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Fire Thibs
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Nalod
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6/2/2025  6:54 PM    LAST EDITED: 6/2/2025  6:55 PM
VDesai wrote:Someone needs to tell Taj to retire as a player and join Thibs bench. A young guy with recent NBA experience who totally understands Thibs system and has an existing rapport with several players on the roster. I think he would be a great addition to the locker room and also has some chops in terms of knowledge of the game and communication.

PJ Tucker
Al Horford and KAT are good buddies from what I read thru Dominican basketball. He likely done with Celtic given the circumstances. Iso is a playoff centric thing that has a strong impression but ball movement has improved this year.

AUTOADVERT
GustavBahler
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6/2/2025  7:01 PM
https://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/tom-thibodeau-resurrected-the-knicks-but-firing-him-might-be-the-only-way-to-get-to-the-next-level/
Expectations are fluid in the NBA. Tom Thibodeau took over a New York Knicks team in 2020 that had just spent two decades wandering through the desert. At the time, achieving a baseline degree of competence was all the Knicks could ever ask out of a coach. Since he was hired for his first top job in 2011, he is the only person to win Coach of the Year without earning a top-three seed.

Five years ago, that's how low the bar was in New York. Getting the Knicks home-court advantage in a first-round series seemed borderline miraculous.

And on paper, Thibodeau worked miracles as recently as a few weeks ago. No team had ever overcome multiple 20-point second-half deficits in a single series. New York did so on the road in back-to-back games in Boston. Weren't these Knicks supposedly built specifically to beat the Celtics? They were well on their way to doing so even before Jayson Tatum went down, and Thibodeau was an essential component of that upset. On paper, beating Boston and reaching the conference finals probably exceeded New York's expectations.

But expectations change. Eliminating Boston created a golden opportunity. The 64-win Cleveland Cavaliers were knocked out of the second round as well, giving the Knicks home-court advantage in the conference finals. The Oklahoma City Thunder remained a heavy championship favorite, but needed seven games to escape the Denver Nuggets and are younger and less experienced than they will ever be. It's fair to suggest that this Knicks team will never have an easier path to the Finals and perhaps a championship than it just had ... and botched.

Six games after the euphoria of the Boston series, the Knicks have been eliminated with Saturday's 125-108 loss to Indiana. The Pacers are going to the Finals, and the Knicks are going into one of the most complicated summers in franchise history. They fired their roster bullets last offseason. The war chest of picks and assets was spent on Mikal Bridges and Karl-Anthony Towns. They have a team with two All-NBA stars and several of the most coveted role players in basketball. And Thibodeau never quite figured out how to use it.

An identity crisis
No team relied more heavily on its starters in the regular season than the Knicks. The five-man unit of Bridges, Towns, Jalen Brunson, Josh Hart and OG Anunoby played 940 minutes in the regular season. Only two other lineups in all of basketball played half as many. Cracks started showing in that unit during the regular season, then the wheels fell off in the playoffs. It took losing back-to-back home games in the conference finals to make a change.

It was necessary, but it was also desperate. Most successful coaches treat the regular season somewhat experimentally. They try different lineups so they can see what combinations work and are ready to adapt in the playoffs. Thibodeau didn't do that to the extent that he needed to. He rarely does. His commitment to his starters is notorious among head coaches. The rest of the series reeked of panic. That's what leads to minutes for Delon Wright and Landry Shamet when they'd been out of the rotation for the entire postseason. They had nothing else to try. That those minutes weren't disastrous was almost a happy accident. And it was ultimately too little, too late.

Never did Thibodeau address the core playing style concerns here. The Knicks lost their defensive identity with Isaiah Hartenstein. The theoretical purpose of the Towns trade -- aside from just filling in for the injured Mitchell Robinson -- was to reinvent the team as a five-out, offense-first juggernaut. It never really happened. Opponents disarmed New York's pick-and-roll offense by putting their centers on Josh Hart. That allowed them to provide extra rim help while knowing Hart wouldn't punish them as a shooter. The obvious counter to that would have been to start Miles McBride in Hart's place, injecting extra shooting into the starting lineup and providing a bit more ball-pressure defensively. Instead, the starters with McBride in Hart's place played only 82 regular-season possessions and 16 playoff possessions.

That might've been a solvable problem with a more creative approach to offense, but so much of what the Knicks do offensively boils down to Brunson dribbling. They ranked 18th in passes per game, 26th in average speed moved by their offensive players and 26th in pace. Unsurprisingly, that led to a suboptimal shot diet, as the Knicks ranked 28th in 3-point attempt rate and 23rd in free-throw rate. They got to the rim relatively frequently, but were inefficient once they got there.

The Knicks got away with uninspired offensive process in the past because they were the best offensive rebounding team in the NBA. With Hartenstein gone and Robinson hurt for most of the season, they weren't nearly as good this year. They still managed to rank No. 5 in offense during the regular season. Their talent is, obviously, considerable. But playoff-level opposition and coaching weakened them significantly. Brunson's individual brilliance saved them late in big games, but he can't singlehandedly carry an offense for 48 minutes. The Knicks scored an impressive 120.6 points per 100 possessions in fourth quarters this postseason. They were at 111.3 or below in each of the other three. At times it felt as if they had no system, no way of leveraging their considerable talent to consistently create advantages and keep all five players engaged. It was, far too often, Brunson dribbling. When it wasn't, it was usually just someone else dribbling.

The Knicks needed elite offense to win with this group because they just never got stops with Brunson and Towns on the floor at the same time. Some of that's on them. Some of it has to fall on Thibodeau, ostensibly a defensive-minded coach, to find a scheme that suits them. Towns has always struggled in Thibodeau's preferred drop-coverage. The Knicks tried to introduce more switching in the playoffs to counter the shooting of Boston and Indiana, but they lacked the muscle memory to do so all that effectively. The Pacers, for most of the series, could basically get to any matchup they wanted. They almost completely controlled the terms of engagement in the series, successfully goading the Knicks into track meets they weren't equipped to win.

It's not fair to lay all of this at the feet of a coach. Brunson is who he is. It's hard to run an offense with much movement when he is your centerpiece. Remember, when Rick Carlisle had him and Luka Dončić in Dallas, he ran a dribble-dribble-dribble offense too. Towns has been vulnerable defensively forever. The Knicks knew that when they got him. Thibodeau rarely used his bench, but he didn't have a great one to begin with. This was an impressively talented roster, but it probably wasn't one that especially suited its coach. Last year's team with Hartenstein fit the stereotypical Thibodeau mold to a tee. The CBA broke that group apart, so the Knicks made lemonade.

Who would the Knicks hire if they make coaching change?
This wasn't a one-and-done run. The Knicks are expensive, but they're equipped to stay together for a few years if they want to. They can duck the second apron without cutting any core players next season. Robinson expires after that, but if the Knicks are going into the second apron in 2027 anyway, they might as well YOLO their finances and pay to keep him. The oldest core player here, Hart, is only 30, and had Aaron Nesmith not had the greatest three-minute shooting stretch in NBA history, the conference finals likely return to New York for a Game 7. This may have been a blown opportunity, but it doesn't need to be the only opportunity. Boston is presumably sitting next year out. Cleveland has serious apron issues. The Knicks could run this thing back, take another swing at the Pacers and hope they connect.

That's certainly the old-world answer here. But the NBA really doesn't think that way anymore. Four of the past six championship-winning head coaches have been fired by the teams they won it all with. Memphis fired Taylor Jenkins in the middle of a playoff race in March, and that got overshadowed by Denver doing the same in April. Teams are less patient than ever. Maybe, in the era of the aprons, they have to be. Changing coaches isn't always the right lever to pull, but it's certainly the easiest. You can unilaterally choose to fire someone. You can't force another team to trade you good players.

It's easy to just say "the Knicks should fire Tom Thibodeau." Who exactly are they hiring to replace him? The name that comes up most frequently is Michael Malone. But he's almost as old-school as Thibodeau, and it's not as though he could import Nikola Jokić. What kind of offense would he run without the greatest offensive player of his generation?

Typically, when a team makes a coaching change, it wants someone that significantly differs stylistically from his predecessor. With Thibodeau, that describes Mike Budenzholer. He under-utilizes his starters. His teams pluck all of the low-hanging fruit, shooting a million 3s and protecting the basket relentlessly. But his playoff track record is shaky, and he's coming off of a bad season in Phoenix. There's not a Carlisle out there. There's no guarantee the Knicks could find someone better than Thibodeau.

There is a lot of untapped coaching talent in the NBA at any given time. The Knicks would do well not to limit themselves to bigger names if they do indeed conduct a search. Joe Mazzulla has quickly emerged as one of the NBA's best young coaches. If Will Hardy hadn't left for Utah, Mazzulla would probably still be an assistant in Boston right now. Where coaching is concerned, resumés are pretty circumstantial. Would Malone be a top candidate for future jobs without Jokić? Is there a genius assistant out there just waiting for the sort of chance Mazzulla got? Or maybe it's a second-chance candidate who's gone overlooked because of his circumstances?

James Borrego won 43 games in his final season with the Hornets. They've been stuck at 27 and below ever since. He very nearly got the Cleveland job last summer, and if he had, he might be the reigning Coach of the Year as Kenny Atkinson turned out to be. If he could go above .500 with the Hornets, he could do quite a bit more with the players New York has accumulated.

What about a coaching outsider? Is there another JJ Redick out there, someone with a proven basketball acumen who could take over a team without the baggage of a lifetime in the coaching profession? Maybe that's an older player ready to transition. Chris Paul probably still wants to play, but he was a longtime Leon Rose client who would seemingly jump to the top of everyone's candidates list if he decided he was interested in coaching. Maybe that's an avenue worth exploring?

These aren't slam dunks. Rarely are proven, elite head coaches available, and getting them usually requires some luck. Think of how the Pacers got Carlisle back. His decade-long tenure in Dallas happened to surprisingly end right as their job became available, and if Kevin Durant's foot had been a size smaller, the Bucks probably would have fired Budenholzer and dangled the opportunity to coach Giannis Antetokounmpo in front of him. Getting the perfect coach at the perfect time is often as much about luck as it is execution.

Frankly, so is winning. The Knicks lost the Eastern Conference finals in six games, but the losses were mostly close. A bit of shooting luck here, some better bounces there and it could be the Knicks heading to the Finals right now. Merely having the chance to compete at this level was almost unthinkable when Thibodeau arrived. A coach who isn't good enough to win the conference finals is still good enough to get there. How many Knicks coaches this century can say the same?

That's the burden these newfound expectations have put on the Knicks. Thibodeau dragged this team out of the gutter, but the traits that take a team from bad to good are not necessarily the ones that take it from good to great. Sometimes a coach can be an essential step in a process that ends without them. Now it's up to the Knicks to figure out whether the coach who made all of this possible is the one who can take them all the way.

Nalod
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6/2/2025  7:45 PM    LAST EDITED: 6/2/2025  7:51 PM
sam Quinn not saying much that any of us have.
What he not saying is our best player would not be all to pleased with a Thibian exile.
Lame to use the "Chis Paul a Leon client....."
A "JJ Redick type". I like JJ. Not for a team like ours.
Quinn forget Mazzula was Udoka assistant and go the gig as the season started? Is he really that good? That roster with one chip in three years? Maybe. Maybe not.
You really want to hand this roster to a guy without head coach experience? Has Thibs lost his voice with this team? Tell me has then I'll agree its time for a change.
Blame iHart perhaps, but Thibs freaking got him paid!!!!
DLeethal
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6/2/2025  9:49 PM
EwingsGlass
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6/2/2025  9:52 PM
DLeethal wrote:

Love Johnny Bryant. Hope he gets the nod.

You know I gonna spin wit it
Chandler
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6/2/2025  10:01 PM
EwingsGlass wrote:
houston20 wrote:If we are going to get rid of thibs then get Mike Malone then he best coach on the market. If you want to get assistant coach like Taylor Jenkins to look over thibs.

Can we discuss whether Bud is better than Malone without implicating Thibs in the discussion? I actually think Bud is from the better school of thought for today’s NBA. Putting aside the Phoenix **** show, I think Budenholzer is the heir apparent to the Popovich dynasty. I think he is the top Coach available on the market.

I'm in this camp. He's won with different teams in different ways.

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Chandler
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6/2/2025  10:10 PM
BigDaddyG wrote:
Nalod wrote:
houston20 wrote:
Nalod wrote:
Maybe its Rick Brunson that is not up to the task as Associate head coach?
We really doing the fawn over Bryant thing based on year end when his 64 win team got rolled over by the very same Pacers?

Jonny Bryant I think he is little overrated until this guy gets job and proves he is good coach to me.



You could be right. We love a fresh new dude with hope as a concept after a bad loss. While he has no chip to fawn over he has no warts either.

Dudes like Brad Stevens and Daigenaut were give a few years to grow with a young roster. This is not a team you hand to someone unproven.

Bud and Malone are winners but also have warts. Yes, so does Thibs but we are not close to being done with him.
perhaps a bonafide improved roster and another year he can't crack the chemistry code but regress would he even get the side eye by Leon. Thats just my opinion.

I hear a lot about Bryant's success as a good developmental coach, but I never hear anything about him as visionary Xs and Os guy. Not saying he isn't, but it makes me wonder why some guys are so high on him. I get that he's a younger, fresher face and he might very well be a damn good head coach if he gets the chance. But what exactly is the hype surrounding him and how close is it to reality?


My memory is he got a lot of credit for Donovan Mitchell. When he was drafted he was supposed to be a solid defender and project on offense (flat shot etc.). I think that assessment may have been correct for like 1 week.

He also was in Thibs' ear a lot during games without being shushed away. We played extremely well with a very depleted roster. This year we were not as effective at getting the most out of the squad -- though I love their heart and hope they work it out

He's being rumored as top candidate for PHX

I think we need a coach who knows how to use a big man who is better at O than D. I'm not sure Thibs has that figured out

This is why I'm hoping Malone somehow gets involved. Even if not as an assistant. Thibs visited other staffs in between gigs. So did Kenny Atkinson I believe and MDA

If Thibs respected Malone (or whoever else who is great with bigs) we can use some new ideas.

(5)(7)
Nalod
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6/2/2025  11:08 PM
Im sure Thibs is already working. We can offer all kinds of suggestions and an itinerary for his summer reading list but the man has a strong work ethic reputation and having no life but basketball. So he'll walk the earth seeking wisdom in all continents and find the answer to KAT and the meaning of life perhaps. I would also expect this has been an ongoing conversation since he was traded and KAT might have to also find a way.
Maybe a few weeks with Phil Jax in Montana and some mind altering compounds to get It right.
BigDaddyG
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6/2/2025  11:40 PM
Nalod wrote:Im sure Thibs is already working. We can offer all kinds of suggestions and an itinerary for his summer reading list but the man has a strong work ethic reputation and having no life but basketball. So he'll walk the earth seeking wisdom in all continents and find the answer to KAT and the meaning of life perhaps. I would also expect this has been an ongoing conversation since he was traded and KAT might have to also find a way.
Maybe a few weeks with Phil Jax in Montana and some mind altering compounds to get It right.

Projecting a little bit there?
Always... always remember: Less is less. More is more. More is better and twice as much is good too. Not enough is bad, and too much is never enough except when it's just about right. - The Tick
DLeethal
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6/3/2025  7:12 AM
Bud had ATL looking like the mini Spurs. But ever since then he’s seemed to take a hit to his rep everywhere he’s gone.
blkexec
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6/3/2025  7:20 AM
Nalod wrote:Im sure Thibs is already working. We can offer all kinds of suggestions and an itinerary for his summer reading list but the man has a strong work ethic reputation and having no life but basketball. So he'll walk the earth seeking wisdom in all continents and find the answer to KAT and the meaning of life perhaps. I would also expect this has been an ongoing conversation since he was traded and KAT might have to also find a way.
Maybe a few weeks with Phil Jax in Montana and some mind altering compounds to get It right.

This will not save his azz. The nba is based on results. If Dolan wants him gone, guess what? Doesn’t matter if he met with every specialist in the world.

But if he’s back he need 1 or 2 offensive creators.

Born in Brooklyn, Raised in Queens, Lives in Maryland. The future is bright, I'm a Knicks fan for life!
Nalod
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6/3/2025  8:21 AM
BigDaddyG wrote:
Nalod wrote:Im sure Thibs is already working. We can offer all kinds of suggestions and an itinerary for his summer reading list but the man has a strong work ethic reputation and having no life but basketball. So he'll walk the earth seeking wisdom in all continents and find the answer to KAT and the meaning of life perhaps. I would also expect this has been an ongoing conversation since he was traded and KAT might have to also find a way.
Maybe a few weeks with Phil Jax in Montana and some mind altering compounds to get It right.

Projecting a little bit there?

Not at all. I have yet to get it right!!!

Nalod
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6/3/2025  8:26 AM
DLeethal wrote:Bud had ATL looking like the mini Spurs. But ever since then he’s seemed to take a hit to his rep everywhere he’s gone.

He did win a chip with Milwaukee. Not like griffin or Doc fixed what was wrong there in his departure.
I thought his Brother died at or near the end of his run in Milwaukee. I don't know if they were close or the circumstances but perhaps that might have affected him. PHX his fault? I really don't follow that **** show so I can't say. IM sure he is part of it but the Ibisha ownership trying to make a splash with Isiah in his ear was a bad starphuch from day one.

In ATL he was team president and coach. The last of them I believe?

Nalod
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6/3/2025  8:35 AM
blkexec wrote:
Nalod wrote:Im sure Thibs is already working. We can offer all kinds of suggestions and an itinerary for his summer reading list but the man has a strong work ethic reputation and having no life but basketball. So he'll walk the earth seeking wisdom in all continents and find the answer to KAT and the meaning of life perhaps. I would also expect this has been an ongoing conversation since he was traded and KAT might have to also find a way.
Maybe a few weeks with Phil Jax in Montana and some mind altering compounds to get It right.

This will not save his azz. The nba is based on results. If Dolan wants him gone, guess what? Doesn’t matter if he met with every specialist in the world.

But if he’s back he need 1 or 2 offensive creators.

We all know if an owner wants a coach gone its his prerogative to do so. Some owners are very hands on. Dolan has vowed to not be. My guess is its Leon's call.

In 5 years we gone from laughingstock to ECF final four. While we fans might think there was more upside to this team the fact is its not always done in 1 season when a new core is bought together. Maybe lessor coach does not get this far?

Your right its based on results but there is a layer of interpretation when it comes to potential and expectations.

martin
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6/3/2025  8:51 AM
blkexec wrote:
Nalod wrote:Im sure Thibs is already working. We can offer all kinds of suggestions and an itinerary for his summer reading list but the man has a strong work ethic reputation and having no life but basketball. So he'll walk the earth seeking wisdom in all continents and find the answer to KAT and the meaning of life perhaps. I would also expect this has been an ongoing conversation since he was traded and KAT might have to also find a way.
Maybe a few weeks with Phil Jax in Montana and some mind altering compounds to get It right.

This will not save his azz. The nba is based on results. If Dolan wants him gone, guess what? Doesn’t matter if he met with every specialist in the world.

But if he’s back he need 1 or 2 offensive creators.

Except when fans pre announce a coach has reached his limit and is already on the hot seat for next season anyway so he should be fired. Fire Thibs

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blkexec
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6/3/2025  10:39 AM
martin wrote:
blkexec wrote:
Nalod wrote:Im sure Thibs is already working. We can offer all kinds of suggestions and an itinerary for his summer reading list but the man has a strong work ethic reputation and having no life but basketball. So he'll walk the earth seeking wisdom in all continents and find the answer to KAT and the meaning of life perhaps. I would also expect this has been an ongoing conversation since he was traded and KAT might have to also find a way.
Maybe a few weeks with Phil Jax in Montana and some mind altering compounds to get It right.

This will not save his azz. The nba is based on results. If Dolan wants him gone, guess what? Doesn’t matter if he met with every specialist in the world.

But if he’s back he need 1 or 2 offensive creators.

Except when fans pre announce a coach has reached his limit and is already on the hot seat for next season anyway so he should be fired. Fire Thibs

Well, you know the phrase. Can't teach an old dog new tricks. So it's natural for fans to look at Thibs and suggest he's too old school for this new school basketball culture of out scoring your opponent vs stopping them.

I believe we are very close and I honestly can't point my finger at one thing.

You can say OKC and Indy are two of the deepest teams in the nba. So one would think we need to beef up our bench. But how do we know Thibs will play this new deep bench? My guess is Thibs will continue to play a tight rotation. So upgrade that rotation if you can. Add a star that pushes Hart to the bench. I prefer Deuce to start, but thats a slap in the face to Hart, and may not work based on Deuce's latest performance.

The best move might be no moves (no major moves).

I still think Thibs coaching staff (at a minimum) needs some upgrades. Thibs needs some mentoring and suggestions on his offense and how to be the best out of this group. Towns needs a defensive coach and a ISO coach. Towns and JB should run pick and rolls every day in the off season. Makes no sense not to. Two of the best offensive players on the team.

If we see this, we can assume Thibs and others see it. But the results do not reflect this understanding.

Born in Brooklyn, Raised in Queens, Lives in Maryland. The future is bright, I'm a Knicks fan for life!
Nalod
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6/3/2025  11:56 AM
blkexec wrote:
martin wrote:
blkexec wrote:
Nalod wrote:Im sure Thibs is already working. We can offer all kinds of suggestions and an itinerary for his summer reading list but the man has a strong work ethic reputation and having no life but basketball. So he'll walk the earth seeking wisdom in all continents and find the answer to KAT and the meaning of life perhaps. I would also expect this has been an ongoing conversation since he was traded and KAT might have to also find a way.
Maybe a few weeks with Phil Jax in Montana and some mind altering compounds to get It right.

This will not save his azz. The nba is based on results. If Dolan wants him gone, guess what? Doesn’t matter if he met with every specialist in the world.

But if he’s back he need 1 or 2 offensive creators.

Except when fans pre announce a coach has reached his limit and is already on the hot seat for next season anyway so he should be fired. Fire Thibs

Well, you know the phrase. Can't teach an old dog new tricks. So it's natural for fans to look at Thibs and suggest he's too old school for this new school basketball culture of out scoring your opponent vs stopping them.

I believe we are very close and I honestly can't point my finger at one thing.

You can say OKC and Indy are two of the deepest teams in the nba. So one would think we need to beef up our bench. But how do we know Thibs will play this new deep bench? My guess is Thibs will continue to play a tight rotation. So upgrade that rotation if you can. Add a star that pushes Hart to the bench. I prefer Deuce to start, but thats a slap in the face to Hart, and may not work based on Deuce's latest performance.

The best move might be no moves (no major moves).

I still think Thibs coaching staff (at a minimum) needs some upgrades. Thibs needs some mentoring and suggestions on his offense and how to be the best out of this group. Towns needs a defensive coach and a ISO coach. Towns and JB should run pick and rolls every day in the off season. Makes no sense not to. Two of the best offensive players on the team.

If we see this, we can assume Thibs and others see it. But the results do not reflect this understanding.

This talented core and its coaches could have done better. Its possible good coaching prevented many inherent deficiencies and perhaps a lesser staff does worse?
We don't know what Thibs tasked his assistants and to what degree. Was it coaching or players not executing? Read locker room issues are basketball issues. From what we see its Kat not executing defense schematics. That on Coach Bryant? Thibs? Others? Fred Flintstone, Ehrman? We don't know.
Thibs will be evaluated and he will evaluate his staff. Maybe e we see changes, maybe we see them extended for doing a good job.
Lets not forget Rosas is the defacto GM of this team. Leon is the president and has the final say. Dolan writes the checks. Still, World Wide Wes does what??? LOL
I have a lot of confidence in our FO. They got us to this place.

Teach old dogs new tricks? Maybe players not so much but coaches absolutely can.

houston20
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6/3/2025  1:05 PM
If we don’t hear anything in the next 2 weeks by June 16 2025 thibs not fired then he is going coach next season. You want have your coach before the draft June 25 even though only have 1 pick in second round but you don’t want to take to long to get your coach. Look at suns it almost 2 months to get coach and there season ended in April.
Nalod
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6/3/2025  1:56 PM
There always exists the slim chance Thibs after 5 years might have reached the end of his path and perhaps is done.
Larry Brown thought there was a limit to his voice in an organization and 5 years was often the case.
Im not here to predict anything or any sense Thibs has reached any conclusion as such or he is burnt out. If so its not likely to be a public knowledge.
Teams in short order when a season ends the players get treatment and do exit interviews with coach and perhaps without. Some players are told what to work on, what their plans are if under contract, and perhaps off season plan to think about. Most take some time off. The yoot will return soon enough for work outs and perhaps ready for summer league. If not plan to return perhaps they are told this or what the schedule of consideration will be once free agency starts. Thats usually for agents.
But I suspect Houston20 is spot on that in short time a vote of confidence is given and the issue is put to bed if its to be.
BigDaddyG
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6/3/2025  2:15 PM
Always... always remember: Less is less. More is more. More is better and twice as much is good too. Not enough is bad, and too much is never enough except when it's just about right. - The Tick
Fire Thibs

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