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Instead of Bashing Marbury and The Knicks, Why Not Simply Take A Vacation?
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misterearl
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7/24/2007  12:01 PM
"what we have here is a failure to communicate"

Solace - intentionally misunderstanding your posts is the farthest thing from my warped agenda. You really don't matter that much. None of us do.

Perhaps if the points were made with better clarity we would all benefit from a more productive discussion

but what do I know?

why not simply take a vacation?
once a knick always a knick
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Solace
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7/24/2007  12:04 PM
Posted by misterearl:

my warped agenda

So you admit it!

I win!

[Edited by - Solace on Jul 24 2007 12:04 PM]
Wishing everyone well. I enjoyed posting here for a while, but as I matured I realized this forum isn't for me. We all evolve. Thanks for the memories everyone.
Bippity10
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7/24/2007  12:04 PM
Posted by misterearl:

Bippity - perhaps team-building is not a one year exercise as some would like to believe

perhaps there was more collateral damage to the fabric of the Knicks roster than simply the players Layden acquired. There was a void in leadership.

Those that want to discount the performances of the Summer Knicks are missing the focal point of rebuilding entirely. Rebuilding a team psyche is as important as rebuidling the superficial stat column.

The Real GM types who want instant talent upgrades for dreck miss the point about setting a positive collective tone that can override the flawed personalities. Ever notice that whoever the vintage Celtics plugged in, from Bill Walton to Dennis Johnson, conformed to the franchise mantra?

My citing the Summer Knicks is less about statistics than it is about playing personality and professional demeanor on the court. People can bash the Summer Knicks all they want as that ignorant agenda is only based on throwing dirt balls.

What I saw in person was a young bunch of guys going about their business, from the moment they enetered a very informal gym until they left, in a professional manner. They didn't run a layup line, they ran footwork drills. There was no joking.

In don't see a problem with that.

And once again you make your post based on the assumption that I am disagreeing with you. I saw everything you see. I am excited about the young guys. I want them to achieve. They have an attitude that we have lacked for years. Nthing you say is foreign to me. But the conversation seems to have moved towards the comparitive success of Isiah and Layden. I contend that neither has shown us tangible results. Layden's results are complete and obvious. Isiah is incomplete. So far Isiah has shown us yearly promise. Yearly addition in terms of talent. But no results. In the end the results are what matters. Until then, all it is, is you and I talking about how great our team could be.

Isiah has been here 3 years. Eventually he has to show some progress in terms of on the floor. How many years are injuries, coaches, new players, new systems and fans going to be used as an excuse. At what date as a fan is it okay for me to ask for results????

Two years ago we were better than a 23 win team, yet won 23 games. Last year we were better than a 33 win team and yet still won 33 games. Based on sheer talent, I look at this roster and my expectations are as high as anyone on this board. Talentwise I do not see how this team is not a playoff team. At worst a .500 team. If we come in with another 33 win record what will the excuse be. When do the results have to match up with the talent? What year is it okay for me to ask for this? Year 5, 6, 7? When can Isiah be judged by wins? My expectations each year have not been realistic. AS a matter of fact guys like you and Nixluva usually predict more wins than me and call me a pessimist. So if Isiah's team's results can't even match my "pessimistic" prediction than why can't the GM be judged on those results. Or will it be like last year where the "lovers" predict astronomical results and call the "haters" pessimists for predicting more conservative results. And then make excuses and call the "haters" impatient when those conservative results aren't met.

It's so confusing to me.

[Edited by - bippity10 on 24-07-2007 12:31 PM]
I just hope that people will like me
misterearl
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7/24/2007  12:07 PM
Solace - that's right. You win.

Because it's all about winning in New York

Rebuild my butt.
once a knick always a knick
Solace
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7/24/2007  12:11 PM
Posted by misterearl:

Solace - that's right. You win.

Because it's all about winning in New York

Rebuild my butt.

Nice comeback.

I agree about the failure to communicate at some level, but honestly, through the thousands of posts we've read from each other, I'm not sure how else to phrase things. Even if you understood, I doubt you'd agree.
Wishing everyone well. I enjoyed posting here for a while, but as I matured I realized this forum isn't for me. We all evolve. Thanks for the memories everyone.
misterearl
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7/24/2007  12:17 PM
bippity - I'm on your side. We want the same thing.

Forget the arbitrary, personal expectations. No one has a clue of what to expect. Anything can happen and in New York you can always expect the uunexpected. I will gurantee one thing, this Knicks roster will be fun to watch mature and grow.

You are free to demand tangible results in the win column at any given moment. All I'm sayin' is that in the real world of the NBA, not in a fantasy league, it happens gradually and over a series of moves that culminate in proceeding in the correct direction.

The direction of being a winner.

Anyone who simply wants to grumble and bitch and moan through the process, and it IS a painful and unpredictible process, is a putz. No one has a crystal ball of perfect chess moves that could guarantee the proper path in 2004. No one.

Not even Isiah Thomas.

All we can demand is that Zeke demands excellence from his assistants and players, stays aggressive with potential communications with other executives, remains true to his private vision and does his homework on young talent.

Enjoy the ride
once a knick always a knick
misterearl
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7/24/2007  12:18 PM
Soolace - the point is not to agree but to share opinion

The fact we maintain a dialogue is the cool part
once a knick always a knick
COSSUCKS
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7/24/2007  12:26 PM
Posted by Bippity10:
Posted by misterearl:

Bippity - perhaps team-building is not a one year exercise as some would like to believe

perhaps there was more collateral damage to the fabric of the Knicks roster than simply the players Layden acquired. There was a void in leadership.

Those that want to discount the performances of the Summer Knicks are missing the focal point of rebuilding entirely. Rebuilding a team psyche is as important as rebuidling the superficial stat column.

The Real GM types who want instant talent upgrades for dreck miss the point about setting a positive collective tone that can override the flawed personalities. Ever notice that whoever the vintage Celtics plugged in, from Bill Walton to Dennis Johnson, conformed to the franchise mantra?

My citing the Summer Knicks is less about statistics than it is about playing personality and professional demeanor on the court. People can bash the Summer Knicks all they want as that ignorant agenda is only based on throwing dirt balls.

What I saw in person was a young bunch of guys going about their business, from the moment they enetered a very informal gym until they left, in a professional manner. They didn't run a layup line, they ran footwork drills. There was no joking.

In don't see a problem with that.
Isiah has been here 3 years. Eventually he has to show some progress in terms of on the floor. How many years are injuries, coaches, new players, new systems and fans going to be used as an excuse. At what date as a fan is it okay for me to ask for results????

Two years ago we were better than a 23 win team, yet won 23 games. Last year we were better than a 33 win team and yet still won 33 games. Based on sheer talent, I look at this roster and my expectations are as high as anyone on this board. Talentwise I do not see how this team is not a playoff team. At worst a .500 team. If we come in with another 33 win record what will the excuse be. When do the results have to match up with the talent? What year is it okay for me to ask for this? Year 5, 6, 7? When can Isiah be judged by wins?

Picture a high performance 6 cyl sports car. It should be doing 0-60 in 5 seconds flat. It has a bad spark plug. So its stumbling and misfiring to a time of 8 seconds in the 60. Does that mean the whole car needs to be junked or that bad plug just needs to be replaced?
nixluva
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7/24/2007  12:33 PM
The 1st year and a half was a waste, but since then Isiah has been remaking the team. We wanted LB to establish a base and allow the team to grow as the season moved along. That didn't happen and what's worse the team lost far too many games for the talent they had. But it wasn't really about the number of wins. We wanted to see order established.

Moving ahead to this past season, we had to start from scratch again. The important thing is that we could see the team making some improvement last year, this year should be another step up and hopefully that will continue the year after. Isn't that what we want to happen? So what's the problem?

I think despite the team not winning at the rate we may have wanted, the overall direction of the team is a good one. I think we would've been ahead of this current pace if the LB thing didn't happen. Last year the team was making progress. To deny that is to simply LIE cuz the evidence is there that the team was getting better progressively as the season went along. That is up until the injuries mounted. Now some of you don't want to acknowledge that and that's your right, but many of us can see that the team was getting better not worse.

misterearl
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7/24/2007  12:33 PM
Cosucks - c'mon dude, piece of cake

you "blow it up"
once a knick always a knick
Bippity10
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7/24/2007  12:36 PM
What are you guys talking about? Not one moment did I mention junking the team, or win now at all costs. What I stated was that neither Isiah nor Layden has shown us tangible on the floor results. Layden was a miserable failure. Isiah has won less games than Layden. So again, if Isiah keeps adding young talent and the team continues to win 33 games at what point does the "bitching" become honest opinion.

Isiah has drafted remarkably. There is no need to junk the team like Cossucks seems to say I am suggesting. There is no hang Isiah comment coming from me. Have that conversation with someone else. I am simply saying that Isiah has not shown results on the floor. And until he does, whether that takes 1 month, 1 year, 5 years, or 10 years I will not applaud him for showing tangible results and outdoing Layden. At the moment they both have combined for 6 years of losing. Isiah still can change that. But so far he hasn't. I hope like you, that begins to change one of these days.
I just hope that people will like me
Bippity10
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7/24/2007  12:40 PM
Say all you want about the rookies and what they will do for us. Our current core is Marbury, Curry, Zach, Craw, Q, Lee and Balkamn etc. They are for the most part young, and here for a long while. This is Isiah's core whether you beleive it or not. They have the talent to outdo 33 wins and get into the playoffs today. But as usual, the "true optimists" among us are already trying to find reasons to lower expectations. And "pessimists" who have high expectations of the team are called "haters".

Does anyone else see how weird this is?
I just hope that people will like me
Allanfan20
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7/24/2007  12:46 PM
Just gonzo Bip.
“Whenever I’m about to do something, I think ‘Would an idiot do that?’ and if they would, I do NOT do that thing.”- Dwight Schrute
Solace
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7/24/2007  12:48 PM
Posted by Bippity10:

Say all you want about the rookies and what they will do for us. Our current core is Marbury, Curry, Zach, Craw, Q, Lee and Balkamn etc. They are for the most part young, and here for a long while. This is Isiah's core whether you beleive it or not. They have the talent to outdo 33 wins and get into the playoffs today. But as usual, the "true optimists" among us are already trying to find reasons to lower expectations. And "pessimists" who have high expectations of the team are called "haters".

Does anyone else see how weird this is?

Yes. Very weird. I think they should win at least 43 games. However, if/when they win 37 games, we'll hear reasons why Isiah needs one more year. Didn't he need one more year last year too? And the year before?
Wishing everyone well. I enjoyed posting here for a while, but as I matured I realized this forum isn't for me. We all evolve. Thanks for the memories everyone.
misterearl
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7/24/2007  1:00 PM
Solace - bump it, why not give Isiah Thomas ten years?

what's the rush if the franchise is finally on the disciplined path of building by procuring the best young talent for the first time in forty years?
once a knick always a knick
misterearl
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7/24/2007  1:01 PM
think of it this way

if my crystal ball ain't broke

by 2013 Wilson Chandler will be a five year NBA veteran
once a knick always a knick
BasketballJones
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7/24/2007  1:04 PM
Posted by nixluva:

The 1st year and a half was a waste, but since then Isiah has been remaking the team. We wanted LB to establish a base and allow the team to grow as the season moved along. That didn't happen and what's worse the team lost far too many games for the talent they had. But it wasn't really about the number of wins. We wanted to see order established.

Moving ahead to this past season, we had to start from scratch again. The important thing is that we could see the team making some improvement last year, this year should be another step up and hopefully that will continue the year after. Isn't that what we want to happen? So what's the problem?

I think despite the team not winning at the rate we may have wanted, the overall direction of the team is a good one. I think we would've been ahead of this current pace if the LB thing didn't happen. Last year the team was making progress. To deny that is to simply LIE cuz the evidence is there that the team was getting better progressively as the season went along. That is up until the injuries mounted. Now some of you don't want to acknowledge that and that's your right, but many of us can see that the team was getting better not worse.


Right. The first year we were still dealing with the fallout from Layden's decisions, so that doesn't count. Then we had to deal with the Larry Brown fiasco. That set us back about two years. So really, this is Isiah's first year. Cut the guy some slack already!

[Edited by - basketballjones on 07-24-2007 13:04]
https:// It's not so hard.
Solace
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7/24/2007  1:06 PM
Posted by misterearl:

think of it this way

if my crystal ball ain't broke

by 2013 Wilson Chandler will be a five year NBA veteran

Unless he's out of the league. But more to the point, and...?
Wishing everyone well. I enjoyed posting here for a while, but as I matured I realized this forum isn't for me. We all evolve. Thanks for the memories everyone.
misterearl
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7/24/2007  1:08 PM
BasketballJones - that's the spirit

Isiah is just getting warmed up

Seven more years... seven more years...!

(one Mississippi... two Mississippi... three Mississippi...)
once a knick always a knick
Solace
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7/24/2007  1:09 PM
Posted by misterearl:

Solace - bump it, why not give Isiah Thomas ten years?

what's the rush if the franchise is finally on the disciplined path of building by procuring the best young talent for the first time in forty years?

Because I don't want to wait until I'm as old as Isiah before I see my first Knicks championship?
Wishing everyone well. I enjoyed posting here for a while, but as I matured I realized this forum isn't for me. We all evolve. Thanks for the memories everyone.
Instead of Bashing Marbury and The Knicks, Why Not Simply Take A Vacation?

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