dodger78 wrote:

arkrud wrote:

holfresh wrote:

arkrud wrote:

NumberTwoPencil wrote:No, not a joke.

I swore I wouldn't look at this topic . . . busman's holiday, sanity, and all but . . . I read a few pages and this didn't make me as depressed as the last time I looked. Maybe it's that things are so ****ed up and bull**** that mild crazy looks okay or maybe my expectations have dropped. I see a lot more sense here than I did during the election. I have faith that at least a few people here are realizing that, no, the election was no joke. And, I _think_ I see a few people paying attention and maybe, just maybe, changing their minds.

I'm hoping that some people who said that they were concerned about terrorism are realizing that this weekend's travel ban is a gift to ISIS. That a president who puts guys who _want_ a war with Islam on the National Security Council is maybe not a wise man. That a Secretary of the Treasury from Goldman Sachs is maybe not what you had in mind when Trump attacked Clinton for speaking at Goldman Sachs. That the GOP plan for health care is basically less health care for more money. It's maybe the same discussion as during the election but, whew, the specifics have changed a lot.

I work in a odd little nook of politics, a largely non-partisan job but one that comes with absorbing large amounts of political news and thinking and when I go home at night . . . I like basketball, among other things. Sadly, every day, I wrestle with "This is not a joke!!!" So, because it's no joke--perhaps less of joke than any other time in my life--once in a while, a New Year's pledge basically, I'm going to mix politics with bball. Steve Kerr and Pops do it :)

Trump making a good job of waking out America.
No matter right or wrong he will took country out of the rabbit hole of denial.
The world turmoil is real and America cannot escape it of buy its way out.
American people will have to take sites and make decisions and leave with consequences.
I know this is uncomfortable, disturbing, and hard but not avoidable anymore.

Trump and his supporters are short sighted yet shockingly *cocksure in the ignorance they wish to project on others...It's not enough that you bear this ugly hatred in your hearts but you want it shared and adapted by the world. Well the majority chose what was opposite to Trump's beliefs and you see it in various protest. The fact that he is in the White House doesn't mean he has the endorsement of the entire country but fact is, the minority. He can run off and start wars like other ideologues but he will be isolated and sidelined with his supporters. The quicker people on the sidelines are awakened the better. So Trump's behavior does have it's benefits that could pay dividends in the long run...So while you look for support in your fractious agenda, I hope this is the awakening all of America, if not the World, needs...

I am glad that we agree on this.
This is the test of the strength of American Republican system of governance.
And this a test how far the American society evolved to prevent emergence of totalitarian state which can come from both left and right.
Can we as a nation swing back to center and common sense?
This will define our future and ultimately the future of the whole world.

Agree... but its a test MANY countries face at the moment! Its way to short sighted to make this an unique American problem even though of course the US has a strong weight in international affairs... but can you imagine Trump facing Putin facing an EU led by LePen, Orban, Petry (German AFD right-head party leader), May and other nationalist leaders?! Thats chaos for the world!

It is a chaos already. The democratic domain is clearly shrinking.
The progress of the world is clearly threatened.
At some point the world may see only small islands of prosperity and humanity.
We need to be ready to accept it and persevere the dark times.
This is not the first time of reaction in the history of mankind and not the last one.
Big sacrifices will need to be made. Many nations will falter in chaos and despair.

dodger78 wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:Good post Dodger. My only edit would be that it's not America First and eff the rest. It's America first at the cost of the rest. Long have Americans viewed themselves as superior to everyone else and it has led to this pervasive notion that not only are we better than everyone, we should by rights have more than everyone else and its ok if everyone else pays for it. It's an extreme form of entitlement coming from those who routinely use their position against entitlements as the primary reason for their votes.

True... at the same time similar ppl with the same sence of entitlement can be found in France (Vive la France-no you are not French... you are coming from one of these collonies from back in the days...), UK (oh man we have been the center of the world in the past... STRONG Empire and all...) and even now in Germany where the rethoric is more like... come on we have been told our errors from the past for long enough... we are such a great Volk we do need to step up for our own NOW or all these refugees will take everything away we worked for so hard (lets just ignore the work all these italian, turkish, spanish and greek etc. workers put in to make our economy great again after these wars back then...

You know... basically its kinda the same thing everywhere with small "local" nouances... but the MAJOR message is always the same... seperation, nationalism and the impact will be felt by everybody... :-(

No one can make wine from water and use 7 breads to feed thousands.
Borders exist to separate counties of different level of social and economical progress for a reason.
If you let them dissolve prematurely you will inevitably end up with nationalism and protectionism.
This is not about some politics - its about nature of human beings which no one can change.
It only can evolve slowly and under specific conditions.
It is painfully clear that our society intellectuals overreached again as it already happened with French, German, and Russian revolutions. The "new" "progressive" human being they think we are does not exist.
For the most part we still are selfish violent greedy carnivores who can only be contained by the fear of prosecution.

dodger78 wrote:

holfresh wrote:

arkrud wrote:

NumberTwoPencil wrote:No, not a joke.

I swore I wouldn't look at this topic . . . busman's holiday, sanity, and all but . . . I read a few pages and this didn't make me as depressed as the last time I looked. Maybe it's that things are so ****ed up and bull**** that mild crazy looks okay or maybe my expectations have dropped. I see a lot more sense here than I did during the election. I have faith that at least a few people here are realizing that, no, the election was no joke. And, I _think_ I see a few people paying attention and maybe, just maybe, changing their minds.

I'm hoping that some people who said that they were concerned about terrorism are realizing that this weekend's travel ban is a gift to ISIS. That a president who puts guys who _want_ a war with Islam on the National Security Council is maybe not a wise man. That a Secretary of the Treasury from Goldman Sachs is maybe not what you had in mind when Trump attacked Clinton for speaking at Goldman Sachs. That the GOP plan for health care is basically less health care for more money. It's maybe the same discussion as during the election but, whew, the specifics have changed a lot.

I work in a odd little nook of politics, a largely non-partisan job but one that comes with absorbing large amounts of political news and thinking and when I go home at night . . . I like basketball, among other things. Sadly, every day, I wrestle with "This is not a joke!!!" So, because it's no joke--perhaps less of joke than any other time in my life--once in a while, a New Year's pledge basically, I'm going to mix politics with bball. Steve Kerr and Pops do it :)

Trump making a good job of waking out America.
No matter right or wrong he will took country out of the rabbit hole of denial.
The world turmoil is real and America cannot escape it of buy its way out.
American people will have to take sites and make decisions and leave with consequences.
I know this is uncomfortable, disturbing, and hard but not avoidable anymore.

Trump and his supporters are short sighted yet shockingly *cocksure in the ignorance they wish to project on others...It's not enough that you bear this ugly hatred in your hearts but you want it shared and adapted by the world. Well the majority chose what was opposite to Trump's beliefs and you see it in various protest. The fact that he is in the White House doesn't mean he has the endorsement of the entire country but fact is, the minority. He can run off and start wars like other ideologues but he will be isolated and sidelined with his supporters. The quicker people on the sidelines are awakened the better. So Trump's behavior does have it's benefits that could pay dividends in the long run...So while you look for support in your fractious agenda, I hope this is the awakening all of America, if not the World, needs...

Yes we have to take a stance but it is not necessarily a stance of globlization vs nationalism.
We all have to decide if we want to take up the responsibilities for our nations deeds and act following our moral code.
We have to decide on this moral code.
Look... generally speaking until Merkel did something very unusal for her, by taking up an "unpopular" moral stance pro refugees, voting for her was rather simple to do... Germany has a flourishing economy. We have a great social welfare net which basically works for the VAST majority of ppl here. Now... we have reached this partially by having a huge negative influence/impact on different regions in the world (kinda reminds you of the US?!?).
NOW is the time for everybody to decide if he/she is willing to potentiall sacrifice JUST A BIT of the luxury of our lives... things we have come to cherrish for us and our families in order to start solving issues around the globe.

Am I willing to not have this high job security, the well paid job and the safe wellfare for me and my family... will I be happy with a LITTLE less but follow a moral code and for example stop exporting all our good German weapons to countries in war around the globe?
This will cost jobs and threaten our status quo ... just a little bit.

THATS the decision we all have to make... and our societies are doing this right now and are torn by it...
I understand this...
It happens everywhere...
In Poland, Hungary, France, Germany (horrible rethoric happening here with our past in mind... its scary how ppl forget their past!) AND it already happened in the US...

Now ALL I ask from ppl ... that includes all Trump voters to at least be honest...
Admit that you decided to go AMERICA FIRST and FUCK THE REST... because thats what it is...
Same thing with ppl voting for LePen in France... same with the AFD voters in Germany... it is CLEAR seperation from the rest of the world... but you go full throttle...

I for my part am NOT interested to live in a world where the only "open" thing is the internet with borders being closed and countries being close to straight out wars again... all this is a HUGE STEP BACK FOR HUMANITY!!!

The WORLD is so much bigger than country borders!!!

Europe has to get it's hands dirty in global matters and not just leave it or wait on the US to fight for global democracy and equality. With Syria/Middle East on it's doorsteps, it was incumbent upon Europe to take a stance even before the US. But they didn't. The US can't bear the cost financially, and in human toll, to intervene on everyone's behalf. This is the problem our so called allies had with Obama. We can't fight everyone's war..The US has the luxury of wide oceans to stem the flow of migrants, Europe doesn't. So Europe more so than the US has to decide whether it wants to join the US in a fight that we are already engaged in... I think the US has already made that decision. Society in the United States are in a different place than the current President Donald Trump. He isn't speaking for a majority of the people. The electoral college, a system to elect our President in the US, is a rigged system. We are now being controlled by the minority. 3 million more people voted for the Democrats. As a result, I do not recognize the actions of this President as speaking for a majority of Americans. His policies is only as good for as long as he is in office.

We all should be guilty of not intervening in Syria and not just the United States. The US just finished being engaged in two wars and the American public didn't have the appetite for another war. Europe should have stepped in.

I don't think sealing our borders is an option. We live our first world lives based on a global economy which exploits labor from those nations we seek to seal off. It's not happening...That ship has sailed a long time ago...

TheGame wrote:Dude, are you all still talking about this stuff? We just need to give all the rope he needs to hang himself. I hope he continues to do outlandish stuff. By The end of the year, we will be at war with somebody. By 2019, the economy will tank, and hopefully, these idiots that elected Trump will realize that change for the sake of change is often not a good thing.

You didn't learn anything from the elections did you? The more embarrassing, outlandish, irrational horse$hit he pulls the more his base gets energized. He can promise them the moon and deliver a truckload of trash and they'll LOVE it. Nothing that happened, is happening and will happen is bound by rules of reasoning anymore. The ALT RIGHT is eating up ALT FACTS it doesn't matter if it's detrimental to them. They can always blame that on he media and the establishment. If you are waiting for him to hang himself you are not even comprehending the problem.

gunsnewing wrote:

Nalod wrote:Ignorance breeds fear.

European views are very different than the views shared by the radical left here. If you research what is going on over there the majority feel humanity let them down. They open their doors to humanity and now some of those same people are killing them. I do feel for the innocent refugee children who get caught in the middle of it all. It has to end and this is the administration that may end put an end to it. Everyone is free to interpret things as they wish but what I'm seeing is administration that is at the forefront of leading the rest of the world in the fight against radical terrorism. They are setting a presidence for other nations to follow.

But thats inly a small part of the picture here!
We all now had our terrorist event(s) France, UK, Germany etc...
But memories here are short... And fear of terror is not the main driver of the right parties here...
Its much more mundane... Its the fear to loose whats yours... Pensions, welfare, jobs even the cultural identity... All is in danger... Or so you are told...
And the most f€&@ up thing is that espexially those regions where barely any immigrant is moving to are those woth the most radical fears!

Id it all were about terror i could understand some... But this is plain fear to lose stuff you see as yours... To ppl who have litterslly nothing btw!

Gregor Gysi said it best when he asnswered a guy voicing his concerns... "Do you really think that these billions would go into public infrastructure?!?"
In germany we have not taken up any new debt as a state for five years straight...
Gov is not giving back to the ppl though...
Non of the 22 billion spend on refugees here would have gone to these complaining...

It was written above EU should stand up and participate in Syria etc ...
Well we do... We sell weapons.
Its simple we are making money with wars.
Same as on the UK and US had financial agemdas in Iraq back kn the days.

The thing is we, the western world screwed up many parts of the world... Palestine/Isreal, many border issues in Africa, Middle East we medled with...

Dont ger me wrong I think the non existing solidarity and will to stabilize these regions by the local govs is a huge issue but we are in the middle of it all!
Now to come up with nationalist id as and fearmongering is just WRONG!

dodger78 wrote:

arkrud wrote:

dodger78 wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:Good post Dodger. My only edit would be that it's not America First and eff the rest. It's America first at the cost of the rest. Long have Americans viewed themselves as superior to everyone else and it has led to this pervasive notion that not only are we better than everyone, we should by rights have more than everyone else and its ok if everyone else pays for it. It's an extreme form of entitlement coming from those who routinely use their position against entitlements as the primary reason for their votes.

True... at the same time similar ppl with the same sence of entitlement can be found in France (Vive la France-no you are not French... you are coming from one of these collonies from back in the days...), UK (oh man we have been the center of the world in the past... STRONG Empire and all...) and even now in Germany where the rethoric is more like... come on we have been told our errors from the past for long enough... we are such a great Volk we do need to step up for our own NOW or all these refugees will take everything away we worked for so hard (lets just ignore the work all these italian, turkish, spanish and greek etc. workers put in to make our economy great again after these wars back then...

You know... basically its kinda the same thing everywhere with small "local" nouances... but the MAJOR message is always the same... seperation, nationalism and the impact will be felt by everybody... :-(

No one can make wine from water and use 7 breads to feed thousands.
Borders exist to separate counties of different level of social and economical progress for a reason.
If you let them dissolve prematurely you will inevitably end up with nationalism and protectionism.
This is not about some politics - its about nature of human beings which no one can change.
It only can evolve slowly and under specific conditions.
It is painfully clear that our society intellectuals overreached again as it already happened with French, German, and Russian revolutions. The "new" "progressive" human being they think we are does not exist.
For the most part we still are selfish violent greedy carnivores who can only be contained by the fear of prosecution.

I get what you are saying... I am just still refusing to accept these things as facts yet... I still have hope that ppl have become a little more open to humanitarian values...
I mean... Trump aside... just to see the millions of ppl mobilized during the past days (women's march, reactions to the Trump ban etc.) kinda prefents me to simply resignate...

Screw the politicians. They are only good in divide and rule.
This never changed since Ancient Rome. Left or Right... they are here to deceive us.
Humanity is a personal responsibility of every individual and cannot be outsourced to political parties and leaders.
One cannot be progressive by association.
The only humanitarian way of approaching the complicated world is to be steady, careful, and keep it real.
"Happiness for all and no one is should end up offended" is not yet even a close possibility.
So the sacrifices must be made. Life is not a Comic book.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/tech/news/2017/01/30/trump-targets-techs-h1b-visa-hiring-tool/97240588/


SAN FRANCISCO — President Trump's relationship with Silicon Valley has always been volatile at best, but it seems things soon may get even more contentious.

Administration officials have drafted a new executive order aimed at overhauling, among other things, the H-1B work-visa program that technology companies have long relied on to bring top foreign engineering talent to their U.S.-based locations.

In his news briefing Monday, White House press secretary Sean Spicer said the possible executive order on work visas "is part of a larger immigration effort" and stems from "an overall need to look at all of these measures."

The order, which has yet to come into effect, arrives on the heels of Friday's controversial immigration ban targeting seven majority-Muslim countries that sparked protests at airports around the country over the weekend.

That ban, which the White House modified Sunday to not affect green card holders, roiled tech leaders who almost universally denounced the move.

holfresh wrote:Trump targets tech's H-1B visa hiring tool

http://www.usatoday.com/story/tech/news/2017/01/30/trump-targets-techs-h1b-visa-hiring-tool/97240588/


SAN FRANCISCO — President Trump's relationship with Silicon Valley has always been volatile at best, but it seems things soon may get even more contentious.

Administration officials have drafted a new executive order aimed at overhauling, among other things, the H-1B work-visa program that technology companies have long relied on to bring top foreign engineering talent to their U.S.-based locations.

In his news briefing Monday, White House press secretary Sean Spicer said the possible executive order on work visas "is part of a larger immigration effort" and stems from "an overall need to look at all of these measures."

The order, which has yet to come into effect, arrives on the heels of Friday's controversial immigration ban targeting seven majority-Muslim countries that sparked protests at airports around the country over the weekend.

That ban, which the White House modified Sunday to not affect green card holders, roiled tech leaders who almost universally denounced the move.

With the amount of fraud happening and loss of American jobs to cheap foreign labor- it's about time someone is wakes up.

gr33d wrote:

holfresh wrote:Trump targets tech's H-1B visa hiring tool

http://www.usatoday.com/story/tech/news/2017/01/30/trump-targets-techs-h1b-visa-hiring-tool/97240588/


SAN FRANCISCO — President Trump's relationship with Silicon Valley has always been volatile at best, but it seems things soon may get even more contentious.

Administration officials have drafted a new executive order aimed at overhauling, among other things, the H-1B work-visa program that technology companies have long relied on to bring top foreign engineering talent to their U.S.-based locations.

In his news briefing Monday, White House press secretary Sean Spicer said the possible executive order on work visas "is part of a larger immigration effort" and stems from "an overall need to look at all of these measures."

The order, which has yet to come into effect, arrives on the heels of Friday's controversial immigration ban targeting seven majority-Muslim countries that sparked protests at airports around the country over the weekend.

That ban, which the White House modified Sunday to not affect green card holders, roiled tech leaders who almost universally denounced the move.

With the amount of fraud happening and loss of American jobs to cheap foreign labor- it's about time someone is wakes up.

What fraud are you referring to??..We are talking about mostly software engineers which will affect Silicon Valley in a big way...Those engineers are few and far between in the US...
Google and other start ups doesn't have to be founded in the US...We are lucky they are and are paying taxes here...

America First.

gunsnewing wrote:

Nalod wrote:Ignorance breeds fear.

European views are very different than the views shared by the radical left here. If you research what is going on over there the majority feel humanity let them down. They open their doors to humanity and now some of those same people are killing them. I do feel for the innocent refugee children who get caught in the middle of it all. It has to end and this is the administration that may end put an end to it. Everyone is free to interpret things as they wish but what I'm seeing is administration that is at the forefront of leading the rest of the world in the fight against radical terrorism. They are setting a presidence for other nations to follow. We and the rest of the world will be very grateful in due time.

And they are not detaining and deporting legal residents and u.s. citizens as the media and radical dems have lead you to believe this weekend. If they are detaining legal residents for hours then that is on homeland security for
misinterpreting our laws. If that is the case than than this administration will have to clean house and get more competent people in there. Those coming in legally with visas are being vetted as they e always been only more thoroughly. The ones sneaking through illegally get sent back. Been the case since the dawn of time.

Didn't you post yesterday that people get vetted at the airport? According to the "process" is people get vetted then released as they enter the country? Now you think they are not supposed to detain legal residents for hours? While no one (including the idiot in chief) knows what the rule means - this is what has been reported

Where do green card holders from Trump's seven banned countries stand?
Senior officials at the Department of Homeland Security initially interpreted Trump's order to not apply to green card holders from the seven banned countries. Trump White House overruled that reading, however, meaning those green card holders were initially barred.

http://www.cnn.com/2017/01/29/politics/donald-trump-travel-ban-green-card-dual-citizens/

SMH