Posted by oohah:

and we have players now that are nowhere near as soft as him.

Frye?

oohah

Posted by HARDCOREKNICKSFAN:

[ He has a "happy" look to him

that's hysterical

btw i loved kvh his first year in the league when jayson williams took him undr his wing. keith attacked the basket that year, he was like lee with an outside jumper. and he truly looked like he was gonna be a superstar. but his second year things started changing - the outside shots were coming more and more often and the forays to the hoop less frequent. soon after it seemed to go on a steady decline for him.

Posted by oohah:

I think KVH is just an easy target, because he doesn't act like he is from the street. Why should he? He isn't from the street. I think he will do well this year if he does not succumb to injuries.

oohah

Street culture
An article of Wikipédia, the free encyclopaedia.

Definition

The "street culture" (in French, culture of the street) is a culture resulting from the large American cities, where the minorities (mainly afro-American ) are frequently found in the streets. Its principal components are: the skateboard , musics such as the rap or the hip-hop , and a marked vestimentary style.

http://216.239.37.104/translate_c?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&langpair=fr%7Cen&u=http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Street_culture&prev=/language_tools

Posted by fishmike:

allow my .2

KVH is not soft. He's got no problem with tough play, physical contact, fighting for rebounds and putting a body on guys. That being said he's horrible in the clutch and is a notorious playoff vanisher.

IN FACT: There is no active player in the NBA with a great gap in regular season production and playoff prodcution as KVH.

Career 522 463 32.7 .444 .360 .835 2.0 5.1 7.1 1.7 .84 .50 2.28 3.10 16.7
Playoff 43 37 30.0 .395 .414 .789 1.5 4.5 6.1 1.4 .86 .33 1.72 2.90 11.4

I would say between the Nets and 76ers Ive seen about 15 of KVH's 43 playoff games. The bottom line is he's scared to shoot the ball.

He's in a good role now and I wish him luck.

As for David Lee if he has near the career KVH has he's the hands down steal of the draft. When KVH came out and in his first couple of years he was every much as good as Gasol is now. A couple things on KVH. When he broke into the league he had the two guys who believed in him more than anyone he's played with since. Jason Williams and Sam Cassel. Sam I am set him up. Sam made his life simple. I will get you the ball and you score it. Jason Williams went out of his way to ensure that nobody took cheap shots at the big white boy and kept him under his wing. Look at his #s... they reflect this. Then Jason broke stuff and Cassell went bye bye. In comes Marbury. He rides Keith, hates Keith, generally makes things for Keith not fun and it kills KVH's confidence... that and all the losing. Now he's gun shy. No ifs ands or butts.

Posted by oohah:

I too, am referring to ON THE COURT. You are the one expanding this into other areas.

Okay. But "I am sure they all came from some street somewhere, so let's not take it there." led me to believe that you were expanding.

Prior to you rephrasing the statement, I was curious as to what your sefinition os :from the street" was. We have clarified that, though.

I was not referring to any statisitc. This is where you took things out of context.

Did I take things out of context? I am just wondering how this toughness is qualified, and I am still wondering.

I stated earlier that you took it out of context and explained why. If you're looking for a stat in which to quantify toughness, good luck.

Again, you blur the clear line between stats and toughness.

I didn't blur it, I am just wondering what 'toughness' is. Toughness in and of itself is worth not too much in a backetball game. The blurring here is between how good a player is vs. perceived toughness.

toughness (n.)

• 1: enduring strength and energy [syn: stamina, staying power]


• 2: the property of being big and strong [syn: huskiness, ruggedness]


• 3: the elasticity and hardness of a metal object; its ability to absorb considerable energy before cracking [syn: temper]


• 4: impressive difficulty [syn: formidability]

Which of there apply to KVH? I beleieve none apply. Maybe you disagree...

Nowhere did I say that Lee was an enforcer.

That is why I prefaced with "If you think"

Then it would be a good idea to not jump to the conclusion that you did in the rest of that paragraph:

If you think he is some kind of hard-nosed enforcer with twice the balls of Van Horn, I think you have bought into what has been written about KVH and ignored what he has actually done, and are perhaps enamored with DL's nice work in the pre-season.

OK, let me clarify it then: one doesn't have to be from anybody's "street" to have a tough persona on the court.

Having a 'tough persona' or 'playing with fire' is not the same as behaving like you're from the street or, more loosely put, acting like an assh*le.

That's the point I was making to begin with.

Does everyone have to have a tough persona? Isn't it good enough to be a productive player? Why ask KVH to be a tough guy? That's what the Charles Oakleys are for.

I agree, but it becomes a problem more often than not when the opposing offense keys in on that kind of 'soft' player. I don't want to see any weak links like that on this team, especially in the front court. I felt the same when he was here. +

Kenyon (moreso during his time w/the Nets) and Spree have talent and fire, which often appeals to fans. That's a topic deserving of it's own thread.

KVH has talent too. As far as fire, KM and LS have it, but they bring a load of negative behavior with it.

I never said that KVH had no talent, but we are worlds apart on whether he has fire.

I prefer Reggie Miller's type of fire myself. KM benefited greatly from his time with J Kidd, now he should back up his mouth with his game, like Sprewell has in the past. However, there used to be a place for the quiet players with steady games, like KVH.

I hear you, but times have changed. Teams are looking for players with a steady game on both ends of the floor, particularly in the frontcourt, unles that player shows consistent, examplary skill in a given area. There's still room for the type you mention on a team, but they are more often shooters primarily used to spot up (like Allan Houston, and he just retired!)

What about players like Zo, Big Ben, or even Shaq? Those players don't fit any same fan's definition of "soft", and they don't "misbehave" on or off the court either.

This is an easy one.

First off, unlike KVH, these guys are centers and 'power players'. Their job is to be the 'tough guy' on their teams. They are totally different types of players than KVH. Would it make sense if I said: Big Ben, Shaq, and Zo have no skills because they can't dribble through their legs, step back and hit a 3 like KVH?

OK, in my earlier point I mentioned that soft players are a liability particularly in the frontcourt. The players in the example are all frontcourt, as is 6'10" KVH.

I couldn't say for sure whether Shaq, Zo or Ben Wallace are gentlemen off the court, but I know they aren't criminals.

Exactly the point I was trying to make.

On the court, I saw Shaq take a roundhouse swing at Brad Miller while his back was turned, that was pretty ungentlemanly, but I wouldn't say he is not a gentleman on the court. Wallace is as tough as they come on the court, but I wouldn't say he does anything to be labeled 'ungentlemanly'.

Zo is dirty and ungentlemanly on the court. In college he made what I consider to be the dirtiest play I have ever seen. His ungentlemanly play in the NBA is well catalogued.

Zo is a great guy off the court, especially with all his efforts to help foster children.

What the hell makes KVH any more a gentleman that anyone else, including the names I just mentioned? NOTHING.

KVH is by all accounts and from what I have seen, a pleasant soft-spoken guy, even on the court.

I have no issue with that at all. It's just that KVH gets knocked around alot and looks/gets scared when he should step up hold his ground. That's the "softness" I had an issue with when he was here.

That dude is just plain SOFT.

But you refuse to qualify that statement in anyway, with any concrete examples.

Hopefully, this response will help clarify my stance.

No need to explain a thing. It's my opinion, just how you have yours. We will see during the season he ends up the next KVH or not. I hope to God that Lee is a helluva lot better than that.

If Lee is a Helluva lot better than KVH, we got an all-star on our hands.

I hope you are right! In fact, I hopeall three rooks become all-stars eventually.

Lastly, there's no reason to even go further with this KVH mess- I thnak God he's gone and I'm happy about the new direction in which the Knicks are going. Toss the KVH hats and let's root for the players that we have on this team NOW, which includes David Lee.

Fair Enough.

***

Fishmike said most of what I am trying to say much better than I did a couple of posts up.

oohah

Posted by HARDCOREKNICKSFAN:

Posted by fishmike:

allow my .2

KVH is not soft. He's got no problem with tough play, physical contact, fighting for rebounds and putting a body on guys. That being said he's horrible in the clutch and is a notorious playoff vanisher.

IN FACT: There is no active player in the NBA with a great gap in regular season production and playoff prodcution as KVH.

Career 522 463 32.7 .444 .360 .835 2.0 5.1 7.1 1.7 .84 .50 2.28 3.10 16.7
Playoff 43 37 30.0 .395 .414 .789 1.5 4.5 6.1 1.4 .86 .33 1.72 2.90 11.4

I would say between the Nets and 76ers Ive seen about 15 of KVH's 43 playoff games. The bottom line is he's scared to shoot the ball.

He's in a good role now and I wish him luck.

As for David Lee if he has near the career KVH has he's the hands down steal of the draft. When KVH came out and in his first couple of years he was every much as good as Gasol is now. A couple things on KVH. When he broke into the league he had the two guys who believed in him more than anyone he's played with since. Jason Williams and Sam Cassel. Sam I am set him up. Sam made his life simple. I will get you the ball and you score it. Jason Williams went out of his way to ensure that nobody took cheap shots at the big white boy and kept him under his wing. Look at his #s... they reflect this. Then Jason broke stuff and Cassell went bye bye. In comes Marbury. He rides Keith, hates Keith, generally makes things for Keith not fun and it kills KVH's confidence... that and all the losing. Now he's gun shy. No ifs ands or butts.

So KVH went soft because of Steph? LOL what's next, blaming Steph for cancer too?
KVH has been that way for the majority of his career- after Steph when he was traded from the Nets, and after Steph when he was finally traded from the Knicks. Gun shy? Come on.

Again, the Knicks have moved on, I know I sure have. The doom and gloom stuff is dead. This team is worth rooting for. Leave the past in the past, because the present and future is a MUCH prettier picture!