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misterearl
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7/17/2006  11:55 AM
Posed another way...

who's guarding Paul Pierce?
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crzymdups
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7/17/2006  11:57 AM
Posted by joec32033:

Roster balance. Team chemistry. Defense. Effort. These are all things that folks were whining and whining about all season. Who fits that profile better? Marcus Williams? Or Renaldo Balkman and Mardy Collins?
If they got playing time? Marcus would be the best fit because he gets everyone involved(at least he did in college) and knows how to run a whole team(at least he did in college). None of our guads can claim to do that.
They all do. They are all rookies, they all wouldn't complain about PT. This type of basketball Isiah is preaching minimizes Defense.

I think we all know the answer, unless some of us are being delusional like Trevor Ariza that we needed another offensive star who needs the ball in his hands to be effective and doesn't do much else.

Marcus needs the ball to make everyone else effective. There is a huge difference between the type of game Marcus plays and the type of game our 5 guards play.

I agree about your point about Marcus, but at the same time, I think Crawford and Marbury make others better. Balkman and Lee are also fantastic passers for the positions they play, so it's not like we have no passers.

I also think Balkman will see at least 20mpg this season, perhaps more. I'm not sure if Collins gets time yet, but I would certainly like to see him get time.

I agree with you that trading Francis is imperative, not so much Marbury. I'm still holding out hope that Isiah finds a solid deal for Francis before November 1. I think Francis is the one guy here who can derail this season from being a big leap forward.
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joec32033
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7/17/2006  12:04 PM
Trading down guarantees what exactly?

Different picks?
Trading Down garauntees nothing. It offers more chances to get a player who can actually contribute and be worth it in the long run. At the time of the Draft not only was Balkman not definitiviely in the draft at all, he was not foreseen as a top 100 player. If I have to garauntee money to a player I am not garunateeing it to a player who is seen as a project and not in the top 100 prospects. I want a player who I am fairly certain will contribute.

Please state your alternatives and we'll follow them all in the context of the teams that selected them. But really JoeC, are you so addicted to the draft number that you refuse to wait for training camp to start?
I have already stated my alternatives. Go back and read them. No. I am not addicted to draft number at all. There were better players available. Why can you not admit that? Or are you so addicted to defending Balkman to any type of criticism? If you can pick a guy 40 and teams are selling freaking picks why take him at 20?!? I already said I like Balkman's game(if you want me to bold that I will just tell me), I already stated he is a piece that we could use(this is the 2nd time I said that, but if I really was serious about needing a specialist against NBA players, I want a guy I know can do it, not take a chance on a rookie).

All I am saying is that at 20 he is a reach. At 20 with a top 10 talent available, we reached. At 20 we had a team with the 22 and 23 picks who was super hot for Marcus(if we weren't gonna take him) and we could have burned house money on Rolando-who even by his own admission didn't think he would go in the first round-and is widely seen as a Huge project just to be a very good role player(this is not Gerald Green or Andrew Bynum we are talking about here).

Where was Scottie Pippen selected?
5th in '87 by Seattle.
http://www.nba.com/playerfile/scottie_pippen/

Charles Oakley?
9th in '85 by the Bulls.
http://www.nba.com/playerfile/charles_oakley/index.html

Anthony Mason?
53 in '88 by the Bucks.
http://www.nba.com/playerfile/anthony_mason/index.html

John Starks?
Not drafted.
http://www.nba.com/playerfile/john_starks/index.html

What is your point? I already defended in another thread you can get talent later in the draft and by signing undrafted FA's-something I still believe. It is about getting the most out of your picks.
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crzymdups
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7/17/2006  12:12 PM
Posted by joec32033:

What is your point? I already defended in another thread you can get talent later in the draft and by signing undrafted FA's-something I still believe. It is about getting the most out of your picks.

The point, at least for me is: for all we know we DID get the most out of the pick. I think Isiah has done a good job of going for what he believes is a valuable player, rather than to draft the player that mock drafts have decided have more value.

To say we didn't get value at the pick when A) he hasn't played an NBA game yet and B) he appears to fill a very big need on this club - aka defensive small forward, plays well without the ball, passes, rebounds, blocks shots, steals, etc... to say that's not value at this point is a little ridiculous. Let's give the kid a chance, sometimes careers don't turn out how people thought they would.

Also, interesting thing about Pippen - he was from a small college and a bit of a pick out of left field at the time.
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joec32033
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7/17/2006  12:12 PM
I agree about your point about Marcus, but at the same time, I think Crawford and Marbury make others better. Balkman and Lee are also fantastic passers for the positions they play, so it's not like we have no passers.
There is a difference between being a good passer and making others better. Bibby and Marbury are good passers. Paul, Kidd, and Nash make others better. Just because you can pass does not mean you make others better.

I also think Balkman will see at least 20mpg this season, perhaps more. I'm not sure if Collins gets time yet, but I would certainly like to see him get time.
I'd love to see them both get big minutes. From what I saw of Balkman he is a 2/3 defender tweener. There is no way he can defend an NBA 4. Collins actually has a better chance to play than Balkman, IMO. He offers something at the PG spot noone else does. He can run a team and he doesn't have to shoot to be effective. Balkman offers stuff very similiar to Lee. Both of them getting heavy minutes may be redundant.

I agree with you that trading Francis is imperative, not so much Marbury. I'm still holding out hope that Isiah finds a solid deal for Francis before November 1. I think Francis is the one guy here who can derail this season from being a big leap forward.
Want to hear something funny? Francis is probably a better fit for this team. He is a better rebounder(by 3 rebounds a game over Steph-and with the weak rebounders we have we may need that). Other than that, they are very similiar players with very similiar skill sets. Steph gets a few more assists, which would be nice with this team of scorers but if we are serious about running the assists numbers may even out.
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misterearl
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7/17/2006  12:26 PM
>>At the time of the Draft not only was Balkman not definitiviely in the draft at all, he was not foreseen as a top 100 player

Top 100?

Did you say Top 100?

I suppose you only listen to music that Dick Clark rates in the top 20 also right?

Give the draft position speculation a rest areddy!

who heard of Ben Wallace in college?

One of the greatest small forward of all time... the prototypipcal SF - Bobby Dandridge?

sheesh
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joec32033
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7/17/2006  12:27 PM
The point, at least for me is: for all we know we DID get the most out of the pick. I think Isiah has done a good job of going for what he believes is a valuable player, rather than to draft the player that mock drafts have decided have more value.
I am not basing any thing on mocks. I am basing it college career. Maybe noone waned the 20 pick (with Marcus there I doubt it). Maybe PHX would have taken Balkman(and D'Antoni was lying about not taking him, him not even being "on their radar" for no reason at all). Maybe we couldn't buy a second round pick for $3 mil(even though PHX sold the #21 pick fir the same amount)..All that may be true but the way the draft went, I find that at least once scenario had to be plausible.

To say we didn't get value at the pick when A) he hasn't played an NBA game yet and B) he appears to fill a very big need on this club - aka defensive small forward, plays well without the ball, passes, rebounds, blocks shots, steals, etc... to say that's not value at this point is a little ridiculous. Let's give the kid a chance, sometimes careers don't turn out how people thought they would.

I am judging this kid on what I have seen in SL, and on his college career...I am not hoping for this kid to fail, I ope he succeeds, but very few guys develop to the point where alot of guys seem to expect him to develop to. I mean he has to develop alot just to be a role player.

Also, interesting thing about Pippen - he was from a small college and a bit of a pick out of left field at the time.
From NBA.com
College:
A consensus NAIA All-America his senior year at Central Arkansas … posted averages of 26.3 ppg and 10.0 rpg his senior season … selected NAIA All-America his junior year, with averages of 19.8 ppg and 9.2 rpg … finished his career with averages of 17.2 ppg, 8.1 rpg and 2.7 apg, while shooting .563 (637-1131) from the floor, including .575 (23-40) from three-point range.

1987-88:
In the months prior to the 1987 NBA Draft, Chicago Bulls General Manager Jerry Krause became impressed with the multidimensional talents of Scottie Pippen, a little-known player at the University of Central Arkansas. Pippen attracted attention from NBA scouts with averages of 23.6 points and 10.0 rebounds per game as a senior, but he was still an unknown quantity compared to players in big-time college programs. The Bulls owned the eighth overall pick in the draft, but Pippen didn't last that long. The Seattle SuperSonics selected him at No. 5, behind the likes of David Robinson, Armon Gilliam, and Reggie Williams. Chicago picked Olden Polynice at No. 8, and Krause immediately got the trade winds blowing. By June 22 he had orchestrated a deal with the Sonics that sent Polynice and future draft considerations to Seattle in exchange for Pippen. The lanky 6-foot-7 rookie came off the bench in his first NBA season, playing a reserve role behind starting small forward Brad Sellers. Pippen averaged 7.9 points and 3.8 rebounds, shooting .463 from the field and .576 from the free-throw line. He had his best game on November 23 against the Boston Celtics, tallying 20 points, 7 rebounds, and 6 steals in 38 minutes. His 91 steals for the season ranked second on the Bulls to Michael Jordan's 259. Pippen began the postseason as a reserve, but he replaced Sellers in the starting lineup in the fifth and final game of a first-round series against the Cleveland Cavaliers. Pippen responded with 24 points, 6 rebounds, and 3 steals in the Bulls' 107-101 victory, and Coach Doug Collins elected to keep him in a starting role for the next round. Chicago then lost to the Detroit Pistons in five games in the Eastern Conference Semifinals.



Pippen is what I consider a justifiable reach. 28 and 11 is a far reach from 9 and barely 6.
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misterearl
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7/17/2006  12:33 PM
Is Kenny Adekele a justifiable reach?
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misterearl
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7/17/2006  12:34 PM
Jackie Butler a justifiable reacH?
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misterearl
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7/17/2006  12:34 PM
Qyntel Woods?
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misterearl
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7/17/2006  12:35 PM
Paul Miller?
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crzymdups
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7/17/2006  12:37 PM
Posted by joec32033:
The point, at least for me is: for all we know we DID get the most out of the pick. I think Isiah has done a good job of going for what he believes is a valuable player, rather than to draft the player that mock drafts have decided have more value.
I am not basing any thing on mocks. I am basing it college career. Maybe noone waned the 20 pick (with Marcus there I doubt it). Maybe PHX would have taken Balkman(and D'Antoni was lying about not taking him, him not even being "on their radar" for no reason at all). Maybe we couldn't buy a second round pick for $3 mil(even though PHX sold the #21 pick fir the same amount)..All that may be true but the way the draft went, I find that at least once scenario had to be plausible.

To say we didn't get value at the pick when A) he hasn't played an NBA game yet and B) he appears to fill a very big need on this club - aka defensive small forward, plays well without the ball, passes, rebounds, blocks shots, steals, etc... to say that's not value at this point is a little ridiculous. Let's give the kid a chance, sometimes careers don't turn out how people thought they would.

I am judging this kid on what I have seen in SL, and on his college career...I am not hoping for this kid to fail, I ope he succeeds, but very few guys develop to the point where alot of guys seem to expect him to develop to. I mean he has to develop alot just to be a role player.

Also, interesting thing about Pippen - he was from a small college and a bit of a pick out of left field at the time.


Pippen is what I consider a justifiable reach. 28 and 11 is a far reach from 9 and barely 6.

Pippen was 23ppg and 10rpg, and I don't think Balkman will be the same type of scorer at all, but Pippen didn't even play on the NCAA level. Balkman dominated Noah (a top three pick in 07 and national champ) and others, so I would say Balkman is less of a reach.

What's in it for Phoenix to say they were interested? Nothing. Also, you act like we could have bought a pick for $3 million when we have 15 guys with guaranteed deals already and we're learning that Dolan may not even let Zeke spend $7 million to re-sign Jackie.

I think a lot of people ignore reality in these things. The reality is that drafting Marcus would have created a horrible glut at guard for us, and we would have been dealing from a major position of weakness in trying to unload Francis and/or Marbury. Also, Isiah has one year, and drafting a rookie PG isn't going to win him anything. Marcus is no Chris Paul. I just wish there was a little more realism here at times. For every good summer league game Marcus and Bynum have had, they've had a horrible, atrocious one. Balkman is far more consistent doing what he does and we need what he brings far more.
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joec32033
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7/17/2006  12:38 PM
>>At the time of the Draft not only was Balkman not definitiviely in the draft at all, he was not foreseen as a top 100 player

Top 100?

Did you say Top 100?

I suppose you only listen to music that Dick Clark rates in the top 20 also right?
No wonder you think he was a top 20 pick. You were unable to read the NBA draft guide that listed the top 100 prospects available in the NBA draft and Balkman WAS NOT ON THERE. Did you even do ANY research on the draft or did you just sort of throw darts at names on a dart board and hit Balkman? This is the second time you have been condescending for no reason at all, I suggest you give it a rest.

Give the draft position speculation a rest areddy!
As soon as you give up the crusade that Balkman was unquestionably a first round pick, let alone a 20th..

who heard of Ben Wallace in college?
Sure he was UNDRAFTED and signed by the Bullets at the time and worked his way up.

CAREER TRANSACTIONS
Never drafted by an NBA franchise...Signed as a free agent by the Washington Bullets on 10/2/96.
http://www.nba.com/playerfile/ben_wallace/index.html

One of the greatest small forward of all time... the prototypipcal SF - Bobby Dandridge?
The guy drafted in round 4 in 1969 by the Bucks.....the one that went undrafted and signed with Kentucky of the ABA in '69?
http://www.databasebasketball.com/players/playerpage.htm?ilkid=DANDRBO01

Why do you keep mentioning guys that fell in the draft?!? I'm happy as hell and proclaiming Balkman a great pick if we just signed him as a UFA or drafted him in the second round. Balkman's situation is not the same as the guys you are mentioning.
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joec32033
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7/17/2006  12:40 PM
Adeleke-undrafted and averaged 20 and 13....yes.
Butler-undrafted and was a physical beast in school...yes.
QWoods-Big numbers in school, great size for the NBA..Yes
Paul Miller-I don't know much about, but from what I saw in SL, he is a typical undrafted FA.
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misterearl
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7/17/2006  12:40 PM
Actually, my favorite "justifiable reach" was David Lee at 30.

he was questiuoned at length as well in 05.

"Who's HE?" "David WHO?"

some knew better

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crzymdups
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7/17/2006  12:42 PM
Posted by joec32033:

Adeleke-undrafted and averaged 20 and 13....yes.
Butler-undrafted and was a physical beast in school...yes.
QWoods-Big numbers in school, great size for the NBA..Yes
Paul Miller-I don't know much about, but from what I saw in SL, he is a typical undrafted FA.

Woods was drafted 20th or 21st - was that a reach? people would say yes now, but everyone coveted him around draft time and when he dropped 42pts in summer league one year.
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crzymdups
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7/17/2006  12:44 PM
Posted by misterearl:

Actually, my favorite "justifiable reach" was David Lee at 30.

he was questiuoned at length as well in 05.

"Who's HE?" "David WHO?"

some knew better

I never even thought DLee was a reach. I was worried San Antonio was going to nab him right ahead of us. I'd call that pick more of a steal than a reach.
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misterearl
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7/17/2006  12:45 PM
Justifiable Creativity

>> Adeleke-undrafted and averaged 20 and 13....yes.
Butler-undrafted and was a physical beast in school...yes.
QWoods-Big numbers in school, great size for the NBA..Yes

JoeC - it would seem the evidence supports a theory that the person responsible for these selections has an eye not only for highly regarded talent, but the less publicized "less-heralded" players as well.

Time will tell

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misterearl
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7/17/2006  12:50 PM
crzymdups - then David Lee as a "steal" it is

I liked David Lee in High School

Could three new players from the SL roster (Collins, Adekele/ Miller, Renaldo) make the Knicks 15 man roster?

Would that make six (or seven? ) new yoots in two years?

[Edited by - misterearl on 07-17-2006 12:51 PM]
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joec32033
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7/17/2006  12:57 PM
Pippen was 23ppg and 10rpg, and I don't think Balkman will be the same type of scorer at all, but Pippen didn't even play on the NCAA level. Balkman dominated Noah (a top three pick in 07 and national champ) and others, so I would say Balkman is less of a reach.
Misread, thought it was 28.....even still I don't think he is anywhere near the reach Balkman is. Pippen dominated a lower level conference. AS he should do if he was a real talented player. Balkman didn't.

What's in it for Phoenix to say they were interested? Nothing. Also, you act like we could have bought a pick for $3 million when we have 15 guys with guaranteed deals already and we're learning that Dolan may not even let Zeke spend $7 million to re-sign Jackie.
We have that problem now of being over on the roster spots. What is one more?

I think a lot of people ignore reality in these things. The reality is that drafting Marcus would have created a horrible glut at guard for us, and we would have been dealing from a major position of weakness in trying to unload Francis and/or Marbury.
We already have a glut at PG...Marcus would have given us something we don't have in a distributer PG...
Also, Isiah has one year, and drafting a rookie PG isn't going to win him anything. Marcus is no Chris Paul. I just wish there was a little more realism here at times
Absolutely he isn't Chris Paul, but Isiah has mortgaged what may be a higher return in the draft later on to take a guy that we need to win now who has a much lower ceiling.

For every good summer league game Marcus and Bynum have had, they've had a horrible, atrocious one. Balkman is far more consistent doing what he does and we need what he brings far more.
The flip side to that is Balkman doesn't bring as much to the fgame as either player and the expectation of him are alot lower.
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