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OT: Seariously How about an Ignore Button????
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RemBee76
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11/4/2007  5:38 PM
Posted by codeunknown:
Clarification: Surrounding Marbury with championship level talent in a reasonable time period would have been impossible with the dearth of assets remainng.

So in your opinion this team had, before the Marbury trade, enough assets to put together a championship level team within a reasonable time period?
Its like a groupie website, or bitter ex-wives club. -Sebstar
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codeunknown
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11/4/2007  5:45 PM
Posted by RemBee76:
Posted by codeunknown:
Clarification: Surrounding Marbury with championship level talent in a reasonable time period would have been impossible with the dearth of assets remainng.

So in your opinion this team had, before the Marbury trade, enough assets to put together a championship level team within a reasonable time period?

If you mean they had the option of not screwing themselves for a longer period, the answer is yes.
Sh-t in the popcorn to go with sh-t on the court. Its a theme show like Medieval times.
RemBee76
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11/4/2007  5:50 PM
Understood. So why did you continue to support Isiah as a GM by rooting for the team even though it was clear, even after the earliest significant move of his tenure, that he was not utilizing the team's assets in way that you thought would lead to future success?
Its like a groupie website, or bitter ex-wives club. -Sebstar
codeunknown
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11/4/2007  5:56 PM
Posted by RemBee76:

Understood. So why did you continue to support Isiah as a GM by rooting for the team even though it was clear, even after the earliest significant move of his tenure, that he was not utilizing the team's assets in way that you thought would lead to future success?

I rooted less. And as the pattern unfolded, I stopped rooting.
Sh-t in the popcorn to go with sh-t on the court. Its a theme show like Medieval times.
RemBee76
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11/4/2007  6:01 PM
Rooted less? I'm sorry I don't understand.

Do you mean that you rooted for them to win only every other game? One out of three games? Or had you simply become indifferent to the team's fortunes?

Its like a groupie website, or bitter ex-wives club. -Sebstar
codeunknown
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11/4/2007  6:06 PM
Posted by RemBee76:

Rooted less? I'm sorry I don't understand.

Do you mean that you rooted for them to win only every other game? One out of three games? Or had you simply become indifferent to the team's fortunes?

Please try harder to understand. As I became more convinced that Isiah was likely to make a chain of mistakes, each loss stung less as it represented the increased probability of his dismissal.
Sh-t in the popcorn to go with sh-t on the court. Its a theme show like Medieval times.
RemBee76
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11/4/2007  6:17 PM
So you became indifferent, as each lost game no longer stung, and any win was only one more reason to expect Isiah to remain and continue a chain of errors.

So in your opinion being an indifferent fan is catering one's actions to the probabilities of sequalae or success? Can you define how that is significantly different from abandoning the team if you don't think they are going to be any good?

Its like a groupie website, or bitter ex-wives club. -Sebstar
codeunknown
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11/4/2007  6:37 PM
Posted by RemBee76:

So you became indifferent, as each lost game no longer stung, and any win was only one more reason to expect Isiah to remain and continue a chain of errors.

So in your opinion being an indifferent fan is catering one's actions to the probabilities of sequalae or success? Can you define how that is significantly different from abandoning the team if you don't think they are going to be any good?

The difference should be quite clear. At one discrete, hypothetical point along the course of Isiah's tenure, I was indifferent to the result of individual games because the odds of that win contributing to a meaningful turnaround were offset by the odds that the win would lead to Isiah's dismissal, an alternate path to a significant improvement in my opinion. This is, needless to say, not the same as being indifferent to the team's success; rather it is a manifestation of being unsure about which route is better. Since then, I actively root against the team because I expect greater long-term beneficial results from Isiah being ousted. Of course, this stance is also very separate from being indifferent since the overall success of the team remains my priority.
Sh-t in the popcorn to go with sh-t on the court. Its a theme show like Medieval times.
islesfan
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11/4/2007  6:52 PM
A Few Good Men this is not.

Not only can't RemBee handle the truth, he doesn't care what the truth is.
If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
BasketballJones
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11/4/2007  6:57 PM
Posted by islesfan:

A Few Good Men this is not.

Not only can't RemBee handle the truth, he doesn't care what the truth is.

I dunno. A jury of his peers might find codeunknown guilty.
https:// It's not so hard.
codeunknown
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11/4/2007  6:59 PM
Posted by BasketballJones:
Posted by islesfan:

A Few Good Men this is not.

Not only can't RemBee handle the truth, he doesn't care what the truth is.

I dunno. A jury of his peers might find codeunknown guilty.

I just can't get no love today, it would seem.
Sh-t in the popcorn to go with sh-t on the court. Its a theme show like Medieval times.
islesfan
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11/4/2007  7:02 PM
Posted by BasketballJones:
Posted by islesfan:

A Few Good Men this is not.

Not only can't RemBee handle the truth, he doesn't care what the truth is.

I dunno. A jury of his peers might find codeunknown guilty.

Guilty of having a clue or having good taste maybe.
If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
codeunknown
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11/4/2007  7:06 PM
I now owe Rembee 11.6 million dollars.
Sh-t in the popcorn to go with sh-t on the court. Its a theme show like Medieval times.
joec32033
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11/4/2007  7:07 PM
Posted by BasketballJones:
Posted by joec32033:


93Buick
ActionJackson
AI
AllanFan20
Andrew
Anji
Arkrud
azamatbagatov
BasketballJones
Bippity10
Blueseats
Bobs3304
Bonn1997
BRIGGS
buddapaw
CDB
Cookdcokehop
Cosmic
CrushAlot
crzymdups
djsunyc
Evil
Firefly
Fishmike
FrenchKnicks
Gunsnewing
HARDCOREKNICKSFAN
Ira
Islefan
K22
Kam77
King1
knicksbabyyeah
Majorleads
Martin
Marv
Misterearl
MS
mythfase
Nalod
NewYorkSoul
Nixluva
NYK3
NYKBocker
NYResuerection
oohah
Papabear
playa2
PresIke
RemBee
Silverfuel
TheGame
tkf
TMS
Tru
Trublue
VDesai
Vmart
WOODMANnYk


WOOOHOOO! I didn't make the list! Jones like me more than he likes himself!!!
93Buick
ActionJackson
AI
AllanFan20
Andrew
Anji
Arkrud
azamatbagatov
BasketballJones
Bippity10
Blueseats
Bobs3304
Bonn1997
BRIGGS
buddapaw
CDB
Cookdcokehop
Cosmic
CrushAlot
crzymdups
djsunyc
Evil
Firefly
Fishmike
FrenchKnicks
Gunsnewing
HARDCOREKNICKSFAN
Ira
Islefan
joec32033
K22
Kam77
King1
knicksbabyyeah
Majorleads
Martin
Marv
Misterearl
MS
mythfase
Nalod
NewYorkSoul
Nixluva
NYK3
NYKBocker
NYResuerection
oohah
Papabear
playa2
PresIke
RemBee
Silverfuel
TheGame
tkf
TMS
Tru
Trublue
VDesai
Vmart
WOODMANnYk


Thanks for pointing out the omission. It has been corrected.

~You can't run from who you are.~
nyk4ever
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11/4/2007  7:08 PM
Posted by codeunknown:

I now owe Rembee 11.6 million dollars.

From a money standpoint. Can you clarify that?
"OMG - did we just go on a two-trade-wining-streak?" -SupremeCommander
RemBee76
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11/4/2007  7:08 PM
Posted by codeunknown:
Of course, this stance is also very separate from being indifferent since the overall success of the team remains my priority.

Does it?

I’ve submitted to your psychological analysis of my choice to root for the team to win as misplacing the virtue of loyalty by reverting to the “rooting for the Knicks no matter what” default. Allow me to form my own wildly inexact profile of your fandom.

I actually think your emotions are more galvanized by an intense dislike for Isiah Thomas than any desire to see the Knicks succeed, now or in the future. You don’t want them to win in the short term because that means Isiah would remain, even if they are, in fact, winning. Yet its erroneous to say that this somehow means you are actively rooting for success in the long term because even you must admit that Isiah's removal is no guarantee that MSG will suddenly become a successfully run organization. In fact, I'm sure you understand that it likely will mean very little.

So when you made the transition from indifference to actively rooting against the team it couldn’t be out of a firm belief that things will get better when Isiah is gone. You have no strong reason to believe that. However, you do have a strong belief that you dislike Isiah Thomas. As you yourself made clear earlier in the thread, it isn't Isiah's players, it’s the man himself.

So while a rooting interest in the Knicks remains, it couldn’t be said that this interest in any way relates to the team’s current probabilities of sequalae or success. It is, at best, a kind of nostalgic fandom. You feel a connection to other fans because, like them, you long for those good old days when the Knicks made the playoffs every year, played hard nosed defense, and never took a night off.

You still call yourself a Knick fan because you liked those Knicks. But of course, those Knicks aren’t here anymore.



[Edited by - rembee76 on 11-04-2007 7:10 PM]
Its like a groupie website, or bitter ex-wives club. -Sebstar
codeunknown
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11/4/2007  7:43 PM
Posted by RemBee76:
Posted by codeunknown:
Of course, this stance is also very separate from being indifferent since the overall success of the team remains my priority.

Does it?

I’ve submitted to your psychological analysis of my choice to root for the team to win as misplacing the virtue of loyalty by reverting to the “rooting for the Knicks no matter what” default. Allow me to form my own wildly inexact profile of your fandom.

I actually think your emotions are more galvanized by an intense dislike for Isiah Thomas than any desire to see the Knicks succeed, now or in the future. You don’t want them to win in the short term because that means Isiah would remain, even if they are, in fact, winning. Yet its erroneous to say that this somehow means you are actively rooting for success in the long term because even you must admit that Isiah's removal is no guarantee that MSG will suddenly become a successfully run organization. In fact, I'm sure you understand that it likely will mean very little.

So when you made the transition from indifference to actively rooting against the team it couldn’t be out of a firm belief that things will get better when Isiah is gone. You have no strong reason to believe that. However, you do have a strong belief that you dislike Isiah Thomas. As you yourself made clear earlier in the thread, it isn't Isiah's players, it’s the man himself.

So while a rooting interest in the Knicks remains, it couldn’t be said that this interest in any way relates to the team’s current probabilities of sequalae or success. It is, at best, a kind of nostalgic fandom. You feel a connection to other fans because, like them, you long for those good old days when the Knicks made the playoffs every year, played hard nosed defense, and never took a night off.

You still call yourself a Knick fan because you liked those Knicks. But of course, those Knicks aren’t here anymore.



[Edited by - rembee76 on 11-04-2007 7:10 PM]

Rembee, why do I always feel like you're in a hurry? You're now misinterpreting me left and right and I can only hope its not intentional. Lets start with the fact that that my "psychological analysis" was not an attempt to profile your fandom specifically; the post was made before we entered into a discourse. I made the post to document my feelings on some of the more hardcore "lovers" that at times feel intensely violated by the "negativity on this site."

Your attempted dissection of my "fandom" takes no account of the fact that my "dislike for Isiah" was spurred by his incompetence and progressed as his pattern of management became more evident. Perhaps you used your own internal ignore feature to neglect that. As you might admit, Isiah is clearly mistake-prone. So although new management may be unable to immediately trade some of our more useless players, at the very least they won't add to the mess. And rooting against the team doesn't make sense once appropriate management is hired.

The argument that "Isiah's removal is no guarantee that MSG will suddenly become a successfully run organization" is perhaps the most disturbing. And, in my opinion, it is the source of the over simplified "root now" default. My position is not that there is a guarantee of a "better run organization" but rather that the odds of success are greater. Considerably greater. Layden and Isiah are arguably some of the worst GMs any sport has ever seen, with a pattern of transcations strongly predictive of future panic and incompetence. When posters pine for "anyone else," it reflects the likely scenario that we won't draw the absolute shortest straw again. Its not complicated math to reason why a guarantee shouldn't be necessary; the perceived disparity in the odds of success are a sufficient comparion of the alternatives. Guarantees don't exist in reality and hiding behind them to "root now" suggests an incapability to rigorously evaluate the situation.

Well, I'm glad I answered your questions. Have a good night.


[Edited by - codeunknown on 11-04-2007 7:49 PM]
Sh-t in the popcorn to go with sh-t on the court. Its a theme show like Medieval times.
RemBee76
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11/4/2007  7:58 PM
Posted by codeunknown:
The argument that "Isiah's removal is no guarantee that MSG will suddenly become a successfully run organization" is perhaps the most disturbing. And, in my opinion, it is the source of the over simplified "root now" default. My position is not that there is a guarantee of a "better run organization" but rather that the odds of success are greater. Considerably greater.

Simply, it isn't a guarantee, or even a strong liklihood. Which is why I find rooting for that above all else so problematic.

I guess I assumed that you understood that I was arguing that team success in the short term, with a predominantly young and still developing team, has a far greater probability of being a prelude to future success than the firing of the GM that brought them together. So it would seem that your rooting for the later over the former, for that to be the emotion that stirs you from your indifference over the Knicks fates, puts your priorities in question.

Oh well. Yeah, I am in a hurry. Thats my life. I’m watching the Knicks go on a little run right now and I’m enjoying it.

Thanks for answering my questions.
Its like a groupie website, or bitter ex-wives club. -Sebstar
loweyecue
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11/4/2007  8:09 PM
Posted by oohah:
I've really thought about this. When Isiah is gone, I won't give a crap about him anymore. I'll be annoyed at the shambles he'll be leaving my Knicks and I'll always ridicule him but I'll be back to being a Knicks fan. Dolan and Isiah's leftover garbage will be impossible to overlook but at least I'll have my team back. It'll be an interesting transformation back to the diehard I used to be.


Ahhh, I see. You admit that you aren't a fan? So what exactly is your purpose here? Because you don't root for the Knicks, you want to ruin the experience for everyone else?

Sometimes I think Islesfan is a loser without peer...then I remember Trueblue.

oohah




My my, 4 pages and still going and everybody who is calling out Islesfan for hating is loading hate on him. Somehow that's not twofaced?

Ruin the experience? I thught the Knicks were doing a pretty good job of that the last time I checked or did you just miss out on back to back nailbiting thirty three win seasons.

You claim to need the ignore button because you are tired of reading his hate posts. Now with all the talk around that I cannot for the life of me find that many hate posts by islefan. I do however find full four page threads hating his hate posts by papabear and you and others.

Don't get me wrong though I don't have a problem with your opinion, you are entitled to it. I am just pointing out some obvious inconsistencies. If you hate the haters you are not that much different from them.
TKF on Melo ::....he is a punk, a jerk, a self absorbed out of shape, self aggrandizing, unprofessional, volume chucking coach killing playoff loser!!
codeunknown
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11/4/2007  8:21 PM
Posted by RemBee76:
Posted by codeunknown:
The argument that "Isiah's removal is no guarantee that MSG will suddenly become a successfully run organization" is perhaps the most disturbing. And, in my opinion, it is the source of the over simplified "root now" default. My position is not that there is a guarantee of a "better run organization" but rather that the odds of success are greater. Considerably greater.


I guess I assumed that you understood that I was arguing that team success in the short term, with a predominantly young and still developing team, has a far greater probability of being a prelude to future success than the firing of the GM that brought them together. So it would seem that your rooting for the later over the former, for that to be the emotion that stirs you from your indifference over the Knicks fates, puts your priorities in question.

That's certainly not what it seemed like you were arguing or maybe you aren't sure what you were arguing. You introduced the word "guarantee" into the equation while I've continually emphasized relative probabilities. Regardless, if we're in agreement that the perceived odds of success are deterministic, then you also concede that there are situations where one might be justified in rooting against the team to win now. Our disagreement would then lie in the evaluation of the current team and management.

If you have any more questions, I'll be glad to provide the answers.
Sh-t in the popcorn to go with sh-t on the court. Its a theme show like Medieval times.
OT: Seariously How about an Ignore Button????

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