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The Knicks signed an offer for restricted FA Jefferies...
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arkrud
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8/2/2007  1:02 PM
Posted by VDesai:
Posted by VDesai:

When I watch Jared Jeffries I see a bad player. I'm shocked that so many love him on this board. I think we'll regret this one.


It's painful to always be right...

What do you think when you look at Zack?

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BasketballJones
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8/2/2007  1:48 PM
Idiots who liked the Jared Jeffries signing -- Man Up!
https:// It's not so hard.
nyk4ever
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8/2/2007  1:49 PM
Posted by BasketballJones:

Idiots who liked the Jared Jeffries signing -- Man Up!

I already did and I will man up again.

It's deserved.
"OMG - did we just go on a two-trade-wining-streak?" -SupremeCommander
Bippity10
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8/2/2007  2:02 PM
I wasn't on this post but I will give my thoughts. I thought the JJ signing was okay. Still don't have a problem with it. We overpaid(as per usual) but concerning the roster he was a perfect fit. WE had no effort and noone to play defense. Then we drafted Balkman and this trade went back to making no sense. We have since drafted two other players capable of playing JJ's position, thus confusing me more.
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kam77
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8/2/2007  2:56 PM
There's a lot of names that have vanished from this board on this thread.
lol @ being BANNED by Martin since 11/07/10 (for asking if Mr. Earl had a point). Really, Martin? C'mon. This is the internet. I've seen much worse on this site. By Earl himself. Drop the hypocrisy.
Pharzeone
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8/2/2007  3:00 PM
Posted by Bippity10:

My problem with the whole LB thing is simple. Because people hate LB they make it okay for the team to completely quit on us. I don't think that way. LB is gone. All the excuses for laziness and lack of D were LB's fault apparently. So I don't want to hear his name anymore. He is gone. Now the players are all going to play their arses off. They have no more excuses. I don't care if LB made a bazillion excuses last year. He is gone now so it's irrelevant. The players are here. It's time for them to step up and produce for me, THE FAN!!!! Not for the friggin coach.

Ah... Bip, you did post on the thread but like usual you tried to turn it into a LB rant.
I don't like to play bad rookies , I like to play good rookies - Mike D'Antoni
RemBee76
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8/2/2007  3:08 PM
Actually, Bip, we signed Jared Jeffries after we drafted Balkman.

I too think the move made sense at the time, no reason to think that Balkman would be able to take the reigns as a starter (he still may not) and Jeffries was a starting quality three who had developed a reputation as a shut-down defender in Washington. He was a character guy Isiah had been following for years, and he was young enough that if he caught on he could become part of our long-term core.

I thought citing Jeffries’ stats were irrelevant because his contributions didn't show up there. Better to have someone who didn't need the ball to be effective when you are playing in what was expected to be a starting line-up of primarily offensively tuned players.

But that starting line-up never panned out because Jeffries started the season injured and for whatever reason never found his groove last season. I credit Isiah for not forcing the issue and giving JJslim's minutes to Balkman when it was clear he wasn't producing.

We'll see what happens this year, but I strongly suspect we are going to see a much better Jared Jeffries, eager to prove his critics wrong. And if not? I wouldn't mind seeing what our summer-league three do on the big stage.
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Panos
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8/2/2007  3:29 PM
Again for my permanent record:
I don't mind that Zeke takes fliers on these guys (JJ, JJ2, etc.)
but for God's sake please don't do it for 5 years! If they don't want a 2-3 year
contract, let em go elsewhere!
kam77
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8/2/2007  3:40 PM
Posted by Panos:

Again for my permanent record:
I don't mind that Zeke takes fliers on these guys (JJ, JJ2, etc.)
but for God's sake please don't do it for 5 years! If they don't want a 2-3 year
contract, let em go elsewhere!

I was on record in another forum as wanting Jerome. But not for more than 2-3 years. We did need him at the time because we had nobody. Now it looks like Isiahs worst signing.
lol @ being BANNED by Martin since 11/07/10 (for asking if Mr. Earl had a point). Really, Martin? C'mon. This is the internet. I've seen much worse on this site. By Earl himself. Drop the hypocrisy.
tomverve
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8/2/2007  3:52 PM
Posted by tomverve:

Weird how it seems every single Wizards fan is so lukewarm on Jeffries. From what I've seen, I don't exactly get the hype either. Giving him the full MLE certainly seems like a case of overpaying in order to prevent a match from Washington. If we do land Jeffries I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of the people waving his flag now end up complaining about his contract and the roster logjam he creates a few months into the season.

ayup.

It's not clear that Jeffries was really off his game last season. His FT% was down considerably but otherwise his stats look similar to what he did in Washington.

Between all the other options we have at SF, I hope Jeffries does not see the light of day. He's a pretty good backup quality SF in my estimation but we have at least two better options right now (Q and Balk) with possibly a couple more (Chandler and Nichols).
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RemBee76
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8/2/2007  4:16 PM
Posted by tomverve:
It's not clear that Jeffries was really off his game last season. His FT% was down considerably but otherwise his stats look similar to what he did in Washington.

But again, do his basic stats quantify his impact?

Around the time of the signing last year I looked at his defensive stats on 82games.com. They were impressive, basically told the story that I had observed myself...He was the defensive anchor on the team, consistently guarding the most dangerous offensive threat, and held that threat below his season average.

I don't even need to look up his stats again for last seaon to know he had no where close to that same impact on defense, certainly nothing close to Balkman's.

Like you said, we have better options and I'd rather give the PT to guys who are going to be longer term members of our core. But Jeffries was pressing in every aspect of his game, really all season long, and I expect him to be better this year. We'll see.

Its like a groupie website, or bitter ex-wives club. -Sebstar
Panos
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8/2/2007  4:17 PM
I expect to win Lotto this week.
RemBee76
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8/2/2007  4:25 PM
Panos, how many players do you know of peaked at the age of 24 without suffering any major injury? We know Jeffries can do better. On the Wizards he was the only starter to have a positive impact on the defensive +/- stats when he was on the court, and the Wizards were a decent defensive squad. He held his opponent at the SF spot to 10.9 points per 48 minutes. That’s damn good. I expect him to be better, to get to his former level, because I don't see any reason for him to not do so.

You can argue that he wasn't ever good, fine, but plenty of evidence suggests otherwise.
Its like a groupie website, or bitter ex-wives club. -Sebstar
tomverve
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8/2/2007  4:27 PM
Posted by RemBee76:

But again, do his basic stats quantify his impact?

Perhaps not. But even if Jeffries does bring something that is not directly indexed by boxscore stats, I would not expect his success at that certain "je ne sais quo" to be entirely independent from his success as measured by boxscore stats. In other words, if Jeffries' normal stats were largely the same as they've ever been, it's unlikely that the non-stat-indexed parts of his game would deviate strongly from what he usually did. I could be wrong. Even if I am, I'll take Q and Balkman any day.
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RemBee76
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8/2/2007  4:40 PM
Posted by tomverve:
Even if I am, I'll take Q and Balkman any day.

Understand that I am not arguing that point (so long as Q stays healthy and gets in shape, because he was looking pretty rotund during summer league)...I am arguing the point that Jeffries is a better player than we saw last year, and worthy of the risk Isiah took on him.

Remember Q’s health problems his first year here, and that we had little idea, really, how well Balkman would do. We needed a starter and the man was a starter on a team that made the playoffs the year before. He simply didn't look like that same player last year.

On the Wiz he held the opposing SF to 10.9 per 48, on the Knicks 23.9. That’s a difference that goes beyond the team defensive scheme and speaks pretty loudly to a huge dip in individual performance, no matter what his points per game or his free-throw % tell you.

Which in Jeffries' case, ain't much.
Its like a groupie website, or bitter ex-wives club. -Sebstar
kam77
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8/2/2007  4:48 PM
Jeffries never got a comfort level last year being hurt, missing time in training camp, coming into the season cold. Thats all the excuses i'll make for the man. Obviously this year he needs to prove that last season was a fluke.
lol @ being BANNED by Martin since 11/07/10 (for asking if Mr. Earl had a point). Really, Martin? C'mon. This is the internet. I've seen much worse on this site. By Earl himself. Drop the hypocrisy.
Bippity10
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8/2/2007  4:59 PM
Posted by Pharzeone:
Posted by Bippity10:

My problem with the whole LB thing is simple. Because people hate LB they make it okay for the team to completely quit on us. I don't think that way. LB is gone. All the excuses for laziness and lack of D were LB's fault apparently. So I don't want to hear his name anymore. He is gone. Now the players are all going to play their arses off. They have no more excuses. I don't care if LB made a bazillion excuses last year. He is gone now so it's irrelevant. The players are here. It's time for them to step up and produce for me, THE FAN!!!! Not for the friggin coach.

Ah... Bip, you did post on the thread but like usual you tried to turn it into a LB rant.

Actually if you read the post it was more of a stop making excuses rant with a sprinkle of LB.
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Pharzeone
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8/2/2007  5:19 PM
Posted by Bippity10:
Posted by Pharzeone:
Posted by Bippity10:

My problem with the whole LB thing is simple. Because people hate LB they make it okay for the team to completely quit on us. I don't think that way. LB is gone. All the excuses for laziness and lack of D were LB's fault apparently. So I don't want to hear his name anymore. He is gone. Now the players are all going to play their arses off. They have no more excuses. I don't care if LB made a bazillion excuses last year. He is gone now so it's irrelevant. The players are here. It's time for them to step up and produce for me, THE FAN!!!! Not for the friggin coach.

Ah... Bip, you did post on the thread but like usual you tried to turn it into a LB rant.

Actually if you read the post it was more of a stop making excuses rant with a sprinkle of LB.

Bip, you can never sprinkle LB. You have to pour it. You LB lover!
I don't like to play bad rookies , I like to play good rookies - Mike D'Antoni
tomverve
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8/2/2007  6:05 PM
Posted by RemBee76:

On the Wiz he held the opposing SF to 10.9 per 48, on the Knicks 23.9. That’s a difference that goes beyond the team defensive scheme and speaks pretty loudly to a huge dip in individual performance, no matter what his points per game or his free-throw % tell you.

I don't know about that. The 82games.com data just tells us that when Jeffries was on the floor, the player on the opposing team designated as SF by their system scored that many per 48. It's hard to connect that sort of circumstantial evidence to Jeffries as an individual defender. Jeffries may not have even been guarding the guy the 82games system presumes he was guarding much of the time. And I would certainly not discount the effect of the surrounding 4 players on what a guy's defensive on/off numbers look like. That sort of thing is really heavily affected by context. The more mistakes your teammates make, the worse off you wind up looking because defenses are not static one on one matchups but are really more of a unitary, intermingling 5 on 5 thing. For instance, it is possible that the Knicks' overall D broke down more often than Washington's, requiring Jeffries to help more. Or it is also possible that in NY's defensive scheme Jeffries was called upon to be a help defender more than he was in Washington.

At bottom, I recognize conventional boxscore stats are not going to capture the full value of a player like Jeffries. But the kind of data at 82games.com isn't much better because it's full of holes; a lot of assumptions need to be met in order to draw the kinds of inferences most people try to draw from the data. Optimally, NBA scorekeepers would develop new boxscore kind of stats to keep track of an individual's defensive contributions directly in a more detailed level than just blocks and steals. Til we get there defense is always going to be hard to figure out.
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Nalod
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8/2/2007  6:16 PM


JJ2 was suppose to be the Glue!
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The Knicks signed an offer for restricted FA Jefferies...
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