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Where in the history of the NBA has a 20 year old 20-10 C traded with a HIGH lottery pick for
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joec32033
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6/8/2008  8:39 PM
That's assuming that there's no question about the talent. We all know that there are huge questions about Randolph on and off the court.

Isles, in all honesty can you question that there is not a talent disparity between Evans and Randolph? All personal feelings aside. Based on pure talent.

As I side. Off court issues are always present. Rasheed Wallace had off court issues and was traded. So was the ultimate in Ron Artest. Stephen Jackson. Ben Wallace had major issues with his teammates in Chi., declining numbers, and a massive contract and was traded. Ricky Davis in the ultimate bastard teammate and has been traded multiple times. Sprewell was traded twice.

Bottom line is NOONE is untradeable, they are just harder to trade.
So the Knicks are just doing it for the hell of it?

The Knicks drop $12M off their cap, give themselves a much better chance of getting under the cap in 2010 (which is one of Walsh's stated goals), get rid of a cancer on the team who had incidents on the bench with the head coach and a few of his teammates and don't have to watch Randolph stagnate the offense so he can get his. All of that is multiplied by the 3 years left on Randolph's contract. That's a hell of a reward and all to no risk to the Knicks.

Like I said, this is all about screwing the other team in every trade scenario concerning the Knicks.

The Knicks reward is maybe getting someone by saving some dough in the long run. That isn't even a reward to me.


[Edited by - joec32033 on 08 June 2008 20:43]
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islesfan
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6/8/2008  8:57 PM
Posted by BRIGGS:

Actually islesfan --answer me this question--does trading Zach Randolph guarantee FA for the Knicks in 2 years? What value am I getting by including pick 6 in a very good draft just to get rid of one player a tad prematurely?

Hell no. There are no guarantees. But it starts the process, that Donnie Walsh has stated numerous times as one of his goals, to be under the cap in the summer of 2010. Who he might or might not be able to acquire with that flexibility is debatable but it's the flexibility in acquiring players that matters when you're franchise is this screwed up.

This could be a very good draft, meaning it has some depth through the middle of the first round. But there isn't much depth at the top with players with very few questions. Everyone you've mentioned as possibilities at the 6 have question marks about them that could cause them to drop much further than 6. And history has shown that the 6th pick can be just as of a crapshoot as the 16th. There's no reason to believe that this year is any different. If it were a top 3 pick, there would be no argument. But not with the 6th pick, with nothing close to a sure thing available.

There's no such thing as getting rid of Zach Randolph prematurely, much less "a tad" prematurely. And it's certainly not a "just" situation. Getting rid of Randolph should be one of the top priorities for Walsh and I believe that it is. Only because he's the most obvious albatross holding this team back, roster wise. I've never suggested that they get rid of their first round pick, I would expect nothing less than getting their first round pick in return. I understand that this team needs new players and I feel that they can get a good player at 16. You seem to think that dropping 10 spots would preclude them from drafting anybody worth keeping.

Being so shortsighted that you can't see the impact that trading away the team's biggest albatross would do for the team, now and in the future, is nothing short of obtuse.
If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
islesfan
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6/8/2008  8:59 PM
Posted by BRIGGS:
Posted by islesfan:
Posted by BRIGGS:
Posted by islesfan:
Posted by BRIGGS:

I never mentioned getting rid of anyone. What i said was I would NOT give up my lottery pick to do so like the article suggested. If the Knicks feel like he wont be a fit[in fact he was never a fit here because of Curry] then I would trade him straight up for a Reggie Evans as an example. I will not give an extra asset to trade Randolph for a much lesser player--I will not give up nate balkman a 2nd round pick not evena NY Knick shoelace. Player for player swap--end of story. Zach is not a high priority to me--getting players for the future is the only thing I care about.

So why don't you think that a guy, who you think only has a handful of peers in the entire league, isn't someone to be held onto for the future, if that's all you care about?

Well I don't know why I have to mention the same thing again but if you take the time to read--I said that I do not think Zach was a good fit here when we traded for him because of Curry and he does not fit the quick transitional game of Dantoni. Its pretty simple--he doesnt fit this team. I have very little caring about Zach randolph--I guess you do?? I am only concerned with acquiring players that fit the new system. If we cant move him for a reasonable deal--I think that Mike D will have to start with a bit slower pace and put guys like Zach and curry into position to play up to their best of their abilities. Zach's contract next year has only 2 years left on it. If at that time we can find a reasonable move--he would be a sure-fire MLE player--we could buy him out for 8-9mm less spread over two years. There will be an end result to Randolph on the Knicks soon enough---were not going any place next year--it's a great time to try to increase some values of players on this team--absolutely no-brainer non even a question mark that there is no neccessity in anyway shape or form to use a 6th pcik in the lottery to expedite it. It does not guarantee FA it has very little value.

So you think any type of breakdown of Randolph should only concern his numbers and not the things that have caused his trade value to drop as low as it has?

I only ask this because in every response to this proposed trade, you fail to mention Randolph's excess baggage, pretending like it doesn't or shouldn't matter when it obviously does. The fact that you're arguing with people who understand that it matters only exacerbates the problem.

Many NBA players have baggage. Do you think Allan Iversen has baggage? Carmelo Anthony? how about Josh Howard? or dozens of guys in the league.

That is not the question. My question to you is what type of value am I getting for using the 6th pick in a high qaulity draft just to move Zach prematurely? Does it guarantee me fA in 2 years?

[Edited by - BRIGGS on 06-08-2008 8:39 PM]

You're really going to compare those guys baggage to Randolph's? Do you think their team's would trade those guys for a role player on the Sixers?
If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
islesfan
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6/8/2008  9:04 PM
Posted by joec32033:
That's assuming that there's no question about the talent. We all know that there are huge questions about Randolph on and off the court.

Isles, in all honesty can you question that there is not a talent disparity between Evans and Randolph? All personal feelings aside. Based on pure talent.

As I side. Off court issues are always present. Rasheed Wallace had off court issues and was traded. So was the ultimate in Ron Artest. Stephen Jackson. Ben Wallace had major issues with his teammates in Chi., declining numbers, and a massive contract and was traded. Ricky Davis in the ultimate bastard teammate and has been traded multiple times. Sprewell was traded twice.

Bottom line is NOONE is untradeable, they are just harder to trade.
So the Knicks are just doing it for the hell of it?

The Knicks drop $12M off their cap, give themselves a much better chance of getting under the cap in 2010 (which is one of Walsh's stated goals), get rid of a cancer on the team who had incidents on the bench with the head coach and a few of his teammates and don't have to watch Randolph stagnate the offense so he can get his. All of that is multiplied by the 3 years left on Randolph's contract. That's a hell of a reward and all to no risk to the Knicks.

Like I said, this is all about screwing the other team in every trade scenario concerning the Knicks.

The Knicks reward is maybe getting someone by saving some dough in the long run. That isn't even a reward to me.


[Edited by - joec32033 on 08 June 2008 20:43]

It's never been a question of talent when it comes to Randolph. Do you agree with that?

Go back and tell me exactly what those guys were traded for before you make any generalizations about their tradeability.

So you honestly don't think that the Knicks have anything to gain from trading Randolph, even in a straight up trade for Evans?
If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
BRIGGS
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6/8/2008  9:06 PM
Posted by islesfan:

[quote]Posted by BRIGGS:

Actually islesfan --answer me this question--does trading Zach Randolph guarantee FA for the Knicks in 2 years? What value am I getting by including pick 6 in a very good draft just to get rid of one player a tad prematurely?
-->

Hell no. There are no guarantees. OK then you have no arguement--you do not trade lottery picks for no guarantees. To say there is not much difference between 6 and 16 in this draft is laughable. And unless you hang around with AI or any other NBA player you have no idea what type of bagagge a player might have. You are speculating.
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islesfan
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6/8/2008  9:38 PM
Posted by BRIGGS:
Posted by islesfan:

[quote]Posted by BRIGGS:

Actually islesfan --answer me this question--does trading Zach Randolph guarantee FA for the Knicks in 2 years? What value am I getting by including pick 6 in a very good draft just to get rid of one player a tad prematurely?
-->

Hell no. There are no guarantees. OK then you have no arguement--you do not trade lottery picks for no guarantees. To say there is not much difference between 6 and 16 in this draft is laughable. And unless you hang around with AI or any other NBA player you have no idea what type of bagagge a player might have. You are speculating.

What the hell are you talking about? Where are there guarantees? Sure as hell not with the 6th pick in any draft including this one. That's just more subterfuge, like calling Randolph a 20 year old 20-10 C.

There's a difference between 6 and 16 but it's not the the extent that you'd like everyone to believe. The difference between a top 3 pick in any draft compared to the 6th pick is drastically greater than the difference between 6 and 16.

"To be honest, there is not a whole lot of difference from three, four, five, six, eight, 10," D'Antoni said.

And from 10 to 16 isn't much different.

Since when do you have to hang out with a player to know how much baggage he has? That's asinine. Again, would any of their teams trade them straight up for Maurice Evans? It's funny that the people who wouldn't touch the 6th pick, like yourself, think that Randolph for Evans would be a fair trade. I'm pretty sure that fans of the Nuggets and Mavs would feel that way if Iverson, Carmelo or Howard were traded straight up for Evans.
If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
islesfan
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6/8/2008  9:58 PM
Posted by BRIGGS:


The deal is moving 6-16 not your made up schmeal. Once you move 6-16 you lose ANY opportunity at

Mayo Bayless Gordon Westbrook Alexander Randolph Lopez--that is huge. You are sliding back to second tier players.

Let's use your list. First of all, Mayo and Bayless will already be gone and they were the 2nd tier beneath Rose and Beasely. Gordon, Westbrook, Alexander, Randolph, Lopez and a few others are in the 3rd tier. Now it's debatable how far that 3rd tier goes, for example NBA.com's consensus mock has Alexander going 14th (just 2 picks away from the 16th), but the difference between the 3rd tier players and the few players just outside of it isn't that great. At 16, the Knicks would be able to get one of those players.
If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
joec32033
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6/8/2008  10:13 PM
Posted by islesfan:
Posted by joec32033:
That's assuming that there's no question about the talent. We all know that there are huge questions about Randolph on and off the court.

Isles, in all honesty can you question that there is not a talent disparity between Evans and Randolph? All personal feelings aside. Based on pure talent.

As I side. Off court issues are always present. Rasheed Wallace had off court issues and was traded. So was the ultimate in Ron Artest. Stephen Jackson. Ben Wallace had major issues with his teammates in Chi., declining numbers, and a massive contract and was traded. Ricky Davis in the ultimate bastard teammate and has been traded multiple times. Sprewell was traded twice.

Bottom line is NOONE is untradeable, they are just harder to trade.
So the Knicks are just doing it for the hell of it?

The Knicks drop $12M off their cap, give themselves a much better chance of getting under the cap in 2010 (which is one of Walsh's stated goals), get rid of a cancer on the team who had incidents on the bench with the head coach and a few of his teammates and don't have to watch Randolph stagnate the offense so he can get his. All of that is multiplied by the 3 years left on Randolph's contract. That's a hell of a reward and all to no risk to the Knicks.

Like I said, this is all about screwing the other team in every trade scenario concerning the Knicks.

The Knicks reward is maybe getting someone by saving some dough in the long run. That isn't even a reward to me.


[Edited by - joec32033 on 08 June 2008 20:43]

It's never been a question of talent when it comes to Randolph. Do you agree with that?

Go back and tell me exactly what those guys were traded for before you make any generalizations about their tradeability.

So you honestly don't think that the Knicks have anything to gain from trading Randolph, even in a straight up trade for Evans?

Rasheed Wallace and Wesley Person for Abdur Rahim(who was averaging 20 and 8 at the time), Ratliff and Dan Dickau. Later traded to the Pistons for :
Atlanta Hawks General Manager Billy Knight announced today that the club has obtained a first-round draft pick (owed to Detroit from Milwaukee), guard Bob Sura and center Zeljko Rebraca from the Detroit Pistons, as well as veteran forward Chris Mills from the Boston Celtics, with forward Rasheed Wallace going to the Pistons in exchange. As part of the three-team deal, Chucky Atkins, Lindsey Hunter, a first-round draft pick and cash compensation go from Detroit to Boston in exchange for Mike James.
.

Ron Artest was traded for Peja(who also had a massive expiring deal).

Stephen Jackson was traded in that massive deal with Harrington and Sarunas for Murphy, Dunleavy, Diogu, and Keith McLoud.

Ben Wallace was traded in that deal this season:
Cavaliers get:
Bulls F/C Ben Wallace
Bulls F Joe Smith
Bulls 2009 2nd-round pick
Sonics F Wally Szczerbiak
Sonics G Delonte West
Bulls get:
Cavaliers F Drew Gooden
Cavaliers G Larry Hughes
Cavaliers F Cedric Simmons
Cavaliers G Shannon Brown
Sonics get:
Cavaliers F Ira Newble
Cavaliers F Donyell Marshall
Bulls F Adrian Griffin

Ricky Davis(comparable to Zach):
From Wolves to Heat:The Minnesota Timberwolves today announced the team has acquired forwards Antoine Walker and Wayne Simien and center Michael Doleac, along with a first-round draft pick and financial considerations from the Miami Heat in exchange for center Mark Blount and guard Ricky Davis.

From Boston to Minny:
Minnesota Timberwolves Vice President of Basketball Operations Kevin McHale today announced the team has acquired guards Ricky Davis and Marcus Banks, center Mark Blount and forward Justin Reed from the Boston Celtics for forward Wally Szczerbiak, centers Michael Olowokandi and Dwayne Jones and a future protected first-round NBA draft pick. In addition, the Timberwolves will receive two second-round picks.

From Cavs to Boston:
The Celtics and Cavaliers on Monday have agreed to a trade that will send Ricky Davis, Chris Mihm and Michael Stewart to Boston for Eric Williams, Tony Battie and Kedrick Brown......The Cavs also will send a second-round pick, which they acquired from the Celtics in the Jumaine Jones trade this summer, back to Boston.
.

Sprewell: From NY to Minny
Six players were involved, with Latrell Sprewell going to Minnesota, Glenn Robinson and Marc Jackson to Philadelphia, Keith Van Horn to New York and Terrell Brandon and Randy Holcomb to Atlanta.

Two draft picks were also exchanged, and the deal could have been even bigger........The 76ers also sent Holcomb, a reserve, and a first-round draft pick to Atlanta, while they reacquired their own 2006 second-round pick from the Hawks.

From GS to NY:
Sprewell, 32, spent the past five seasons with New York, which grabbed him from Golden State for John Starks, Chris Mills and Terry Cummings.
.

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BRIGGS
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6/8/2008  10:14 PM
Posted by islesfan:
Posted by BRIGGS:


The deal is moving 6-16 not your made up schmeal. Once you move 6-16 you lose ANY opportunity at

Mayo Bayless Gordon Westbrook Alexander Randolph Lopez--that is huge. You are sliding back to second tier players.

Let's use your list. First of all, Mayo and Bayless will already be gone and they were the 2nd tier beneath Rose and Beasely. Gordon, Westbrook, Alexander, Randolph, Lopez and a few others are in the 3rd tier. Now it's debatable how far that 3rd tier goes, for example NBA.com's consensus mock has Alexander going 14th (just 2 picks away from the 16th), but the difference between the 3rd tier players and the few players just outside of it isn't that great. At 16, the Knicks would be able to get one of those players.

First off what reason do I have to move any spot? I still do not get it? What am I profiting from in terms of value?

Secondly and I will agree with you--there are 4 segments of this draft. Pick 16 is close to the top of segment 3 pick 6 is close to the top at segment 2. I think the players in segment two are an excellent set--the best since 2005. What am I getting to move all the way down to 16 from 6? I need something valuable--trading Zach Randolph for Reggie Evans is a fair deal straight up. Enticing the deal makes no sense because Im not guaranteed FA--in fact I think that the 2010 goal is way too difficult to achieve without purging the teams best assets. Im NOT overpaying for that--it doesn't make an iota of sense. If we have learned anything--and I think you may agree with me IF we stood pat and executed our lottery picks over the last 6 years--we would have a much better team WITH better cap discipline. When you make mistakes the best thing you can do is learn from them--keep it simple--take the BPA at 6 its going to be a very good player IMHO. I am not interested in overpaying for anything. In fact I'm not really interested in trading with anyone unless a deal is perfect for us. I'm willing to sit tight--acquire a couple of good players in the draft to go with some of the players we have here and then in a year or two start using my ending contracts for S+T or just straight wait it out to 2011 when we can acquire two players in FA. IF we get to FA in 2010 Great if not so be it.
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BRIGGS
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6/8/2008  10:25 PM
Posted by joec32033:
Posted by islesfan:
Posted by joec32033:
That's assuming that there's no question about the talent. We all know that there are huge questions about Randolph on and off the court.

Isles, in all honesty can you question that there is not a talent disparity between Evans and Randolph? All personal feelings aside. Based on pure talent.

As I side. Off court issues are always present. Rasheed Wallace had off court issues and was traded. So was the ultimate in Ron Artest. Stephen Jackson. Ben Wallace had major issues with his teammates in Chi., declining numbers, and a massive contract and was traded. Ricky Davis in the ultimate bastard teammate and has been traded multiple times. Sprewell was traded twice.

Bottom line is NOONE is untradeable, they are just harder to trade.
So the Knicks are just doing it for the hell of it?

The Knicks drop $12M off their cap, give themselves a much better chance of getting under the cap in 2010 (which is one of Walsh's stated goals), get rid of a cancer on the team who had incidents on the bench with the head coach and a few of his teammates and don't have to watch Randolph stagnate the offense so he can get his. All of that is multiplied by the 3 years left on Randolph's contract. That's a hell of a reward and all to no risk to the Knicks.

Like I said, this is all about screwing the other team in every trade scenario concerning the Knicks.

The Knicks reward is maybe getting someone by saving some dough in the long run. That isn't even a reward to me.


[Edited by - joec32033 on 08 June 2008 20:43]

It's never been a question of talent when it comes to Randolph. Do you agree with that?

Go back and tell me exactly what those guys were traded for before you make any generalizations about their tradeability.

So you honestly don't think that the Knicks have anything to gain from trading Randolph, even in a straight up trade for Evans?

Rasheed Wallace and Wesley Person for Abdur Rahim(who was averaging 20 and 8 at the time), Ratliff and Dan Dickau. Later traded to the Pistons for :
Atlanta Hawks General Manager Billy Knight announced today that the club has obtained a first-round draft pick (owed to Detroit from Milwaukee), guard Bob Sura and center Zeljko Rebraca from the Detroit Pistons, as well as veteran forward Chris Mills from the Boston Celtics, with forward Rasheed Wallace going to the Pistons in exchange. As part of the three-team deal, Chucky Atkins, Lindsey Hunter, a first-round draft pick and cash compensation go from Detroit to Boston in exchange for Mike James.
.

Ron Artest was traded for Peja(who also had a massive expiring deal).

Stephen Jackson was traded in that massive deal with Harrington and Sarunas for Murphy, Dunleavy, Diogu, and Keith McLoud.

Ben Wallace was traded in that deal this season:
Cavaliers get:
Bulls F/C Ben Wallace
Bulls F Joe Smith
Bulls 2009 2nd-round pick
Sonics F Wally Szczerbiak
Sonics G Delonte West
Bulls get:
Cavaliers F Drew Gooden
Cavaliers G Larry Hughes
Cavaliers F Cedric Simmons
Cavaliers G Shannon Brown
Sonics get:
Cavaliers F Ira Newble
Cavaliers F Donyell Marshall
Bulls F Adrian Griffin

Ricky Davis(comparable to Zach):
From Wolves to Heat:The Minnesota Timberwolves today announced the team has acquired forwards Antoine Walker and Wayne Simien and center Michael Doleac, along with a first-round draft pick and financial considerations from the Miami Heat in exchange for center Mark Blount and guard Ricky Davis.

From Boston to Minny:
Minnesota Timberwolves Vice President of Basketball Operations Kevin McHale today announced the team has acquired guards Ricky Davis and Marcus Banks, center Mark Blount and forward Justin Reed from the Boston Celtics for forward Wally Szczerbiak, centers Michael Olowokandi and Dwayne Jones and a future protected first-round NBA draft pick. In addition, the Timberwolves will receive two second-round picks.

From Cavs to Boston:
The Celtics and Cavaliers on Monday have agreed to a trade that will send Ricky Davis, Chris Mihm and Michael Stewart to Boston for Eric Williams, Tony Battie and Kedrick Brown......The Cavs also will send a second-round pick, which they acquired from the Celtics in the Jumaine Jones trade this summer, back to Boston.
.

Sprewell: From NY to Minny
Six players were involved, with Latrell Sprewell going to Minnesota, Glenn Robinson and Marc Jackson to Philadelphia, Keith Van Horn to New York and Terrell Brandon and Randy Holcomb to Atlanta.

Two draft picks were also exchanged, and the deal could have been even bigger........The 76ers also sent Holcomb, a reserve, and a first-round draft pick to Atlanta, while they reacquired their own 2006 second-round pick from the Hawks.

From GS to NY:
Sprewell, 32, spent the past five seasons with New York, which grabbed him from Golden State for John Starks, Chris Mills and Terry Cummings.
.

Absolutely best post on the subject. There are many many examples but there is NO player that had more baggage so to speak than Latrell Sprewell and we got him for roughly nothing . These are excellent comps. Like I mentioned above there has never been another example of a player with superior skills and a lottery pick being traded for a player of less skill and a pick 10 spots down on the board. It's absurd and Im not interested in starting the precedent.

Also I agree with Mike D there is not much difference between 4-10 but 16 is a different story.
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joec32033
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6/8/2008  10:29 PM
*Sorry, I don't know contract situations in these deals.

Broken Down:

Rasheed netted the Blazers a 20 and 8 forward, and a decent defensive center.
Rasheed netted ATL a first round pick and filler.

Artest gave Indy instant cap relief.

Jax was part of a trade that netted the Pacers 2 starters and a first rounder from the previous year.

A disgruntled, old Ben Wallace got the Cavs a 15 and 8 forward who is 27(?), a starting quality-albeit injury prone-SG, and a first round pick from a year or two ago.

Ricky Davis got the Wolves a first round pick, a first round pick from the year prior, a bad contract and some money.

Davis got the the Celts a first rounder, a starting quality SG/SF, and some lower contract.

Davis got Cleveland Tony Battie(comparable to Evans except he blocks alot more shots), Eric Williams(who was servicable and a decent bench player) and Kedrick Brown who was the 11th overall pick in '01-This trade was made in December of '03.
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BRIGGS
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6/8/2008  10:41 PM
Ricky Davis and Mark Blount--Miami gave THEM a first round+2nd pick and cap relief-- Zach randolph is better than both of those players put together.


I think the case is closed?
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6/8/2008  10:56 PM
Posted by islesfan:
Posted by newyorknewyork:
Posted by islesfan:
Posted by newyorknewyork:
Posted by islesfan:
Posted by martin:
Posted by newyorknewyork:

I don't have a high opinion on Zack Randolph at all really, Looking at it from a buisness sense we are overpaying when we shouldn't have to.

Philly wants to try and fit all there needs & desires in one deal because they don't have many pieces to play with. So they want to add Randolph & move up all in one.

Randolph is a nice fit for them reguardless. Randolph for Evens straight up is a fair deal. Swapping the #6 for #16 is overpaying. There for if they want to even out the deal they are going to need to add another draft pick.

If Randolph had 5yrs left I would understand, but he has 3. If it was Eric Dampier with his 6pts 7.5rebs I would understand, but its Randolph who is 26yrs old & can produce 20pts 10rebs. The fact that he is 26yrs old, produces 20pts 10rebs & has 3yrs left the same yrs as Evens AND FILLS A NEED FOR THEM should make Randolph for Evens more then enough. They fill a need and we fill a need. Again if they want the #6 they need to add another draft pick and that would still be great value for them.

Nets in 2001 traded #7 pick for #13, #18 & #23. So by my calculations with Randolph for Evens being an even swap(even though they are still making out like bandits), And the #6 pick having the value of 3 mid to late first rd picks. Asking for #16 & a future draft pick is still a steal for Philly.

Agreed with all of the above and I would add even more. Randolph FITS on their team. Dalembert is a rebounding, shotblocking, very mobile center; you have guards who lock down players; PG who passes and moves; etc. Philly lacks a post presence and a go-to scorer.

Wow, is there anything that can go wrong for the Sixers if they make this trade? Why is Randolph's value that depressed where he would be traded even up for a bench role player? Isn't Philly assuming that giant risk, while the Knicks are clearing the $70M they would pay for him and ridding themselves of someone whose behavior and selfish play has drastically depressed his value? That's why swapping first round picks makes it a reasonable trade, one that the Sixers might actually listen to.

If that trade goes down, I'll be the one praising Donnie Walsh. I'll be the one confident that Walsh can still find a solid player at 16, while some of you cry about how Walsh can only be trusted with high lottery picks.

The fact that they swapped him for a bench role player that doesn't even have an expiring contract is what takes most of the risk away its not like we are asking for Evens & #16. What ever risk they take is also leveled by potential gain. If Randolph was a free agent and offerd to sign there for a 3yr deal at 10.6mil you think that they would turn that down?

We would be giving Philly a lineup of Miller,Iggy,Young,Randolph,Dalembert & the #6 lottery pick.

While we wouldn't even have immediate cap space because we still would have Curry, Crawford & Jefferies on our team. Not to mention that we would probably want to resign Lee & possibly Nate Robinson. So we would be giving Philly a loaded team and possibly still not have cap space by 2010.

There is risk on our side as well, passing up on the #6 pick means that we are passing up on a chance and possibly a potential star. There is also the risk that we still don't get cap space by 2010, then there is the risk that even if we do get cap space we end up with a 2nd or 3rd tier free agent.

Randolph for Evens is a fair deal. They both fit what both teams are trying to do, both sides have risk and potential gains.

Where is the risk for the Knicks in a Randolph for Evans even up trade?

There is no real risk for the Knicks in Randolph for Evans straight up. But there isn't as much potential gain as Philly would be receiving either.

Philly doesn't have many options to improve other than there #16pick and like 7-8mil in cap space after they resign Iggy. What other big men are available to improve them without giving up someone from there core? They aren't getting Elton Brand without giving up Iggy in a S&T. They aren't getting Jamison without giving up Andre Miller or Dalembert. They aren't getting Rasheed Wallace without giving up Dalembert.

Maybe they can get Yi by taking back Bobby Simmons contract back and giving up the #16.

Channing Frye, Chris Wilcox, Kenyon Martin, Nene Hilario, Al Harrington, Kenny Thomas, Abdul Rahim are there best options.

Maybe they could offer #16 & a future pick for Al Harrington.

So you finally admit that all the risk in that deal is on the Sixers but the Sixers should do it because you don't think that there's any other player in the NBA who could help them improve. Zach Randolph and all his baggage is it.

Like I said, this is all borne out of the unreasonable desire to screw the other team, in every trade proposal, in order to favor the Knicks. This isn't how most trades work, especially when Isiah isn't involved.

No this is all born out of not trying to overpay when we make trades like we have done so many times in the past.

Like I stated before Philly also has more potential gain in the trade even if they have more potential risk. If they feel that the risk is way to high for the gain then oh well. They are filling a need, they are getting a guy whos skills would fit right in with the other players skills, they would be getting a guy who is 26ys old can produce 20pts 10rebs, by unloading Evens they would be getting him on average of 10.6mil for 3yrs. All they are unloading is an expendable role player whos contract has the same amount of yrs on it.

If they don't like Randolph for Evens straight up then it would be no problem for me personally as I would have no problem keeping the #6 pick, and checking Randolph's value again when he has 2yrs left on his contract.
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nyballer
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6/8/2008  11:02 PM
randolph's situation is different from sheed's, because sheed was just an off-court problem. randolph is an off and on the court problem - he really kills the offense.

that being said i don't think we do this unless we have other deals in place to significantly improve our cap situation...if we can get rid of some of those MLE contracts or curry's deal, then i might be more interested. for now i want to see who we can pick up in the draft - some of these guys could turn into very good players
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TrueBlue
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6/8/2008  11:05 PM
Posted by nyballer:

randolph's situation is different from sheed's, because sheed was just an off-court problem. randolph is an off and on the court problem - he really kills the offense.

that being said i don't think we do this unless we have other deals in place to significantly improve our cap situation...if we can get rid of some of those MLE contracts or curry's deal, then i might be more interested. for now i want to see who we can pick up in the draft - some of these guys could turn into very good players

You mean other moves in place or a sure plan such as the Blazers, Hawks, and Celtics did and a plan such as the current Sonics are doing?
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joec32033
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6/8/2008  11:06 PM
Posted by nyballer:

randolph's situation is different from sheed's, because sheed was just an off-court problem. randolph is an off and on the court problem - he really kills the offense.

that being said i don't think we do this unless we have other deals in place to significantly improve our cap situation...if we can get rid of some of those MLE contracts or curry's deal, then i might be more interested. for now i want to see who we can pick up in the draft - some of these guys could turn into very good players

???

Sheed's off court and on court problems were major as were/are Zach's. Right along the line with Zach. I think Sheed and Zack are as comparable as either of them and Ricky Davis.
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newyorknewyork
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6/8/2008  11:10 PM
Posted by islesfan:
Posted by Bonn1997:
Posted by newyorknewyork:
Posted by Bonn1997:
Posted by newyorknewyork:
Posted by Bonn1997:
Posted by newyorknewyork:

How would they pay 70mil?

They are going into this offseason with a 35.7mil salary cap. Now subtract Evens 4.6mil next season = 31.1mil salary cap. Add Randolphs 14.6 = 45.7 salary cap. Now say they give Iggy a 12mil dollar contract, that equates to 57-58mil salary cap. Say they give him Rashard Lewis contract 15.6mil. That would equate to 61-62mil salary cap.
he National Basketball Association today announced that the Salary Cap for the 2007-08 season will be $55.630 million. The new Cap goes into effect at 12:01 a.m. ET on Wednesday, July 11, when the league’s “moratorium period” ends and teams can begin signing free agents and making trades.

The tax level for the 2007-08 season has been set at $67.865 million. Any team whose team salary exceeds that figure will pay a $1 tax for each $1 by which it exceeds $67.865 million.

I don't think Philly would care to much about being 7mil over the cap which will probably go up anyway to like 57mil next season in order to challenge for the ECC.

Like I said, they either have to accept that they will not add more payroll (which should be the case only if you have a finished product) or add payroll, which would put them over the luxury tax min. You're asking them to spend a quarter of their non luxury tax on one player (with a lot of baggage) and to spread the remaining three quarters on the other fourteen players. Do you really think Zach is worth that?

Another way of looking at it is that their taking on $35 mil in salary over 3 years (even without the luxury tax). If Zach was an FA, would you sign him for $12 mil a year for 3 years? I don't think any team would give him much more than the MLE (actually probably not even more than the MLE) let alone $12 mil a year.

Philly wants to win, most teams that want to win are willing to be over the salary cap for 3yrs in order to try and win. Also how much more payroll do you think they are going to try and add with a line-up of Miller, Iggy, Young, Randolph, Dalembert? They would still have there #16 and future picks, and mid level to try and keep improving.

He would be getting 10.6mil for 3yrs thats the average salary they would be paying him by unloading Evens, not 12.

You are going by your standards and think that every NBA team is going to go by your standards. Randolph would easily make 10.6mil for 3 seasons by an NBA team, EASILY. Any 26yr old who produces 20-10 will get 10mil in the open market no matter how much baggage they had. There will allways be a gm, coach, owner who thinks they have what it took to win with him.

Guys who are "EASILY" worth $10.6 mil year would be worth more in a trade than Francis and Frye. (Technically, the correct value is over $11 mil annually.) I think we're gonna have to agree to disagree here, though. I hope you're right and we can take advantage of Philly though.

I guess we are.

Portland was about to land Oden & had Aldridge in the wings. Thats why they could afford to dump Randolph for Francis & Frye. Randolph also had 4 yrs left on his deal at the time. 3yrs 11mil is not that crazy of a contract. You keep thinking of Randolph as if he is over the hill like Steve Francis. Notice also how we had to give up a shorter contract & a prospect in order to get talent in return in a deal where Randolphs value was worse then it ever was. Why didn't Portland give up a draft pick or a prospect like Outlaw to us along with Randolph to unload him for Malik Rose & Q or Jerome James expiring contracts?

We aren't really taking advantage of Philly either because its a fair deal. Only thing we are doing is exploiting there desire to win and they would be exploiting our desire to shed salary.

because they were trading with Isiah! (That said, they still got very little for Zach other than cap space and addition by subtraction.)

Don't downplay what Portland got in that trade. That cap space, in the present and for the life of Randolph's contract, and the addition just to subtract that cancer is huge.

Im not downplaying what Portland got in the trade. Its actually the opposite. When Randolph's value was at its worst because he had 4yr left they were able to trade him for a shorter contract & Frye.

Everything else is speculation, the FACTS are they were able to get a shorter contract & a prospect without having to give up a lottery pick.

We would end up giving up Trevor Ariza, Channing Frye & the #6 lottery pick for Reggie Evens & #16.
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nyballer
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6/8/2008  11:32 PM
i mean, if walsh has talked to GM's and is pretty confident he can move guys like jeffries, curry, crawford in a good deal, then yeah i'd consider this deal just because we'd be in a great situation cap wise - obviously there are no guarantees, but the NBA will want free agents in NY and with such a great free agent class, and with d'antoni here, players will want to play in NY.

If we get rid of randolph and can't resign lee and are barely under the cap, then yeah i don't like this deal. i'd rather wear randolphs contract and draft some good players since that would be our best chance at rebuilding. If we decide to rebuild then yes we would have to follow what portland, seattle etc. did - which is what i meant when i said walsh needs to find a way to get rid of any bad contracts and maybe try and collect more draft picks.
Posted by TrueBlue:
Posted by nyballer:

randolph's situation is different from sheed's, because sheed was just an off-court problem. randolph is an off and on the court problem - he really kills the offense.

that being said i don't think we do this unless we have other deals in place to significantly improve our cap situation...if we can get rid of some of those MLE contracts or curry's deal, then i might be more interested. for now i want to see who we can pick up in the draft - some of these guys could turn into very good players

You mean other moves in place or a sure plan such as the Blazers, Hawks, and Celtics did and a plan such as the current Sonics are doing?

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nyballer
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6/8/2008  11:35 PM
I'd agree with ricky davis - good stats somewhat intriguing player but is not what you want on your team since he detracts from others. pretty much what marbury is too.

sheed is/was a better defender, and although some off the court issues spilled onto the court i don't think he was ever considered such a blackhole on offense or such a liability on defense like randolph is. i think sheed's value when he was traded was much higher than what zach's is now.
Posted by joec32033:
Posted by nyballer:

randolph's situation is different from sheed's, because sheed was just an off-court problem. randolph is an off and on the court problem - he really kills the offense.

that being said i don't think we do this unless we have other deals in place to significantly improve our cap situation...if we can get rid of some of those MLE contracts or curry's deal, then i might be more interested. for now i want to see who we can pick up in the draft - some of these guys could turn into very good players

???

Sheed's off court and on court problems were major as were/are Zach's. Right along the line with Zach. I think Sheed and Zack are as comparable as either of them and Ricky Davis.

"easy like sunday morning..." - walt clyde
joec32033
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6/8/2008  11:53 PM
Posted by nyballer:

I'd agree with ricky davis - good stats somewhat intriguing player but is not what you want on your team since he detracts from others. pretty much what marbury is too.

sheed is/was a better defender, and although some off the court issues spilled onto the court i don't think he was ever considered such a blackhole on offense or such a liability on defense like randolph is. i think sheed's value when he was traded was much higher than what zach's is now.
Posted by joec32033:
Posted by nyballer:

randolph's situation is different from sheed's, because sheed was just an off-court problem. randolph is an off and on the court problem - he really kills the offense.

that being said i don't think we do this unless we have other deals in place to significantly improve our cap situation...if we can get rid of some of those MLE contracts or curry's deal, then i might be more interested. for now i want to see who we can pick up in the draft - some of these guys could turn into very good players

???

Sheed's off court and on court problems were major as were/are Zach's. Right along the line with Zach. I think Sheed and Zack are as comparable as either of them and Ricky Davis.

Remember back when the story leaked out that Boumtje-Boumtje was shooting free throws after practice and Rasheed winged a ball full speed at his head and hit him then laughed about it? Zach was with him and they both laughed at it. Rasheed was Zach's mentor for a while.

Rasheed never put up the number Zach already has. Sheed's best season-19 pts, 8 rebs, 2 blks.(00-01)-His 7th season. Zach's best-23, 10 in (06-07)his 6th season(he did average 20 and 10 in his third season).

I think you can give and take on small aspects and differences between the 2 but, imo, they are very comparable. Wallace was a cancer before he got to Detroit.
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