Nalod wrote:
They say sometimes a sign of intelligence is knowing what you don't know.
1248 lacks this.

Are you serious? Someone likes Young and feels Frank is not suited for PG and you question his intellgence. Guess guys that post drunken nonsense are much smarter?

No matter how much the 24/7 posters on here claim it to be true...ITS NOT! Frank has not shown he is a modern day PG. In case anyone watches the NBA, there are not that many All Star caliber PG focused on defense and shooting in the 30's. Kemba, Kyle, Lillard, KI, CP3, Westbrook, Steph. In fact, if Frank continues this type of play, its safe to say he will be playing role minutes in within the next three years. BTW, guess the Knicks FO has no "Signs of Intelligence" or did they just invite Young out to their training facility for ****s and giggles? So lets just talk about what is REAL, not FAN dream state bull****, Frank was picked for PG. He did not play well at that position. Knicks seem to think he is better suited at the 2 and may be going after another PG in the draft.

martin wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

fishmike wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

Nalod wrote:Trey had the ball about every possession. He should have that many assists.
Im not buying the hype bought on by Curry tearing it up in the finals. Fans like to assimilate whats in front of them.
I want him if he is curry. we all saw Bobby Hurley struggle in the NBA. He might have over come his size and developed and we'll never know. Bobby had a great team (young does not) around him and he was winner.
Trae Young was awesome then he was not. This is a concern.
Not sure he even lasts until 9th. If there, who is not?
Im top three baring any Michael Porter or other suprise is:

Wendel Carter
Mikal Bridges
Trae Young.

My take is teams make a list, then go with whose at the top of it when its time.
If Danny Ainge calls don't even take it.

You dont get two points for passing the ball. Someone has to make it. Id buy the stat stuffer inference, if Young didnt lead the NCAA in assists. You guys make it sound like its so easy, problem is that Young did it first.

Hurley was T-Boned by a station wagon his rookie year. Never was the same player physically.

Young expending all his energy on offense in all likelihood took away from his defense. Wouldnt have that issue on a team with KP.

I see Sexton or Young at 9, Id like to see Perry/Mills pick one of them. KP needs all the help he can get while the team rebuilds. The alternative is paying through the nose in free agency. Burke is the only real offensive threat at PG right now.

Its much easier to lead in assists when there is no pressure to take care of the ball. There is nothing good about Young's A:TO ratio. Its horrific. The problem with Young's stats is the volume it took to collect them. Also there is this:

Young shot 22.8 percent (28-of-123) in his final 11 games. He missed 21 straight 3-pointers during a three-game span. The Sooners lost nine of their last 11, including first-round exits in the Big 12 and NCAA Tournaments.

You arent even drafting Young on a great freshman season. You are doing it on a HALF of one.

This is less me killing Young and more about looking at better options on the board. If it were all question marks maybe Young makes more sense. There will be good NBA players at 9.

Thats just not true, look at the talent level of his teamates. If the assists are no big deal because of the volume, the turnovers shouldnt bother you either for the same reason, volume.

The kid is a freshman pushing the envelope on offense, not surprised about the growing pains. We arent tslking about a blue chip athlete surrounded by blue chip athletes on an elite team. A freshman who can get this much out of his team is remarkable.

The last 11 games where everyone knew how dangerous a player Young is, and maybe combined with some burnout from having defenses focus mainly on him, with little help was too much. Frank's pro experience (off the bench) was hyped endlessly here. What Young did was much more impressive.

Question for anyone entering the league is what skills will translate to the NBA and what flaws will ruin them. We all try to make educated guess on what will translate and what will ruin them. Young's size is a legit concern into the question of will his skills be able to translate at NBA level efficiently. His teammates will be better but so will the level of comp and quality of athletes. Its really anyone's guess to how Young's career will turn out. Odds aren't in his favor though. For me personally, scoring guards come every year. Would rather value unique skills that are harder to acquire. Such as Wendal Carter who can shoot, post, pass, rebound, defend on the switch, 6'10 with a 7'3 WS, offers overall tons of flexibility for his coach. Probably even go the safer route with Bridges if it comes down to them 2 as at least another piece added to the 2-way collection. Young does offer some uniqueness to his game. Making him more interesting than the usual scoring guard will give him that.

With Frank, he got promoted to the starting spot half way through the season as the youngest player in the league. And with him as the starter his team went to the championship game. During the championship game Frank looked like the best player on his team. But again that stuff doesn't matter as much as what can translate to the NBA. Frank at 6'5 7ft wingspan and a good foundation of fundamentals and principals with pros at age 18 vs grown ups offered a better translatable vision in the NBA then Young does.

Young may be such a talent that he is greater than his deficiencies(again against the odds). I guess that's what these workouts and interviews will start to determine for front office personnel.

Young has apparently bulked up some since the Tourney. The specifics are in the last link I posted. Also Mills quote from the post:

Trae] is a little bit bigger than he looked on the court,’’ Mills added in his first remarks about any of the 2018 draft prospects. “You look at what he did with the players he had around him and what he did at the start of the season. You have to say this guy has a chance to be a special player.’’

With a 5"9 (maybe) Isaiah Thomas having the season he did before his hip went out. I dont find size a compelling reason to pass on a 6'2 Young who is putting on muscle. Who looks faster than Thomas. Only 19, might grow a little more.

If he were to fall to 9 where even PG craved teams like Orlando or Cleveland pass on him. Or teams like Philly or LAC don't make a move for him. It would most likely be due to the size issue. If he is that talented and size isn't much of an issue for him. Then we have no shot at him. The only way he falls is if teams are scared off by his size.

Its also would be in the Knicks best interest to talk him up if they want another team to make a play for him. If they really want him they should be acting like they aren't interested publicly but offering him promises quietly.

Or it could be how Young ended the season. Other teams passing on Young isnt a good enough reason to do the same.

Other teams passing on him is a strong indication that they view his size as a problem and us fans aren't the only ones who are concerned about it. How he finished the season doesn't matter as much as the question was he exposed? Will his game be able to translate at NBA level? Will his positive outweigh the possible liability he could be on defense.

D'Russell was the next Curry before Young. Right now Russell is an inefficient scorer with limited defensive cappabilites.

If young is the most talented player on the board. I would look to trade him for high value. Again this is of course unless he wows in his workout and puts our concerns to rest. But I wouldn't draft a player strictly for his potential positive while completely ignoring the negative.

Russell was putting up 20/7 before he got hurt his first season in Brooklyn. Really silly posters are still talking about him like he was a bust. Better defender than you claim.

No one is ignoring anything, just not placing the same emphasis on the holes in a 19 year old's game when he has much more going for him skillwise.

Look at the article Crush posted from Nylon Calculus. There is more to the effect Trae had on his team than you claim.

Don't care about the points as much as how efficient he was combined with his defense. Remember reading articles about his coach criticizing for shot selection and defensive effort. Him dropping 20-7 just means he can produce volume on a bad team as a featured player.

All in all your saying its not justifiable to not draft him at 9 if he is there. I just don't agree with that. As its not even guaranteed that his best ability is able to translate into the nessesary level of efficiency at the NBA level. If that's the case then what?

I'm gonna check out that article your talking about.

So your ok with drafting a kid who plays d but can't score, or make anyone better

But your not ok with a kid who can score and make others better but a little suspect on defense.

Thats being a hypocrite or just straight up Bias

In the lottery, no I am not okay with a player that plays D but can't score or make anyone better. If that's what Frank resulted into then I would be disappointed. Those aren't my expectations for him so I can't say that that's what I am okay with. I don't mind the logic used for drafting him though. And making anyone better isn't just an offensive thing. If we drafted Young and Frank was asked to guard the tougher opponent that Young can't cover would that not be hiding Young's weakness? If Frank can guard an opponents best perimeter player. Would that not help ease the burden of other players from that responsibility? Is being #1 in PNR defense not making the job easier for KP from getting attacked by penetration leading to fouls? If Frank can successfully switch and guard from the PG to some PFs. Does that not make the job easier for Fizz's gameplan defensively.

With Frank's defensive potential. Offensively all he would need to do is put up 36% 3pt shooting, and provide the ability to put the ball on the floor when the defense is off balance for drives and either layups or dishes which he is capable of both. We will see what level he is able to reach with his improved body and the work ethic he is putting in on that aspect of his game. And those are low end possibilities but due to his defensive potential that is mostly what he would need to be required to do to be an overall impact player.

I am also okay with a kid who can score and make other better but a little suspect on defense because the overall impact would be a positive one. But the question about Young isn't if he is a little suspect on defense but if he is a liability. And the questions about Young is if his offensive game will translate to the NBA level at the level you described of being able to score and make other better in a highly efficient manner. Young offers 0 of defensive capabilities that Frank has the potential to offer in terms of guarding an opponents best perimeter player, guarding multiple positions, being able to handle himself on switches.

That was a general statement, I wasn't directing it at frank or Trae but since we're on the subject my thinking is this.

Having both would be great, having just one is awful because i can't afford to have frank on the floor avg 5 points and shooting horrible, and I can't afford to have trae on the floor letting every pg blow by him because he's small and fatigue from playing hero ball.

I like Burke enough to Give him the nod to start, but having Trae, frank and Burke with FIZ as the coach in the offense he wants to run..that's a good look..

You need to project players and what they will become.

GS would be horrible if Draymond played like he did in his rookie year, same with Curry. But they don't

If you project Frank to be a pretty darn good PG who can run a team, make the right decisions, and lock down players, then drafting Trae (if his defense is deficient and you don't think his college play translates to the pro's) would be a waste of a pick.

Wait, so there is a ceiling for Young but none for Frank? And because a player who had a bad rookie year was able to improve exponentially(Green), this means Frank will be able to improve every weakness in his game? Be a great PG?

Fact is, no one knows either. Either prediction is just as plausible. In fact, the idea of Young being able to perform at the PG position in the NBA is more plausible at this time. Considering he has not had the chance and NO ONE knows. Frank on the other hand had a chance, grant it only one year, but he showed in that year that he is not ready to be an NBA PG. Will he? Maybe, possibly. This silly notion sounds like the same ones that crowned Gallo, Frye, Chandler, David Lee, etc etc as future NBA All Stars we should count on. The only thing that Frank has shown to be is a very good long defender. But to say we should project him as being a good shooter and PG is as bad as saying Young will be a great NBA player.

reub wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

Nalod wrote:
They say sometimes a sign of intelligence is knowing what you don't know.
1248 lacks this.

Are you serious? Someone likes Young and feels Frank is not suited for PG and you question his intellgence. Guess guys that post drunken nonsense are much smarter?

No matter how much the 24/7 posters on here claim it to be true...ITS NOT! Frank has not shown he is a modern day PG. In case anyone watches the NBA, there are not that many All Star caliber PG focused on defense and shooting in the 30's. Kemba, Kyle, Lillard, KI, CP3, Westbrook, Steph. In fact, if Frank continues this type of play, its safe to say he will be playing role minutes in within the next three years. BTW, guess the Knicks FO has no "Signs of Intelligence" or did they just invite Young out to their training facility for ****s and giggles? So lets just talk about what is REAL, not FAN dream state bull****, Frank was picked for PG. He did not play well at that position. Knicks seem to think he is better suited at the 2 and may be going after another PG in the draft.

Frank is younger than most of the players to be drafted later this month.

Your absolutely right. Was I arguing his age? Does this mean he is guaranteed to be a good NBA PG? But okay lets talk age, have said before that it is tough to gauge a players future development, at such an young age. Was never a fan of picking a one and done guy. Should we continue to pick 18 year old kids in the draft? Seems like a bit of a risk to me? Liked it better when kids got their 4 years under their belts. It just became such a competitive business that teams are afraid to miss out on the next LBJ. But more times than not, the players taken at such a young age are a craps shoot.

That's crazy if true. I think he has a chance if he learns how to finish like Kyrie or Curry which is .a tall task to duplicate. I do think he has a great chance to succeed because of his passing and the space he'll have on the next level.

Most 2017 re-drafts have him in the mid to late 20's.

knicks1248 wrote:If Frank was in this yrs draft, there's no damn way he would get picked before Trae or collen.

Most 2017 re-drafts have him in the mid to late 20's.

I look forward to the eventual back tracking. "Frank was my guy the whole time, I just didn't like the way Jeff was developing him".

As said last yrs draft. Scoring guards come along every draft. There is no immediate rush to acquire one due to the constant supply offered to the NBA. Young offers some uniqueness that makes him intriguing to look at and analyze. To see if he can provide game changing abilities. But guys like Frank offer unique abilities that you aren't going to find every yr.

Frank as a pure prospect can potentially do more on a basketball court than either of them. Would like to land a big like Carter who provides similar uniqueness and flexibility &/or a wing that can provide similar multi positional defending and versatile offense with premium lotto pick. Because that's the substance that will take to win in this league today.

knicks1248 wrote:If Frank was in this yrs draft, there's no damn way he would get picked before Trae or collen.

Most 2017 re-drafts have him in the mid to late 20's.

Show me re-drafts where he's in the mid to late 20s. All the ones i have seen have him in the top half of the teens. You love to take shots at this kid for no reason.

newyorknewyork wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:If Frank was in this yrs draft, there's no damn way he would get picked before Trae or collen.

Most 2017 re-drafts have him in the mid to late 20's.

I look forward to the eventual back tracking. "Frank was my guy the whole time, I just didn't like the way Jeff was developing him".

As said last yrs draft. Scoring guards come along every draft. There is no immediate rush to acquire one due to the constant supply offered to the NBA. Young offers some uniqueness that makes him intriguing to look at and analyze. To see if he can provide game changing abilities. But guys like Frank offer unique abilities that you aren't going to find every yr.

Frank as a pure prospect can potentially do more on a basketball court than either of them. Would like to land a big like Carter who provides similar uniqueness and flexibility &/or a wing that can provide similar multi positional defending and versatile offense with premium lotto pick. Because that's the substance that will take to win in this league today.

I would be thrilled if Frank turned into more than a role players, and I 100% agree with JH and his staff piss poor job.

I don't agree that guards like Trae are always available in the draft, and we have been in the lottery forever and only have frank, kp, and dotson to show for it.

The knicks, cleveland, and magic are the only teams in the east without an above avg pg that can put up 20+ on any giving night.

The jury is still out on burke, but we have suffered too long without and elite pg

Knixkik wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:If Frank was in this yrs draft, there's no damn way he would get picked before Trae or collen.

Most 2017 re-drafts have him in the mid to late 20's.

I look forward to the eventual back tracking. "Frank was my guy the whole time, I just didn't like the way Jeff was developing him".

As said last yrs draft. Scoring guards come along every draft. There is no immediate rush to acquire one due to the constant supply offered to the NBA. Young offers some uniqueness that makes him intriguing to look at and analyze. To see if he can provide game changing abilities. But guys like Frank offer unique abilities that you aren't going to find every yr.

Frank as a pure prospect can potentially do more on a basketball court than either of them. Would like to land a big like Carter who provides similar uniqueness and flexibility &/or a wing that can provide similar multi positional defending and versatile offense with premium lotto pick. Because that's the substance that will take to win in this league today.

"Scoring guard". So easy to find. So easy that we had to start Jarett Jack.

I dont believe you want to see anyone supplant Frank as a PG. You talk about turnovers, Frank was a turnover machine, and some of the most amateurish TOs a pro can make.

Talk about scoring being overrated. Nothing to do with little or no scoring from Frank? I know wait 4-5 years.

Well we did find Burke for free, who scores like crazy. So that would someone support the idea that scoring guards are easier to find.

Burke was a top 10 pick who took the long road to finding his game. How many former top ten picks with Burke's offense are floating out there?

Before that it was a former MVP, with his best days behind him. If PGs with enough offense to start were so plentiful, we wouldnt have gone through so many aging PGs before Burke.

knicks1248 wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:If Frank was in this yrs draft, there's no damn way he would get picked before Trae or collen.

Most 2017 re-drafts have him in the mid to late 20's.

I look forward to the eventual back tracking. "Frank was my guy the whole time, I just didn't like the way Jeff was developing him".

As said last yrs draft. Scoring guards come along every draft. There is no immediate rush to acquire one due to the constant supply offered to the NBA. Young offers some uniqueness that makes him intriguing to look at and analyze. To see if he can provide game changing abilities. But guys like Frank offer unique abilities that you aren't going to find every yr.

Frank as a pure prospect can potentially do more on a basketball court than either of them. Would like to land a big like Carter who provides similar uniqueness and flexibility &/or a wing that can provide similar multi positional defending and versatile offense with premium lotto pick. Because that's the substance that will take to win in this league today.

I would be thrilled if Frank turned into more than a role players, and I 100% agree with JH and his staff piss poor job.

I don't agree that guards like Trae are always available in the draft, and we have been in the lottery forever and only have frank, kp, and dotson to show for it.

The knicks, cleveland, and magic are the only teams in the east without an above avg pg that can put up 20+ on any giving night.

The jury is still out on burke, but we have suffered too long without and elite pg

Young offers some uniqueness that makes him intriguing to look at and analyze. To see if he can provide game changing abilities.

How many draft picks did we actually own? You have a proven history of being willing to trade away draft picks to win now. All you do is hedge.

newyorknewyork wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

Nalod wrote:
They say sometimes a sign of intelligence is knowing what you don't know.
1248 lacks this.

Are you serious? Someone likes Young and feels Frank is not suited for PG and you question his intellgence. Guess guys that post drunken nonsense are much smarter?

No matter how much the 24/7 posters on here claim it to be true...ITS NOT! Frank has not shown he is a modern day PG. In case anyone watches the NBA, there are not that many All Star caliber PG focused on defense and shooting in the 30's. Kemba, Kyle, Lillard, KI, CP3, Westbrook, Steph. In fact, if Frank continues this type of play, its safe to say he will be playing role minutes in within the next three years. BTW, guess the Knicks FO has no "Signs of Intelligence" or did they just invite Young out to their training facility for ****s and giggles? So lets just talk about what is REAL, not FAN dream state bull****, Frank was picked for PG. He did not play well at that position. Knicks seem to think he is better suited at the 2 and may be going after another PG in the draft.

I don't think his comments are based on him liking Young.

While I agree Frank needs to show more when speaking on his ability to run PG specifically. His shot attempts being as low as they were kind of exaggerate his fg%. Due to the volume Frank shot at. Frank would have only needed to hit 48 of the shots he took to be at 46% fg%. Basically he would have had to have made .6 shots a game based on his volume to jump 10% points which is pretty drastic. He would have had to have make only 20 more 3s total on the year based on the volume he took to jump from 32%-45% from 3. Him being able score as a play maker will probably take more seasoning than just one off season as well as his overall PG development. But him getting that 3 pointer down can be something that he can fix this off season.

That may be true. But that is one of my concerns for him, on offense, at the 2 and definitely at PG. Just not a style of play that fits in with NBA teams experiencing success in todays NBA. Meaning the PG that is creating and always putting pressure on the defense. He is not very aggressive nor does he seem to have a shooters confidence. Which btw, are tough things to teach. You either have that scorers mentality or you don't. I am hoping it was because of a new system, first year but if you look at some other first year guys like Kuzma, Mitchell, Smith, you see guys that have a more aggressive mentality.