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O.T. War in the middle East...
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firefly
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7/17/2006  12:24 PM
Posted by misterearl:

>> The Holocaust wasnt just terrible beacause of the extermination of Jews and other minorities... Nothing like that has ever occured throughout the length and breadth of human history...

You may want to check the numbers of people killed due to The Transatlantic Slave Trade

(between 40 and 50 million killed)

McK1 - an absolutely brilliant post that offers some historical perspective



I'm jus' sayin'

[Edited by - misterearl on 07-17-2006 12:12 PM]

Thanks Earl. Already responded.
Some men see things as they are and ask why. I dream things that never were and ask why not?
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nykshaknbake
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7/17/2006  1:31 PM
One thing I dun really understand is wy Isreal is targeting things like fuel depots and power plants. Won't that make the Lebanese gov't less powerful and able to comply with their demand they go nail Hezbollah. It seems that demanding is and destroying crucial non-terrorist infrastructure is counter poroductive and pretty brutal.
nyvector16
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7/17/2006  2:38 PM
The purpose of destroying vital infrastructure is to erode public sympathy and support for Hizbollah.
That in combination with the massive leaflet campaign is one strategy the israelis are emplying to try to uproot the militant group from Lebanon.
colorfl1
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7/17/2006  3:06 PM
Posted by nykshaknbake:

One thing I dun really understand is wy Isreal is targeting things like fuel depots and power plants. Won't that make the Lebanese gov't less powerful and able to comply with their demand they go nail Hezbollah. It seems that demanding is and destroying crucial non-terrorist infrastructure is counter poroductive and pretty brutal.


colorfl1- They want to shut down travel so that no reinforcements can get in and so no terrorists or hostages can get out before the ground troups arive to challenge them. Knocking out power allows commandos to mark targets in the cloak of darkness.
Killa4luv
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7/17/2006  3:51 PM
Posted by nykshaknbake:

One thing I dun really understand is wy Isreal is targeting things like fuel depots and power plants. Won't that make the Lebanese gov't less powerful and able to comply with their demand they go nail Hezbollah. It seems that demanding is and destroying crucial non-terrorist infrastructure is counter poroductive and pretty brutal.

I have said this no less then 3 times on this thread: targeting power supplies, water treatment plants, fuel depots, food storage places, etc. is nothing more than collective punishment and the targeting of civilians. Its as simple as that. The sick, elderly, and very young are the ones hardest hit by these tactics, EVERYONE KNOWS THIS IT IS NOT A SECRET. That Israel routinely does this sort of thing is why I call it a facist or terrorist state. You do not punish an entire region for the actions of a few. No different than the US trying to punish an entire nation to try get them to revolt against Sadaam. The bottom line is it is a facist tactic, which cannot be defended.

TheSage
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7/17/2006  4:05 PM
I will post one reply to this thread-my longest ever. I have been to Israel several times, have met every Prime Minister of Israel since Shamir with the exception of Olmert (have had dinner with his brother 3 times in the last two months). I say this not boastfully but to show I have some knowledge of the subject.

Israel's claim goes back 6000 years-I think that predates the Arab claim by about 5000 years. UN effectively deeded the land back to them in 1947.

Israel has no territorial desires other than defensible borders. Two weeks after the 1967 war Israel offered Gaza back to Egypt and other Arab countries which wanted no part of it. Is rael kept the West Bank (speifically Jericho and the surrounding land) for one reason -bargaining chip.

Every Israeli attack has had a strategic purpose-cutting off supplies, destroying terrorist communications and infrastructure. I almost regurgitated when one commentator on the O'Reilly Report questioned why Israel hit targets in residential areas-schmuck that it because that is where the terorist set up their headquarters, maintain supplies and communications.

Israel wants peace-nothing more-they want nothing from their neighbors-why would they. FYO the Palestinians in Israel have revceived better treatment under Israeli rule than they did under Arab domination in the deades prior when they were under Arab control.

Here's a little sample of Israeli accomplishments

The Middle East has been growing date palms for centuries. The average
tree is about 18-20 feet tall and yields about 38 pounds of dates a
year.

Israeli date trees are now yielding 400 pounds/year and are short enough
to be harvested from the ground or a short ladder.

Israel,the 100th smallest country, with less than 1/1000th of the
world's population, can lay claim to the following:


The cell phone was developed in Israel by Israelis working in the Israeli
branch of Motorola, which has its larges t development center in Israel.

Most of the Windows NT and XP operating systems were developed by
Microsoft-Israel.

The Pentium MMX Chip technology was designed in Israel at Intel.

Both the Pentium-4 microprocessor and the Centrino processor were
entirely designed, developed and produced in Israel.

The Pentium microprocessor in your computer was most likely made in
Israel.

Voice mail technology was developed in Israel.

Both Microsoft and Cisco built their only R&D facilities outside the US
in Israel.


The technology for the AOL Instant Messenger ICQ was developed in 1996
by four young Israelis.

Israel has the fourth largest air force in the world (after the U.S,
Russia and China). In addition to a large variety of other aircraft,Israel's
air force has an aerial arsenal of over 250 F-16's. This is the largest fleet of
F-16 aircraft outside of the U. S.

Israel's $100 billion economy is larger than all of its immediate
neighbors combined.

Israel has the highest percentage in the world of home computers per
capita.

According to industry officials, Israel designed the airline industry's
most impenetrable flight security. US officials now look (finally) to Israel
for advice on how to handle airborne security threats.

Israel has the highest ratio of university degrees to it's population in
the world.

Israel produces more scientific papers per capita than any other nation
by a large margin - 109 per 10,000 people -- as well as one of the highest
per capita rates of patents filed.

In proportion to its population, Israel has the largest number of
startup companies in the world. In absolute terms, Israel has the
largest numbeof startup companies than any other country in the world,
except the U.S (3,500 companies mostly in hi-tech).

With more than 3,000 high-tech companies and startups, Israel has the
highest concentration of hi-tech companies in the world -- apart from the
Silicon Valley, U. S.

Israel is ranked #2 in the world for venture capital funds right behind
the U. S..

Outside the United States and Canada, Israel has the largest number of
NASDAQ listed companies.

Israel has the highest average living standards in the Middle East.

The per capita income in 2000 was over $17,500, exceeding that of the
UK.

On a per capita basis, Israel has the largest number of biotech
startups.


Twenty-four per cent of Israel's workforce holds university degrees,
ranking third in the industrialized world, after the United States and Holland
an 12 per cent hold advanced degrees..

Israel is the only liberal democracy in the Middle East.

In 1984 and 1991, Israel airlifted a total of 22,000 Ethiopian Jews
(Operation Solomon) at Risk in Ethiopia, to safety in Israel.


When Golda Meir was elected PrimeMinister ofIsrael in 1969, she became
the world's second elected female leader in modern times.


When the U. S. Embassy in Nairobi, Kenya was bombed in 1998, Israeli
rescue teams were on the scene within a day -- and saved three victims
from the rubble.

Israel has the third highest rate of entrepreneurship -- and the highest
rate among women and among people over 55 - in the world.

Relative to its population, Israel is the largest immigrant-absorbing
nation on earth. Immigrants come in search of democracy, religious
freedom, and economic opportunity. (Hundreds of thousands from
the former Soviet Union)


Israel was the first nation in the world to adopt the Kimberly process,
an international standard that certifies diamonds as "conflict free."

Israel has the world's second highest per capita of new books.

Israel is the only country in the world that entered the 21st century
with a net gain in its number of trees, made more remarkable because
this was achieved in an area considered mainly desert.

Israel has more museums per capita than any other country.

Medicine... Israeli scientists developed the first fully computerized,
no-radiation, diagnostic instrumentation for breast cancer.

An Israeli company developed a computerized system for ensuring proper
administration of medications, thus removing human error from medical
treatment.
Every year in U. S. hospitals 7,000 patients die from treatment
mistakes.

Israel's Givun-Imaging developed the first ingestible videocamera, so
small it fits inside a pill. Used to view the small intestine from the inside,
cancer and digestive disorders.

Researchers in Israel developed a new device that directly helps the
heart pump blood, an innovation with the potential to save lives among those
with heart failure. The new device is synchronized with the camera helps
doctors diagnose heart's mechanical operations through a sophisticated system of
sensors.

Israel leads the world in the number of scientists and technicians in
the workforce, with 145 per 10,000, as opposed to 85 in the U. S., over 70
in Japan, and less than 60 in Germany. With over 25% of its work force
employed in technical professions, Israel places first in this category as well.

A new acne treatment developed in Israel, the Clear Light device,
produces a high-intensity, ultraviolet-light-free, narrow-band blue light that
causes acne bacteria to self-destruct -- all without damaging surrounding skin
or tissue.

An Israeli company was the first to develop and install a large-scale
solar-powered and fully functional electricity generating plant, in
southern California's Mojave desert.


All the above while engaged in regular wars with an implacable enemy
that seeks its destruction, and an economy continuously under strain by
having to spend more per capita on its own protection than any other county on
earth.

Israel has the highest ratio of university degrees to the population in
the world.

THE STATE OF ISRAEL . .continues to EXCEL !

AND THE FRENCH AMBASSADOR IN ENGLAND SAYS "ISRAEL IS NOTHING BUT A
---------- (the word used was "****ty") LITTLE COUNTRY"

(My note: And what has France accomplished lately?)


[Edited by - TheSage on 07-17-2006 4:08 PM]
nyvector16
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USA
7/17/2006  4:10 PM
Israel's very existence is dependant on it's tough stance against it's aggresors.
When the whole Arab world tried to destroy Israel it was it's toughness that enabled Israel to overcome it's enemies on all sides of it's borders and ultimately squash it's enemies. If they condone these escalated tactics by Hizbollah it will only enbolden the militant group to try new and more effective tactics. The only way Israel can survive is by having the take no prisoners tough stance against it's aggresors. If it is viewed as weak.. it will only invite and encourage more violance against it's citizens.

[Edited by - nyvector16 on 07-17-2006 4:21 PM]
martin
Posts: 75062
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7/17/2006  4:31 PM
informative

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/16/weekinreview/16bronner.html?_r=1&pagewanted=print&oref=slogin

Drawn Back Into the Gyre

By ETHAN BRONNER

IT was not supposed to be this way. Just when Israelis had turned their backs on years of military occupation of Lebanon and the Gaza Strip, to international acclaim, they are again fighting in both places with no clear exit strategy.

The sense of shock is not limited to Israel. Lebanon, which last year took on a heroic hue in the West as its “Cedar Revolution” pushed Syrian troops out, thought it was on the verge of moving beyond civil war and offering a model of Middle Eastern democracy. Yet, after Hezbollah guerrillas crossed the border into Israel to kill and kidnap soldiers, Lebanon finds itself again cut off from the world, its airport runways turned into craters, its port blockaded by Israeli warships.

And the Palestinians of Gaza, who thought they finally gained a measure of control over their lives when Israeli troops and settlers left last summer, are living in semi-feudal darkness after Israel bombed its power plant and government offices. Funeral wails fill the air.

What is going on, and where will it all end?

What seems to be unfolding is an acid test of Israel’s recent strategy of seeking to extricate itself from conflict by building a barrier and generally going it alone, rather than negotiating with its adversaries. On two fronts, its antagonists have found a way to draw Israel back into the gyre. And the Israelis are again trying to extricate themselves — by making the fight even more painful than its enemies had thought it could be.

Prime Minister Ehud Olmert is a lawyer, not a general. His defense minister, Amir Peretz, spent his career as a union organizer. They were supposed to be leading a government focused not on extensive military action but on domestic unification in a period of territorial retrenchment rather than expansion. Yet they have sent the military into a two-front war, north and south, that looks to all the world like 1982 — the year Israel, while already occupying Gaza, invaded Lebanon and stayed there for 18 miserable years.

At first glance, it does look the same as “Operation Peace for Galilee” in 1982 — and there is a real risk that it will end up being so. But the intent and motivation seem to reflect new Israeli thinking, not old. Mr. Olmert, the successor to Ariel Sharon, was elected on a platform of reducing Israel’s control of territory beyond its borders. He was an advocate of the Gaza withdrawal and has spoken frequently about the need to pull Israelis out of large portions of the West Bank.

In 1982, Israel had the grandiose notion that it could remake Lebanese politics, as well as drive Palestinian guerrillas back from its northern border. Israel backed a Christian political party and its militia, and sought to outplay the Syrians at their own game of controlling Lebanon itself.

It proved to be a bad miscalculation. This time, given Syrian and Iranian sponsorship of Hezbollah, it would be easy to imagine an expanded replay, with an escalating conflict aimed at undercutting Syrian and Iranian power, just as the Hezbollah raid on Israel last week was partly an Iranian and Syrian effort to stir the regional pot. While that might indeed happen, it is not the Israeli plan now. And Israel believes it can keep the current forays under control.

It may seem paradoxical, but a helpful way to look at Israel’s military push is as an extension of Mr. Olmert’s plan for unilateral territorial reduction. From his perspective, a secure, geographically reduced Israel can not tolerate armed, hostile groups sneaking across widely recognized borders to grab Israeli soldiers, and lobbing rockets into its towns. The Israeli attacks seek to make the border areas free from such incursions.

“The real issue is the rockets that are being shot at Israel,” noted Yoel Esteron, managing editor of the newspaper Yediot Aharonot. “There is no plan whatever to stay in Gaza or Lebanon. Any Israeli government that suffered two such attacks would have done more or less the same thing.”

Israeli intelligence officials say they have evidence that the Hezbollah attack was partly ordered by Iran and its ally Syria to take attention away from international pressure on Iran over its nuclear program. If so, it would surprise no one to see Israel flex its muscles in their direction. But so far the contrary has been true. Israel has insisted that it holds the Lebanese government, rather than Iran and Syria, responsible for Hezbollah.

“In 1982, Sharon tried to create a new order in Lebanon and that was his big mistake,” observed Oded Ben-Ami, a former military spokesman and now a television journalist in Israel. “We learned our lesson — at least I hope we did.”

Uri Dromi, a former government spokesman who is now at the Israel Democracy Institute, said lessons were indeed learned, but he added that what is happening in Lebanon cannot be separated from what is happening in Iraq — the “regional superstory,” in his words. He said that Hassan Nasrallah, head of Hezbollah, a Shiite movement — like the dominant force in Iraq today — is trying to impress Arabs everywhere by working with the Palestinians against Israel.

The conflict already has had some effect in Iraq. On Friday, the firebrand Shiite cleric Moktada al-Sadr said in Baghdad that Iraqis would not “sit by with folded hands” while Israel strikes at Lebanon, signaling a possible increase in attacks from his militia on Americans in Iraq.

Mr. Nasrallah, the Hezbollah leader, said Friday that Israel’s leaders were playing with fire. “For the people of the Zionist entity in this hour, I tell them,” he said in a statement, “you will find out how much your new leadership and new government are stupid and do not know how to evaluate the issues and have no experience at this level.”

In Israel, however, most analysts have offered praise for Mr. Olmert, saying he has carried out the attacks in Lebanon with relative restraint given the stakes. And most say no broader war seems imminent.

“Israel doesn’t want to mess with Syria now, I don’t think,” Mr. Dromi said.

What is unfolding in Gaza is similar. There was a cross-border attack by militants that killed two Israeli soldiers and captured a third, as well as rocket barrages aimed at Israeli towns. And again, such actions are what most concern the Olmert government if it is to carry out its plan for reducing the hostile territory it controls.

But unlike in Lebanon, Israel has little interest in influencing the central government there. It considers the Palestinian president, Mahmoud Abbas, well-meaning but impotent and the rest of the government, led by Hamas, nothing more than a terrorist group. While in Lebanon the Israelis hope to push the central government to rein in Hezbollah, in Gaza they feel there is no meaningful distinction between the militants who seized its soldier and the central authority.

This has left the Israeli government in an unusual card game there, what a top adviser to Mr. Sharon two years ago called “playing solitaire.” The adviser, Dov Weisglass, said then, in an interview in the newspaper Haaretz, that “when there is no one sitting across from you at the table, you have no choice but to deal the cards yourself.”

In other words, Israel must carry out its territorial withdrawals essentially alone.

Mr. Olmert and his commanders believe that after enough bombardment in Gaza and Lebanon, Israeli towns will be safer, at least in the short term. Hamas and Hezbollah will run out of rockets, supply routes will be cut, and the rocket attacks will slow or stop.

What they do not know is how long that process will take — or what other regional dynamic involving Iran, Syria or the Shiites of Iraq they will unleash along the way.
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colorfl1
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7/17/2006  5:51 PM
Posted by Killa4luv:
Posted by nykshaknbake:

One thing I dun really understand is wy Isreal is targeting things like fuel depots and power plants. Won't that make the Lebanese gov't less powerful and able to comply with their demand they go nail Hezbollah. It seems that demanding is and destroying crucial non-terrorist infrastructure is counter poroductive and pretty brutal.

I have said this no less then 3 times on this thread: targeting power supplies, water treatment plants, fuel depots, food storage places, etc. is nothing more than collective punishment and the targeting of civilians. Its as simple as that. The sick, elderly, and very young are the ones hardest hit by these tactics, EVERYONE KNOWS THIS IT IS NOT A SECRET. That Israel routinely does this sort of thing is why I call it a facist or terrorist state. You do not punish an entire region for the actions of a few. No different than the US trying to punish an entire nation to try get them to revolt against Sadaam. The bottom line is it is a facist tactic, which cannot be defended.


Then you would consider the U.S. forces using cirrcuit frying technology to shut down power and comunications in Kosovo to also be a facist tactic...('');

This is a standard military technique that enables special unit forces to survey and flag points of interest on the ground while clandenstined in darkness; so that civilized armed forces can attempt the more humane surgical strikes in their tactical warfare.

Please Killa, try to be reasonable...


[Edited by - colorfl1 on 07-17-2006 5:54 PM]
PresIke
Posts: 27671
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 7/26/2001
Member: #33
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7/17/2006  6:11 PM
Posted by TheSage:

I will post one reply to this thread-my longest ever. I have been to Israel several times, have met every Prime Minister of Israel since Shamir with the exception of Olmert (have had dinner with his brother 3 times in the last two months). I say this not boastfully but to show I have some knowledge of the subject.

Israel's claim goes back 6000 years-I think that predates the Arab claim by about 5000 years. UN effectively deeded the land back to them in 1947.

Israel has no territorial desires other than defensible borders. Two weeks after the 1967 war Israel offered Gaza back to Egypt and other Arab countries which wanted no part of it. Is rael kept the West Bank (speifically Jericho and the surrounding land) for one reason -bargaining chip.

Every Israeli attack has had a strategic purpose-cutting off supplies, destroying terrorist communications and infrastructure. I almost regurgitated when one commentator on the O'Reilly Report questioned why Israel hit targets in residential areas-schmuck that it because that is where the terorist set up their headquarters, maintain supplies and communications.

Israel wants peace-nothing more-they want nothing from their neighbors-why would they. FYO the Palestinians in Israel have revceived better treatment under Israeli rule than they did under Arab domination in the deades prior when they were under Arab control.

Here's a little sample of Israeli accomplishments

The Middle East has been growing date palms for centuries. The average
tree is about 18-20 feet tall and yields about 38 pounds of dates a
year.

Israeli date trees are now yielding 400 pounds/year and are short enough
to be harvested from the ground or a short ladder.

Israel,the 100th smallest country, with less than 1/1000th of the
world's population, can lay claim to the following:


The cell phone was developed in Israel by Israelis working in the Israeli
branch of Motorola, which has its larges t development center in Israel.

Most of the Windows NT and XP operating systems were developed by
Microsoft-Israel.

The Pentium MMX Chip technology was designed in Israel at Intel.

Both the Pentium-4 microprocessor and the Centrino processor were
entirely designed, developed and produced in Israel.

The Pentium microprocessor in your computer was most likely made in
Israel.

Voice mail technology was developed in Israel.

Both Microsoft and Cisco built their only R&D facilities outside the US
in Israel.


The technology for the AOL Instant Messenger ICQ was developed in 1996
by four young Israelis.

Israel has the fourth largest air force in the world (after the U.S,
Russia and China). In addition to a large variety of other aircraft,Israel's
air force has an aerial arsenal of over 250 F-16's. This is the largest fleet of
F-16 aircraft outside of the U. S.

Israel's $100 billion economy is larger than all of its immediate
neighbors combined.

Israel has the highest percentage in the world of home computers per
capita.

According to industry officials, Israel designed the airline industry's
most impenetrable flight security. US officials now look (finally) to Israel
for advice on how to handle airborne security threats.

Israel has the highest ratio of university degrees to it's population in
the world.

Israel produces more scientific papers per capita than any other nation
by a large margin - 109 per 10,000 people -- as well as one of the highest
per capita rates of patents filed.

In proportion to its population, Israel has the largest number of
startup companies in the world. In absolute terms, Israel has the
largest numbeof startup companies than any other country in the world,
except the U.S (3,500 companies mostly in hi-tech).

With more than 3,000 high-tech companies and startups, Israel has the
highest concentration of hi-tech companies in the world -- apart from the
Silicon Valley, U. S.

Israel is ranked #2 in the world for venture capital funds right behind
the U. S..

Outside the United States and Canada, Israel has the largest number of
NASDAQ listed companies.

Israel has the highest average living standards in the Middle East.

The per capita income in 2000 was over $17,500, exceeding that of the
UK.

On a per capita basis, Israel has the largest number of biotech
startups.


Twenty-four per cent of Israel's workforce holds university degrees,
ranking third in the industrialized world, after the United States and Holland
an 12 per cent hold advanced degrees..

Israel is the only liberal democracy in the Middle East.

In 1984 and 1991, Israel airlifted a total of 22,000 Ethiopian Jews
(Operation Solomon) at Risk in Ethiopia, to safety in Israel.


When Golda Meir was elected PrimeMinister ofIsrael in 1969, she became
the world's second elected female leader in modern times.


When the U. S. Embassy in Nairobi, Kenya was bombed in 1998, Israeli
rescue teams were on the scene within a day -- and saved three victims
from the rubble.

Israel has the third highest rate of entrepreneurship -- and the highest
rate among women and among people over 55 - in the world.

Relative to its population, Israel is the largest immigrant-absorbing
nation on earth. Immigrants come in search of democracy, religious
freedom, and economic opportunity. (Hundreds of thousands from
the former Soviet Union)


Israel was the first nation in the world to adopt the Kimberly process,
an international standard that certifies diamonds as "conflict free."

Israel has the world's second highest per capita of new books.

Israel is the only country in the world that entered the 21st century
with a net gain in its number of trees, made more remarkable because
this was achieved in an area considered mainly desert.

Israel has more museums per capita than any other country.

Medicine... Israeli scientists developed the first fully computerized,
no-radiation, diagnostic instrumentation for breast cancer.

An Israeli company developed a computerized system for ensuring proper
administration of medications, thus removing human error from medical
treatment.
Every year in U. S. hospitals 7,000 patients die from treatment
mistakes.

Israel's Givun-Imaging developed the first ingestible videocamera, so
small it fits inside a pill. Used to view the small intestine from the inside,
cancer and digestive disorders.

Researchers in Israel developed a new device that directly helps the
heart pump blood, an innovation with the potential to save lives among those
with heart failure. The new device is synchronized with the camera helps
doctors diagnose heart's mechanical operations through a sophisticated system of
sensors.

Israel leads the world in the number of scientists and technicians in
the workforce, with 145 per 10,000, as opposed to 85 in the U. S., over 70
in Japan, and less than 60 in Germany. With over 25% of its work force
employed in technical professions, Israel places first in this category as well.

A new acne treatment developed in Israel, the Clear Light device,
produces a high-intensity, ultraviolet-light-free, narrow-band blue light that
causes acne bacteria to self-destruct -- all without damaging surrounding skin
or tissue.

An Israeli company was the first to develop and install a large-scale
solar-powered and fully functional electricity generating plant, in
southern California's Mojave desert.


All the above while engaged in regular wars with an implacable enemy
that seeks its destruction, and an economy continuously under strain by
having to spend more per capita on its own protection than any other county on
earth.

Israel has the highest ratio of university degrees to the population in
the world.

THE STATE OF ISRAEL . .continues to EXCEL !

AND THE FRENCH AMBASSADOR IN ENGLAND SAYS "ISRAEL IS NOTHING BUT A
---------- (the word used was "****ty") LITTLE COUNTRY"

(My note:

Simply because the U.N. granted Zionists the state of Israel in 1947, or that some Jews see their claim to the land as "older" than Palestinians does not suddenly erase the fact that the most staunch Zionists were Eastern European (aka not from Israel for thousands of years), the Palestinians should have had some say in the process, and is an example of how the West has continually disregarded views, cultures and peoples who are not of their own background -- A MAJOR REASON WHY THE CONFLICT IN ISRAEL CONTINUES TO EXIST.

The U.N., for all of the great things it has done, is and has been at the mercy of the permanent members of the Security Council of whom the most powerful nations that won WW II are all part of (The U.S., U.K., France, China & Russia). Those countries had a vested interest in putting people of European decent (aka allies) in that region, (for strategic and economic reasons) and since it was not in the mainstream consciousness of most people of those nations that taking or dominating land that other people lived on was an inherit wrong Israel was granted to and run by white European Jews, while the Palestinians -- no matter if they were their later than the ancient Jews or not -- were living there and given no say in their future for decades before and after the creation of Israel as a state.

I think we should avoid using propaganda for either side because it distorts the important issues. The fact is that since Israel was created without the consent or concern for Palestinians, or how it might cause tension with Arabs is a central issue that seems to be glossed over by those who see Hamas and Hezbollah as purely "terrorists." It distorts the fact that these people feel marginalized because they are as proud as the Israelis/Jews but feel humiliated. Does that justify launching missiles into Haifa, etc.? No, but it means that the core issues have been abandoned by Israel because it feels that it has done all it can. I would argue that they have not, nor have many in the West, or the Arab & Muslim world to help the situation either. The killing needs to stop on both sides. I always hear that Israelis want peace, but so do most Palestinians and Arabs too. They may sympathize with suicide bombers, etc. but that doesn't mean one thinks its the best answer to the problem either.
Forum Po Po and #33 for a reason...
PresIke
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7/17/2006  6:18 PM
Posted by McK1:
The Holocaust wasnt just terrible beacause of the extermination of Jews and other minorities (gays, gypsies etc.), it was terrible because of the way it happened. Nothing like that has ever occured throughout the length and breadth of human history, and please God it never will again. So dont talk to me about victims.

I've read through this thread comment-less because I've been learning through-out it but I had to speak when I read this.

there are no words to describe what occurred during the Holocost. I recall reading Night by Elie Wiesel and feeling my stomach twist as I read gory detail after detail. However, have you ever read any recount of the Trans-Atlantic slave trade? The atrocities committed by Europe on mainland Africa, the body count that boiled the Atlantic, and the amount of humans slaughtered both from Africa and from North and South America once posts were established dwarfs the count loss during Hitlers reign.

Not only wholes of peoples but whole histories and heritages totally erased. The advancements of society didn't occur in Europe during the Middle Ages, it was in the Americas and Africa. "Colonizers" came and learned then returned and destroyed virtually all of that. The people of Africa were hit harder than any other race of people on the PLANET. The effects of the slave trade are still lingering.

Once posts were established, the pyscho-freaks of that day devised a system of categorically dividing black people amongst themselves based on the color of their skin.

thats where limricks such as

if you're white you're alright
if you're yellow you're mellow
if you're brown stick around
if you're black stay back

originate of.

to this day in the eyes of many these color walls within the race exist. The Black race has been targetted and persecuted like no other. All links to who we were as a people - which in the remnants of historical data left show we were indeed World Kings and Queens and Chief Advancers of Science Thought Art Spirituality and Civilization are for the most part unavailable to those living in this day of America.

as recently as a little over a century ago - when there is no denying the bits uncovered - scientific thought decided that the people of Africa were descended from monkeys and made the Piltdown man as "proof" of this. "Scientists" actually tried to forge a monkey and humans skull and pass it off as a history of a people. What greater degredation is that?

I don't mean to veer the discussion off track so I'll end here.

[Edited by - McK1 on 07-17-2006 08:33 AM]

[Edited by - McK1 on 07-17-2006 08:39 AM]

Nice post, McK1. I don't consider your point off topic because it provides perspective. Part of the difficulty in resolving the Israel-Arab/Palestinian/Muslim conflict, in my view, is that there are a good number of those within each group that feel like they are the worse victim through history, and that the group on the other side of the conflict is one of the worst offending victimizers. To top it off each of them is also VERY proud and resilient.

Somehow this has to be addressed, but I highly doubt extended use of violence will end up being the solution.

Forum Po Po and #33 for a reason...
colorfl1
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7/17/2006  7:48 PM
It is very simple to cast these problems on those misplaced Jews.... but what of the Jews of Hebron that had lived there for generations that were masacred until they fled?('');

The Hebron Massacres of 1929...

The summer of 1929 was one of unrest in Palestine. Jewish-Arab tensions were spurred on by the agitation of the mufti in Jerusalem. Just one day prior to the start of the Hebron massacre, three Jews and three Arabs were killed in Jerusalem when fighting broke out after a Muslim prayer service on the Temple Mount. Arabs spread false rumors throughout their communities, saying that Jews were carrying out "wholesale killings of Arabs." Meanwhile, Jewish immigrants were arriving in Palestine in increasing numbers, further exacerbating the Jewish-Arab conflict.

Hebron had, until this time, been outwardly peaceful, although tension hid below the surface. The Sephardi Jewish community in Hebron had lived quietly with its Arab neighbors for centuries. The Sephardi Jews (Jews who were originally from Spain, North Africa and Arab countries) spoke Arabic and had a cultural connection to their Arab neighbors. In the mid-1800s, Ashkenazi (native European) Jews started moving to Hebron and, in 1925, the Slobodka Yeshiva, officially the Yeshiva of Hevron, Knesset Yisrael-Slobodka, was opened. Yeshiva students lived separately from the Sephardi community, and from the Arab population. Due to this isolation, the Arabs viewed them with suspicion and hatred, and identified them as Zionist immigrants. Despite the general suspicion, however, one yeshiva student, Dov Cohen, still recalled being on "very good" terms with the Arab neighbors. He remembered yeshiva boys taking long walks late at night on the outskirts of the city, and not feeling afraid, even though only one British policeman guarded the entire city.

On Friday, August 23, 1929, that tranquility was lost. Arab youths started throwing rocks at the yeshiva students. That afternoon, one student, Shmuel Rosenholtz, went to the yeshiva alone. Arab rioters later broke in and killed him, and that was only the beginning.

Friday night, Rabbi Ya’acov Slonim’s son invited any fearful Jews to stay in his house. The rabbi was highly regarded in the community, and he had a gun. Many Jews took him up on this offer, and many Jews were eventually murdered there.

As early as 8:00 a.m. on Saturday, the Jewish Sabbath, Arabs began to gather en masse. They came in mobs, armed with clubs, knives and axes. While the women and children threw stones, the men ransacked Jewish houses and destroyed Jewish property. With only a single police officer in Hebron, the Arabs entered Jewish courtyards with no opposition.

Rabbi Slonim, who had tried to shelter the Jewish population, was approached by the rioters and offered a deal. If all the Ashkenazi yeshiva students were given over to the Arabs, the rioters would spare the lives of the Sephardi community. Rabbi Slonim refused to turn over the students and was killed on the spot. In the end, 12 Sephardi Jews and 55 Ashkenazi Jews were murdered.

A few Arabs did try to help the Jews. Nineteen Arab families saved dozens, maybe even hundreds of Jews. Zmira Mani wrote about an Arab named Abu Id Zaitoun who brought his brother and son to rescue her and her family. The Arab family protected the Manis with their swords, hid them in a cellar along with other Jews who they had saved, and found a policeman to escort them safely to the police station at Beit Romano.

The police station turned into a shelter for the Jews that morning of August 24. It also became a synagogue as the Orthodox Jews gathered there and said their morning prayers. As they finished praying, they began to hear noises outside the building. Thousands of Arabs descended from Har Hebron, shouting "Kill the Jews!" in Arabic. They even tried to break down the doors of the station.

The Jews were besieged in Beit Romano for three days. Each night, ten men were allowed to leave to attend a funeral in Hebron’s ancient Jewish cemetery for the murdered Jews of the day.

When the massacre finally ended, the surviving Jews were forced to leave their home city and resettled in Jerusalem. Some Jewish families tried to move back to Hebron, but were removed by the British authorities in 1936 at the start of the Arab revolt. In 1948, the War of Independence granted Israel statehood, but further cut the Jews off from Hebron, a city that was captured by King Abdullah's Arab Legion and ultimately annexed to Jordan.

When Jews finally gained control of the city in 1967, a small number of massacre survivors again tried to reclaim their old houses. Then defense minister Moshe Dayan supposedly told the survivors that if they returned, they would be arrested, and that they should be patient while the government worked out a solution to get their houses back. Years later, settlers moved to parts of Hebron without the permission of the government, but for those massacre survivors still seeking their original homes, that solution never came.

Sources: Arutz Sheva, Interview with Rabbi Dov Cohen, (August 1, 1999). Ben-David, Calev, “To live and die in Hebron,” The Jerusalem Post, (July 23, 1999). See also: Hebron.



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7/17/2006  8:22 PM

Arab world fed up with Hizbullah


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Khaled Abu Toameh, Jul. 17, 2006

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With the exception of the Palestinians, the Arab world appears to be united in blaming Iran and Syria for the fighting in Lebanon. Until last week, Arab political analysts and government officials were reluctant to criticize Hizbullah in public. But now that Hizbullah Secretary-General Hassan Nasrallah and his top aides are in hiding, an anti-Hizbullah coalition is emerging not only in Lebanon, but in several other Arab countries as well.

The Palestinians and Hizbullah feel that their Arab brethren have once again turned their backs on them. On Monday, hundreds of Palestinians who marched in downtown Ramallah in support of Hizbullah chanted: "Hassan Nasrallah is our hero, the rest of the Arab leaders are cowards" and "O beloved Abu Hadi [Nasrallah's nickname], bomb, bomb Tel Aviv." The second battle cry is reminiscent of the famous slogan the Palestinians used during the first Gulf War: "O beloved Saddam, bomb, bomb Tel Aviv."

Hizbullah and their supporters were hoping that the massive Israeli military operation in Lebanon would trigger large-scale protests throughout the Arab world, creating instability and threatening to bring down some of the Arab regimes.

But the response on the Arab street has been so disappointing for Hizbullah that its leaders are now openly talking about an Arab "conspiracy" to liquidate the Shi'ite organization. The few Hizbullah supporters in Ramallah, the Gaza Strip and some Arab capitals have therefore been directing most of their criticism against the Arab presidents and monarchs, accusing them of serving the interests of the US and Israel.

The anti-Hizbullah coalition, which appears to be growing with every Israeli missile that drops on the heads of Hizbullah leaders and headquarters, is spearheaded by Saudi Arabia, Egypt and Jordan. These three countries, together with many Arab commentators and political analysts, are convinced that the leaders of Teheran and Damascus are using Hizbullah to divert attention from Iran's nuclear program and Syria's involvement in the assassination of former Lebanese prime minister Rafik Hariri.

The Saudis were the first to openly criticize Hizbullah, paving the way for other Arab countries to follow suit. The message coming out of these countries is that the Arabs and Muslims can't afford to allow an irresponsible and adventurous organization like Hizbullah to drag the region to war. Government spokesmen and officials, as well as prominent Arab editors and commentators, have shown no sympathy for Hizbullah while appearing on pan-Arab TV networks like Al-Jazeera and Abu Dhabi.

The Saudi position, which surprised Hizbullah and its supporters, was outlined by an anonymous official, who said that the people should distinguish between legitimate resistance and dangerous adventurism by some parties without cooperation from their governments and the Arab states.

The Saudi stand reflected the position of all the Gulf countries, which are unhappy not only with Hizbullah, but with Hamas as well. The Gulf countries are of the opinion that Hizbullah and Hamas are acting on orders from Teheran and Damascus.

That's why most Arab governments have refrained from making efforts to resolve the current crisis. As one government official in the Gulf explained: "We cannot play the role of mediators upon the request of some parties that act without taking into consideration the consequences of their actions." Similar sentiments have been reflected in a series of articles that appeared in the Arab media over the past few days. Some of the articles appear as if they had been written by Israeli government spokesmen. Ironically, the fact that Hizbullah and Hamas are now on the defensive has encouraged many Arabs to come out against the two groups in public.

Wadi Batti, an Iraqi columnist, said the Arabs should realize that militias and gangsters will only worsen their conditions. "The Lebanese example confirms the fears of Arabs about the presence of armed militias that threaten our stability and security," he wrote.

"By initiating the confrontation with Israel, Hizbullah has made a mockery of the Lebanese government and leaders, who are now seen as pawns in the hands of Nasrallah. How long will the Arabs continue to fight on behalf of Iran?"

Echoing the mood among most of his Lebanese fellow Christians, Joseph Bishara said: "Hizbullah is trying to provoke Israel into war to divert attention from the mistakes made by the Syrian and Iranian regimes. Bashar Assad and Ali Khamenei are using Hizbullah to achieve their direct and indirect goals in the region. They used Hizbullah to ease the pressure exerted by the international community on Syria and Iran.

"How can we ask Israel to have mercy on the Lebanese while Hizbullah is betraying Lebanon day and night?"

Bishara, whose article appeared on the Saudi-owned Elaph Web site, went as far as describing Syria and Iran as the real enemies of Lebanon. Today, he added, "Lebanon is paying the price for the sins of its real enemies - Syria and Iran, which don't dare confront Israel militarily and diplomatically. The time has come to neutralize and disarm Hizbullah before it becomes an illegitimate state inside Lebanon. Hizbullah's weapons threaten Lebanon's stability before they threaten Israel."

Tarek Hamo, another prominent Arab commentator, mocked Nasrallah, drawing parallels between him and ousted Iraqi dictator Saddam Hussein. "The statements of Hassan Nasrallah remind me of the statements made by Saddam Hussein on the eve of the US invasion of Iraq," he said. "Saddam, whose army generals fled their positions in Baghdad just before the invasion, also issued threats to destroy the Americans if they entered Baghdad. Nasrallah is now in hiding and his fate won't be better than that of Saddam, whose was hiding in a deep hole."

Writing in the influential pan-Arab London-based Asharq Al-Awsat newspaper, columnist Iyad Abu Shakra said that many Lebanese were surprised by the Hizbullah operation and the kidnapping of the two Israeli soldiers.

"They were especially shocked by the timing of the attack - at the beginning of the tourism season that was supposed to provide income for over two million Lebanese families at a time when Lebanon is suffering a $40 million deficit in its budget," he pointed out. "What's really amazing is that Hizbullah's supporters and officials have underestimated the damages, especially to the tourism sector, by claiming that the only ones who were going to benefit from the tourism season were those who love humous and women."

Trying to explain the Arab attitude, Palestinian political analyst Ashraf al-Ajrami noted that many Arab countries were afraid of Iran and did not want to see the Iranians spread their influence. "The Arab countries, particularly Saudi Arabia, Egypt and Jordan, believe that no party has the right to drag the entire region to a military confrontation with Israel," he wrote in the Ramallah-based Al-Ayyam daily.

"These countries believe that there is no room for mistakes and adventures. The Arabs are worried about Iran's plans in the region, especially with regards to Iraq and the development of nuclear weapons, and their attempts to influence events in Lebanon and Palestine. A large number of Arab countries, particularly in the Gulf, see Iran as a future adversary."
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7/17/2006  8:37 PM
To undertand today it is essential to understand yesterday...


1929 Palestine riots
(From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia)

In September 1928, Jews at their Yom Kippur prayers at the Western Wall placed chairs as customary screens between the men and women present. This was described as violating the Ottoman status quo that forbade Jews from making any 'construction' in the Western Wall area. Haj Amin al Husseini, the Mufti of Jerusalem, used this incident as propaganda material, distributing leaflets to Arabs in Palestine and throughout the Arab world, claiming that the Jews are planning to take over Al Aksa, and that action must be taken to stop them.
In the summer of 1929, most of the British forces were on summer vacation in England, mostly because of the quiet that had reigned in Palestine for the last eight years; Haj Amin al Husseini saw an opportunity, and with rumors and leaflets, apparently prepared in advance, declared that the Jews were preparing to take control of the holy places, and that Muslims should come to Jerusalem to defend them. On Friday, August 16, 1929, after an inflammatory sermon, a demonstration organized by the Supreme Muslim Council marched to the Wall and proceeded to burn prayer books and supplicatory notes left in the Wall's cracks. Responding to the Jewish protests, acting High Commissioner Harry Luke answered that "no prayer books had been burnt but only pages of prayer books." The riots continued, and the next day one Jew was killed in the Bukharan Quarter. His funeral was turned into a political demonstration.
On August 20, Haganah leaders proposed to provide defense for 600 Jews of the Old Yishuv in Hebron, or to help them evacuate, but the community leaders declined these offers, insisting that they trusted the A'yan (Arab leadership) to protect them.
The next Friday, 23 August, Arabs, inflamed by false rumors that two Arabs had been killed by Jews, started a murderous attack on Jews in the Old City. The violence quickly spread to other parts of Palestine, with Arab policemen often joining the mobs.
Throughout Palestine, British authorities had only 292 policemen, fewer than 100 soldiers, six armored cars, and five or six aircraft.
While a number of Jews were being killed at the Jaffa Gate, British policemen did not open fire. By August 24, 17 Jews were killed in the Jerusalem area.
The worst atrocities occurred in Hebron and Safed, where massacres of Jews occurred. In Hebron, Arab mobs killed 65-68 Jews[1], wounded 58, and raped women.[2][3]. The lone British policeman in the town, Raymond Cafferata, was overwhelmed, and the reinforcements he called for did not arrive for 5 hours (leading to bitter recriminations).
Cafferata later testified that:
"On hearing screams in a room I went up a sort of tunnel passage and saw an Arab in the act of cutting off a child's head with a sword. He had already hit him and was having another cut, but on seeing me he tried to aim the stroke at me, but missed; he was practically on the muzzle of my rifle. I shot him low in the groin. Behind him was a Jewish woman smothered in blood with a man I recognized as a[n Arab] police constable named Issa Sherif from Jaffa in mufti. He was standing over the woman with a dagger in his hand. He saw me and bolted into a room close by and tried to shut me out-shouting in Arabic, "Your Honor, I am a policeman." ... I got into the room and shot him."
The remaining Jews survived by hiding in their Arab neighbors' houses. The surviving Jews were evacuated from the town.
The other major centers of violence were in Safed, where 18 Jews were killed in a brief attack, and in Jerusalem.
During the week of riots, the fatalities were:
Killed: 133 Jews, 116 Arabs.
Wounded: 339 Jews, 232 Arabs.
The Jews killed were mostly unarmed civilians killed by Arabs, while the Arabs killed were mostly rioters killed by British-commanded police and soldiers.
On September 1, Sir John Chancellor condemned "the atrocious acts committed by bodies of ruthless and bloodthirsty evildoers... murders perpetrated upon defenseless members of the Jewish population... accompanied by acts of unspeakable savagery."
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7/17/2006  8:50 PM
Posted by Killa4luv:
Posted by nykshaknbake:

One thing I dun really understand is wy Isreal is targeting things like fuel depots and power plants. Won't that make the Lebanese gov't less powerful and able to comply with their demand they go nail Hezbollah. It seems that demanding is and destroying crucial non-terrorist infrastructure is counter poroductive and pretty brutal.

I have said this no less then 3 times on this thread: targeting power supplies, water treatment plants, fuel depots, food storage places, etc. is nothing more than collective punishment and the targeting of civilians. Its as simple as that. The sick, elderly, and very young are the ones hardest hit by these tactics, EVERYONE KNOWS THIS IT IS NOT A SECRET. That Israel routinely does this sort of thing is why I call it a facist or terrorist state. You do not punish an entire region for the actions of a few. No different than the US trying to punish an entire nation to try get them to revolt against Sadaam. The bottom line is it is a facist tactic, which cannot be defended.

You can say it as much as you want, but on this point as with many others you have made you are wrong.

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7/17/2006  8:51 PM
Just the facts Maam...

Is their hatred from the situation or is the situation because of their hatred...('');


Truth in the Middle East


History Of Jews In Arab Countries:

Before and after 1948



Syria Egypt Iraq Algeria Yemen Morocco Tunisia Libya
THE PERSECUTION OF JEWS IN SYRIA BEFORE 1948

The last Jews who wanted to leave Syria departed with the chief rabbi in October 1994. Prior to 1947, there were some 30,000 Jews made up of three distinct communities, each with its own traditions: the Kurdish-speaking Jews of Kamishli, the Jews of Aleppo with roots in Spain, and the original eastern Jews of Damascus, called Must'arab. Today only a tiny remnant of these communities remains.

The Jewish presence in Syria dates back to biblical times and is intertwined with the history of Jews in neighboring Eretz Israel. With the advent of Christianity, restrictions were imposed on the community. The Arab conquest in 636 A.D, however, greatly improved the lot of the Jews. Unrest in neighboring Iraq in the 10th century resulted in Jewish migration to Syria and brought about a boom in commerce, banking, and crafts. During the reign of the Fatimids, the Jew Menashe Ibrahim El-Kazzaz ran the Syrian administration, and he granted Jews positions in the government.

Syrian Jewry supported the aspirations of the Arab nationalists and Zionism, and Syrian Jews believed that the two parties could be reconciled and that the conflict in Palestine could be resolved. However, following Syrian independence from France in 1946, attacks against Jews and their property increased, culminating in the pogroms of 1947, which left all shops and synagogues in Aleppo in ruins. Thousands of Jews fled the country, and their homes and property were taken over by the local Muslims.

For the next decades, Syrian Jews were, in effect, hostages of a hostile regime. They could leave Syria only on the condition that they leave members of their family behind. Thus the community lived under siege, constantly under fearful surveillance of the secret police. This much was allowed due to an international effort to secure the human rights of the Jews, the changing world order, and the Syrian need for Western support; so the conditions of the Jews improved somewhat.


THE PERSECUTION OF JEWS IN EGYPT PRIOR TO 1948

Jews have lived in Egypt since Biblical times, and the conditions of the community have constantly fluctuated with the political situation of the land. Israelite tribes first moved to the Land of Goshen (the northeastern edge of the Nile Delta) during the reign of the Egyptian pharaoh Amenhotep IV (1375-1358 B.C).

During the reign of Ramses II (1298-1232 B.C), they were enslaved for the Pharaoh's building projects. His successor, Merneptah, continued the same anti-Jewish policies, and around the year 1220 B.C, the Jews revolted and escaped across the Sinai to Canaan. This is the biblical Exodus commemorated in the holiday of Passover. Over the years, many Jews in Eretz Israel who were not deported to Babylon sought shelter in Egypt, among them the prophet Jeremiah. By 1897 there were more than 25,000 Jews in Egypt, concentrated in Cairo and Alexandria. In 1937 the population reached a peak of 63,500.

Friedman wrote in "The Myth of Arab Tolerance", "One Caliph, Al-Hakem of the Fatimids devised particularly insidious humiliations for the Jews in his attempt to perform what he deemed his role as "Redeemer of Mankind". First the Jews were forced to wear miniature golden calf images around their necks, as though they still worshipped the golden calf, but the Jews refused to convert. Next they wore bells, and after that six pound wooden blocks were hung around their necks. In fury at his failure, the Caliph had the Cairo Jewish quarter destroyed, along with it's Jewish residence, in".

In 1945, with the rise of Egyptian nationalism and the cultivation of anti-Western and anti-Jewish sentiment, riots erupted. In the violence, 10 Jews were killed, 350 injured, and a synagogue, a Jewish hospital, and an old-age home were burned down. The establishment of the State of Israel led to still further anti-Jewish feeling: Between June and November 1948, bombs set off in the Jewish Quarter killed more than 70 Jews and wounded nearly 200. 2,000 Jews were arrested and many had their property confiscated.

Rioting over the next few months resulted in many more Jewish deaths. Between June and November 1948, bombs set off in the Jewish Quarter killed more than 70 Jews and wounded nearly 200.

Jews In 1956: The Egyptian government used the Sinai Campaign as a pretext for expelling almost 25,000 Egyptian Jews and confiscating their property.

Approximately 1,000 more Jews were sent to prisons and detention camps. On November 23, 1956, a proclamation signed by the Minister of Religious Affairs, and read aloud in mosques throughout Egypt, declared that "all Jews are Zionists and enemies of the state," and promised that they would be soon expelled.

Thousands of Jews were ordered to leave the country. They were allowed to take only one suitcase and a small sum of cash, and forced to sign declarations "donating" their property to the Egyptian government. Foreign observers reported that members of Jewish families were taken hostage, apparently to insure that those forced to leave did not speak out against the Egyptian government. AP, (November 26 and 29th 1956; New York World Telegram).

In 1979, the Egyptian Jewish community became the first in the Arab world to establish official contact with Israel. Israel now has an embassy in Cairo and a consulate general in Alexandria. At present, the few remaining Jews are free to practice Judaism without any restrictions or harassment. Shaar Hashamayim is the only functioning synagogue in Cairo. Of the many synagogues in Alexandria only the Eliahu Hanabi is open for worship.

By 1957 it had fallen to 15,000. In 1967, after the Six-Day War, there was a renewed wave of persecution, and the community dropped to 2,500. By the 1970s, after the remaining Jews were given permission to leave the country, the community dwindled to a few families. Jewish rights were finally restored in 1979 after President Anwar Sadat signed the Camp David Accords with Israel. Only then was the community allowed to establish ties with Israel and with world Jewry. The majority of Jews reside in Cairo, but there are still a handful in Alexandria. In addition there are about 15 Karaites in the community. Nearly all the Jews are elderly, and the community is on the verge of extinction.



THE PERSECUTION OF JEWS IN IRAQ PRIOR TO 1948

The Iraqi Jews took pride in their distinguished Jewish community, with it's history of scholarship and dignity. Jews had prospered in what was then Babylonia for 1200 years before the Muslim conquest in AD 634; it was not until the 9th century that Dhimmi laws such as the yellow patch, heavy head tax, and residence restriction were enforced. Capricious and extreme oppression under some Arab caliphs and Momlukes brought taxation amounting to expropriation in AD 1000, and 1333 the persecution culminated in pillage and destruction of the Bagdad Sanctuary. In 1776, there was a slaughter of Jews at Bosra, and in bitterness of anti-Jewish measures taken by Turkish Muslim rulers in the 18th century caused many Jews to flee. The Iraqi Jewish community is one of the oldest in the world and has a great history of learning and scholarship. Abraham, the father of the Jewish people, was born in Ur of the Chaldees, in southern Iraq, around 2,000 A.D.

The community traces its history back to 6th century A.D, when Nebuchadnezzar conquered Judea and sent most of the population into exile in Babylonia.

The community also maintained strong ties with the Land of Israel and, with the aid of rabbis from Israel, succeeded in establishing many prominent rabbinical academies. By the 3rd century, Babylonia became the center of Jewish scholarship, as is attested to by the community's most influential creation, the Babylonian Talmud. Under Muslim rule, beginning in the 7th century, the situation of the community fluctuated. Many Jews held high positions in government or prospered in commerce and trade. At the same time, Jews were subjected to special taxes, restrictions on their professional activity, and anti-Jewish incitement among the masses. Under British rule, which began in 1917, Jews fared well economically, and many were elected to government posts. This traditionally observant community was also allowed to found Zionist organizations and to pursue Hebrew studies.

All of this progress ended when Iraq gained independence in 1932. In June 1941, the Mufti-inspired, pro-Nazi coup of Rashid Ali sparked rioting and a pogrom in Baghdad. Armed Iraqi mobs, with the complicity of the police and the army, murdered 180 Jews and wounded almost 1,000.

Although emigration was prohibited, many Jews made their way to Israel during this period with the aid of an underground movement. In 1950 the Iraqi parliament finally legalized emigration to Israel, and between May 1950 and August 1951, the Jewish Agency and the Israeli government succeeded in airlifting approximately 110,000 Jews to Israel in Operations Ezra and Nehemiah. This figure includes 18,000 Kurdish Jews, who have many distinct traditions. Thus a community that had reached a peak of 150,000 in 1947 dwindled to a mere 6,000 after 1951.

Additional outbreaks of anti-Jewish rioting occurred between 1946-49. After the establishment of Israel in 1948, Zionism became a capital crime.

THE PERSECUTION OF JEWS IN IRAQ AFTER 1948

In 1950, Iraqi Jews were permitted to leave the country within a year provided they forfeited their citizenship. A year later, however, the property of Jews who emigrated was frozen and economic restrictions were placed on Jews who chose to remain in the country. From 1949 to 1951, 104,000 Jews were evacuated from Iraq in Operations Ezra and Nehemiah; another 20,000 were smuggled out through Iran. In 1952, Iraq's government barred Jews from emigrating and publicly hanged two Jews after falsely charging them with hurling a bomb at the Baghdad office of the U.S. Information Agency.

With the rise of competing Ba'ath factions in 1963, additional restrictions were placed on the remaining Iraqi Jews. The sale of property was forbidden and all Jews were forced to carry yellow identity cards. After the Six-Day War, more repressive measures were imposed: Jewish property was expropriated; Jewish bank accounts were frozen; Jews were dismissed from public posts; businesses were shut; trading permits were cancelled; telephones were disconnected. Jews were placed under house arrest for long periods of time or restricted to the cities.

Persecution was at its worst at the end of 1968. Scores were jailed upon the discovery of a local "spy ring" composed of Jewish businessmen. Fourteen men-eleven of them Jews-were sentenced to death in staged trials and hanged in the public squares of Baghdad; others died of torture. On January 27, 1969, Baghdad Radio called upon Iraqis to "come and enjoy the feast." Some 500,000 men, women and children paraded and danced past the scaffolds where the bodies of the hanged Jews swung; the mob rhythmically chanted "Death to Israel" and "Death to all traitors." This display brought a world-wide public outcry that Radio Baghdad dismissed by declaring: "We hanged spies, but the Jews crucified Christ." (Judith Miller and Laurie Mylroie, Saddam Hussein and the Crisis in the Gulf, p. 34).

Jews remained under constant surveillance by the Iraqi government. Max Sawadayee, in "All Waiting to be Hanged" writes a testimony of an Iraqi Jew (who later escaped): "The dehumanization of the Jewish personality resulting from continuous humiliation and torment...have dragged us down to the lowest level of our physical and mental faculties, and deprived us of the power to recover.".

In response to international pressure, the Baghdad government quietly allowed most of the remaining Jews to emigrate in the early 1970's, even while leaving other restrictions in force. Most of Iraq's remaining Jews are now too old to leave. They have been pressured by the government to turn over title, without compensation, to more than $200 million worth of Jewish community property. (New York Times, February 18, 1973).

Only one synagogue continues to function in Iraq, "a crumbling buff-colored building tucked away in an alleyway" in Baghdad. According to the synagogue's administrator, "there are few children to be bar-mitzvahed, or couples to be married. Jews can practice their religion but are not allowed to hold jobs in state enterprises or join the army." (New York Times Magazine, February 3, 1985).

In 1991, prior to the Gulf War, the State Department said "there is no recent evidence of overt persecution of Jews, but the regime restricts travel, (particularly to Israel) and contacts with Jewish groups abroad.".

Persecutions continued, especially after the Six-Day War in 1967, when many of the remaining 3,000 Jews were arrested and dismissed from their jobs.

Finally in Iraq all the Jews were forced to leave between 1948 and 1952 and leave everything behind. Jews were publicly hanged in the center of Baghdad with enthusiastic mobs as audiences.

The Jews were persecuted throughout the centuries in all the Arabic speaking countries. One time, Baghdad was one-fifth Jewish and other communities had first been established 2,500 years ago. Today, approximately 61 Jews are left in Baghdad and another 200 or so are in Kurdish areas in the north. Only one synagogue remains in Bataween, - once Baghdad's main Jewish neighborhood.-

The rabbi died in 1996 and none of the remaining Jews can perform the liturgy and only a couple know Hebrew. (Associated Press, March 28, 1998).

THE PERSECUTION OF JEWS IN ALGERIA PRIOR TO 1948

Jewish settlement in present-day Algeria can be traced back to the first centuries of the Common Era. In the 14th century, with the deterioration of conditions in Spain, many Spanish Jews moved to Algeria. Among them were a number of outstanding scholars, including the Ribash and the Rashbatz.

After the French occupation of the country in 1830, Jews gradually adopted French culture and were granted French citizenship.

On the eve of the civil war that gripped the country in the late 1950s, there were some 130,000 Jews in Algeria, approximately 30,000 of whom lived in the capital. Nearly all Algerian Jews fled the country shortly after it gained independence from France in 1962. Most of the remaining Jews live in Algiers, but there are individual Jews in Oran and Blida. A single synagogue functions in Algiers, although there is no resident rabbi. All other synagogues have been taken over for use as mosques.

In 1934, a Nazi-incited pogrom in Constantine left 25 Jews dead and scores injured. After being granted independence in 1962, the Algerian government harassed the Jewish community and deprived Jews of their principle economic rights. As a result, almost 130,000 Algerian Jews immigrated to France. Since 1948, 25,681 Algerian Jews have emigrated to Israel.
THE PERSECUTION OF JEWS IN YEMEN PRIOR TO 1948

In Yemen from the seventh century on the Jewish populations suffered the severest possible interpretation of the Charter of Omar. For about 4 centuries, the Jews suffered under the fierce fanatical edict of the most intolerant Islamic sects. The Yemen Epistle by Rambam in which he commiserated with Yemen's Jewry and besought them to keep the faith, and in 1724 fanatical rulers ordered synagogues destroyed, and Jewish public prayers were forbidden. The Jews were exiled, many died from starvation and the survivors were ordered to settle in Mausa, but later, this order was annulled by a decree in 1781 due to the need of their skilled craftsmen. Jacob Sappir a Jerusalem writer describes Yemeni Jews in Yemen in 1886: "The Arab natives have always considered the Jew unclean, but his blood for them was not considered unclean. They lay claims to all his belongings, and if he is unwilling, they employ force...The Jews live outside the town in dark dwellings like prison cells or caves out of
fear...for the least offense, he is sentenced to outrageous fines, which he is quite unable to pay. In case of non-payment, he is put in chains and cruelly beaten every day. Before the punishment is inflicted, the Cadi[judge] addresses him in gentle tones and urges him to change his faith and obtain a share of all the glory of this world and of the world beyond. His refusal is again regarded as penal obstinacy. On the other hand, it is not open to the Jew to prosecute a Muslim, as the Muslim by right of law can dispose of the life and the property of the Jew, and it is only to be regarded as an act of magnanimity if the Jews are allowed to live. The Jew is not admissible as a witness, nor has his oath any validity.".

Danish-German explorer Garsten Neibuhr visited Yemen in 1762 described Jewish life in Yemen: "By day they work in their shops in San'a, but by night they must withdraw to their isolated dwellings, shortly before my arrival, 12 of the 14 synagogues of the Jews were torn down, and all their beautiful houses wrecked".

The Jews did not improve until the establishment of the French Protectorate in 1912, when they were given equality and religious autonomy. However, during World War II, when France was ruled by the anti-Semitic Vichy government, King Muhammed V prevented the deportation of Jews from Morocco. In 1922, the government of Yemen reintroduced an ancient Islamic law that decreed that Jewish orphans under age 12 were to be forcibly converted to Islam.

In 1947, after the partition vote, Muslim rioters, joined by the local police force, engaged in a bloody pogrom in Aden that killed 82 Jews and destroyed hundreds of Jewish homes. Aden's Jewish community was economically paralyzed, as most of the Jewish stores and businesses were destroyed. Early in 1948, looting occurred after six Jews were falsely accused of the ritual murder of two Arab girls. (Howard Sachar, A History of Israel). By 1948 there were some 270,000 Jews in Morocco. In an atmosphere of uncertainty and grinding poverty, many Jews elected to leave for Israel, France, the United States, and Canada.

Finally, nearly 50,000 traditionally religious Yemeni Jews, who had never seen a plane, were airlifted to Israel in 1949 and in 1950 in Operation "Magic Carpet.". Since the Book of Isaiah promised, "They shall mount up with wings, as eagles". The Jewish community bordered "The Eagles" contentedly; to the pilots consternation some of them lit a bon fire aboard, to cook their food.

THE PERSECUTION OF JEWS IN MOROCCO PRIOR TO 1948

The Jewish community of present-day Morocco dates back more than 2,000 years. There were Jews living there, before it became a Roman province. in 1032 AD, 6000 Jews were murdered. Indeed the greatest persecution by the Arabs towards the Jews was in Fez, Morocco, nothing was worse than the slaughter of 120,000 Jews in 1146 and before that In 1160 Maimonides in his Epistle concerning apostasy writes his fellow Jews: "Now we are asked to render the active homage to heathenism but only to recite an empty formula which the Moslems themselves knew we utter insincerely in order to circumvent the bigot ... indeed, any Jew who, after uttering the Muslim formula, wishes to observe the whole 613 precepts in the privacy of his home, may do so without hindrance. Nevertheless, if, even under circumstances, a Jew surrenders his life for the sanctification of the name of God before men, he has done nobly and his reward is great before the Lord. But if a man asked me, "shall I be slain or utter the formula of Islam?" I answer, "utter the formula and live ... "". In 1391 a wave of Jewish refugees expelled from Spain brought new life to the community, as did new arrivals from Spain and Portugal in 1492 and 1497. From 1438, the Jews of Fez were forced to live in special quarters called mellahs, a name derived from the Arabic word for salt because the Jews in Morocco were forced to carry out the job of salting the heads of executed prisoners prior to their public display. Chouraqui sums it up when he wrote: "such restriction and humiliation as to exceed anything in Europe". Charles de Foucauld in 1883 who was not generally sympathetic to Jews writes of the Jews: "They are the most unfortunate of men, every Jew belongs body and soul to his seigneur, the sid[Arab master]". Similarly, in 1465, Arab mobs in Fez slaughtered thousands of Jews, leaving only 11 alive, after a Jewish deputy vizier treated a Muslim woman in "an offensive manner." The killings touched off a wave of similar massacres throughout Morocco.

THE PERSECUTION OF JEWS IN MOROCCO AFTER 1948

In June 1948, bloody riots in Oujda and Djerada killed 44 Jews and wounded scores more. That same year, an unofficial economic boycott was instigated against Moroccan Jews.

In 1956, Morocco declared its independence, and Jewish emigration to Israel was suspended. In 1963, emigration resumed, allowing more than 100,000 Moroccan Jews to reach Israel. In 1965, Moroccan writer Said Ghallab described the attitude of his fellow Muslims toward their Jewish neighbors: The worst insult that a Moroccan could possibly offer was to treat someone as a Jew....My childhood friends have remained anti-Jewish. They hide their virulent anti-Semitism by contending that the State of Israel was the creature of Western imperialism....A whole Hitlerite myth is being cultivated among the populace. The massacres of the Jews by Hitler are exalted ecstatically. It is even credited that Hitler is not dead, but alive and well, and his arrival is awaited to deliver the Arabs from Israel. (Said Ghallab, "Les Juifs sont en enfer," in Les Temps Modernes, (April 1965), pp. 2247-2251. ).

THE PERSECUTION OF JEWS IN TUNISIA PRIOR TO 1948

The first documented evidence of Jews in this area dates back to 200 A.D and demonstrates the existence of a community in Latin Carthage under Roman rule. Latin Carthage contained a significant Jewish presence, and
several sages mentioned in the Talmud lived in this area from the 2nd to the 4th centuries. During the Byzantine period, the condition of the community took a turn for the worse. An edict issued by Justinian in 535 excluded Jews from public office, prohibited Jewish practice, and resulted in the transformation of synagogues into churches. Many fled to the Berber communities in the mountains and in the desert.

After the Arab conquest of Tunisia in the 7th century, Jews lived under satisfactory conditions, despite discriminatory measures such as a poll tax. From 7th century Arab conquest down through the Almahdiyeen
atrocities, Tunisia fared little better than its neighbors. The complete expulsion of Jews from Kairouan near Tunis occurred after years of hardship, in the 13th century when Kairouan was anointed as a holy city of Islam. ~ In the 16th century, the "hated and despised" Jews of Tunis were periodically attacked by violence and they were subjected to "vehement anti-Jewish policy" during the various political struggles of the period. In 1869 Muslims butchered many Jews in the defenseless ghetto.

Conditions worsened during the Spanish invasions of 1535-1574, resulting in the flight of Jews from the coastal areas. The situation of the community improved once more under Ottoman rule. During this period, the community also split due to strong cultural differences between the Touransa (native Tunisians) and the Grana (those adhering to Spanish or Italian customs). Improvements in the condition of the community occurred during the reign of Ahmed Bey, which began in 1837. He and his successors implemented liberal legislation, and a large number of Jews rose to positions of political power during this reign. Under French rule, Jews were gradually emancipated. However, beginning in November 1940, when the country was ruled by the Vichy authorities, Jews were subject to anti-Semitic laws. From November 1942 until May 1943, the country was occupied by German forces. During that time, the condition of the Jews deteriorated further, and many were deported to labor camps and had their property seized. Jews suffered once more in 1956, when the country achieved independence. The rabbinical tribunal was abolished in 1957, and a year later, Jewish community councils were dissolved. In addition, the Jewish quarter of Tunis was destroyed by the government. Anti-Jewish rioting followed the outbreak of the Six-Day War; Muslims burned down the Great Synagogue of Tunis. While the community was compensated for the damage, these events increased the steady stream of emigration.

THE PERSECUTION OF JEWS IN LIBYA PRIOR TO 1948

The Jewish community of Libya traces its origin back to the 3rd century B.C Under Roman rule, where Jews prospered.

In 73 A.D, a zealot from Israel, Jonathan the Weaver, incited the poor of the community in Cyrene to revolt. The Romans reacted with swift vengeance, murdering him and his followers and executing other wealthy Jews in the community. This revolt foreshadowed that of 115 A.D, which broke out not only in Cyrene, but in Egypt and Cyprus as well. In 1785, where Ali Burzi Pasha murdered hundreds of Jews. With the Italian occupation of Libya in 1911, the situation remained good and the Jews made great strides in education. At that time, there were about 21,000 Jews in the country, the majority in Tripoli. In the late 1930s, Fascist anti-Jewish laws were gradually enforced, and Jews were subject to terrible repression. Still, by 1941, the Jews accounted for a quarter of the population of Tripoli and maintained 44 synagogues. In 1942 the Germans occupied the Jewish quarter of Benghazi, plundered shops, and deported more than 2,000 Jews across the desert, where more than one-fifth
of them perished. Many Jews from Tripoli were also sent to forced labor camps. Conditions did not greatly improve following the liberation. During the British occupation, there was a series of pogroms, the worst of which, in 1945, resulted in the deaths of more than 100 Jews in Tripoli and other towns and the destruction of five synagogues. The establishment of the State of Israel, led many Jews to leave the country. A savage pogrom occurred in Tripoli on November 5, 1945 where more than 140 Jews were massacred and almost every synagogue looted. (Howard Sachar, A History of Israel). In June 1948, rioters murdered another 12 Jews and destroyed 280 Jewish homes. Thousands of Jews fled the country after Libya was granted independence and membership in the Arab League in 1951. (Norman Stillman, The Jews of Arab Lands in Modern Times). After the Six-Day War, the Jewish population of 7,000 was again subjected to pogroms in which 18 were killed, and many more injured, sparking a near-total exodus that left fewer than 100 Jews in Libya. When Col. Qaddafi came to power in 1969, all Jewish property was confiscated and all debts to Jews cancelled. Today, no Jews are believed to live in Libya. Although emigration was illegal, more than 3,000 Jews succeeded to leave to Israel. When the British legalized emigration in 1949, more than 30,000 Jews fled Libya. At the time of Colonel Qaddafi's coup in 1969, some 500 Jews remained in Libya. Qaddafi subsequently confiscated all Jewish property and cancelled all debts owed to Jews. By 1974 there were no more than 20 Jews, and it is believed that the Jewish presence has passed out of existence.


[Edited by - colorfl1 on 07-17-2006 9:01 PM]
TemujinKnick
Posts: 20771
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Member: #1022

7/17/2006  8:56 PM
Posted by PresIke:
Posted by McK1:
The Holocaust wasnt just terrible beacause of the extermination of Jews and other minorities (gays, gypsies etc.), it was terrible because of the way it happened. Nothing like that has ever occured throughout the length and breadth of human history, and please God it never will again. So dont talk to me about victims.

I've read through this thread comment-less because I've been learning through-out it but I had to speak when I read this.

there are no words to describe what occurred during the Holocost. I recall reading Night by Elie Wiesel and feeling my stomach twist as I read gory detail after detail. However, have you ever read any recount of the Trans-Atlantic slave trade? The atrocities committed by Europe on mainland Africa, the body count that boiled the Atlantic, and the amount of humans slaughtered both from Africa and from North and South America once posts were established dwarfs the count loss during Hitlers reign.

Not only wholes of peoples but whole histories and heritages totally erased. The advancements of society didn't occur in Europe during the Middle Ages, it was in the Americas and Africa. "Colonizers" came and learned then returned and destroyed virtually all of that. The people of Africa were hit harder than any other race of people on the PLANET. The effects of the slave trade are still lingering.

Once posts were established, the pyscho-freaks of that day devised a system of categorically dividing black people amongst themselves based on the color of their skin.

thats where limricks such as

if you're white you're alright
if you're yellow you're mellow
if you're brown stick around
if you're black stay back

originate of.

to this day in the eyes of many these color walls within the race exist. The Black race has been targetted and persecuted like no other. All links to who we were as a people - which in the remnants of historical data left show we were indeed World Kings and Queens and Chief Advancers of Science Thought Art Spirituality and Civilization are for the most part unavailable to those living in this day of America.

as recently as a little over a century ago - when there is no denying the bits uncovered - scientific thought decided that the people of Africa were descended from monkeys and made the Piltdown man as "proof" of this. "Scientists" actually tried to forge a monkey and humans skull and pass it off as a history of a people. What greater degredation is that?

I don't mean to veer the discussion off track so I'll end here.

[Edited by - McK1 on 07-17-2006 08:33 AM]

[Edited by - McK1 on 07-17-2006 08:39 AM]

Nice post, McK1. I don't consider your point off topic because it provides perspective. Part of the difficulty in resolving the Israel-Arab/Palestinian/Muslim conflict, in my view, is that there are a good number of those within each group that feel like they are the worse victim through history, and that the group on the other side of the conflict is one of the worst offending victimizers. To top it off each of them is also VERY proud and resilient.

Somehow this has to be addressed, but I highly doubt extended use of violence will end up being the solution.

Why should they have had a say in it? They were subjects of the defeated Ottoman Empire. The Ottomans were a Western (Muslim) empire which had terms of surrender imposed on it after a World War just as the Germans and the Japanese later. You can think that the right thing to do in such situations is to open up a giant dialogue which grants the defeated party a greater voice in what happens to their land, but you cannot require that. All historical evidence would suggest that kind of policy would be a massive mistake. Seeing how many massive mistakes have been made in the region though, it is reasonable that you could hold such a view.
colorfl1
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7/17/2006  9:19 PM
In the 20th Centruy, Palestinian leadership had a strong hand in terrorizing and expelling Jews throughout the Arab world, leading to 900,000 Jewish refugees fleeing the region. In 1941, for example, Hajj Amin al-Husayni, the Mufti of Jerusalem went to Berlin as a guest of the Nazi regime. He drafted a political declaration asking Germany and Italy to “recognize the rights of Palestine and other Arab countries (to) resolve the problem of the Jewish elements in Palestine and the other Arab countries in the same was as the probelm was resolved in the Axis countries: i.e., through genocide.

In a speech at a rally in Berlin Nov. 2, 1943, al-Husayni voiced his hope for a "final solution" to the Jewish presence in the Middle East. Not long after, anti-Jewish riots erupted throughout the Arab world. Jewish citizens were assaulted, tortured, and murdered. In a few Arab countries, Jews were outright expelled. Throughout the region, Jewish property was confiscated and nationalized, forcing Jews to flee from their homes of thousands of years.

We do not hear about the Jewish refugee problem today, because Israel absorbed about 600,000 of these 900,000 refugees. In contrast, Arab states did not absorb the Arab refugees from the Arab war against Israel in 1948. Instead, they built squalid refugee camps in the West Bank and Gaza at the time controlled by Jordan and Egypt and dumped innocent Arabs in them Palestinians doomed to become political pawns. Countries such as Lebanon and Syria continued funding assaults against Israel instead of funding basic medical and educational care for the Palestinian refugee families.

In 1967, Israel inherited the Palestinian refugee problem, through a defensive war. When Israel tried to build housing for the refugees in Gaza, Arab states led votes against it in UN resolutions, because absorption would change the status of the refugees. Israel went on to give more money to the Palestinian refugees than all but three of the Arab states combined, prior to transferring responsibility of the territories to the Palestinian Authority in the mid-1990s. Israel built hospitals and educational institutions for Palestinians in the territories. Israel trained the Palestinian police force. And yet the 22 Arab states dominate both the land and the wealth of the region.
PresIke
Posts: 27671
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Joined: 7/26/2001
Member: #33
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7/17/2006  10:00 PM
Posted by TemujinKnick:
Posted by PresIke:
Posted by McK1:
The Holocaust wasnt just terrible beacause of the extermination of Jews and other minorities (gays, gypsies etc.), it was terrible because of the way it happened. Nothing like that has ever occured throughout the length and breadth of human history, and please God it never will again. So dont talk to me about victims.

I've read through this thread comment-less because I've been learning through-out it but I had to speak when I read this.

there are no words to describe what occurred during the Holocost. I recall reading Night by Elie Wiesel and feeling my stomach twist as I read gory detail after detail. However, have you ever read any recount of the Trans-Atlantic slave trade? The atrocities committed by Europe on mainland Africa, the body count that boiled the Atlantic, and the amount of humans slaughtered both from Africa and from North and South America once posts were established dwarfs the count loss during Hitlers reign.

Not only wholes of peoples but whole histories and heritages totally erased. The advancements of society didn't occur in Europe during the Middle Ages, it was in the Americas and Africa. "Colonizers" came and learned then returned and destroyed virtually all of that. The people of Africa were hit harder than any other race of people on the PLANET. The effects of the slave trade are still lingering.

Once posts were established, the pyscho-freaks of that day devised a system of categorically dividing black people amongst themselves based on the color of their skin.

thats where limricks such as

if you're white you're alright
if you're yellow you're mellow
if you're brown stick around
if you're black stay back

originate of.

to this day in the eyes of many these color walls within the race exist. The Black race has been targetted and persecuted like no other. All links to who we were as a people - which in the remnants of historical data left show we were indeed World Kings and Queens and Chief Advancers of Science Thought Art Spirituality and Civilization are for the most part unavailable to those living in this day of America.

as recently as a little over a century ago - when there is no denying the bits uncovered - scientific thought decided that the people of Africa were descended from monkeys and made the Piltdown man as "proof" of this. "Scientists" actually tried to forge a monkey and humans skull and pass it off as a history of a people. What greater degredation is that?

I don't mean to veer the discussion off track so I'll end here.

[Edited by - McK1 on 07-17-2006 08:33 AM]

[Edited by - McK1 on 07-17-2006 08:39 AM]

Nice post, McK1. I don't consider your point off topic because it provides perspective. Part of the difficulty in resolving the Israel-Arab/Palestinian/Muslim conflict, in my view, is that there are a good number of those within each group that feel like they are the worse victim through history, and that the group on the other side of the conflict is one of the worst offending victimizers. To top it off each of them is also VERY proud and resilient.

Somehow this has to be addressed, but I highly doubt extended use of violence will end up being the solution.

Why should they have had a say in it? They were subjects of the defeated Ottoman Empire. The Ottomans were a Western (Muslim) empire which had terms of surrender imposed on it after a World War just as the Germans and the Japanese later. You can think that the right thing to do in such situations is to open up a giant dialogue which grants the defeated party a greater voice in what happens to their land, but you cannot require that. All historical evidence would suggest that kind of policy would be a massive mistake. Seeing how many massive mistakes have been made in the region though, it is reasonable that you could hold such a view.

Being subjects of an Empire and being the actual Empire are two completely different things, my friend. You appear to be suggesting that the Palestinians (who were generally peasants) were part of the leadership of the Ottoman Empire, which is a complete falsehood. They merely lived under the authority of the Ottomans (as did Jews who lived -- separately -- mostly in peace under the Ottoman Empire, btw)

Anyway, that's besides the point. Really, you appear to be arguing that because the Allied Powers in WW II won, they had a right to install any outside group in any of the countries that lost as they saw fit, indefinitely/permanently, which is basically what the state of Israel is. That is most definitely an example of "justified colonialism" for lack of a better term. No matter how terribly Jews have been treated throughout history (something that can also not be denied) that does not justify putting Eastern European Jewish exiles (who no one can deny is and was the majority of those that immigrate/d to Israel) in control of a land and a people who were already living there, and then saying that this other group has no say because the Empire they did not choose to be in charge lost a war they probably had little concern over.

That hardly sounds like a fair shake to me.



[Edited by - PresIke on 07-17-2006 10:01 PM]

[Edited by - PresIke on 07-17-2006 10:02 PM]
Forum Po Po and #33 for a reason...
colorfl1
Posts: 20781
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 8/6/2004
Member: #731
Canada
7/17/2006  10:36 PM
Posted by PresIke:

[That hardly sounds like a fair shake to me.

What about the fact that Jordon is 70% Palastinian, and Jordon is more than double the size of Israel... these people have a rightful homeland... it is called Jordon.
Let the Jews have their little country and be allowed to live just one century in peace...

When the West Bank and Gaza was controlled by Jordan and Egypt, the Arab Nations conspired to keep these people oppressed and without a homeland in order to serve their own agendas...
O.T. War in the middle East...

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