Posted by misterearl:

CodeUn - you ask a lot of questions.

I suppose when someone calls himself The Answer Man, some people would be inclined to believe he thinks he owns all the answers. On the contrary grasshopper, the only thing I know for certain is that I will never stop clinging to my Camby Sheik Towel, win or lose.

My optimisn as a fan is not based on some quantitative or qualitative reasoning, or breakdown of trends or strategy. NO my brotha, far from it.

My optimism is based in watching the Knicks mount a spirited comeback against the San Francisco Warriors, in the sixties, led by Wilt Chamberlain, while sitting with my Dad in the upper deck of the old Garden.

The place rocked that afternoon as the score was not nearly as important as sharing that bright moment with the man I looked up to as a kid.

You ask "Down 1 with 8 seconds left, what play do you run against a team like Dallas, hypothetically?" and all I can answer is hypothetically it doesn't matter. You run a play to spring a man into an open space, and hopefully Dirk or Dwight Howard is not the defender.

You ask how many shots Marbury should get? I answer the number of shots Marbury will get is irrelevant to my enjoyment of watching a TEAM game. Marbury "gets" as many shots as he needs to discover his rhythm on a given night and if he is off, he shares the ball with the man with the hotter hand.

For that same reason, the selective and personal idea of "liking" a Knick like David Lee, while wanting his brother Channing Frye, another work-in-progress, instantly traded is foreign to me. Frye, once he finds his confidence and voice could turn out to be a better player than Tim Duncan. At this point, it is all speculation and we can only hope his noble pedigree lends itself to hard work and sacrifice.

I like any player who wears orange and blue. Hell, i despised Jalen Rose as a Pacer but wanted him to succeed as a Knick. Knicks fans remember the ugly faces he made during the playoffs. Now that he is wherever he is, he can eat dirt.

Patience? If you've followed these Knicks for as long as I have, you understand it is a deliberate and painful process, where the championship ring is as elusive as Halle Berry's digits.

djsu understands. While we shared section 404 one afternoon, our personal opinions were secondary to just enjoying a few hours of diversion from the world outside The Garden. We laughed, joked and cheered. At one point we even stood together and high-fived a Knicks run.

That same afternoon I remembered the feeling of sitting with my Dad and cheering loudly with 18,000 total strangers.

What else matters?

[Edited by - misterearl on 03-19-2007 9:48 PM]

Earl, having emotional ties to the team, as we all do, doesn't mean you can't enjoy debating strategic details. I would think that scrutinizing every detail would add another aspect to your enjoyment of this team. Naturally, that is what we do here day after day on this message board.

Being a fan is in many ways like being an addict. The highs that we get from wins keep us coming back regularly. And associated memories get tied up in the process. Like the poignant ones you described. "Addicts" like us need highs in between the games - some, like me, try to get that high by projecting an unpcoming victory based on convincing in-game specifics. Believing that our insight is fail-proof allows us to convince ourselves that the "high" is predictable and affords us a sense of control.

Others, like you, can revert to your expansive Knicks history and indulge flashbacks of a more prominent period. Neither is "right" and both are a means to the same end. In a way, you are among the best fans - your Knicks high comes regardless of future outcome and your loyalty is driven by past incentive which can't be eroded.

The problem is that your "defense mechanism" lends itself towards instant gratification. You don't have to work for your "high" with analysis and trade proposals and a salary cap breakdown. You just go back to that special day against the San Fransisco Warriors. Writing an analysis is foreign to you, you say its "irrelevant." The fact is that it is relevant, it just takes more work. It is more frustrating than merely describing a euphoric memory and it goes against the denial that abets your "high." As a result, you completely avoid the negative realities, specific or general, with this team. And there remains no reason to confront these specifics when they simply take away from your "high." After all, "its only entertainment" right?

Hopefully, you can appreciate that, while a Knick comeback against the San Fransisco Warriors may be an important memory for you, it has nothing to do with the current situation. Old memories and rah-rah cliches aren't a good gameplan and aren't good arguments against the deficiencies of this team. What compounds matters is that a message board is more effective in conveying the logic of play-by-play debate than the mysticism and euphoria in a lot of your posts. Its hard to post when you can't offer specific facts for your opinions.

Like Blueseats said, it ain't personal by any means. Every once in a while, even I have flashbacks of a particular game 7.

Posted by codeunknown:

Posted by misterearl:

CodeUn - you ask a lot of questions.

I suppose when someone calls himself The Answer Man, some people would be inclined to believe he thinks he owns all the answers. On the contrary grasshopper, the only thing I know for certain is that I will never stop clinging to my Camby Sheik Towel, win or lose.

My optimisn as a fan is not based on some quantitative or qualitative reasoning, or breakdown of trends or strategy. NO my brotha, far from it.

My optimism is based in watching the Knicks mount a spirited comeback against the San Francisco Warriors, in the sixties, led by Wilt Chamberlain, while sitting with my Dad in the upper deck of the old Garden.

The place rocked that afternoon as the score was not nearly as important as sharing that bright moment with the man I looked up to as a kid.

You ask "Down 1 with 8 seconds left, what play do you run against a team like Dallas, hypothetically?" and all I can answer is hypothetically it doesn't matter. You run a play to spring a man into an open space, and hopefully Dirk or Dwight Howard is not the defender.

You ask how many shots Marbury should get? I answer the number of shots Marbury will get is irrelevant to my enjoyment of watching a TEAM game. Marbury "gets" as many shots as he needs to discover his rhythm on a given night and if he is off, he shares the ball with the man with the hotter hand.

For that same reason, the selective and personal idea of "liking" a Knick like David Lee, while wanting his brother Channing Frye, another work-in-progress, instantly traded is foreign to me. Frye, once he finds his confidence and voice could turn out to be a better player than Tim Duncan. At this point, it is all speculation and we can only hope his noble pedigree lends itself to hard work and sacrifice.

I like any player who wears orange and blue. Hell, i despised Jalen Rose as a Pacer but wanted him to succeed as a Knick. Knicks fans remember the ugly faces he made during the playoffs. Now that he is wherever he is, he can eat dirt.

Patience? If you've followed these Knicks for as long as I have, you understand it is a deliberate and painful process, where the championship ring is as elusive as Halle Berry's digits.

djsu understands. While we shared section 404 one afternoon, our personal opinions were secondary to just enjoying a few hours of diversion from the world outside The Garden. We laughed, joked and cheered. At one point we even stood together and high-fived a Knicks run.

That same afternoon I remembered the feeling of sitting with my Dad and cheering loudly with 18,000 total strangers.

What else matters?

[Edited by - misterearl on 03-19-2007 9:48 PM]

Earl, having emotional ties to the team, as we all do, doesn't mean you can't enjoy debating strategic details. I would think that scrutinizing every detail would add another aspect to your enjoyment of this team. Naturally, that is what we do here day after day on this message board.

Being a fan is in many ways like being an addict. The highs that we get from wins keep us coming back regularly. And associated memories get tied up in the process. Like the poignant ones you described. "Addicts" like us need highs in between the games - some, like me, try to get that high by projecting an unpcoming victory based on convincing in-game specifics. Believing that our insight is fail-proof allows us to convince ourselves that the "high" is predictable and affords us a sense of control.

Others, like you, can revert to your expansive Knicks history and indulge flashbacks of a more prominent period. Neither is "right" and both are a means to the same end. In a way, you are among the best fans - your Knicks high comes regardless of future outcome and your loyalty is driven by past incentive which can't be eroded.

The problem is that your "defense mechanism" lends itself towards instant gratification. You don't have to work for your "high" with analysis and trade proposals and a salary cap breakdown. You just go back to that special day against the San Fransisco Warriors. Writing an analysis is foreign to you, you say its "irrelevant." The fact is that it is relevant, it just takes more work. It is more frustrating than merely describing a euphoric memory and it goes against the denial that abets your "high." As a result, you completely avoid the negative realities, specific or general, with this team. And there remains no reason to confront these specifics when they simply take away from your "high." After all, "its only entertainment" right?

Hopefully, you can appreciate that, while a Knick comeback against the San Fransisco Warriors may be an important memory for you, it has nothing to do with the current situation. Old memories and rah-rah cliches aren't a good gameplan and aren't good arguments against the deficiencies of this team. What compounds matters is that a message board is more effective in conveying the logic of play-by-play debate than the mysticism and euphoria in a lot of your posts. Its hard to post when you can't offer specific facts for your opinions.

Like Blueseats said, it ain't personal by any means. Every once in a while, even I have flashbacks of a particular game 7.

Standing Ovation!

Code, if I should ever piss you off, please let me know so I can apologize.

Analysis?

Curry is out. Frye goes for 30 tonight.

Posted by misterearl:

One more thing

Strategic details and personal bias should not be confused. Please don't lecture me about "specific facts" when most of the childlike tripe that is posted is someone trying to outshout someone else.

"Hey, if I was the GM I woulda done this..."

"eddy cuury is a fat slob..."

"Marbury should keep his freakin' mouth shut!..."

"I hate Isiah Thomas because he ..."

"David Lee is the Knicks best player because..."

"Channing Frye will never be an All-star..."

"I don't like this guy... or that guy..."

Specific facts?

The Knicks monthy record has improved steadily this season.

They now miss three, potentially four, players with Eddy Curry hurting. The head coach must revise his game plan on the fly, motivate the troops and prepare them to play the best team in the league.

Those are the facts

[Edited by - misterearl on 03-20-2007 3:44 PM]

You forgot One!

You don't play amateur GM but you question the trading of Ariza by the coach?

How do you know what Ariza was doing in practice?

Anyway...it would be a pretty boring place to be if no one had any different opinions or one couldn't take some liberties in forming one.

Posted by misterearl:


I don't look to basketball for gratification and definately NOT instant gratification. You do not see me bleating about wanting a championship as soon as the next miracle trade can be made for one reason... I understand the process for ANY franchise requires stability, a focus, and patience.

When the Knicks win I feel better.

[Edited by - misterearl on 03-20-2007 3:33 PM]

Just a couple things, Earl. How you feel is how you feel. And thats fine. But you should be able to see the contradiction above. If you didn't get gratification from the Knicks, you wouldn't be a fan.

And knowing the fact that patience is required for a championship is an entirely different concept than exhibiting patience and thought in your discussion of the Knicks. Writing "Curry out, Frye goes for 30" is a blank opinion just pumps you up. That you absolutely never write derogatory comments about the Knicks (except Kurt Thomas) doesn't show your patience as much as your denial, in my opinion. Its easy to be patient while acknowedging a deficiency here and there.

In terms of lecturing people on in-game specifics, I think we can all agree that the more specifics you have, the more valid your position is. Most of the biases of other posters you posted usually come with some summary of the players' performances. Its odd that you would complain about "lecturing" when you're among the most guilty on that count. Tell me, whose money is it again?

Andrew

The Ariza trade is one I would like to have a do-over on. Along with the trade of Camby and Nene for McDyess. But hindsight os 20-20. I look forward to the next unexpected draft selection in 2007.

Allow me to clarify. I don't play "amateur GM" by offering up one-sided, fantasy deals that ignore the reasons why the trade partner would consumate said deal.



I totally agree...it WOULD be a pretty boring place to be if no one had any different opinions or one couldn't take some liberties in forming one. Where did I read a requirement to post that a person had to pass a Red On Roundball IQ test?

There are so many more, much larger, issues in play that affect any passionate discussion of a professional sports franchise.


"Is this America?"

- Fannie Lou Hamer


[Edited by - misterearl on 03-20-2007 11:30 PM]

Posted by misterearl:

Code - speakiing of player performances, I missed the Dallas game.

what happened?

Marbury had a splendid game.

Cultural Change

Code - thank you for the insightful game analysis.

Meanwhile, back to the conversation. I have always contended there are much larger issues in play at 2 Penn Plaza than simple in-game analysis. The historic fractures between managament on the floor and in the upper level suites has done more damage to the franchise than any play calling.

Holzman and McGuire did not get along. Bianchi and McLeod were instant disasters. Ernie was stabbed in the back by Van Gundy.

Mark Cuban offered his "analysis" in the NYTimes:

>>Mark Cuban is renowned as a risk-taker, so it should perhaps come as no surprise that he endorsed the Knicks’ much-criticized decision to extend Isiah Thomas’s contract. “It’s not just about, ‘Should he stay or should he go?’ It’s ‘Who’s next?’ ” said Cuban, the Mavericks’ owner. “Who’s next isn’t always who’s better. Working with a guy and letting him develop and letting him get to a point where he can succeed, and giving him the tools he needs, in the N.B.A., is a far better strategy than just saying, ‘O.K., next, next, next.’ “ Cuban praised the Knicks’ progress. He said their better chemistry and camaraderie was evident. “As an owner, I see that that’s a cultural change.

That’s going from a place where people didn’t want to be, where there was so much drama, and no one wanted to be, to a scenario where people want to be here and are glad to be here. That’s huge.”<<

Huge.

It is huge, earl, it really is. But it's important to note that the drama preceded LB. We shouldn't forget that the second half of the prior season (remember the 2-15 January) was pretty much as bad as the one with Brown. And LB had nothing to do with the turmoil upstairs between Dolan/Isiah and Marv, team doctors, the marketing dept, etc.

In my mind Isiah himself was at the forefront of ALL the drama within this organization (especially considering he brought in such headaches as Lenny, LB, Marbury, Penny and Francis.) Presumably, now that he's cleaned house and everyone at all ranks meet his standards the organization can settle down under his Emperorship, but personally I am concerned that this team is so highly dependent upon his singular authority, and without him all chaos could run free again. I'm also concerned that we have such an emotional and grandiose petit tyrant for our chief executive.

Just feels like we stand on a fragile precipice where everything has been stacked -by Isiah- to require that only he can keep it from falling into a bottomless chasm. "Vote for me and I'll set you free. Vote for the other guy and this castle made of sand will crumble into the sea."