Posted by joec32033:

44-110. Are you seriously gonna blame it all on Rudy or blame him for not carrying the team are you?

No but they've had several draft picks and the team hasn't faired well. They have 4 picks in the Top 20 in their starting line-up I believe. Eventually I feel things will work out for them but explain how the Rockets were hurt by the trade.

Posted by TrueBlue:

Posted by joec32033:

44-110. Are you seriously gonna blame it all on Rudy or blame him for not carrying the team are you?

No but they've had several draft picks and the team hasn't faired well. They have 4 picks in the Top 20 in their starting line-up I believe. Eventually I feel things will work out for them but explain how the Rockets were hurt by the trade.

You don't think they would be more formidable with Stro Swift and Rudy Gay with T-Mac and Yao?

Posted by joec32033:

Posted by TrueBlue:

Posted by joec32033:

44-110. Are you seriously gonna blame it all on Rudy or blame him for not carrying the team are you?

No but they've had several draft picks and the team hasn't faired well. They have 4 picks in the Top 20 in their starting line-up I believe. Eventually I feel things will work out for them but explain how the Rockets were hurt by the trade.

You don't think they would be more formidable with Stro Swift and Rudy Gay with T-Mac and Yao?

to be honest i think HOU got good value out of that deal & became a more balanced squad because of it... Battier just made All NBA defensive team & he's a leader... he's a perfect complement to T-Mac... Gay on the other hand wouldn't be a good match because you'd have him competing w/T-Mac & Yao for touches on the offensive end... Stromile is an afterthought... he shouldn't factor into any equations when judging that deal IMO.

but really guys, why should we be concerned w/balancing out the roster & cap management when we've been doing such a good job of building a winning franchise going the opposite route? remember there's that core to attract bigname FA's to think about & Zach's a big part of it.

Posted by majorleads:

Briggs and everyone else who agrees with him, so far you guys have not thrown any names out who excite me at 6. There is not a single sure thing there. Bayless? Do we really need a COMBO GUARD who isn't a TRUE POINT and is too small for the SG position? Uh no. I don't really see any difference between whats available at 6 and what will be available at 16. At 16 we could take someone like Donte Green who has a lot of upside. Or McGee or Jordan. We're almost guaranteed at 16 to have one of those big men fall to us. Now obviously they have a lot of work to do to become finished products, but I see that as no different than taking someone like Bayless who can't run the point. Or someone like Gordon who is undersized at the 2. Then you have Galinari who is an unknown. Randolph? Looks nice, but he too he is a project like the 3 players I mentioned at 16.

And this is a great opportunity to rid ourselves of the cancer which is Zach Randolph AND in the process ADD a good piece in Evans who has trade value if we want to go that route.

Also, this is not about being in position only for Lebron or Wade or whoever, this is about breaking down our roster and building it back up to where we regain control of how we want to shape our roster. Right now because we have so many underperforming players with bloated contracts, we aren't in a position of strength. We need to clear roster spots and start developing youngsters from not only the draft, but also over seas and players who slip through the cracks that don't get drafted. You can find hidden gems, but you need the open roster spots to give yourself the chance to find them. That is why we also need to rid ourselves of more crap. Curry is next up. Then Crawful. Buyout Jerome James and Malik Rose too.

And we're not going to have trade next years lottery pick to rid ourselves of Curry and Crawful. Those 2 clowns can be traded for contracts 2 years and less. This is not a Zach Randolph situation.

So in 2010 we will still have our lottery picks and perhaps others if we trade David Lee and Nate. Also we might get some picks out of trading Curry and Crawful. We have a boatload of cap room to go in any direction we want to add in the missing pieces. And we're not waiting around for another team to decide if they want to trade with us. We have the power then. Cap space = power in the NBA if you know how to use it wisely.

And if we don't get Lebron in 2010, no big deal. We'll still be waaaay under the cap and not have a roster full of bloated contracts. We try again the following offseason if there isn't anything great in the free agent market or through sign and trades during the summer of 2010. No rush.

Sure beats the hell out of drafting Bayless while still having Zach Randolph on this roster.

Posted by tkf:

Posted by TrueBlue:

Posted by joec32033:

44-110. Are you seriously gonna blame it all on Rudy or blame him for not carrying the team are you?

No but they've had several draft picks and the team hasn't faired well. They have 4 picks in the Top 20 in their starting line-up I believe. Eventually I feel things will work out for them but explain how the Rockets were hurt by the trade.

Well the rockets were not hurt, battier is a good player and a very good defender, but he is not a guy who is going to carry a team. The rockets have T-mac who is physically on a swift decline. Yao may never make it through a full season, so while battier gives them some balance, Gay would have given them a potential, future franchise player if he keeps improving the way he is now.... This is where the rockets will be hurt, and honestly, reggie evans is no shane battier.... this is why this trade idea sucks, we give up a high value pick, a player who is just 26 with talent(although he is a hard head) and we get back the 16th pick and a hustle player with no talent whatsoever..... No matter how you put it, this trade would be stupid from any angle....

No it wouldn't be TKF I'll prove it to you. Let me ask you at the trade deadline if I SAY UGH offered players to a team under the cap such as Jamal, Malik Rose, and Fred Jones for the 17th pick would you have wanted this trade to go down?

Posted by tkf:

Posted by TrueBlue:

Posted by tkf:

Posted by TrueBlue:

Posted by joec32033:

44-110. Are you seriously gonna blame it all on Rudy or blame him for not carrying the team are you?

No but they've had several draft picks and the team hasn't faired well. They have 4 picks in the Top 20 in their starting line-up I believe. Eventually I feel things will work out for them but explain how the Rockets were hurt by the trade.

Well the rockets were not hurt, battier is a good player and a very good defender, but he is not a guy who is going to carry a team. The rockets have T-mac who is physically on a swift decline. Yao may never make it through a full season, so while battier gives them some balance, Gay would have given them a potential, future franchise player if he keeps improving the way he is now.... This is where the rockets will be hurt, and honestly, reggie evans is no shane battier.... this is why this trade idea sucks, we give up a high value pick, a player who is just 26 with talent(although he is a hard head) and we get back the 16th pick and a hustle player with no talent whatsoever..... No matter how you put it, this trade would be stupid from any angle....

No it wouldn't be TKF I'll prove it to you. Let me ask you at the trade deadline if I SAY UGH offered players to a team under the cap such as Jamal, Malik Rose, and Fred Jones for the 17th pick would you have wanted this trade to go down?

what does that have to do with this trade? As long as he is not offering a high pick to move those guys, I don't see your point...

Here's the point...

TMS I'm kind of shocked you're acknowledging this particular side of the debate but we're pretty much in agreement. The problem with some fans like Joe, Briggs, TKF and our overall fanbase we look at trades strictly from a talent perspective and if we won or not. You can't look at trades that way. You have to look at the scope as to what the trade allows a team to do top to bottom. Let's look at another example closely related to this franchise as the reason to entertain such a trade. Portland traded Zach Randolph, Dan Dickau(expiring), Fred Jones(expiring), Nichols(2nd round pick) 4 Frye(2 yrs removed 8th round pick) and Francis. Our Fans at the time said Knicks>>>>Portland on the trade and primarily pointed to the fact from a talent(asset) perspective Portland got used. How did Portland fair after the trade and how did we? The Atlanta Hawks gave up Shareef, Theo, Dan Dickau to Portland for Rasheed $17mil expiring salary and then sent Rasheed to the Pistons for Bob Sura, Zeljko Rebraca, and what proved to be the 17th pick of the 2004 draft. Now let's look at this very objectively from a talent perspective. ATL at the time gave up talent(assets) to get a couple expirings and a moderate 1rst rounder. The 17th pick Detroit got from a trade they did with Milwaukee via Rodney White trade. So essentially ATL got Milwaukee's first round pick of 2004. Theo Ratliff(age 31 at the trade) ranked first in blocks in the league after the trade was made at 4.4/gm and he avg 2.5 the following yr and SAR(age 27 at the trade) was a 20pts/10reb player when the trade was made. ATL traded Theo and SAR for the 17th pick in the 2004 draft that has produced just one Superstar and about 9 2nd/3rd tier players. If you break the trade down on paper talentwise that would be like us trading Jamal, Malik Rose, and Fred Jones at the deadline for the 17th pick in this yrs draft. You know how many people would have blown their gasket if such a trade was made at the deadline(not me of course).


Well with the 17th pick of the 2004 draft ATL selected.....



GOD BLESS AND GOOD NIGHT!!!!!!!!


[Edited by - TrueBlue on 06-07-2008 01:08 AM]

Posted by tkf:

Posted by TrueBlue:

Posted by tkf:

Posted by TrueBlue:

Posted by tkf:

Posted by TrueBlue:

Posted by joec32033:

44-110. Are you seriously gonna blame it all on Rudy or blame him for not carrying the team are you?

No but they've had several draft picks and the team hasn't faired well. They have 4 picks in the Top 20 in their starting line-up I believe. Eventually I feel things will work out for them but explain how the Rockets were hurt by the trade.

Well the rockets were not hurt, battier is a good player and a very good defender, but he is not a guy who is going to carry a team. The rockets have T-mac who is physically on a swift decline. Yao may never make it through a full season, so while battier gives them some balance, Gay would have given them a potential, future franchise player if he keeps improving the way he is now.... This is where the rockets will be hurt, and honestly, reggie evans is no shane battier.... this is why this trade idea sucks, we give up a high value pick, a player who is just 26 with talent(although he is a hard head) and we get back the 16th pick and a hustle player with no talent whatsoever..... No matter how you put it, this trade would be stupid from any angle....

No it wouldn't be TKF I'll prove it to you. Let me ask you at the trade deadline if I SAY UGH offered players to a team under the cap such as Jamal, Malik Rose, and Fred Jones for the 17th pick would you have wanted this trade to go down?

what does that have to do with this trade? As long as he is not offering a high pick to move those guys, I don't see your point...

Here's the point...

TMS I'm kind of shocked you're acknowledging this particular side of the debate but we're pretty much in agreement. The problem with some fans like Joe, Briggs, TKF and our overall fanbase we look at trades strictly from a talent perspective and if we won or not. You can't look at trades that way. You have to look at the scope as to what the trade allows a team to do top to bottom. Let's look at another example closely related to this franchise as the reason to entertain such a trade. Portland traded Zach Randolph, Dan Dickau(expiring), Fred Jones(expiring), Nichols(2nd round pick) 4 Frye(2 yrs removed 8th round pick) and Francis. Our Fans at the time said Knicks>>>>Portland on the trade and primarily pointed to the fact from a talent(asset) perspective Portland got used. How did Portland fair after the trade and how did we? The Atlanta Hawks gave up Shareef, Theo, Dan Dickau to Portland for Rasheed $17mil expiring salary and then sent Rasheed to the Pistons for Bob Sura, Zeljko Rebraca, and what proved to be the 17th pick of the 2004 draft. Now let's look at this very objectively from a talent perspective. ATL at the time gave up talent(assets) to get a couple expirings and a moderate 1rst rounder. The 17th pick Detroit got from a trade they did with Milwaukee via Rodney White trade. So essentially ATL got Milwaukee's first round pick of 2004. Theo Ratliff(age 31 at the trade) ranked first in blocks in the league after the trade was made at 4.4/gm and he avg 2.5 the following yr and SAR(age 27 at the trade) was a 20pts/10reb player when the trade was made. ATL traded Theo and SAR for the 17th pick in the 2004 draft that has produced just one Superstar and about 9 2nd/3rd tier players. If you break the trade down on paper talentwise that would be like us trading Jamal, Malik Rose, and Fred Jones at the deadline for the 17th pick in this yrs draft. You know how many people would have blown their gasket if such a trade was made at the deadline(not me of course).


Well with the 17th pick of the 2004 draft ATL selected.....


GOD BLESS AND GOOD NIGHT!!!!!!!!


[Edited by - TrueBlue on 06-07-2008 01:08 AM]

I still don't see the point you are trying to make here.. through all of that long winded post of yours, what does that have to do with trading a 6th pick and a talented player for garbage and cap space?

None of those scenarios you pointed out are similar to this trade... we don't care that we are losing out on the talent aspect. Hell for all I care trade zach for reggie evans straight up!!! I didn't see in any of your scenarios where any of those teams traded a talented player and a top 6 pick to get cap space and a pick 10 spots lower...

And in your own words.. How much better did josh smith make atlanta? until Joe johnson got there they were trash...... I know, I was a season ticket holder bro...

The problem with some fans like Joe, Briggs, TKF and our overall fanbase we look at trades strictly from a talent perspective and if we won or not.

The problem is, you are not reading, go back and look at my post, briggs, fish and others, we would take a zach for reggie evans trade straight up.. hell I would take zach for a player who is on the DL for the whole season if his contract was smaller, I just don't want to include pick#6 to accomplish that!!!

[Edited by - tkf on 07-06-2008 02:28 AM]

it's $10mil and 16 for 6 I just don't see how this is an outlandishly stupid trade. Are there possible better trades than this one? Maybe, but if this is on the table it's not a bad offer. You're looking at the trade with a different vantage point. I don't look at pick 6 and the number or it's lottery position I look at it as an asset and nothing more. Zach's production and age is totally irrelevant in this trade he did nothing for us, actually helped make us worse. What asset am I giving up and what asset(s)(including flexibility) am I getting back. If it ould be proven we had no other talent to grab at 16 then I could see where the concern will be but history has proven tons of mistakes are made between picks 10-30.

LOL Josh Smith may have not helped much initially considering they were in the beginning stages of their rebuild process but one of the main reasons they got Joe Johnson was because they moved their Albatross contracts and that's what we're trying to do here with the Zach trade.

If you would do Zach for Reggie straight up then why do you insist on highlighting Zach's production and/or age? It's irrelevant and has zero factor into trading him.

Here's another example would you trade pick 6 or even 5, Q, Nate for Micheal Redd and a 2nd round pick?



[Edited by - TrueBlue on 06-07-2008 01:50 AM]

Posted by islesfan:

A quote from Alan Hahn's blog regarding this trade rumor:

"One GM I spoke with thought it would be a good deal for both teams"

Just saying.