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800 pound gorilla thread: LB case to be decided:
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joec32033
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9/21/2006  12:23 PM
Posted by BlueSeats:

In all actuality Brown typically produces an increase in wins his first season. His teams may struggle early, but they make up for it after guys "get it' by finishing strong.

------

Knicks President Isiah Thomas says the poor showing hasn't shaken his confidence in Brown because he's looking at the bigger picture.

"He believes that he makes and can make a difference at the end of games, and he can," Thomas says. "What Coach is doing with our guys and what I'm seeing now is some semblance of a team playing better.

"I didn't hire Larry Brown for this year. We hired him for five years. We knew we had a lot of young players. We wanted him to teach them to play."

Despite the Knicks' struggles, the feeling around the NBA is that Brown will get it turned around. Many say it will be sooner rather than later, noting his track record. They are mindful that in his previous stops, he traditionally got off to rocky starts. But by season's end his teams were forces to be reckoned with.

Davis, a member of Brown's Pacers teams, constantly reminds his teammates of how Brown turned around things in Indiana. "From the outside looking in it may look helter-skelter," Davis says. "Until he figures out what's the best way for this team to be successful, he's going to keep trying different things. I go around preaching for guys to be patient."

Pacers CEO Donnie Walsh says the Knicks' recent six-game winning streak is a sign of what's ahead if the players will stay the course.

"When they hired him and people called me, I said that in the beginning you guys will be writing stuff (like), 'Oh, God. It's awful. It's terrible.' Then all of a sudden, they'll start winning," Walsh says. "That's what I'm seeing. It doesn't surprise me."

Walsh, who also was Brown's assistant with the Denver Nuggets, says Brown's teams usually struggle early because of the way Brown sees the game. "He has a definite idea of how he wants to play, and the players don't. He's trying to get them into a picture that he sees that they don't see yet."

Marbury can attest to that. He never fully adjusted to Brown's system during the 2004 Summer Olympics. However, he says he has a better grasp now of what Brown is trying to get done.

"Coach's visions are there, and he's like, 'We got to do this right now,' " Marbury says. "We're not up to speed with him right then and there. But ... the only way we're going to go forward is by having confidence in him."

Says Brown: "They're starting to figure it out. I see a light at the end of the tunnel. I don't know how long this tunnel is. (But) I'm really encouraged with what I'm seeing."

Turnaround king
Larry Brown has the reputation of making swift progress in the teams he takes on. The record improved for all but one of the seven professional teams he coached for the first time from the start of a season over the previous year (an average of 11.3 more wins):

1styear Team Record Prev.year's record Change

1972-73 Carolina (ABA) 57-27 35-49 +22
1974-75 Denver (ABA) 65-19 37-47 +28
1981-82 New Jersey 44-38 24-58 +20
1988-89 San Antonio 21-61 31-51 -10
1993-94 Indiana 47-35 41-41 +6
1997-98 Philadelphia 31-51 22-60 +9
2003-04 Detroit 54-28 50-32 +4


-------

In truth, I think a lot of guys were getting it (Lee, Frye, Nate, Malik, Curry, Richardson, Qyntel) before things feel apart with Marbury's injury, ADs suspension and trade, the harassment suit, and then the Marbury mutiny. But the guys who were capable of getting it simply didn't comprise the power base of the team (Marbury) and team chemistry was simply too fractured by then. Just as it was the year before. Diverse agendas, lack of caring, personal sob stories, managerial distractions, turf wars, etc, were simply too great to overcome.

brown's detractors seem to insinuate Brown came here with the intention to uproot Isiah and sabotaged the team to do so. I just don't believe that. I believe that here, like everywhere else, Brown would have turned things around pretty quickly were it not for the resistance of a few key protagonists. When it became clear those protagonists would not stand down, and would not be removed, is when Brown's efforts became futile and his departure a forgone conclusion.

People try to suggest last season was a uniquely Larry Brown experience, like the kind of thing that could only occur because of his defects, but the truth of the story is that last year had as much in common with Isiah's team's history with Lenny Wilkens and herb Williams, as it did with any of Brown's other stops.

The year prior Brown was in the finals for the second consecutive year (3rd time in 5 years), while the Knicks under Lenny and Herb were already beating their path to the gutter with abominable chemistry, disinterest, and woeful effort and execution.

Damn you, Blue. I just posted something that explains this exact thing, and you freakin' beat me to it!
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BlueSeats
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9/21/2006  12:32 PM
Posted by wsdm:
An average of +8 wins. That sounds slightly above average. (You usually fire a coach when you severely underachieve and have nowhere but up to go.)

I've not done the math but the article claims it averages out to 11.3, at least before here. That's across 30 years of coaching.

get a grip. If that were remotely average, the average coach would also be in the HOF.

We're hoping for an 11+ turn around this year, not because isiah is an average coach, but because last year is considered one of the historically worst failures in professional sports.

Sheesh, as if any old coach can average 11 game turnarounds...

oohah
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9/21/2006  1:21 PM
Understood. But the fact remains that nowhere is anyone taking into consideration the team he took over and where they were the season before. You take over a god team that just needs a better coach (a la the Pistons), your first year will be better. You also have to take into account the how receptive the players are to your system.

1972 Cougars- 35-49/1973 Cougars- 57-27 - Major difference other than Brown is that the best player on the 72 squad was the third best player on the 73 squad.

1974 Nuggets (Oohah your info is off, LB was coaching the Nuggets for 2 years in the ABA starting in 1975 before they went to the NBA and he produced the record you listed)-37-47/ 1975 Nuggets 65-19 - Once again, most of the top 4 players are totally different than the year before.

1981 Nets-25-58/1982 Nets 44-38- Once again a totally different roster from the season before.

1988 Spurs-31/51/1989 Spurs 21/61- Many of the same players from the year before. 1990 Spurs-56-26 Totally different roster.

1991 Clips-31-51/1992 Clips(3 coaches in one season-Larry being the last one) LB's record-23/12. The first coach MIke Schular was 21-24, the next coach was 1-1, then LB. It was a decent team.

1993 Indy 41-41 under Bob Hill/ 1994 Indy 47-35. A good team, A few Key changes were made to that team (Schrempf out McKey in).

1997 Philly- 22-60/1998 Philly 31-51. Major roster changes when LB took over.

Detroit we all know about them. And now us.

It seems the only way there IS a quick turnaround is if you get LB players he needs or wants.

Thanks for the correction Joe, , I copied and pasted wrong.

Again, my statement only had 2 points: That it isn't true that he always has a very bad first season, therefore last year's debacle was to be expected.

The second point is that his record rises and falls in accordance with better or worse rosters. You described that as getting "HIS" players, I don't think that is accurate, I think of it as getting a better quality of player, not nessacarily his hand picked players. The best example of this would be in San Antonio, where he went from 21 wins to 56 with the addition of David Robinson.

All this begs the question: How good should the Knicks have been last year? I say they should have been mediocre with any kind of decent coaching job. Then this year we would be building on that to become mediocre/good instead of just mediocre.

LB's swift progress is interesting, (And as you pointed out coincided with leaps in talent in many cases.) but that isn't what happened here, and it is not the same situation. He needed to deal with what he had in order to get what he wanted.

oohah

Good luck Mike D'Antoni, 'cause you ain't never seen nothing like this before!
nixluva
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9/21/2006  1:27 PM
LB's 11 game improvement avg. is why he was brought in and why expectations were higher. The thing is that it was expected that the Knicks might start slowly, but then pick up as the season went along. The problems were too big to overcome this time. The players weren't as cooperative. Players came in out of shape. There were too many new players. We had a lot of youth and inexperience, mixed with old guys whose best days were behind them. Plus some key players who had never really had success, tho they have lots of talent. On top of that the coach didn't do a good job, at all, of working with the team. He seemed to be distancing himself from the team as early as training camp. His "its them not me" attitude wasn't helpful in the least. His use of the players was atrocious. Still if he had lightened up on Steph, gone with the young guys more, stuck with a SL and Rotation long enough to let it jell, the team might have done better.

So instead of winning 10 more games than the previous year, we lost 10 more. This team is gonna have a huge turnaround not because the coach will be better, but the situation will be a better one. The team has added another good role player. This training camp will likely be more successful, with more players coming into camp in shape. The coach is a better FIT for the players. The players will not be strangers. The team will have CONSISTENCY which will greatly improve the chances for success. We won't be asking the players to do things they aren't capable of doing. Its just a better situation for success this year.
joec32033
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9/21/2006  2:03 PM
Posted by oohah:
Understood. But the fact remains that nowhere is anyone taking into consideration the team he took over and where they were the season before. You take over a god team that just needs a better coach (a la the Pistons), your first year will be better. You also have to take into account the how receptive the players are to your system.

1972 Cougars- 35-49/1973 Cougars- 57-27 - Major difference other than Brown is that the best player on the 72 squad was the third best player on the 73 squad.

1974 Nuggets (Oohah your info is off, LB was coaching the Nuggets for 2 years in the ABA starting in 1975 before they went to the NBA and he produced the record you listed)-37-47/ 1975 Nuggets 65-19 - Once again, most of the top 4 players are totally different than the year before.

1981 Nets-25-58/1982 Nets 44-38- Once again a totally different roster from the season before.

1988 Spurs-31/51/1989 Spurs 21/61- Many of the same players from the year before. 1990 Spurs-56-26 Totally different roster.

1991 Clips-31-51/1992 Clips(3 coaches in one season-Larry being the last one) LB's record-23/12. The first coach MIke Schular was 21-24, the next coach was 1-1, then LB. It was a decent team.

1993 Indy 41-41 under Bob Hill/ 1994 Indy 47-35. A good team, A few Key changes were made to that team (Schrempf out McKey in).

1997 Philly- 22-60/1998 Philly 31-51. Major roster changes when LB took over.

Detroit we all know about them. And now us.

It seems the only way there IS a quick turnaround is if you get LB players he needs or wants.

Thanks for the correction Joe, , I copied and pasted wrong.

Again, my statement only had 2 points: That it isn't true that he always has a very bad first season, therefore last year's debacle was to be expected.

The second point is that his record rises and falls in accordance with better or worse rosters. You described that as getting "HIS" players, I don't think that is accurate, I think of it as getting a better quality of player, not nessacarily his hand picked players. The best example of this would be in San Antonio, where he went from 21 wins to 56 with the addition of David Robinson.

All this begs the question: How good should the Knicks have been last year? I say they should have been mediocre with any kind of decent coaching job. Then this year we would be building on that to become mediocre/good instead of just mediocre.

LB's swift progress is interesting, (And as you pointed out coincided with leaps in talent in many cases.) but that isn't what happened here, and it is not the same situation. He needed to deal with what he had in order to get what he wanted.

oohah

Once again, I point to the strength of the GM and his willingness to tell Larry no, but to also get Larry the types of players he needs. Look at what Indy did with getting rid of Detlef Schrempf. SA added guys like Willie Anderson (a good defender),Vernon Maxwell(another good defender). Anderson and Maxwell were drafted in the 88 draft and Larry gave them big minutes. Obviously you had Robinson, too. Indy added McKey, Byron Scott, Haywood Workman, the Davis boys....We gave Larry what? Jalen Rose and Steve Francis halfway through the season? I see a difference.
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bigpimpin
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9/21/2006  3:12 PM
Forgive me, everyone. But since I don't feel like reviewing all 6 threads, could some kind poster give me a recap of what this thread is all about?

Thanks, in advance.
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martin
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9/21/2006  3:16 PM
Posted by bigpimpin:

Forgive me, everyone. But since I don't feel like reviewing all 6 threads, could some kind poster give me a recap of what this thread is all about?

Thanks, in advance.

off season babble. See 20 other threads on LB as reference duplicates.
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bigpimpin
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9/21/2006  3:23 PM
Will do. The "800-lb gorilla" caption sparked my curiousity. Age old trick eh
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wsdm
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9/21/2006  4:23 PM
Posted by BlueSeats:
Posted by wsdm:
An average of +8 wins. That sounds slightly above average. (You usually fire a coach when you severely underachieve and have nowhere but up to go.)

I've not done the math but the article claims it averages out to 11.3, at least before here. That's across 30 years of coaching.

get a grip. If that were remotely average, the average coach would also be in the HOF.

We're hoping for an 11+ turn around this year, not because isiah is an average coach, but because last year is considered one of the historically worst failures in professional sports.

Sheesh, as if any old coach can average 11 game turnarounds...

The article probably didn't count the Knicks season last year. I didn't say an 8 game improvement was average; I said it was a little above average. My guess is that average would be about 4.

[Edited by - wsdm on 09-21-2006 4:23 PM]
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martin
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9/21/2006  4:51 PM
Posted by wsdm:
Posted by BlueSeats:
Posted by wsdm:
An average of +8 wins. That sounds slightly above average. (You usually fire a coach when you severely underachieve and have nowhere but up to go.)

I've not done the math but the article claims it averages out to 11.3, at least before here. That's across 30 years of coaching.

get a grip. If that were remotely average, the average coach would also be in the HOF.

We're hoping for an 11+ turn around this year, not because isiah is an average coach, but because last year is considered one of the historically worst failures in professional sports.

Sheesh, as if any old coach can average 11 game turnarounds...

The article probably didn't count the Knicks season last year. I didn't say an 8 game improvement was average; I said it was a little above average. My guess is that average would be about 4.

[Edited by - wsdm on 09-21-2006 4:23 PM]

my guess is that the average would be about 0 or even less.
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nixluva
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9/21/2006  4:56 PM
No matter what, LB's impact should've been a positive one and not a net minus 10 games worse. He almost never does that, so we have to assume that he did something different this time. To simply assume that this team was so bad that it should only have won 23 games is crazy. We know that this team was far more talented than that. This is why I held LB most responsible. Usually the GREAT coach is a positive influence on a team. I don't think that all of the players started off saying i'm not gonna try to do what he's saying. Even if you say that about Steph it wouldn't explain why the whole team looked hesistant, lost and confused. Even if players came in out of shape or unprepared to play at the start, you'd assume that at some point they'd be able to get it together.

With most of these negative influences no longer happening. I expect a big turnaround by this team. There will still be issues, but nothing like what we saw last year. Most of the players really like each other and will pull together. This time with a coach that is supportive, but strong and consistent, I expect this team to have a good season. I can't wait for this season to get under way.
martin
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9/21/2006  5:36 PM
Posted by nixluva:

No matter what, LB's impact should've been a positive one and not a net minus 10 games worse. He almost never does that, so we have to assume that he did something different this time. To simply assume that this team was so bad that it should only have won 23 games is crazy. We know that this team was far more talented than that.


I don't make the same assumptions you do. For instance, how about the fact that the Knicks' best player (Marbury) was hurt for a significant amount of time? How about its star recruit (Curry) came into camp after a 6-month hiatus from basketball all-together and was out hurt for good parts of the season? How about the fact that AD was suspended and then traded half way into the season? How about the fact that 3 rookies were integrated and played significant time? How about the fact the Knicks' top rookie was hurt for the last 2 months of the season? How about the fact that Big Game is ****ing fat? How about the fact that Q, another starter, was hurt for most of the season? How about the fact that Franchise is a b!tch? How about the distraction of Anucha-gate?

LB didn't ask for those to happen.
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oohah
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9/21/2006  5:37 PM
Posted by martin:
Posted by bigpimpin:

Forgive me, everyone. But since I don't feel like reviewing all 6 threads, could some kind poster give me a recap of what this thread is all about?

Thanks, in advance.

off season babble. See 20 other threads on LB as reference duplicates.

HOW DARE YOU!!!

oohah



Good luck Mike D'Antoni, 'cause you ain't never seen nothing like this before!
martin
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9/21/2006  5:39 PM
Posted by oohah:
Posted by martin:
Posted by bigpimpin:

Forgive me, everyone. But since I don't feel like reviewing all 6 threads, could some kind poster give me a recap of what this thread is all about?

Thanks, in advance.

off season babble. See 20 other threads on LB as reference duplicates.

HOW DARE YOU!!!

oohah

there are also a lot of pretty pictures of asses by oohah

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9/21/2006  5:41 PM
Posted by martin:
Posted by nixluva:

No matter what, LB's impact should've been a positive one and not a net minus 10 games worse. He almost never does that, so we have to assume that he did something different this time. To simply assume that this team was so bad that it should only have won 23 games is crazy. We know that this team was far more talented than that.


I don't make the same assumptions you do. For instance, how about the fact that the Knicks' best player (Marbury) was hurt for a significant amount of time? How about its star recruit (Curry) came into camp after a 6-month hiatus from basketball all-together and was out hurt for good parts of the season? How about the fact that AD was suspended and then traded half way into the season? How about the fact that 3 rookies were integrated and played significant time? How about the fact the Knicks' top rookie was hurt for the last 2 months of the season? How about the fact that Big Game is ****ing fat? How about the fact that Q, another starter, was hurt for most of the season? How about the fact that Franchise is a b!tch? How about the distraction of Anucha-gate?

LB didn't ask for those to happen.

Good post Martin.
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oohah
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9/21/2006  5:41 PM
Posted by bigpimpin:

Will do. The "800-lb gorilla" caption sparked my curiousity. Age old trick eh



No trick at all. The reason I entitled it "800 pound gorrila thread" is that the LB case article had been on the site for a couple of days and nobody mentioned it, even though I knew everyone had seen it. Since this thread is now 6 pages long, obviously many people still had strong feelings about this topic, but nobody wanted to be the one to dredge up LB again.

So I bravely confronted the issue head on, and it has become a lively, yet civil, discussion.

oohah

Good luck Mike D'Antoni, 'cause you ain't never seen nothing like this before!
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9/21/2006  5:49 PM
Posted by joec32033:
Posted by oohah:
Understood. But the fact remains that nowhere is anyone taking into consideration the team he took over and where they were the season before. You take over a god team that just needs a better coach (a la the Pistons), your first year will be better. You also have to take into account the how receptive the players are to your system.

1972 Cougars- 35-49/1973 Cougars- 57-27 - Major difference other than Brown is that the best player on the 72 squad was the third best player on the 73 squad.

1974 Nuggets (Oohah your info is off, LB was coaching the Nuggets for 2 years in the ABA starting in 1975 before they went to the NBA and he produced the record you listed)-37-47/ 1975 Nuggets 65-19 - Once again, most of the top 4 players are totally different than the year before.

1981 Nets-25-58/1982 Nets 44-38- Once again a totally different roster from the season before.

1988 Spurs-31/51/1989 Spurs 21/61- Many of the same players from the year before. 1990 Spurs-56-26 Totally different roster.

1991 Clips-31-51/1992 Clips(3 coaches in one season-Larry being the last one) LB's record-23/12. The first coach MIke Schular was 21-24, the next coach was 1-1, then LB. It was a decent team.

1993 Indy 41-41 under Bob Hill/ 1994 Indy 47-35. A good team, A few Key changes were made to that team (Schrempf out McKey in).

1997 Philly- 22-60/1998 Philly 31-51. Major roster changes when LB took over.

Detroit we all know about them. And now us.

It seems the only way there IS a quick turnaround is if you get LB players he needs or wants.

Thanks for the correction Joe, , I copied and pasted wrong.

Again, my statement only had 2 points: That it isn't true that he always has a very bad first season, therefore last year's debacle was to be expected.

The second point is that his record rises and falls in accordance with better or worse rosters. You described that as getting "HIS" players, I don't think that is accurate, I think of it as getting a better quality of player, not nessacarily his hand picked players. The best example of this would be in San Antonio, where he went from 21 wins to 56 with the addition of David Robinson.

All this begs the question: How good should the Knicks have been last year? I say they should have been mediocre with any kind of decent coaching job. Then this year we would be building on that to become mediocre/good instead of just mediocre.

LB's swift progress is interesting, (And as you pointed out coincided with leaps in talent in many cases.) but that isn't what happened here, and it is not the same situation. He needed to deal with what he had in order to get what he wanted.

oohah

Once again, I point to the strength of the GM and his willingness to tell Larry no, but to also get Larry the types of players he needs. Look at what Indy did with getting rid of Detlef Schrempf. SA added guys like Willie Anderson (a good defender),Vernon Maxwell(another good defender). Anderson and Maxwell were drafted in the 88 draft and Larry gave them big minutes. Obviously you had Robinson, too. Indy added McKey, Byron Scott, Haywood Workman, the Davis boys....We gave Larry what? Jalen Rose and Steve Francis halfway through the season? I see a difference.



This is why I say LB is an impatient ass. He knew what he was getting into. He cannot realistically have expected to have the whole roster turned over during last year, or even by the end of the next. Still IT managed to get 2-3 players this summer that were right up LB's alley.

But in the meantime, he should have been doing everything in his power to make these players attractive to other teams so he could get the players he wanted, not exposing them and devaluing them.

He made his own bed.

oohah

Good luck Mike D'Antoni, 'cause you ain't never seen nothing like this before!
TrueBlue
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9/21/2006  5:56 PM
BlueSeats puts on a clinic as usual.

Seriously the Knick fan base overall has to improve it's over basketball intellect. Stop holding on to these perceived binkies in this organization. Marbury is a bum, always has been and although he's very talented in some respects the pill must be swallowed when it comes to him. Everyone knows Larry Brown stunk up the joint last yr but he deserved another shot. All Zeke and Dolan had to do was back Larry day-in and day-out and stop mettling with coaching the team. Dolan acted as if he never was gung ho about Larry, but for some reason felt compelled to take a flight, near mid-season, to a road game, to chew out the players. That pep talk fell on deaf ears and that should have been a wake-up call to him and Zeke.

The team may improve from last yr's win total but not by much. Fans will see blowout losses mark my words and it will be the hustle and grit from the youngsters that may put a little more sunshine in the Garden this coming season.

[Edited by - SeatsBlue on 09-21-2006 4:57 PM]
LMFAO @ the Bio [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephon_Marbury[/url]
oohah
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9/21/2006  6:52 PM
“Is it possible for you to be happy with the Knicks with Isiah GM'ing or coaching?
hard to say. Ive never experienced much besides suffering w/ Isiah, and I have ZERO confidence based on head scratching moves and a horrible track record. I think Isiah thinks Mo Taylor, Jerome, what he gave up for Curry, etc are and were good moves. So yes.. I think if the Knicks actually played with some heart I could be happy. I dont think I could ever be comfortable with that guy in charge.”


Interesting. I would say the door is open for you to be happy about this team even if Isiah is in charge----> if you see reason to be happy. I really just wanted to know if it was a personal thing with IT.

“If so, what specifically do you expect out of the Knicks, in terms of player/team performance and win total?
totally honest... I have ZERO expectations. I expect the team to tank, the loser me first untradable vets he has to quit on him for their usual reasons and for him to be fired at some point. If we somehow play well all I can say is super.”


I love the frankness!

“If so, what would you find to be an acceptable performance, in terms of player/team performance and win total?
I think when you have the highest payroll in the NBA, a roster with a core of veteran players and have added young players that you spin and drool over anything less than .550 ball (about 45 wins) and a legit *chance* to advance past round is utter failure. This is NOT a rebuilding team. Curry, JJ1, JJ2, Crawford, Francis, Q, Marbury are all signed for 3 more years + and have at least 5 years of NBA experience.”

Is that the same standard you would have held had LB stayed?

“If so, what would you find to be a performance that makes you happy, in terms of player/team performance and win total?
.550 ball, but more important playing hard and competing every night. What would be REALLY nice would be to see some kind of plan, some kind of formula. It usually changes about every 3 months with Isiah, so that would be a first. Also a culture where the players are responsible. Where guys go inactive until they are in shape. I dont have if Lee is the starting center or Nate is the starting PF. If Mo, Jerome, Eddie or anyone else comes in not ready to play they sit. None of this playing your way into shape and dragging your feet on defense CRAP. No more coddling. Good *coaching* happens first and foremost when players execute fundamentals and are ready to play.”

Great stuff.

Way to hang it out fish!



oohah




Good luck Mike D'Antoni, 'cause you ain't never seen nothing like this before!
oohah
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Member: #887
9/21/2006  6:54 PM
Posted by SeatsBlue:

BlueSeats puts on a clinic as usual.

Seriously the Knick fan base overall has to improve it's over basketball intellect. Stop holding on to these perceived binkies in this organization. Marbury is a bum, always has been and although he's very talented in some respects the pill must be swallowed when it comes to him. Everyone knows Larry Brown stunk up the joint last yr but he deserved another shot. All Zeke and Dolan had to do was back Larry day-in and day-out and stop mettling with coaching the team. Dolan acted as if he never was gung ho about Larry, but for some reason felt compelled to take a flight, near mid-season, to a road game, to chew out the players. That pep talk fell on deaf ears and that should have been a wake-up call to him and Zeke.

The team may improve from last yr's win total but not by much. Fans will see blowout losses mark my words and it will be the hustle and grit from the youngsters that may put a little more sunshine in the Garden this coming season.

[Edited by - SeatsBlue on 09-21-2006 4:57 PM]



Hung his ass out on his very first post!

His ass is fully prepared to hang out!



oohah



[Edited by - oohah on 21-09-2006 6:57 PM]
Good luck Mike D'Antoni, 'cause you ain't never seen nothing like this before!
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