Posted by Bippity10:

I don't care why Isiah hired LB. I know what LB's goals are and that is to win a title. That is going to take a long-term plan. Step number one find out which players can help you.

Holfresh: What is wrong with the roster?????????? The only thing I can conclude from your postings is that you are perfectly okay with a team of quitters. That there are actually situations where it's okay to quit and just blame someone else. That is the type of roster you want to build around. Let's just get the right coach and they will make us better. If that was the case we should have just hired Donald Duck when we fired Don chaney.

Since Larry used the season as a preseason and wins were not important because he had to evaluate the players...Being that the players "quit" on him and they will be shipped out...Does that mean next season will be another exibition until Larry figures out the new team and who to play when?

So if a coach says his job is to evaluate players does that mean it's okay for players to quit?

Everytime I step on the court I try to win regardless of what the coach's goals are. If the coach says he has a long-term plan to win a title and that this year he is evaluating the roster(which I've had coach's say before), guess what? I'm going to play my as-s off because number one, that's the only way I know how to play. Number 2, I want to be one of the one's that are there next year.

What your players did was say "oh god, coach is evaluating us instead of handing us things. I quit!"

And that's what you are building around, guys that quit when they are being evaluated.

Posted by Bippity10:

Any more legitimate reasons for a team to quit?

But honestly, oohah had a good point...If it's not about wins, how can you say these guys quitters..

Because it's about pride, and about building a tradition and culture of work ethic, competiveness and being a good teammate. The wins are just a byproduct. It's never about wins. Winning 20 games or winning 35 is no different. We are trying to build a culture of playing the game the "right way". That's why it keeps getting brought up. Once you do that, the wins will come.

But again it is moot. If you want to win, you need a roster full of guys that will play hard, no matter what!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! You have a group of guys that will only play hard if the coach says glowing things about them. And even then.........................Why do you want that? Why do you want a team that needs everything perfect for them, just to go out and give an honest effort on the court. Don't do it for coach brown, do it for yourself.

I have hated coaches with a passion before but I never once considered not playing hard. I don't know how to do that. It's physically impossible for me to go half asse. I would be embarrassed. Screw the coach. I would be ashamed to face my teammates and the fans. That's who it's about. The coach is just a tool that calls plays for me. It's about my TEAM, not him. It's about pride, not loving my coach and having him love me. I find it physically impossible not to try hard. I'm under the impression that it's not too difficult for you.

Hol has strong anti-larry viagra. There is no way to convert him back from the dark side.

Steph is Darth Vader.

Larry is Obi Won Kanobi.

Darth killed Obi Won, but His spirit (the force) won over evil in the long run.

If Steph can convert back to the force, then we can succeed. But if not, he must be destroyed.

In pre-season the wins don't matter, guys are being evaluated, yet most find a way to play hard. During the off-season nothing matters. There is no winning. But champions find a way to play hard. Losers find a way to sit back and do nothing. In a season in which you are trying to build towards a championship team the difference between 20 wins and 35 wins is negligible.

My first year as a coach the team I went to had averaged 4 wins per year for the previous 10 years. I knew I had to change things. The first thing I told the players was things would be different. I said that no positions were guaranteed. I said I didn't care about wins and losses and that all I cared about was getting better and learning to play the game. I had seniors on that team that could have considered it a slap in the face that I wasn't concerned about the amount of wins and losses because it was there final year. Some did.
And that makes me sad but, the rest stayed around, played their arses off. Cared only about playing as a team and won 10 games. A year later they had a state title. The seniors that missed the state title all came back displaying the pride concerning the atmosphere they started the previous year through their hard work and dedication. 8 years later I'm long gone and that team now has 5 state titles in 8 years.

Culture first, wins second. If a player can't handle building towards something special then have fun elsewhere. We don't hate you for it.

In pre-season the wins don't matter, guys are being evaluated, yet most find a way to play hard. During the off-season nothing matters. There is no winning. But champions find a way to play hard. Losers find a way to sit back and do nothing. In a season in which you are trying to build towards a championship team the difference between 20 wins and 35 wins is negligible.

My first year as a coach the team I went to had averaged 4 wins per year for the previous 10 years. I knew I had to change things. The first thing I told the players was things would be different. I said that no positions were guaranteed. I said I didn't care about wins and losses and that all I cared about was getting better and learning to play the game. I had seniors on that team that could have considered it a slap in the face that I wasn't concerned about the amount of wins and losses because it was there final year. Some did.
And that makes me sad but, the rest stayed around, played their arses off. Cared only about playing as a team and won 10 games. A year later they had a state title. The seniors that missed the state title all came back displaying the pride concerning the atmosphere they started the previous year through their hard work and dedication. 8 years later I'm long gone and that team now has 5 state titles in 8 years.

Culture first, wins second. If a player can't handle building towards something special then have fun elsewhere. We don't hate you for it.

I think the mistake you are making is that you are always comparing High School to the pros when they are totally different animals. I hope you make it all the way to the NBA. I think at that point you will see that you have to take a different approach with professional players than with high-school kids trying to grow a mustache. To think otherwise is naive. It is not about coddling. You will lose a pro team every time by jerking them around and treating them like garbage. This is the fastest it has ever happened to LB, but it has happened to him virtually everywhere he has been.

Once again, you guys and your names. You think this nonsense is about LB. It's not about LB. I said the same gosh dam-n things when Chaney and Lenny and Herb were here and all you guys wanted their heads thinking the next guy we brought in would make it better. It's not about the name, it's about the Knicks and creating an atmosphere where QUITTING IS NOT TOLERATED UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES. I don't care if LB pis-ses on Steph's head during a team huddle. I don't care if he pulls down Jamal's pants in front of thousands of people. Punch LB in the face and then go out on the court and play your asse off. Why is that too much to ask????????? Why is any fan not saying the same thing. Why are you supporting players that don't want to play hard.

Who is supporting the players? I have been saying the team is not that good for ages. I just don't excuse LB with talk about how this season is devoted to lessons and evaluation and is necessary to next year's success. If anything, those reasons are excuses for the players as well, basically designating this as a throwaway season.

oohah

example is charlotte. they hired bickerstaff to be gm AND coach. which means he knows what system he will implement and he knows what kind of players to bring in to fit his system. it's a good model to start a franchise with and will probably yield them more long term success than other expansion teams.

isiah's biggest mistake was not hiring a coach for his vision to build a team with back in 2004. he should've brought in a guy that agrees with him 100% and then go out and get players to fit that vision. establish a system first THEN bring in the players.

but isiah went and got the players (each with a questionable past) and thought he could throw a disciplinarian at them and they will all listen. well, that didn't work as evidenced by this year. so, in essence, we are back at square one. isiah and lb are now on the same page and the owner said they're not going anywhere. so lb is establishing his culture on the team, now the next step is to find players that FIT the culture. in fact, this was discussed when lb took the job. he said he wasn't going to come here unless he was allowed to coach the way he wanted and isiah said sure. so forget who was here when lb was hired, it's now about who they're going to get. the players that stay are the ones that fit with the "culture."

[Edited by - djsunyc on 04-07-2006 4:15 PM]

DJ I actually think Zeke tried to hire a coach that fit his vision. That's why he hired Lenny. Unfortunately Lenny's style apparently didn't match the players so they quit on him. Then we were forced to start all over. Kind of like this year.

Dido you have to start somewhere guy.

More insults? I'll let that one pass, but that will be the last one I do.

Any player that thought this year was about being a contender is "delusional". Too bad the coach is honest about it and hurts "men's" feelings. It's hard to come to grips with the truth but when you are in teh position that we were in you suck it up, pull up the bootstraps and play your asse off. You don't quit. Guess what? Because the players quit this year, next year we will have to do the same thing again. Regardless of who is coach. Yet again for the 7th time in 7 years we are starting over again.

I don't think anyone considered this team to be a contender for anything but playoff spot. But don't let that get in the way of your exaggerations. LB being honest would be a refreshing change. I don't recall you saying anything about effort when the Knicks started out 7-21. I don't recall you doing anything but praising LB's genius when the Knicks had their 6 game win streak, saying "look, it's all coming together just like I said!". I don't recall you or anyone else questioning their effort until the Knicks lost about 15 in a row after the 6 game streak.

The only thing consistent about your opinion this season is that everything LB does is good, no matter if the results are positive or negative. Now you're building in a an excuse for next season.

Highschool and college and pros are all different. But if you can't see the importance of hard work under all circumstances, or playing team ball under all circumstances I can't help you.

As I stated before, player's effort is merely the latest excuse you've made for LB. If you can't see the value of coaching to win and in a consistent manner, then I cannot help you.

From the day LB was brought here it has not been about "maximizing ther roster" and winning 35 games it has been about bringing in winners to change the direction of a pathetic franchise. The coach was first, now we will target the players.

Yeah, LB changed the direction allright. They went from going nowhere to going straight down the toilet. Spin it anyway you like, the season speaks for itself. Too bad the players now have no value to get the players LB must have in order to coax out a decent season.

but isiah went and got the players (each with a questionable past) and thought he could throw a disciplinarian at them and they will all listen. well, that didn't work as evidenced by this year. so, in essence, we are back at square one. isiah and lb are now on the same page and the owner said they're not going anywhere. so lb is establishing his culture on the team, now the next step is to find players that FIT the culture. in fact, this was discussed when lb took the job. he said he wasn't going to come here unless he was allowed to coach the way he wanted and isiah said sure. so forget who was here when lb was hired, it's now about who they're going to get. the players that stay are the ones that fit with the "culture."

I think you are giving Isiah way too much credit for thought process. His strategy has always been "Best Player Available" without regard for the fit. Now he did the same with the coach. How is that different from what you said? I don't think IT said "Let me go get a disciplinarian", I think he said: "Let me go get another star!" LB = STARPHUCK.

oohah

anyone remember Lenny saying MANY times last year that he's been pushing guys to defend harder but the message wasnt getting through? So Lenny was more subtle but he said things in the press as well. Then he went away. Same players. Same result. Hmm...

Same players? Not many of them.

Yes, Lenny said he wanted the team to play better defense, but he didn't do all the other BS that LB is doing. Lenny was 40-41, and that inlcuded a slew of injuries as bad as this year. Wilkens did a good job. LB is not doing a good job. At the end of this year he will have one more game than Wilkens as Knicks coach and about half the wins. And he did not have to take over in the middle of the season like Wilkens did. Wilkens had less talent.

Who cares about LB? Hell.. I looked like an ass for defending Chaney for a long time, but those guys were left overs from the JVG regime and they played hard. We just didnt have good players. Now we have all this "talent" and they dont want to come to work. They dont want to play hard. What do that want?

I don't give a rat's ass about LB, IT, or one single player on this team. I guess that is why I don't feel the need to blame everybody but LB. The players suck and they are a poor fit all around, agreed. Isiah has no plan than to stockpile talent at any cost, that's definitely true. But the players not coming to work everyday? The season was well over before that happened. But let's not talk about LB starting guys who should have been last off the bench, giving DNP's to guys the night after they have great games, calling for vets, getting them, then not playing them. No, that would be wrong.

oohah



[Edited by - oohah on 04-07-2006 4:45 PM]