and roll consistentally well on the team.

i have 100% confidence that those rumors are baseless... Donnie Walsh isn't a fool... he's not gonna give away a player like D Lee for Linas Kleiza only... & while Marcus Camby's a better player than D Lee is, the age & injury history factors make that trade an unlikely one as well unless there were other parts involved in the deal, cuz there's no way the Clips are giving away Camby just to get back Q Rich, & the Blazers aren't getting D Lee for only Channing Frye.

but don't think for a second we won't be able to replace Lee's rebounding if we ended up trading him in that Camby deal... if anything Camby's an even better rebounder, & he would improve our frontcourt defense immeasurably... not sure if Camby would be as good in the pick & roll w/Duhon tho... he & D Lee share a nice chemistry together.

still, if we can get Camby & a young talent like Deandre Jordan for D Lee i would have to pull the trigger on that deal if i'm Donnie Walsh.
After 7 years & 40K+ posts, banned by martin for calling Nalod a 'moron'. Awesome.
Panos
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1/5/2009  12:12 PM
Posted by TMS:

still, if we can get Camby & a young talent like Deandre Jordan for D Lee i would have to pull the trigger on that deal if i'm Donnie Walsh.

I have to disagree with you TMS. Camby will be gone by 2010, so its DLee for DJordan? Not enough for me.
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1/5/2009  12:34 PM
All credit goes to the Knicks D, which set the tone and had the C's off balance and making bad passing decisions and taking rushed shots all night. You have to give credit where it's due and the Knicks simply played one of their best defensive games for 48 minutes. Considering what we have it was a supreme effort from this group. Once again we played short handed and still they kept the energy up and finished the game. Say what you want about this teams failings, but they really do try most nights. I just think they're still learning and they need help.
TMS
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1/6/2009  12:10 AM
Posted by Panos:
Posted by TMS:

still, if we can get Camby & a young talent like Deandre Jordan for D Lee i would have to pull the trigger on that deal if i'm Donnie Walsh.

I have to disagree with you TMS. Camby will be gone by 2010, so its DLee for DJordan? Not enough for me.

don't get me wrong, that's not my ideal package if i'm giving up D Lee... i really would rather hold out for a lottery pick if we can possibly get one... & to tell u the truth i'm not all that crazy about Jerryd Bayless, unless we were planning on trading Nate as well... i think if u'r gonna trade D Lee & not get back a good pick, then we need to try & get a young bigman instead of another undersized SG... if u can get both, great... i just don't see that happening.
After 7 years & 40K+ posts, banned by martin for calling Nalod a 'moron'. Awesome.
crzymdups
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1/6/2009  11:00 PM
Posted by nyk4ever:
Posted by Pharzeone:

Wow, that's a tough read. I think the Knicks simply out hustled the Celtics. As one Celtics fan said on another forum. The Celtics are a bully team when the opposing team out muscles them they run scare or if the opposing team is ignorant of the fact that they should be scared of the big three then it is trouble. D'Antoni came up with excellent gameplan in allowing Rondo and Allen to win the game for the Celtics on the outside but made sure to protect the paint. Chandler and Jeffries were 2 steps faster than the Celtics. To D'Antoni's credit the Knicks played half court while the Celtics were expecting motion offense from the 3 point line. Chandler and Harrington penetration broke the Celtics. Chandler confused the hell out of Garnett, he didn't know he was going to pull up for a jumper or penetrate on him. Lee's defense in the paint shouldn't be minimize either. One of the best defensive games I think I seen from him in his professional career. He stayed aggressive on the defensive end.

Good post Phar. It's great to see you give D'Antoni some kudos, since I know you are one of his toughest critics.

Last night D'Antoni showed us he has it in him, now we just want to see it more often..

you guys see what i'm saying now? we didn't beat the celtics because we played well... it was because they played baaad. celtics lost to the bobcats tonight. knicks lost to the thunder. that knicks/celtics game was one of the ugliest games of basketball i've seen in a while.
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nyk4ever
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1/6/2009  11:02 PM
Posted by crzymdups:
Posted by nyk4ever:
Posted by Pharzeone:

Wow, that's a tough read. I think the Knicks simply out hustled the Celtics. As one Celtics fan said on another forum. The Celtics are a bully team when the opposing team out muscles them they run scare or if the opposing team is ignorant of the fact that they should be scared of the big three then it is trouble. D'Antoni came up with excellent gameplan in allowing Rondo and Allen to win the game for the Celtics on the outside but made sure to protect the paint. Chandler and Jeffries were 2 steps faster than the Celtics. To D'Antoni's credit the Knicks played half court while the Celtics were expecting motion offense from the 3 point line. Chandler and Harrington penetration broke the Celtics. Chandler confused the hell out of Garnett, he didn't know he was going to pull up for a jumper or penetrate on him. Lee's defense in the paint shouldn't be minimize either. One of the best defensive games I think I seen from him in his professional career. He stayed aggressive on the defensive end.

Good post Phar. It's great to see you give D'Antoni some kudos, since I know you are one of his toughest critics.

Last night D'Antoni showed us he has it in him, now we just want to see it more often..

you guys see what i'm saying now? we didn't beat the celtics because we played well... it was because they played baaad. celtics lost to the bobcats tonight. knicks lost to the thunder. that knicks/celtics game was one of the ugliest games of basketball i've seen in a while.

While you might be right to an extent Crzy, I do think that D'Antoni put together an excellent gameplan against the Celtics and I think that was a big factor in why we won. Tonight, clearly not so much.
"OMG - did we just go on a two-trade-wining-streak?" -SupremeCommander
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