Posted by Papabear:

Papabear says

Damn you guys are still talking about Zeke and race?? You must really hate him and he don't even know you guys are alive. I won't get into this discussion because it's irrelivent. Zeke and Dolan won. The first few games of the season at MSG will be sold out and I will be there.

Papabear

[Edited by - Papabear on 09-25-2007 7:54 PM]

Posted by codeunknown:

Posted by Killa4luv:


And I would likewise assume that someone who claimed to have ‘good intuition’ without any significant such experience or contact, would seem far less credible.

Lets put this sideshow to rest - I grew up in a racially diverse community. I have worked in hospitals with predominantly black and minority patients. I have mentored minority/black kids for over a decade. So call it intuition or call it empirically derived, but my opinion would stand well against yours.

Let me reiterate once again, this is not about the numbers of African Americans that idolize IT. Rather, it is a prediction of how many might be swayed or even subtly influenced by his well-publicized, irresponsible comments. And, as I've said since the beginning, it should be about the dampening and reversal of this effect by the demonstration of public disapproval by black leaders.

Why, Killa, did Isiah bring up white people in the context of the sexual harassment accusations against him? In the context of the failure to discipline Marbury for calling Anucha a bitch? The chronology of his comments is incriminating until you can explain otherwise.

Until you can justify the introduction of race in his testimony and in our discussion at large, rallying around Isiah on racial grounds remains an absolute non-sequitur. A show of African American support for Isiah makes zero strides agaist racism but it certainly engenders a pressure to assimilate that reinforces his sexist comments among black people.

Posted by Killa4luv:

Posted by codeunknown:

Posted by Killa4luv:


And I would likewise assume that someone who claimed to have ‘good intuition’ without any significant such experience or contact, would seem far less credible.

Lets put this sideshow to rest - I grew up in a racially diverse community. I have worked in hospitals with predominantly black and minority patients. I have mentored minority/black kids for over a decade. So call it intuition or call it empirically derived, but my opinion would stand well against yours.

Let me reiterate once again, this is not about the numbers of African Americans that idolize IT. Rather, it is a prediction of how many might be swayed or even subtly influenced by his well-publicized, irresponsible comments. And, as I've said since the beginning, it should be about the dampening and reversal of this effect by the demonstration of public disapproval by black leaders.

Why, Killa, did Isiah bring up white people in the context of the sexual harassment accusations against him? In the context of the failure to discipline Marbury for calling Anucha a bitch? The chronology of his comments is incriminating until you can explain otherwise.

Until you can justify the introduction of race in his testimony and in our discussion at large, rallying around Isiah on racial grounds remains an absolute non-sequitur. A show of African American support for Isiah makes zero strides agaist racism but it certainly engenders a pressure to assimilate that reinforces his sexist comments among black people.

Again we will have to agree to disagree, I would need some sort of survey to convince me that black kids are gonna be influenced by Isiah's remarks because I dont think his opinion holds weight among black kids, or any other section of the black population.

I dont know why he brought it up, the chronology is incriminating, and I never tried to justify his introduction of race into his testimony, I have said several times, even in this thread, that while i understand and even agree with what I think he is saying, I think its a pretty stupid thing to say publicly, especially when no one even asked him.

I never ever rallied around Isiah in any way, I had a few points in all of this which are:
1) he never said it was ok or gave quasi-approval for anyone to call a black woman a B, as many posters here and the author of the article claimed.
2) The position that you, Blue, Martin, et al are championing, namely that of concern for the misguidance of black youth, seems contrived. I really have a hard time believing you guys are motivated by concern for black children or the plight of black women. When there are so many real and serious issues black youth and black women are forced to confront, it is almost insulting to suggest that black people devote time and energy to a remark and/or alleged act by one black man against one woman.

This is really about Isiah saying some things that white people found offensive, and I can understand white people being bothered by the real remarks and the alleged remark, but to suggest that our community rally against him because of it, in the context of the things we have to deal with in this country, seems... I cant even think of the word to describe it, but its ridiculous.

Posted by martin:

Posted by Killa4luv:

This is really about Isiah saying some things that white people found offensive, and I can understand white people being bothered by the real remarks and the alleged remark, but to suggest that our community rally against him because of it, in the context of the things we have to deal with in this country, seems... I cant even think of the word to describe it, but its ridiculous.

Could you sub out "Isiah" and put in "Imus" and sub out "white" and put in "black" .... would your statement hold and would you believe it? Especially the "I cant even think of the word to describe it, but its ridiculous"?

It's a question, not my position.

Posted by Killa4luv:

Posted by martin:

Posted by Killa4luv:

This is really about Isiah saying some things that white people found offensive, and I can understand white people being bothered by the real remarks and the alleged remark, but to suggest that our community rally against him because of it, in the context of the things we have to deal with in this country, seems... I cant even think of the word to describe it, but its ridiculous.

Could you sub out "Isiah" and put in "Imus" and sub out "white" and put in "black" .... would your statement hold and would you believe it? Especially the "I cant even think of the word to describe it, but its ridiculous"?

It's a question, not my position.

How does this sentence play out with the word changes: "To suggest that white people rally against him because of it, in the context of the things white people have to deal with in this country, seems... I cant even think of the word to describe it, but its ridiculous." It doesn't make any sense to me.

I never saw or heard of Black people suggesting that white people start a movement around Imus and that the white community condemn him, and that his remarks would influence white kids to be bigots, and so on.
Never saw that or heard about, but if that happened please inform me. But in any event, Imus really said some hurtful things, about real people and those people were really hurt by it.

Isiah made a statement about how he would feel in a hypothetical context involving an imaginary white man and black woman. I dont know if those imaginary people were hurt in the crafting of Isiah's remark, they were not available for comment.

Posted by misterearl:

Posted by Killa4luv:

Posted by martin:

Posted by Killa4luv:

This is really about Isiah saying some things that white people found offensive, and I can understand white people being bothered by the real remarks and the alleged remark, but to suggest that our community rally against him because of it, in the context of the things we have to deal with in this country, seems... I cant even think of the word to describe it, but its ridiculous.

Could you sub out "Isiah" and put in "Imus" and sub out "white" and put in "black" .... would your statement hold and would you believe it? Especially the "I cant even think of the word to describe it, but its ridiculous"?

It's a question, not my position.

How does this sentence play out with the word changes: "To suggest that white people rally against him because of it, in the context of the things white people have to deal with in this country, seems... I cant even think of the word to describe it, but its ridiculous." It doesn't make any sense to me.

I never saw or heard of Black people suggesting that white people start a movement around Imus and that the white community condemn him, and that his remarks would influence white kids to be bigots, and so on.
Never saw that or heard about, but if that happened please inform me. But in any event, Imus really said some hurtful things, about real people and those people were really hurt by it.

Isiah made a statement about how he would feel in a hypothetical context involving an imaginary white man and black woman. I dont know if those imaginary people were hurt in the crafting of Isiah's remark, they were not available for comment.

killa4 - you deserve to be commended you for your ability to tackle a difficult subject with a stlye and substance that is both patient, able to roll with the punches and based on keen insights from your experience and education.

Misterearl - you deserve to be commended for your ability to maneuver through a board of racists with a grace and panache that allow you to give impassioned compliments which leave no impartiality to be desired, dance around issues with a sunny-side up disposition and use the word "sheesh" in new and insightful ways.

Posted by BlueSeats:


I never directly implicated him in misguiding the youth, and I certainly don't put this case above other causes for blacks and women, it's simply one high-profile opportunity that could, can and will be used to teach or instruct. Not to the exclusion of other causes, but in addition to. However, the themes of the teachings might be different for each of us, and the way some blacks tend to rally around their own in a "one-for-all, all-for-one, we gotta save this brother from the media at all costs" manner has me question whether the teachings of many will advance things for black women or set them back.

The white community is a little different, when we see abuses of power we want them to go down, white or otherwise. Michael Milken, Kenneth Lay, Kozlowski, Martha Stewart, etc, we're okay with them serving their time. When Britney, Paris, Jen and Brad, etc, are acting up we're happy to see them exposed and lampooned. I don't pay much mind to the latter group one way or another, but you get my drift.

Now I understand that blacks feel their image has been exploited and abused for generations and you can't afford to see it messed with any more, so I get the disconnect there, but I also think there are times it's prudent to set the record straight and say we're not gonna stand for the nonsense WITHIN our community anymore either.

Whether this is actually a case that warrants that choice or not is what I guess we are dissecting. I'm not sure that it is, but this is the perspective from which I've been looking at it.

Let me hastily write this.

African American youth are hardly the only group susceptible to Isiah's "quasi-approval," although their initiation into a false cammeraderie bound by the notion that racism can be inserted in unrelated situations with impunity to mask other injustice is especially dangerous. Part of the reason why I was differentiating between whether Isiah is a role model and whether his comments themselves are influential is because the audience for the latter is far broader. It includes whites and blacks, men and women, adults and youth etc. I admit, though, that judging the scope of the injurious remarks is difficult.

Issue no. 2 - The concern for the African American image is overblown in this scenario. Remember that both the plaintiff and primary defendants are black. I anticipate the counter-arguments that 1) negative press usually has a greater impact 2) the Anucha "incident" may be generalized by other races to redirect sexism as a black phenomenon. Without the time to further elaborate, however, I contend that "hanging Anucha out to dry" has a more serious and damaging impact on the image of black women. And a more damaging impact on the dynamic between black men and black women.

Posted by codeunknown:

Posted by BlueSeats:


I never directly implicated him in misguiding the youth, and I certainly don't put this case above other causes for blacks and women, it's simply one high-profile opportunity that could, can and will be used to teach or instruct. Not to the exclusion of other causes, but in addition to. However, the themes of the teachings might be different for each of us, and the way some blacks tend to rally around their own in a "one-for-all, all-for-one, we gotta save this brother from the media at all costs" manner has me question whether the teachings of many will advance things for black women or set them back.

The white community is a little different, when we see abuses of power we want them to go down, white or otherwise. Michael Milken, Kenneth Lay, Kozlowski, Martha Stewart, etc, we're okay with them serving their time. When Britney, Paris, Jen and Brad, etc, are acting up we're happy to see them exposed and lampooned. I don't pay much mind to the latter group one way or another, but you get my drift.

Now I understand that blacks feel their image has been exploited and abused for generations and you can't afford to see it messed with any more, so I get the disconnect there, but I also think there are times it's prudent to set the record straight and say we're not gonna stand for the nonsense WITHIN our community anymore either.

Whether this is actually a case that warrants that choice or not is what I guess we are dissecting. I'm not sure that it is, but this is the perspective from which I've been looking at it.

Let me hastily write this.

African American youth are hardly the only group susceptible to Isiah's "quasi-approval," although their initiation into a false cammeraderie bound by the notion that racism can be inserted in unrelated situations with impunity to mask other injustice is especially dangerous. Part of the reason why I was differentiating between whether Isiah is a role model and whether his comments themselves are influential is because the audience for the latter is far broader. It includes whites and blacks, men and women, adults and youth etc. I admit, though, that judging the scope of the injurious remarks is difficult.

Issue no. 2 - The concern for the African American image is overblown in this scenario. Remember that both the plaintiff and primary defendants are black. I anticipate the counter-arguments that 1) negative press usually has a greater impact 2) the Anucha "incident" may be generalized by other races to redirect sexism as a black phenomenon. Without the time to further elaborate, however, I contend that "hanging Anucha out to dry" has a more serious and damaging impact on the image of black women. And a more damaging impact on the dynamic between black men and black women.

code - you deserve to be commended you for your ability to tackle a difficult subject with a stlye and substance that is both patient, able to roll with the punches and based on keen insights from your experience and education.

Killa, too.

Posted by BlueSeats:

Posted by codeunknown:

Posted by BlueSeats:


I never directly implicated him in misguiding the youth, and I certainly don't put this case above other causes for blacks and women, it's simply one high-profile opportunity that could, can and will be used to teach or instruct. Not to the exclusion of other causes, but in addition to. However, the themes of the teachings might be different for each of us, and the way some blacks tend to rally around their own in a "one-for-all, all-for-one, we gotta save this brother from the media at all costs" manner has me question whether the teachings of many will advance things for black women or set them back.

The white community is a little different, when we see abuses of power we want them to go down, white or otherwise. Michael Milken, Kenneth Lay, Kozlowski, Martha Stewart, etc, we're okay with them serving their time. When Britney, Paris, Jen and Brad, etc, are acting up we're happy to see them exposed and lampooned. I don't pay much mind to the latter group one way or another, but you get my drift.

Now I understand that blacks feel their image has been exploited and abused for generations and you can't afford to see it messed with any more, so I get the disconnect there, but I also think there are times it's prudent to set the record straight and say we're not gonna stand for the nonsense WITHIN our community anymore either.

Whether this is actually a case that warrants that choice or not is what I guess we are dissecting. I'm not sure that it is, but this is the perspective from which I've been looking at it.

Let me hastily write this.

African American youth are hardly the only group susceptible to Isiah's "quasi-approval," although their initiation into a false cammeraderie bound by the notion that racism can be inserted in unrelated situations with impunity to mask other injustice is especially dangerous. Part of the reason why I was differentiating between whether Isiah is a role model and whether his comments themselves are influential is because the audience for the latter is far broader. It includes whites and blacks, men and women, adults and youth etc. I admit, though, that judging the scope of the injurious remarks is difficult.

Issue no. 2 - The concern for the African American image is overblown in this scenario. Remember that both the plaintiff and primary defendants are black. I anticipate the counter-arguments that 1) negative press usually has a greater impact 2) the Anucha "incident" may be generalized by other races to redirect sexism as a black phenomenon. Without the time to further elaborate, however, I contend that "hanging Anucha out to dry" has a more serious and damaging impact on the image of black women. And a more damaging impact on the dynamic between black men and black women.

code - you deserve to be commended you for your ability to tackle a difficult subject with a stlye and substance that is both patient, able to roll with the punches and based on keen insights from your experience and education.

Killa, too.

This means nothing until Misterearl admits that he lives for my keen insights.