Jmpasq wrote:

fishmike wrote:

fishmike wrote:Obi is gonna be a beast. Let Thibs and crew have their way. He and IQ are gonna be game winning Thib-grinding-minions

phuck yeah mother bitches

This whole thread is Jmpasq desperate for Obi to stink. Its quite a downer. Have a piece of candy or wank off or something. Phucks sakes how does someone hate on a kid drafted by the team they claim to be a fan of?

He was the wrong pick. I'm tired of watching the front office build teams that can't compete. Wake me up when Obi is a better player than Haliburton. Who by the way averaged 17 and 10 on the Pacers. He shot 50% from the floor and 40% from the 3. I will admit I was wrong then. I still think Obi is a back-up big that offers zero postional flexibility. A couple games against teams that had nothing to play for won't change my opinion of him. There isn't one team in the league that would take Obi over Haliburton if they had the choice. At least we have the dunk contest in the bag though right. Its going to be awesome watching the team lose 50 games next year without a PG.

Jmpasq is correct here. Toppin was the wrong pick.

I don't think though that it's necessary to compare Toppin to Haliburton to see the flaws in the decision making. If you get a defense first coach in Thibs, why would you get a lottery pick who can't play defense? If you get a player who is clearly only going to help you offense, why would you pick a player who can't create his own shot? If you get a big man who isn't a true Stretch 4, why would you get a guy who can't defend the rim?

Did Toppin score a lot of points in the last 10 games or so? Sure, but he was being fed at the primary offensive option most of the time. How will play out over the long haul? I mean not against the Armoni Brooks of the world or after teams are either tanking or resting their guys for the playoffs, but against a full season attrition and grind night after night?

The modern space and pace style game has some specific types of roles that it needs to work. Everyone plays the modern space and pace style game for a reason - it works and it's how you win in the current league. Toppin fits none of those roles. Absolutely zero. And this was all projectible from his draft class.

Something I keep saying and I think it's in line with what Jmpasq is getting at here himself is - The Knicks shouldn't make **** harder than it needs to be but yet they keep doing it. Don't hire a 70 year with no front office experience who wants to install a complicated offense that no one runs anymore in the NBA. How mother****ing hard is that? Dolan had to make **** harder than it needed to be. Just hire someone trained and groomed already to run a front office. How about a young Assistant GM from some winning team? Is that so ****ing complicated?

Same thing with Toppin. Get a wing who can defend and hit an open three point shot and projects as a baseline 3 & D wing. How hard is that? That kind of player is the most valuable in the entire NBA. And the Knicks can use more solid 3&D guys. Why get in your own way and draft an older player who can't play defense, can't defend the rim, can't create his own shot and doesn't fit anywhere near the kind of player that your new veteran head coach tends to use and maximize?

The Warriors just picked up Kuminga and Moody in the last draft. They could have gotten "cute" with their picks but they just looked for solid players who were projectible defensively with clear upside. Don't get in your own way.

I can see why Jmpasq is frustrated. This team made some good decisions last year, aside from Toppin, and then reverted back to the typical WTF strategy in this last offseason. Then the same gallery of homer dick suckers here want to gaslight him for pointing out the entire madness. I don't get it personally. Some people here are so eager to suck Frank N's dick or Dennis Smith Jrs dick or Trey Burke's dick or Enes Kanter's dick and on and on and on, without any reflection on why those players don't generally help team's win.

TripleThreat wrote:

Jmpasq wrote:

fishmike wrote:

fishmike wrote:Obi is gonna be a beast. Let Thibs and crew have their way. He and IQ are gonna be game winning Thib-grinding-minions

phuck yeah mother bitches

This whole thread is Jmpasq desperate for Obi to stink. Its quite a downer. Have a piece of candy or wank off or something. Phucks sakes how does someone hate on a kid drafted by the team they claim to be a fan of?

He was the wrong pick. I'm tired of watching the front office build teams that can't compete. Wake me up when Obi is a better player than Haliburton. Who by the way averaged 17 and 10 on the Pacers. He shot 50% from the floor and 40% from the 3. I will admit I was wrong then. I still think Obi is a back-up big that offers zero postional flexibility. A couple games against teams that had nothing to play for won't change my opinion of him. There isn't one team in the league that would take Obi over Haliburton if they had the choice. At least we have the dunk contest in the bag though right. Its going to be awesome watching the team lose 50 games next year without a PG.

Jmpasq is correct here. Toppin was the wrong pick.

I don't think though that it's necessary to compare Toppin to Haliburton to see the flaws in the decision making. If you get a defense first coach in Thibs, why would you get a lottery pick who can't play defense? If you get a player who is clearly only going to help you offense, why would you pick a player who can't create his own shot? If you get a big man who isn't a true Stretch 4, why would you get a guy who can't defend the rim?

Did Toppin score a lot of points in the last 10 games or so? Sure, but he was being fed at the primary offensive option most of the time. How will play out over the long haul? I mean not against the Armoni Brooks of the world or after teams are either tanking or resting their guys for the playoffs, but against a full season attrition and grind night after night?

The modern space and pace style game has some specific types of roles that it needs to work. Everyone plays the modern space and pace style game for a reason - it works and it's how you win in the current league. Toppin fits none of those roles. Absolutely zero. And this was all projectible from his draft class.

Something I keep saying and I think it's in line with what Jmpasq is getting at here himself is - The Knicks shouldn't make **** harder than it needs to be but yet they keep doing it. Don't hire a 70 year with no front office experience who wants to install a complicated offense that no one runs anymore in the NBA. How mother****ing hard is that? Dolan had to make **** harder than it needed to be. Just hire someone trained and groomed already to run a front office. How about a young Assistant GM from some winning team? Is that so ****ing complicated?

Same thing with Toppin. Get a wing who can defend and hit an open three point shot and projects as a baseline 3 & D wing. How hard is that? That kind of player is the most valuable in the entire NBA. And the Knicks can use more solid 3&D guys. Why get in your own way and draft an older player who can't play defense, can't defend the rim, can't create his own shot and doesn't fit anywhere near the kind of player that your new veteran head coach tends to use and maximize?

The Warriors just picked up Kuminga and Moody in the last draft. They could have gotten "cute" with their picks but they just looked for solid players who were projectible defensively with clear upside. Don't get in your own way.

I can see why Jmpasq is frustrated. This team made some good decisions last year, aside from Toppin, and then reverted back to the typical WTF strategy in this last offseason. Then the same gallery of homer dick suckers here want to gaslight him for pointing out the entire madness. I don't get it personally. Some people here are so eager to suck Frank N's dick or Dennis Smith Jrs dick or Trey Burke's dick or Enes Kanter's dick and on and on and on, without any reflection on why those players don't generally help team's win.

Wake me when I should give a fart in a wind over Haliburton

ramtour420 wrote:

Jmpasq wrote:

fishmike wrote:

fishmike wrote:Obi is gonna be a beast. Let Thibs and crew have their way. He and IQ are gonna be game winning Thib-grinding-minions

phuck yeah mother bitches

This whole thread is Jmpasq desperate for Obi to stink. Its quite a downer. Have a piece of candy or wank off or something. Phucks sakes how does someone hate on a kid drafted by the team they claim to be a fan of?

He was the wrong pick. I'm tired of watching the front office build teams that can't compete. Wake me up when Obi is a better player than Haliburton. Who by the way averaged 17 and 10 on the Pacers. He shot 50% from the floor and 40% from the 3. I will admit I was wrong then. I still think Obi is a back-up big that offers zero postional flexibility. A couple games against teams that had nothing to play for won't change my opinion of him. There isn't one team in the league that would take Obi over Haliburton if they had the choice. At least we have the dunk contest in the bag though right. Its going to be awesome watching the team lose 50 games next year without a PG.

I think you are mixing up the best possible hypothetical pick (Haliburton) with the best consensus pick at the time( Obi). Wow. Way to go, clap clap. Hindsight 20 fking 30 much? Really? Come on now, Obi pick was a grandslam and it set us forward a bunch. Just admit it already. A cost controlled starting PF who could turn into a star is nothing to shake your Slam Dunk competition winner at. One that runs the fast break, off the ball movement, backdoor cuts ftw, while showing glimpses of being able to take advantage of mismatches down low as well as having some advanced footwork and spotting up from the 3 land if given the minutes? All while helping ball movement and playing unselfish basketball? Sign me up !!! We could really build on that. If Obi develops some ISO moves( he already has some in his bag) he could be an All-Star

Toppin is NOT a starting player so far in this league. He got some spot starts at the end of this season. He had a nice end of season stretch and put up counting stats with volume, mostly against teams already trying to reset for the playoffs or teams already given up and playing their 2nd and 3rd string units.

Toppin hasn't proven yet he can be a night in and night out starter in this league. The primary problem to start is defense. He can't effectively defend on the wing and he can't defend the rim and he has zero value in switching. So where exactly does he have a role on defense? Well the team and Thibs can hide him on defense or try to do so. But you generally only do that for players who are offensive engines. Guys who bring so much offensively, that you accept the trade offs where their defense hurts you. And Toppin can't create his own shot.

If Toppin could provide some kind of basic defensive usefulness in a functional role, Thibs might actually play him more. But until that happens, he's going to be a reserve. And there's nothing wrong with a player being a reserve but the question raises itself was the lottery pick used to select him maximized for it's total value? My take is it was not. Jmpasq's take is not.

Toppin was for "value for slot" where he was selected by the Knicks based on where pundits had most picks placed against the aggregate rankings. There's some push/pull to that. Technically speaking, Stromile Swift was value for slot as the 2nd overall pick in the 2000 draft.

Toppin is not getting 20+ to 25+ shots a game on a regular basis. He's not enough of an offensive engine to carry a team night in and night out at that kind of volume. Then why exactly is he on the roster?

No one "hates" Obi Toppin. He's a hard worker and appears to be a good teammate. But the reality is the Knicks could have used the pick better. And NOT just in hindsight. Toppin's flaws were apparent and clear before his draft. Too much is made that Thibs has some kind of hard on against young players. Well, one thing for sure, we know Thibs has a hard on against players who can't play defense.

Build on what? Toppin is going to enter his third season and he's an older player to start and it's unclear if he has the ability to be a starter in this league. If the Knicks start him, now they have to account for all the questions he brings to the table, and what exactly are the positive trade offs to compensate for those deep and ugly questions? I keep hearing Toppin will do this and that and this and that on offense. OK, and if you give him 30-35 minutes a night, how badly is he going to hurt you on defense? If Toppin scores 15 a night and gives up 35 on the other end, how does that help this team win games?

fishmike wrote:

TripleThreat wrote:

Jmpasq wrote:

fishmike wrote:

fishmike wrote:Obi is gonna be a beast. Let Thibs and crew have their way. He and IQ are gonna be game winning Thib-grinding-minions

phuck yeah mother bitches

This whole thread is Jmpasq desperate for Obi to stink. Its quite a downer. Have a piece of candy or wank off or something. Phucks sakes how does someone hate on a kid drafted by the team they claim to be a fan of?

He was the wrong pick. I'm tired of watching the front office build teams that can't compete. Wake me up when Obi is a better player than Haliburton. Who by the way averaged 17 and 10 on the Pacers. He shot 50% from the floor and 40% from the 3. I will admit I was wrong then. I still think Obi is a back-up big that offers zero postional flexibility. A couple games against teams that had nothing to play for won't change my opinion of him. There isn't one team in the league that would take Obi over Haliburton if they had the choice. At least we have the dunk contest in the bag though right. Its going to be awesome watching the team lose 50 games next year without a PG.

Jmpasq is correct here. Toppin was the wrong pick.

I don't think though that it's necessary to compare Toppin to Haliburton to see the flaws in the decision making. If you get a defense first coach in Thibs, why would you get a lottery pick who can't play defense? If you get a player who is clearly only going to help you offense, why would you pick a player who can't create his own shot? If you get a big man who isn't a true Stretch 4, why would you get a guy who can't defend the rim?

Did Toppin score a lot of points in the last 10 games or so? Sure, but he was being fed at the primary offensive option most of the time. How will play out over the long haul? I mean not against the Armoni Brooks of the world or after teams are either tanking or resting their guys for the playoffs, but against a full season attrition and grind night after night?

The modern space and pace style game has some specific types of roles that it needs to work. Everyone plays the modern space and pace style game for a reason - it works and it's how you win in the current league. Toppin fits none of those roles. Absolutely zero. And this was all projectible from his draft class.

Something I keep saying and I think it's in line with what Jmpasq is getting at here himself is - The Knicks shouldn't make **** harder than it needs to be but yet they keep doing it. Don't hire a 70 year with no front office experience who wants to install a complicated offense that no one runs anymore in the NBA. How mother****ing hard is that? Dolan had to make **** harder than it needed to be. Just hire someone trained and groomed already to run a front office. How about a young Assistant GM from some winning team? Is that so ****ing complicated?

Same thing with Toppin. Get a wing who can defend and hit an open three point shot and projects as a baseline 3 & D wing. How hard is that? That kind of player is the most valuable in the entire NBA. And the Knicks can use more solid 3&D guys. Why get in your own way and draft an older player who can't play defense, can't defend the rim, can't create his own shot and doesn't fit anywhere near the kind of player that your new veteran head coach tends to use and maximize?

The Warriors just picked up Kuminga and Moody in the last draft. They could have gotten "cute" with their picks but they just looked for solid players who were projectible defensively with clear upside. Don't get in your own way.

I can see why Jmpasq is frustrated. This team made some good decisions last year, aside from Toppin, and then reverted back to the typical WTF strategy in this last offseason. Then the same gallery of homer dick suckers here want to gaslight him for pointing out the entire madness. I don't get it personally. Some people here are so eager to suck Frank N's dick or Dennis Smith Jrs dick or Trey Burke's dick or Enes Kanter's dick and on and on and on, without any reflection on why those players don't generally help team's win.

Jmpasq and TripleThreat... I am sorry your mothers didnt hug you. Obi is gonna be just fine. But you guys keep on fighting that good fight. Good chance Haliburton isnt even as good as IQ when all is said and done.

Wake me when I should give a fart in a wind over Haliburton

Halliburton is already better than Kobe. The Knick haters on twitter and the media say so so it has to be true