Posted by Bonn1997:

. I also disagree strongly with point 2 that the players didn't improve. I feel that every young player got significantly better and I've posted about that before. To me, its obvious

Channing got worse. The rest of the players were good from the beginning. Larry was just too in love with the veterans to play them.

That's factually incorrect.

These dudes are getting their checks signed by a guy who wants to get off the hook for the $40mil he owes Brown, do you think just maybe they have been coaxed into being so candid in the media? It's no shock to me that these interviews are all available online on MSG Network's website. These guys are all like key witnesses for Dolan's case against Brown. I understand that it's gonna be arbitrated by Stern and that this isn't the trial of the century (trust me, I understand that). However, I think Dolan intends to rely on these types of comments when pleading his case to Stern.

The only thing that's I'm still lost about is Larry's motive. What the hell was he trying to do? Was he really trying to steal Isiah's job? Did he think sabotaging the team was the route to go? Larry seems like a somewhat intelligent dude, and that doesn't seem like even a remotely intelligent plan. Dolan is in love with Isiah and I'm sure it was no secret to Brown. I have a hard time believing that Brown was playing politics and trying to steal Isiah's role. So why exactly did LB bomb out for?

But it's over now so let's move on and enjoy the Summer League. I hope the positive vibes last all year. There's no reason this team won't make the playoffs and compete now. Did you hear these guys? They sound like they are ready to go to war for Isiah. This team is in the playoffs and competitive or it's a failure. People thought this was a playoff team last summer. This team has to make the playoffs now.

[Edited by - eViL on 07-06-2006 2:34 PM]

Posted by Bippity10:

Posted by newyorknewyork:

It comes down to what Larry Browns agenda was. Was it to basically take the season off to teach pure fundamentals. Or was it to undermine Isiah and get what he wants.

Even if it was to teach. The only person who understood what he was doing was Larry Brown. So if the players feel that the coach is tanking the season in order to get rid of them anyway how do you think they are going to respond?? Do you think they are going to trust him in his coaching? When they are *thinking* he is purposly putting them in a position to fail so he could get rid of them. Yes he has a track record of turning teams into winners. But do you think players don't know of his track record of trading players away. If it was clear to everyone that the season was stricly about learning fundamentals, and expirementing, and putting players in situations so they could learn from it. Then there would have been way less drama. But it wasn't clear.

Even if it was to teach. Larry Brown did a poor job of making everyone understand that. Which should have been an understanding at the door when Isiah was hiring Brown. That Brown was going to use last season to teach while record shouldn't matter. Which should have then been relayed to the players. So that none of this would come as a suprise to the players.

Okay that's fine. So that of course means that all our players are going to come into camp in shape and play ahrd all year long. The negative influence is gone. The guy that wanted them gone all along is now gone. Fired!! Now they have a coach that wanted them at all costs. So now that we got rid of Larry that means all our players are ready to go. No season is perfect, especially after last year, but I'm assuming that we will have few blips in terms of effort and commitement to the team concept and respect for the coach.

We have all reached the conclusion that our reason for the 23 wins and utter failure was LB. Now he's gone. We may not be good this year. But in terms of effort and lack of complaints we will be a model franchise. Am I wrong here?

Bip.. this is great. Exactly what I have been trying to say.

earl, Holfresh, Ki, ooha, RV, everyone and anyone else from the "this was all Larry's fault" camp can all agree on some of those simple things right?

Curry, JJ and Mo Taylor will all show up to camp in great, NBA basketball shape right?
That Curry and Frye will put a body on a man everytime a shot goes up because thats what good rebounders do right?
That Nate will hustle down court after he hits a shot so he doesnt get beat in transition showing off for the crowd right?
That Nate will pressure the ball because thats what a 5'9 guard should do right?
That Francis will gladly share minutes because its the right thing to do right? Work and earn his floor time.. right?
That a FranBury backcourt will be focused on defense and making the whole team better right?

I mean, now that all the distractions and Larry negativity are gone I'm looking forward to all these things happening. Ive always thought this roster had a lot of talent. Now that nothing is holding them back it should be really interesting to see them take over.

Hoops is fun right Earl?

Posted by fishmike:


Okay that's fine. So that of course means that all our players are going to come into camp in shape and play ahrd all year long. The negative influence is gone. The guy that wanted them gone all along is now gone. Fired!! Now they have a coach that wanted them at all costs. So now that we got rid of Larry that means all our players are ready to go. No season is perfect, especially after last year, but I'm assuming that we will have few blips in terms of effort and commitement to the team concept and respect for the coach.

We have all reached the conclusion that our reason for the 23 wins and utter failure was LB. Now he's gone. We may not be good this year. But in terms of effort and lack of complaints we will be a model franchise. Am I wrong here?

Bip.. this is great. Exactly what I have been trying to say.

earl, Holfresh, Ki, ooha, RV, everyone and anyone else from the "this was all Larry's fault" camp can all agree on some of those simple things right?

Curry, JJ and Mo Taylor will all show up to camp in great, NBA basketball shape right?
That Curry and Frye will put a body on a man everytime a shot goes up because thats what good rebounders do right?
That Nate will hustle down court after he hits a shot so he doesnt get beat in transition showing off for the crowd right?
That Nate will pressure the ball because thats what a 5'9 guard should do right?
That Francis will gladly share minutes because its the right thing to do right? Work and earn his floor time.. right?
That a FranBury backcourt will be focused on defense and making the whole team better right?

I mean, now that all the distractions and Larry negativity are gone I'm looking forward to all these things happening. Ive always thought this roster had a lot of talent. Now that nothing is holding them back it should be really interesting to see them take over.

Hoops is fun right Earl?
[/quote]

So are you GENUINELY hoping for these things to happen or are you simply looking at the team to fail in these aspects? Cuz I happen to think that these players will do what they do best and Isiah will determine how they can help the team and in this way they'll be a GOOD TEAM. Not just in the individual ways that you pointed out. Cuz a REAL coach looks at his team and puts his players in positions to succeed and not just focus on what they don't do well. When you see this team next year and it actually plays like a team will you shut up then or will you just look for any little fault to pick at?

I think that the media and the league in general is wrong about this team. Not that its some great team now that LB is gone, but they will set a foundation this year and build on that as we go along. This is all we can ask for with such a young team. Sure we have a few vets but the key players are all young and still learning, so I can't look for perfection. But the effort will be there. The team work will be there and I think there will be more wins.

Posted by TMS:

Posted by Bonn1997:

Posted by SlimPack:

Posted by BlueSeats:

This is why Brown wanted one or two of his former players on the team, so they could tell guys "he was the same way with us, and we all hated him, but we rode it out and then things clicked and we went far together." Instead our leaders are uncrackable nuts, hellbent on playing their way, and giving the coach ultimatums thru the media after just 7 games.

Reggie Miller was said to have hated Brown, but as a TV analyst he called him the best coach in the game, bar none. And he probably "liked" Isiah better.

I'm glad our guys like our new coach more, and I'm glad our new coach likes these guys more. But I'd feel a lot better about the whole thing if I had more faith in the leadership of this team -- but our leaders problems have revealed themselves under a multitude of coaching styles. I don't believe in finding that one needle in the haystack of coaches. Isiah makes the 5th in 2.5 years. It's not good enough he be better than Brown (who he signed). He has to make this roster (who he signed) make sense.

Are you sure larry coached the same way this season as he has in the past? becuase I dont think he did.

No, and that's why I laugh when people bask in the glory of Larry's past as if it mattered. Why don't we make Magic and Isiah be our starting back court? They had pretty good pasts too! People get old and bad at what they do and the past doesn't matter

the past doesn't matter? says who? should we bring in a career loser to coach this team in the hopes that he'll suddenly become a good coach? of course the past matters... past track record is really the only way you can project future performance... otherwise we wouldn't have had people whining about Isiah's past disastrous track record as an executive before he got here... it works both ways.

Past doesn't matter when you're now old, crazy, and incompetent

Posted by nixluva:
So are you GENUINELY hoping for these things to happen or are you simply looking at the team to fail in these aspects? Cuz I happen to think that these players will do what they do best and Isiah will determine how they can help the team and in this way they'll be a GOOD TEAM. Not just in the individual ways that you pointed out. Cuz a REAL coach looks at his team and puts his players in positions to succeed and not just focus on what they don't do well. When you see this team next year and it actually plays like a team will you shut up then or will you just look for any little fault to pick at?

I think that the media and the league in general is wrong about this team. Not that its some great team now that LB is gone, but they will set a foundation this year and build on that as we go along. This is all we can ask for with such a young team. Sure we have a few vets but the key players are all young and still learning, so I can't look for perfection. But the effort will be there. The team work will be there and I think there will be more wins.

I never root for failure, and never hope my team loses. I would love for these things to happen, but as I have said before, I'm a what you see is what you get kind of guy, and namely our veterans have shown to be bad, and our GM to follow a decent move with 4 bad ones.

If I want Isiah to be fired, its because I think it will help the Knicks. Thats all I care about, is getting this team back

Posted by Killa4luv:

Posted by codeunknown:

Defined roles are critical for a team looking to maximize wins. LB tried to take a year of from winning and thus he sacrificed defined roles - to teach players the nuances of basketball. The mechanism is simple. When you put players in 42 different line-ups, play them haphazardly at different positions, and play them either in garbage time or crunch time at the flip of a dime, you are consistently putting them in different, difficult situations - you make them get used to adversity. You expose them to different team dynamics and different levels of opposition. You take away the luxury of monotony for now. When they earn the luxury in the furture, they will be much better prepared. The ebb and flow of a basketball won't phase them - the last seconds of a game won't scare them - because the ability to adapt has been beaten into them.

Some people either can't stomach that and deem LB's intentions vile. Others feel like LB's method in NY wasn't going to work long-term and point to no observable tangible improvement during the season, either 1) record-wise or 2) with the players. While wins are really the only empirical, objective measurement of improvement, coaching to win has 90% to do with that and, as a result, isn't a fair standard with to measure improvement. I also disagree strongly with point 2 that the players didn't improve. I feel that every young player got significantly better and I've posted about that before. To me, its obvious and, as a result, I feel belaboring this point is unnecessary.

For those reasons, I feel like the firing of Brown may have been mistake long-term. Again, its hard to say for sure without objective measures of improvement. I'll just say it would have been interesting this year to have seen LB coach to win. To me, it would have been worth the wait.

Killa, I'm not sure exactly what your point is regarding these newly defined roles. We'll be better this year for sure. Are you suggesting we'll be better 3 years down the line? Will our players be coachable - will they know the nuances of NBA basketball and use that knowledge to limit errors? - will they be clutch performers? Are you interested in if they'll be better long-run or are you more interested in short-term improvement? I think that your point about Isiah not being a lax coach is well-taken. But, until you assess whether last year's experiment was necessary and look at whether our players will benefit most from defined roles in the long-term, your point is incomplete.

why would Dolan and Zeke be so pissed at him? They wanted him here, and knew they needed him, if he said this was his plan, and this is what he was doing, from the beginning, they wouldn't have fired him. Was he using this same style on Zeke and Dolan too?
LB: Waive 6 players or I'm leaving
Zeke: WHAT?!?! You're crazy!!!
LB: Nah, I'm joking. Just get rid of Marbury for me.

I agree with some of your post. But, the above I found completely flawed. The reason why Brown was fired doesn't have to be because he decided to vindictively tank the season. It seems like you are implying that his firing validates his ill intentions - but as we all know by now, both sides had disparate agendas. Thus, all that Larry Brown's departure validates is a case of irreconilable differences. Its flawed to begin with the premise that management fired Brown for the right reasons - here are a couple of scenarios.

newyork brought up a communication gap between LB and management - something explicitly observable in every aspect of this process and highlighted especially by the "40 days of silence." And I agree with his assessment that the fault here is evenly distributed between both parties. Management quite clearly turned a deaf ear to Brown. Its entirely possible that management failed to acknowledge or understand Brown's plan. Lb's incredible inability to effectively communicate the hard-to-conceive benefits of his erratic coaching is just as easy to believe. Management, stunned by players starting in their hometown among other inexplicable coaching decisions, may not have been willing to listen to a justification for acts that reeked of incoherence. Isiah and Dolan, irate with Brown's inconsistent coaching and media rants, were clearly convinced of LB's refusal to comply with company policy and believed that further communication was futile. The demand for players to be traded was further aggravating and, perhaps to Dolan, proof of the failure of LB's indecipherable methods to reach his players. Frustration coupled with LB's intractability led to his firing. Thus, even though LB is not guilty of treason, management remains convinced of this notion.

To me, its even more probable that management realized that LB was genuinely trying to test players - that he had good intentions. Management simply disagreed with the methodology. Its obvious that management has always cared about winning now and, of course, selling tickets. The trade for Stephon Marbury, the signing of Jerome James and the trade for Mo Taylor are the remnants of a history of trying to win now. Firing 4 coaches in 3 seasons is part of an embarassing track record of trying to win now and failing. The decision to give Isiah a 1yr ultimatum further supports the conern for immediate results. A philosophy gap between winning now and sacrificing a season to teach and challenge players is astronomical. It isn't necessary that LB was evil or even incompetent. Instead, it seems more plausible to me that Dolan has been primarily concerned with immediate profits and win totals - that alone is reason to fire Brown who traditionally takes years to build an elite team. Add to that a stubborn Brown who the players don't support and confidence levels sink in Brown's ability to coach the team successfully next year. The risk of sacrificing the short-term for an uncertain future has never been acceptable to Dolan. That would be rebuilding. Conclusion - fire Brown.

The above situations outline why Brown's firing could be a mistake. I agree that Brown isn't the sole protector of championship basketball - that by no means are all avenues closed now. But, its not logical to flatly discount Brown's quirky methods simply because he was fired by James Dolan, the biggest impecile in sports ownership.

I don't care how many games we win this year. This year can be a success if they win 30 games and play hard EVERY NIGHT. For me that will be significant progress.

Disclaimer for the children among us: I hope this happens. I really hope they play hard because that means the Knicks win. And if the Knicks win, I win.

Posted by Bippity10:

I don't care how many games we win this year. This year can be a success if they win 30 games and play hard EVERY NIGHT. For me that will be significant progress.

Disclaimer for the children among us: I hope this happens. I really hope they play hard because that means the Knicks win. And if the Knicks win, I win.

Bip, would you stop trying to reason and be a little less rational. You trying to use logic must mean you're an LB Lover.

Anyway, I hope they win, too. I'd rather have a decent team with some promise and Isiah than a crappy team without Isiah.

Posted by codeunknown:

Posted by Killa4luv:

Posted by codeunknown:

Defined roles are critical for a team looking to maximize wins. LB tried to take a year of from winning and thus he sacrificed defined roles - to teach players the nuances of basketball. The mechanism is simple. When you put players in 42 different line-ups, play them haphazardly at different positions, and play them either in garbage time or crunch time at the flip of a dime, you are consistently putting them in different, difficult situations - you make them get used to adversity. You expose them to different team dynamics and different levels of opposition. You take away the luxury of monotony for now. When they earn the luxury in the furture, they will be much better prepared. The ebb and flow of a basketball won't phase them - the last seconds of a game won't scare them - because the ability to adapt has been beaten into them.

Some people either can't stomach that and deem LB's intentions vile. Others feel like LB's method in NY wasn't going to work long-term and point to no observable tangible improvement during the season, either 1) record-wise or 2) with the players. While wins are really the only empirical, objective measurement of improvement, coaching to win has 90% to do with that and, as a result, isn't a fair standard with to measure improvement. I also disagree strongly with point 2 that the players didn't improve. I feel that every young player got significantly better and I've posted about that before. To me, its obvious and, as a result, I feel belaboring this point is unnecessary.

For those reasons, I feel like the firing of Brown may have been mistake long-term. Again, its hard to say for sure without objective measures of improvement. I'll just say it would have been interesting this year to have seen LB coach to win. To me, it would have been worth the wait.

Killa, I'm not sure exactly what your point is regarding these newly defined roles. We'll be better this year for sure. Are you suggesting we'll be better 3 years down the line? Will our players be coachable - will they know the nuances of NBA basketball and use that knowledge to limit errors? - will they be clutch performers? Are you interested in if they'll be better long-run or are you more interested in short-term improvement? I think that your point about Isiah not being a lax coach is well-taken. But, until you assess whether last year's experiment was necessary and look at whether our players will benefit most from defined roles in the long-term, your point is incomplete.

why would Dolan and Zeke be so pissed at him? They wanted him here, and knew they needed him, if he said this was his plan, and this is what he was doing, from the beginning, they wouldn't have fired him. Was he using this same style on Zeke and Dolan too?
LB: Waive 6 players or I'm leaving
Zeke: WHAT?!?! You're crazy!!!
LB: Nah, I'm joking. Just get rid of Marbury for me.

I agree with some of your post. But, the above I found completely flawed. The reason why Brown was fired doesn't have to be because he decided to vindictively tank the season. It seems like you are implying that his firing validates his ill intentions - but as we all know by now, both sides had disparate agendas. Thus, all that Larry Brown's departure validates is a case of irreconilable differences. Its flawed to begin with the premise that management fired Brown for the right reasons - here are a couple of scenarios.

newyork brought up a communication gap between LB and management - something explicitly observable in every aspect of this process and highlighted especially by the "40 days of silence." And I agree with his assessment that the fault here is evenly distributed between both parties. Management quite clearly turned a deaf ear to Brown. Its entirely possible that management failed to acknowledge or understand Brown's plan. Lb's incredible inability to effectively communicate the hard-to-conceive benefits of his erratic coaching is just as easy to believe. Management, stunned by players starting in their hometown among other inexplicable coaching decisions, may not have been willing to listen to a justification for acts that reeked of incoherence. Isiah and Dolan, irate with Brown's inconsistent coaching and media rants, were clearly convinced of LB's refusal to comply with company policy and believed that further communication was futile. The demand for players to be traded was further aggravating and, perhaps to Dolan, proof of the failure of LB's indecipherable methods to reach his players. Frustration coupled with LB's intractability led to his firing. Thus, even though LB is not guilty of treason, management remains convinced of this notion.

To me, its even more probable that management realized that LB was genuinely trying to test players - that he had good intentions. Management simply disagreed with the methodology. Its obvious that management has always cared about winning now and, of course, selling tickets. The trade for Stephon Marbury, the signing of Jerome James and the trade for Mo Taylor are the remnants of a history of trying to win now. Firing 4 coaches in 3 seasons is part of an embarassing track record of trying to win now and failing. The decision to give Isiah a 1yr ultimatum further supports the conern for immediate results. A philosophy gap between winning now and sacrificing a season to teach and challenge players is astronomical. It isn't necessary that LB was evil or even incompetent. Instead, it seems more plausible to me that Dolan has been primarily concerned with immediate profits and win totals - that alone is reason to fire Brown who traditionally takes years to build an elite team. Add to that a stubborn Brown who the players don't support and confidence levels sink in Brown's ability to coach the team successfully next year. The risk of sacrificing the short-term for an uncertain future has never been acceptable to Dolan. That would be rebuilding. Conclusion - fire Brown.

The above situations outline why Brown's firing could be a mistake. I agree that Brown isn't the sole protector of championship basketball - that by no means are all avenues closed now. But, its not logical to flatly discount Brown's quirky methods simply because he was fired by James Dolan, the biggest impecile in sports ownership.

good god, logic and more logic followed by well thought out thinking. Dude, slow down or you may start a trend.

Hold UP

>>earl, Holfresh, Ki, ooha, RV, everyone and anyone else from the "this was all Larry's fault" camp can all agree on some of those simple things right?


fish.mike - you are ome of the most respected writers here and KNOW I never placed last year solelt at Larry Brown's feet. They were ALL responsible,, right down to the guy who ushers you to your seat. The PA announcer with the over-amped style when nothing of significance was hapeneing on the floor.

No my brother. Even Isiah must be held accountable for last season. The point being, Forget the 23 wins, Larry did more damage than good. THAT is not a good thing.

>>Also, at the end of the season LB did request a 1-on-1 meeting with Dolan. Isiah wouldn't let it happen without him being there. So perhaps LB had been trying to communicate his plan but either no one was listening or no one wanted to listen.

And NO martin, in respnse to another ridiculous assumption regarding Dolan not taking a meeting without Isiah - he is a grown azz man who just happens to sign the checks, if he wanted to take a meeting with Larry how is Isiah goimg to cut the freakin' owner off at the pass?

If Dolan wanted to meet with Larry he would have. Dolan didn't WANT to go over Zeke and cut his President's authority off at the knees. Good for him.

Case closed.