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Melo is at peace but still doesn't get it
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crzymdups
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3/30/2017  2:03 PM
JrZyHuStLa wrote:
crzymdups wrote:Just out of curiousity.

Do you guys blame Jimmy Butler for the dysfunction in Chicago?

Was it KG's fault the Timberwolves sucked and he didn't win jack until he got traded to Boston and teamed up with two other actual stars in their primes?

Is it Chris Paul's fault the Clippers never made it out of the second round?

Is it Anthony Davis's fault the Pelicans suck?

Was it Barkley's fault the Sixers never won a championship?

Was it Chris Webber's fault the Kings didn't make it past the Lakers?

Just wondering where these other NBA greats who couldn't get over the hump on dysfunctional or even great teams stand in your minds.

I looked at this and one thing jumped out.

They're all good to great defensive players.

Your friend Carmelo isn't.

Webber is good to great defensive player? Innnnnnnteresting. I think Webber just spat out his coffee wherever he is and he doesn't even know why.

But, okay, sure... they're almost all better passers and defenders than Melo. Melo is a better scorer than almost all of them. Different players have different strengths, very few guys are great at everything. So... why did their teams suck if they not only passed, but also defended?

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nixluva
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3/30/2017  2:07 PM
The thing about Melo and Rose is that they came up short in many of the close losses for this team. It's supported by the stats. In the 4th qtr these are the stats for the Knicks. I edited the stats to show the On Court +/- in the 4th Qtr this year for the Knicks main rotation players. IMO Melo and Rose should be at the top of this list.


ON COURT	      GP  MIN  +/-
Porzingis, Kristaps   62  8.7  1.3
Randle, Chasson        9  5.7  1.1
Noah, Joakim          20  7.1  1.0
Kuzminskas, Mindaugas 48  5.3  0.9
Hernangomez, Willy    47  6.4  0.5
Holiday, Justin       70  7.0  0.1
Anthony, Carmelo      62  7.2  0.1
Lee, Courtney         57  7.5 -0.1
Rose, Derrick         55  7.5 -0.1
O'Quinn, Kyle         45  5.3 -0.8
Thomas, Lance         31  8.0 -0.9

http://stats.nba.com/team/#!/1610612752/onoffcourt-traditional/?Season=2016-17&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4&sort=PLUS_MINUS&dir=1

Think about all those close games we lost and how often Rose fumbled it away or Melo forced up shots rather than make the clear pass. I can remember quite a few games like that. Of course others failed to come thru as well, but my main point is that Melo and Rose are far and away the most talented and accomplished players on this team. They handle the ball the most as well. We have a LOT of young players who aren't ready to be 4th Qtr impact players so the onus goes to Melo and Rose.
fishmike
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3/30/2017  2:09 PM
In a few years KP will have to face the responsibility of being a veteran, possibly the face of a franchise and the team's highest paid player. However that is still about 3-4 years away.

The thing that really hurts you with Melo is you know he can play different, he's shown he can play different, he has simply opted to not play different. He might be the most frustrating player to follow.

"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
nixluva
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3/30/2017  2:12 PM
crzymdups wrote:Just out of curiosity, how many games do you guys think the Knicks would've won this year if Melo moved the ball?

I tend to think it might be around 33. Let's make it 34 in honor of Oak. Oak did have the biggest game in the Garden this year after all.

Really, Melo should be celebrated for getting us a top five pick. But oh wait, getting a top five pick was somehow part of Phil's masterplan, even though it's all Melo's fault. Do I have that right?

It's not just Melo but also Rose who needed to be better facilitating for this team and leading. When they both do that it makes the game easier for the less talented players. That's usually how it works with teams. You have TALENTED players who make it easier for the less talented players to play a role. Or perhaps you think Melo and Rose should just be falling back and being role players. How else is it supposed to work except that your best and most experienced players lead the way???
crzymdups
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3/30/2017  2:13 PM
fishmike wrote:In a few years KP will have to face the responsibility of being a veteran, possibly the face of a franchise and the team's highest paid player. However that is still about 3-4 years away.

The thing that really hurts you with Melo is you know he can play different, he's shown he can play different, he has simply opted to not play different. He might be the most frustrating player to follow.

You honestly don't think the coach's scheme this season had anything to do with how he played differently?

Look at the players across the league - how many guys who have had four coaches in four years have any success? The team is in shambles. There is some very strong evidence that the coach didn't give a clear message this year on offense or defense.

You really can't see that? You really look at this team and say Melo is the reason why they're bad? How many games do you think they would've won if 32 year old Melo was moving the ball? Honestly?

¿ △ ?
crzymdups
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3/30/2017  2:14 PM
nixluva wrote:
crzymdups wrote:Just out of curiosity, how many games do you guys think the Knicks would've won this year if Melo moved the ball?

I tend to think it might be around 33. Let's make it 34 in honor of Oak. Oak did have the biggest game in the Garden this year after all.

Really, Melo should be celebrated for getting us a top five pick. But oh wait, getting a top five pick was somehow part of Phil's masterplan, even though it's all Melo's fault. Do I have that right?

It's not just Melo but also Rose who needed to be better facilitating for this team and leading. When they both do that it makes the game easier for the less talented players. That's usually how it works with teams. You have TALENTED players who make it easier for the less talented players to play a role. Or perhaps you think Melo and Rose should just be falling back and being role players. How else is it supposed to work except that your best and most experienced players lead the way???

If you aren't going to answer the question, why bother responding?

Here it is again -

Just out of curiosity, how many games do you guys think the Knicks would've won this year if Melo moved the ball?

¿ △ ?
JrZyHuStLa
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3/30/2017  2:18 PM
crzymdups wrote:
JrZyHuStLa wrote:
crzymdups wrote:Just out of curiousity.

Do you guys blame Jimmy Butler for the dysfunction in Chicago?

Was it KG's fault the Timberwolves sucked and he didn't win jack until he got traded to Boston and teamed up with two other actual stars in their primes?

Is it Chris Paul's fault the Clippers never made it out of the second round?

Is it Anthony Davis's fault the Pelicans suck?

Was it Barkley's fault the Sixers never won a championship?

Was it Chris Webber's fault the Kings didn't make it past the Lakers?

Just wondering where these other NBA greats who couldn't get over the hump on dysfunctional or even great teams stand in your minds.

I looked at this and one thing jumped out.

They're all good to great defensive players.

Your friend Carmelo isn't.

Webber is good to great defensive player? Innnnnnnteresting. I think Webber just spat out his coffee wherever he is and he doesn't even know why.

But, okay, sure... they're almost all better passers and defenders than Melo. Melo is a better scorer than almost all of them. Different players have different strengths, very few guys are great at everything. So... why did their teams suck if they not only passed, but also defended?

Melo is a better scorer than almost all of them? Yea sure, let's just ignore efficiency since it shouldn't be considered. After all, it just comes down to PPG. Excellent thinking. If you said Melo has more of an offensive reportoire, I may agree but saying he's a better scorer is just plain wrong. Efficiency HAS TO be considered.

All of these guys are nearly perennial playoff players as well, with the exception of Davis. His teams flat out have stunk. Being a good player that does multiple things well doesn't guarantee winning. There's too many variables. Heck,you need some luck too. Shyt happens. Its a tough league. But nearly all of these players are two way players who were capable of making adjustments and providing additional contributions to their teams. Melo simply isn't shooting at the same basket at these guys. Nowhere close.
Nalod
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3/30/2017  2:21 PM
crzymdups wrote:Just out of curiousity.

Do you guys blame Jimmy Butler for the dysfunction in Chicago?

Was it KG's fault the Timberwolves sucked and he didn't win jack until he got traded to Boston and teamed up with two other actual stars in their primes?

Is it Chris Paul's fault the Clippers never made it out of the second round?

Is it Anthony Davis's fault the Pelicans suck?

Was it Barkley's fault the Sixers never won a championship?

Was it Chris Webber's fault the Kings didn't make it past the Lakers?

Just wondering where these other NBA greats who couldn't get over the hump on dysfunctional or even great teams stand in your minds.

I would guess their fans are pointing their fingers at them.
But, at what age do you cut bait and move on? Regardless of whose fault it is, its about the next few years.
BTW, the 54 win team won 37 the next year. Phil didnt' sign on until mid march that year, or 6 weeks left to the season. There was not much to build on. Tyson was not happy, Felton was not starter material, JR was JR, shump either hurt or not fulfilling his potential, etc. Pre Phil stuff.
Had to tear it down. Melo did not have sufficient team around him. For those who don't blame Melo, hate on phil and defend Shump and JR as value players, that's just all wrong. It was not working.
crzymdups
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3/30/2017  2:25 PM
JrZyHuStLa wrote:
crzymdups wrote:
JrZyHuStLa wrote:
crzymdups wrote:Just out of curiousity.

Do you guys blame Jimmy Butler for the dysfunction in Chicago?

Was it KG's fault the Timberwolves sucked and he didn't win jack until he got traded to Boston and teamed up with two other actual stars in their primes?

Is it Chris Paul's fault the Clippers never made it out of the second round?

Is it Anthony Davis's fault the Pelicans suck?

Was it Barkley's fault the Sixers never won a championship?

Was it Chris Webber's fault the Kings didn't make it past the Lakers?

Just wondering where these other NBA greats who couldn't get over the hump on dysfunctional or even great teams stand in your minds.

I looked at this and one thing jumped out.

They're all good to great defensive players.

Your friend Carmelo isn't.

Webber is good to great defensive player? Innnnnnnteresting. I think Webber just spat out his coffee wherever he is and he doesn't even know why.

But, okay, sure... they're almost all better passers and defenders than Melo. Melo is a better scorer than almost all of them. Different players have different strengths, very few guys are great at everything. So... why did their teams suck if they not only passed, but also defended?

Melo is a better scorer than almost all of them? Yea sure, let's just ignore efficiency since it shouldn't be considered. After all, it just comes down to PPG. Excellent thinking. If you said Melo has more of an offensive reportoire, I may agree but saying he's a better scorer is just plain wrong. Efficiency HAS TO be considered.

All of these guys are nearly perennial playoff players as well, with the exception of Davis. His teams flat out have stunk. Being a good player that does multiple things well doesn't guarantee winning. There's too many variables. Heck,you need some luck too. Shyt happens. Its a tough league. But nearly all of these players are two way players who were capable of making adjustments and providing additional contributions to their teams. Melo simply isn't shooting at the same basket at these guys. Nowhere close.

What about the Timberwolves from 2005-2007? They didn't make the playoffs with KG all those years and sank down to 30 wins territory.

2004-5 44-38 missed playoffs
2005-6 33-49 missed playoffs
2006-7 32-50 missed playoffs

Wha happen? KG defended, moved the ball, so much more efficient than Melo! KG's fault?

¿ △ ?
crzymdups
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3/30/2017  2:30 PM
Nalod wrote:
crzymdups wrote:Just out of curiousity.

Do you guys blame Jimmy Butler for the dysfunction in Chicago?

Was it KG's fault the Timberwolves sucked and he didn't win jack until he got traded to Boston and teamed up with two other actual stars in their primes?

Is it Chris Paul's fault the Clippers never made it out of the second round?

Is it Anthony Davis's fault the Pelicans suck?

Was it Barkley's fault the Sixers never won a championship?

Was it Chris Webber's fault the Kings didn't make it past the Lakers?

Just wondering where these other NBA greats who couldn't get over the hump on dysfunctional or even great teams stand in your minds.

I would guess their fans are pointing their fingers at them.
But, at what age do you cut bait and move on? Regardless of whose fault it is, its about the next few years.
BTW, the 54 win team won 37 the next year. Phil didnt' sign on until mid march that year, or 6 weeks left to the season. There was not much to build on. Tyson was not happy, Felton was not starter material, JR was JR, shump either hurt or not fulfilling his potential, etc. Pre Phil stuff.
Had to tear it down. Melo did not have sufficient team around him. For those who don't blame Melo, hate on phil and defend Shump and JR as value players, that's just all wrong. It was not working.

The argument that Melo is too old to be the main guy is a much saner argument. I agree with that one. It's not the one at the start of this thread. The argument at the start of this thread is "Melo doesn't get it" and I've been responding to people saying the Knicks were bad because Melo didn't move the ball.

The 54 win team regressing to 37 wins was two things in my mind - they traded for Bargnani and fired their GM (showing dysfunction behind the scenes that they'd fire a great GM like Grunwald and probably made the Bargnani trade behind his back). And Tyson Chandler broke his leg in the first week of the season and missed the next 30 some odd games, putting them in a huge hole. Once Bargnani went down with injury they started playing better in January. When Tyson came back they started playing much better and finished 16-6.

Melo may have been too old then to carry the team the way he used to. Phil made the decision to sign him to a five year near max deal with a no trade clause after that season. The nearest offer was Chicago offering 4yrs $78M, Phil paid Melo $50M more than Chicago could offer (and another year, and a no trade, plus a 15% trade kicker). It was as bad or worse than the Allan Houston contract.

You want to argue Melo is too old to be a prime time player anymore? I actually 100% agree.

You want to argue that the Knicks could've been a contender this season if Melo moved the ball and it was all Melo's fault the Knicks sucked? I think that argument is complete bull sh!t and I will continue to say so to anyone who makes it.

¿ △ ?
nixluva
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3/30/2017  2:32 PM
crzymdups wrote:
JrZyHuStLa wrote:
crzymdups wrote:
JrZyHuStLa wrote:
crzymdups wrote:Just out of curiousity.

Do you guys blame Jimmy Butler for the dysfunction in Chicago?

Was it KG's fault the Timberwolves sucked and he didn't win jack until he got traded to Boston and teamed up with two other actual stars in their primes?

Is it Chris Paul's fault the Clippers never made it out of the second round?

Is it Anthony Davis's fault the Pelicans suck?

Was it Barkley's fault the Sixers never won a championship?

Was it Chris Webber's fault the Kings didn't make it past the Lakers?

Just wondering where these other NBA greats who couldn't get over the hump on dysfunctional or even great teams stand in your minds.

I looked at this and one thing jumped out.

They're all good to great defensive players.

Your friend Carmelo isn't.

Webber is good to great defensive player? Innnnnnnteresting. I think Webber just spat out his coffee wherever he is and he doesn't even know why.

But, okay, sure... they're almost all better passers and defenders than Melo. Melo is a better scorer than almost all of them. Different players have different strengths, very few guys are great at everything. So... why did their teams suck if they not only passed, but also defended?

Melo is a better scorer than almost all of them? Yea sure, let's just ignore efficiency since it shouldn't be considered. After all, it just comes down to PPG. Excellent thinking. If you said Melo has more of an offensive reportoire, I may agree but saying he's a better scorer is just plain wrong. Efficiency HAS TO be considered.

All of these guys are nearly perennial playoff players as well, with the exception of Davis. His teams flat out have stunk. Being a good player that does multiple things well doesn't guarantee winning. There's too many variables. Heck,you need some luck too. Shyt happens. Its a tough league. But nearly all of these players are two way players who were capable of making adjustments and providing additional contributions to their teams. Melo simply isn't shooting at the same basket at these guys. Nowhere close.

What about the Timberwolves from 2005-2007? They didn't make the playoffs with KG all those years and sank down to 30 wins territory.

2004-5 44-38 missed playoffs
2005-6 33-49 missed playoffs
2006-7 32-50 missed playoffs

Wha happen? KG defended, moved the ball, so much more efficient than Melo! KG's fault?

This just gets silly at a certain point! No one is saying you can just place everything on one player and that the rest of the team doesn't matter. We are saying Melo could do more than he has to make his teams better.

Are you trying to argue that Melo has done all that he could to help his team win games???
JrZyHuStLa
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3/30/2017  2:33 PM    LAST EDITED: 3/30/2017  2:34 PM
crzymdups wrote:
JrZyHuStLa wrote:
crzymdups wrote:
JrZyHuStLa wrote:
crzymdups wrote:Just out of curiousity.

Do you guys blame Jimmy Butler for the dysfunction in Chicago?

Was it KG's fault the Timberwolves sucked and he didn't win jack until he got traded to Boston and teamed up with two other actual stars in their primes?

Is it Chris Paul's fault the Clippers never made it out of the second round?

Is it Anthony Davis's fault the Pelicans suck?

Was it Barkley's fault the Sixers never won a championship?

Was it Chris Webber's fault the Kings didn't make it past the Lakers?

Just wondering where these other NBA greats who couldn't get over the hump on dysfunctional or even great teams stand in your minds.

I looked at this and one thing jumped out.

They're all good to great defensive players.

Your friend Carmelo isn't.

Webber is good to great defensive player? Innnnnnnteresting. I think Webber just spat out his coffee wherever he is and he doesn't even know why.

But, okay, sure... they're almost all better passers and defenders than Melo. Melo is a better scorer than almost all of them. Different players have different strengths, very few guys are great at everything. So... why did their teams suck if they not only passed, but also defended?

Melo is a better scorer than almost all of them? Yea sure, let's just ignore efficiency since it shouldn't be considered. After all, it just comes down to PPG. Excellent thinking. If you said Melo has more of an offensive reportoire, I may agree but saying he's a better scorer is just plain wrong. Efficiency HAS TO be considered.

All of these guys are nearly perennial playoff players as well, with the exception of Davis. His teams flat out have stunk. Being a good player that does multiple things well doesn't guarantee winning. There's too many variables. Heck,you need some luck too. Shyt happens. Its a tough league. But nearly all of these players are two way players who were capable of making adjustments and providing additional contributions to their teams. Melo simply isn't shooting at the same basket at these guys. Nowhere close.

What about the Timberwolves from 2005-2007? They didn't make the playoffs with KG all those years and sank down to 30 wins territory.

2004-5 44-38 missed playoffs
2005-6 33-49 missed playoffs
2006-7 32-50 missed playoffs

Wha happen? KG defended, moved the ball, so much more efficient than Melo! KG's fault?

Again, being a good two way and efficient top gun player on your team doesn't always guarantee playoff appearances. But most of the time it does. KG spent 12 seasons in Minnesota. Let's exclude his rookie year, we can conclude he got his teams into the postseason 8 out of 11 seasons. He picked up an MVP award as well. Not too shabby.

And in terms of fault, yea you CAN say it's his fault, just not 100%. It should never fall on the main player 100%. That's just not realistic. But, a good chunk of failure has to be attributed to the top gun. Why? Because it's the NBA. First place you look to when things aren't going too well are the stars! This is no different than what I'm doing with Melo. The Knicks are a complete joke. We're all looking at Melo for a good chunk of the team's failures! As the centerpiece of the team, it's warranted.

Let me ask you a simple question. Do you take Melo over any of those guys you named?

I sure as hell don't.
Bonn1997
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3/30/2017  2:34 PM    LAST EDITED: 3/30/2017  2:35 PM
nixluva wrote:
crzymdups wrote:
JrZyHuStLa wrote:
crzymdups wrote:
JrZyHuStLa wrote:
crzymdups wrote:Just out of curiousity.

Do you guys blame Jimmy Butler for the dysfunction in Chicago?

Was it KG's fault the Timberwolves sucked and he didn't win jack until he got traded to Boston and teamed up with two other actual stars in their primes?

Is it Chris Paul's fault the Clippers never made it out of the second round?

Is it Anthony Davis's fault the Pelicans suck?

Was it Barkley's fault the Sixers never won a championship?

Was it Chris Webber's fault the Kings didn't make it past the Lakers?

Just wondering where these other NBA greats who couldn't get over the hump on dysfunctional or even great teams stand in your minds.

I looked at this and one thing jumped out.

They're all good to great defensive players.

Your friend Carmelo isn't.

Webber is good to great defensive player? Innnnnnnteresting. I think Webber just spat out his coffee wherever he is and he doesn't even know why.

But, okay, sure... they're almost all better passers and defenders than Melo. Melo is a better scorer than almost all of them. Different players have different strengths, very few guys are great at everything. So... why did their teams suck if they not only passed, but also defended?

Melo is a better scorer than almost all of them? Yea sure, let's just ignore efficiency since it shouldn't be considered. After all, it just comes down to PPG. Excellent thinking. If you said Melo has more of an offensive reportoire, I may agree but saying he's a better scorer is just plain wrong. Efficiency HAS TO be considered.

All of these guys are nearly perennial playoff players as well, with the exception of Davis. His teams flat out have stunk. Being a good player that does multiple things well doesn't guarantee winning. There's too many variables. Heck,you need some luck too. Shyt happens. Its a tough league. But nearly all of these players are two way players who were capable of making adjustments and providing additional contributions to their teams. Melo simply isn't shooting at the same basket at these guys. Nowhere close.

What about the Timberwolves from 2005-2007? They didn't make the playoffs with KG all those years and sank down to 30 wins territory.

2004-5 44-38 missed playoffs
2005-6 33-49 missed playoffs
2006-7 32-50 missed playoffs

Wha happen? KG defended, moved the ball, so much more efficient than Melo! KG's fault?

This just gets silly at a certain point! No one is saying you can just place everything on one player and that the rest of the team doesn't matter. We are saying Melo could do more than he has to make his teams better.

Are you trying to argue that Melo has done all that he could to help his team win games???


I saw you put your comment in big, bold font since Nixluva didn't respond the first time. I'll copy, paste, enlarge, and bold my previous response to your focusing on nothing but team records.

"There's a lot of complexity figuring out why a team underachieves. It's one thing if a team's record comes up as part of a discussion but the success of a team should never be the main way of evaluating a player. If anyone ever says they have nothing to criticize Melo for except for his team's records, they're making a bad argument."
JrZyHuStLa
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3/30/2017  2:37 PM
fishmike wrote:In a few years KP will have to face the responsibility of being a veteran, possibly the face of a franchise and the team's highest paid player. However that is still about 3-4 years away.

The thing that really hurts you with Melo is you know he can play different, he's shown he can play different, he has simply opted to not play different. He might be the most frustrating player to follow.

In 5 or 10 years time, when I think of Carmelo Anthony, thoughts of Stephon Marbury won't be too far behind.

Sad but true.
crzymdups
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3/30/2017  2:39 PM
nixluva wrote:
crzymdups wrote:
JrZyHuStLa wrote:
crzymdups wrote:
JrZyHuStLa wrote:
crzymdups wrote:Just out of curiousity.

Do you guys blame Jimmy Butler for the dysfunction in Chicago?

Was it KG's fault the Timberwolves sucked and he didn't win jack until he got traded to Boston and teamed up with two other actual stars in their primes?

Is it Chris Paul's fault the Clippers never made it out of the second round?

Is it Anthony Davis's fault the Pelicans suck?

Was it Barkley's fault the Sixers never won a championship?

Was it Chris Webber's fault the Kings didn't make it past the Lakers?

Just wondering where these other NBA greats who couldn't get over the hump on dysfunctional or even great teams stand in your minds.

I looked at this and one thing jumped out.

They're all good to great defensive players.

Your friend Carmelo isn't.

Webber is good to great defensive player? Innnnnnnteresting. I think Webber just spat out his coffee wherever he is and he doesn't even know why.

But, okay, sure... they're almost all better passers and defenders than Melo. Melo is a better scorer than almost all of them. Different players have different strengths, very few guys are great at everything. So... why did their teams suck if they not only passed, but also defended?

Melo is a better scorer than almost all of them? Yea sure, let's just ignore efficiency since it shouldn't be considered. After all, it just comes down to PPG. Excellent thinking. If you said Melo has more of an offensive reportoire, I may agree but saying he's a better scorer is just plain wrong. Efficiency HAS TO be considered.

All of these guys are nearly perennial playoff players as well, with the exception of Davis. His teams flat out have stunk. Being a good player that does multiple things well doesn't guarantee winning. There's too many variables. Heck,you need some luck too. Shyt happens. Its a tough league. But nearly all of these players are two way players who were capable of making adjustments and providing additional contributions to their teams. Melo simply isn't shooting at the same basket at these guys. Nowhere close.

What about the Timberwolves from 2005-2007? They didn't make the playoffs with KG all those years and sank down to 30 wins territory.

2004-5 44-38 missed playoffs
2005-6 33-49 missed playoffs
2006-7 32-50 missed playoffs

Wha happen? KG defended, moved the ball, so much more efficient than Melo! KG's fault?

This just gets silly at a certain point! No one is saying you can just place everything on one player and that the rest of the team doesn't matter. We are saying Melo could do more than he has to make his teams better.

Are you trying to argue that Melo has done all that he could to help his team win games???

I asked you several times how many games you thought the Knicks could've won this year if Melo moved the ball and you won't answer it. It's just sad, dude. You can't even take it's argument to its conclusion, because you know how empty it is.

Yes, of course Melo could've done more to help his team win this year. He's also 32 and the player he's always been, degrading some with age. He's not going to completely re-invent his game at the end of his career. Maybe some guys could do it... I can't really think of too many stars who did it though. Have any in mind Melo should have molded his game on?

I think Melo was done a disservice by Phil by having bad fits at coach for what his skillset actually was. Phil invested almost $130M over five years on Melo and then rather than try to win with Melo, he tried to make Melo play a different way than he ever had and to boot, surrounded him with some of the worst supporting casts of his entire career.

Who was the best player Phil brought in outside of KP, who we've all seen is still learning and too young to really be a winning player (look at his shot selection last night, look at his D last night, look at his constant bad fouls all season)?

Was it Rolo? Was it Rose? Rose didn't make the playoffs in Chicago the year before he got here and Rolo went to Chicago where he probably won't make the playoffs this year. He traded Tyson and Felton for nothing. Shumper and JR for nothing.

Yet somehow the answer to the Knicks problem is Melo didn't move the ball enough.

¿ △ ?
Cartman718
Posts: 29069
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3/30/2017  2:40 PM
meloshouldgo wrote:
Andrew wrote:http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/19035736/carmelo-anthony-accepting-reduced-role-new-york-knicks-sees-writing-wall

Yes! Great job accepting your role!

"I see the writing on the wall. I see what it is," Anthony said late Wednesday night. "I see what they're trying to do, and it's just me accepting that. That's what puts me at peace. Just knowing and understanding how things work. I'm at peace with that."

Nooooo! The Knicks never wanted you to go out there and try to score 30 or 40 a night!

"I don't think me going out there, trying to score 30 and 40 every night and playing that way, is going to help them out at this point."

All that talent coupled with equal lack of smarts and a sullen sulking childlike need for attention. Always been a bad combination. He doesn't see anything no matter what he says. He has bedn extremely consistent in doing what he wants and getting his way.

The man is a legend .... at least in his own mind.

THE INCREDIBLE SULK - our very own super hero.

Look at this part....
trying to score 30 and 40 every night and playing that way
when did he ever score 30 and 40 every night of his entire career?

Nixluva is posting triangle screen grabs, even when nobody asks - Fishmike. LOL So are we going to reference that thread like the bible now? "The thread of Wroten Page 14 post 9" - EnySpree
crzymdups
Posts: 52018
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3/30/2017  2:44 PM
JrZyHuStLa wrote:
crzymdups wrote:
JrZyHuStLa wrote:
crzymdups wrote:
JrZyHuStLa wrote:
crzymdups wrote:Just out of curiousity.

Do you guys blame Jimmy Butler for the dysfunction in Chicago?

Was it KG's fault the Timberwolves sucked and he didn't win jack until he got traded to Boston and teamed up with two other actual stars in their primes?

Is it Chris Paul's fault the Clippers never made it out of the second round?

Is it Anthony Davis's fault the Pelicans suck?

Was it Barkley's fault the Sixers never won a championship?

Was it Chris Webber's fault the Kings didn't make it past the Lakers?

Just wondering where these other NBA greats who couldn't get over the hump on dysfunctional or even great teams stand in your minds.

I looked at this and one thing jumped out.

They're all good to great defensive players.

Your friend Carmelo isn't.

Webber is good to great defensive player? Innnnnnnteresting. I think Webber just spat out his coffee wherever he is and he doesn't even know why.

But, okay, sure... they're almost all better passers and defenders than Melo. Melo is a better scorer than almost all of them. Different players have different strengths, very few guys are great at everything. So... why did their teams suck if they not only passed, but also defended?

Melo is a better scorer than almost all of them? Yea sure, let's just ignore efficiency since it shouldn't be considered. After all, it just comes down to PPG. Excellent thinking. If you said Melo has more of an offensive reportoire, I may agree but saying he's a better scorer is just plain wrong. Efficiency HAS TO be considered.

All of these guys are nearly perennial playoff players as well, with the exception of Davis. His teams flat out have stunk. Being a good player that does multiple things well doesn't guarantee winning. There's too many variables. Heck,you need some luck too. Shyt happens. Its a tough league. But nearly all of these players are two way players who were capable of making adjustments and providing additional contributions to their teams. Melo simply isn't shooting at the same basket at these guys. Nowhere close.

What about the Timberwolves from 2005-2007? They didn't make the playoffs with KG all those years and sank down to 30 wins territory.

2004-5 44-38 missed playoffs
2005-6 33-49 missed playoffs
2006-7 32-50 missed playoffs

Wha happen? KG defended, moved the ball, so much more efficient than Melo! KG's fault?

Again, being a good two way and efficient top gun player on your team doesn't always guarantee playoff appearances. But most of the time it does. KG spent 12 seasons in Minnesota. Let's exclude his rookie year, we can conclude he got his teams into the postseason 8 out of 11 seasons. He picked up an MVP award as well. Not too shabby.

And in terms of fault, yea you CAN say it's his fault, just not 100%. It should never fall on the main player 100%. That's just not realistic. But, a good chunk of failure has to be attributed to the top gun. Why? Because it's the NBA. First place you look to when things aren't going too well are the stars! This is no different than what I'm doing with Melo. The Knicks are a complete joke. We're all looking at Melo for a good chunk of the team's failures! As the centerpiece of the team, it's warranted.

Let me ask you a simple question. Do you take Melo over any of those guys you named?

I sure as hell don't.

No, I don't either. Well, I think Melo in his prime is better than Butler in his prime. Now? No way. But Melo made the playoffs the first ten years of his career, too. 10 out of 11 when Phil came on, since Phil came in at the end of a season where they missed the playoffs by one game.

My point with that is there is more to a team's success than one guy. There are plenty examples of teams around the league where a team isn't built right for a star to succeed. See Anthony Davis, etc.

There are also plenty of examples where a team is seemingly built really well for a star to succeed CP3 in LA, Webber in Sacramento... those teams still failed. Because a lot of times basketball comes down to who has two of the top five players in the league and that's it. Shaq/Kobe, Shaq/Wade, Lebron/Wade, Lebron/Kyrie, Steph/Dray/Klay, Duncan/Parker, Duncan/Kawhi... there are exceptions like the Dallas Mavs and the Detroit Pistons... but they're quite rare.

¿ △ ?
crzymdups
Posts: 52018
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3/30/2017  2:45 PM
Bonn1997 wrote:
nixluva wrote:
crzymdups wrote:
JrZyHuStLa wrote:
crzymdups wrote:
JrZyHuStLa wrote:
crzymdups wrote:Just out of curiousity.

Do you guys blame Jimmy Butler for the dysfunction in Chicago?

Was it KG's fault the Timberwolves sucked and he didn't win jack until he got traded to Boston and teamed up with two other actual stars in their primes?

Is it Chris Paul's fault the Clippers never made it out of the second round?

Is it Anthony Davis's fault the Pelicans suck?

Was it Barkley's fault the Sixers never won a championship?

Was it Chris Webber's fault the Kings didn't make it past the Lakers?

Just wondering where these other NBA greats who couldn't get over the hump on dysfunctional or even great teams stand in your minds.

I looked at this and one thing jumped out.

They're all good to great defensive players.

Your friend Carmelo isn't.

Webber is good to great defensive player? Innnnnnnteresting. I think Webber just spat out his coffee wherever he is and he doesn't even know why.

But, okay, sure... they're almost all better passers and defenders than Melo. Melo is a better scorer than almost all of them. Different players have different strengths, very few guys are great at everything. So... why did their teams suck if they not only passed, but also defended?

Melo is a better scorer than almost all of them? Yea sure, let's just ignore efficiency since it shouldn't be considered. After all, it just comes down to PPG. Excellent thinking. If you said Melo has more of an offensive reportoire, I may agree but saying he's a better scorer is just plain wrong. Efficiency HAS TO be considered.

All of these guys are nearly perennial playoff players as well, with the exception of Davis. His teams flat out have stunk. Being a good player that does multiple things well doesn't guarantee winning. There's too many variables. Heck,you need some luck too. Shyt happens. Its a tough league. But nearly all of these players are two way players who were capable of making adjustments and providing additional contributions to their teams. Melo simply isn't shooting at the same basket at these guys. Nowhere close.

What about the Timberwolves from 2005-2007? They didn't make the playoffs with KG all those years and sank down to 30 wins territory.

2004-5 44-38 missed playoffs
2005-6 33-49 missed playoffs
2006-7 32-50 missed playoffs

Wha happen? KG defended, moved the ball, so much more efficient than Melo! KG's fault?

This just gets silly at a certain point! No one is saying you can just place everything on one player and that the rest of the team doesn't matter. We are saying Melo could do more than he has to make his teams better.

Are you trying to argue that Melo has done all that he could to help his team win games???


I saw you put your comment in big, bold font since Nixluva didn't respond the first time. I'll copy, paste, enlarge, and bold my previous response to your focusing on nothing but team records.

"There's a lot of complexity figuring out why a team underachieves. It's one thing if a team's record comes up as part of a discussion but the success of a team should never be the main way of evaluating a player. If anyone ever says they have nothing to criticize Melo for except for his team's records, they're making a bad argument."

Sorry, I missed that response.

I agree completely.

The arguments here that are pissing me off are the ones seemingly arguing that the Knicks would be some kind of contender this year if Melo had moved the ball. Which are either completely delusional about that state of this roster and team... or just disingenuous... or just not very smart.

My point with bringing up other players failing who are as good or better than Melo... it's a lot more complicated on how just the one guy plays.

¿ △ ?
nixluva
Posts: 56258
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Member: #758
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3/30/2017  2:46 PM
crzymdups wrote:
nixluva wrote:
crzymdups wrote:
JrZyHuStLa wrote:
crzymdups wrote:
JrZyHuStLa wrote:
crzymdups wrote:Just out of curiousity.

Do you guys blame Jimmy Butler for the dysfunction in Chicago?

Was it KG's fault the Timberwolves sucked and he didn't win jack until he got traded to Boston and teamed up with two other actual stars in their primes?

Is it Chris Paul's fault the Clippers never made it out of the second round?

Is it Anthony Davis's fault the Pelicans suck?

Was it Barkley's fault the Sixers never won a championship?

Was it Chris Webber's fault the Kings didn't make it past the Lakers?

Just wondering where these other NBA greats who couldn't get over the hump on dysfunctional or even great teams stand in your minds.

I looked at this and one thing jumped out.

They're all good to great defensive players.

Your friend Carmelo isn't.

Webber is good to great defensive player? Innnnnnnteresting. I think Webber just spat out his coffee wherever he is and he doesn't even know why.

But, okay, sure... they're almost all better passers and defenders than Melo. Melo is a better scorer than almost all of them. Different players have different strengths, very few guys are great at everything. So... why did their teams suck if they not only passed, but also defended?

Melo is a better scorer than almost all of them? Yea sure, let's just ignore efficiency since it shouldn't be considered. After all, it just comes down to PPG. Excellent thinking. If you said Melo has more of an offensive reportoire, I may agree but saying he's a better scorer is just plain wrong. Efficiency HAS TO be considered.

All of these guys are nearly perennial playoff players as well, with the exception of Davis. His teams flat out have stunk. Being a good player that does multiple things well doesn't guarantee winning. There's too many variables. Heck,you need some luck too. Shyt happens. Its a tough league. But nearly all of these players are two way players who were capable of making adjustments and providing additional contributions to their teams. Melo simply isn't shooting at the same basket at these guys. Nowhere close.

What about the Timberwolves from 2005-2007? They didn't make the playoffs with KG all those years and sank down to 30 wins territory.

2004-5 44-38 missed playoffs
2005-6 33-49 missed playoffs
2006-7 32-50 missed playoffs

Wha happen? KG defended, moved the ball, so much more efficient than Melo! KG's fault?

This just gets silly at a certain point! No one is saying you can just place everything on one player and that the rest of the team doesn't matter. We are saying Melo could do more than he has to make his teams better.

Are you trying to argue that Melo has done all that he could to help his team win games???

I asked you several times how many games you thought the Knicks could've won this year if Melo moved the ball and you won't answer it. It's just sad, dude. You can't even take it's argument to its conclusion, because you know how empty it is.

Yes, of course Melo could've done more to help his team win this year. He's also 32 and the player he's always been, degrading some with age. He's not going to completely re-invent his game at the end of his career. Maybe some guys could do it... I can't really think of too many stars who did it though. Have any in mind Melo should have molded his game on?

I think Melo was done a disservice by Phil by having bad fits at coach for what his skillset actually was. Phil invested almost $130M over five years on Melo and then rather than try to win with Melo, he tried to make Melo play a different way than he ever had and to boot, surrounded him with some of the worst supporting casts of his entire career.

Who was the best player Phil brought in outside of KP, who we've all seen is still learning and too young to really be a winning player (look at his shot selection last night, look at his D last night, look at his constant bad fouls all season)?

Was it Rolo? Was it Rose? Rose didn't make the playoffs in Chicago the year before he got here and Rolo went to Chicago where he probably won't make the playoffs this year. He traded Tyson and Felton for nothing. Shumper and JR for nothing.

Yet somehow the answer to the Knicks problem is Melo didn't move the ball enough.


First off your question is STUPID! It's not just what Melo did but also Noah and Rose, CLee, KP etc. But when talking about MELO I believe that he didn't do everything he could've done to help the team win games. I have some equal disappointment for Rose. The point tho is that Melo is the best player on the team and he leaves a TON of opportunity on the floor. When you touch the ball as much as Melo does you have to be doing more than just looking for your own points most of the time.

We lost at least 16 games by 5 or less. So there's ample opportunity for wins in that group of losses. I wouldn't say ONLY Melo is to blame but I will say that Melo hasn't been part of the solution to getting more wins. He could've done more than he did on Defense as well as Offense. If Melo was doing everything within his power to help this team then NO ONE would be blaming him. We can all see that he's not doing many of the things he should be doing. We know he can score but that's not everything we need from him.
crzymdups
Posts: 52018
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Member: #671
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3/30/2017  2:56 PM
nixluva wrote:
crzymdups wrote:
nixluva wrote:
crzymdups wrote:
JrZyHuStLa wrote:
crzymdups wrote:
JrZyHuStLa wrote:
crzymdups wrote:Just out of curiousity.

Do you guys blame Jimmy Butler for the dysfunction in Chicago?

Was it KG's fault the Timberwolves sucked and he didn't win jack until he got traded to Boston and teamed up with two other actual stars in their primes?

Is it Chris Paul's fault the Clippers never made it out of the second round?

Is it Anthony Davis's fault the Pelicans suck?

Was it Barkley's fault the Sixers never won a championship?

Was it Chris Webber's fault the Kings didn't make it past the Lakers?

Just wondering where these other NBA greats who couldn't get over the hump on dysfunctional or even great teams stand in your minds.

I looked at this and one thing jumped out.

They're all good to great defensive players.

Your friend Carmelo isn't.

Webber is good to great defensive player? Innnnnnnteresting. I think Webber just spat out his coffee wherever he is and he doesn't even know why.

But, okay, sure... they're almost all better passers and defenders than Melo. Melo is a better scorer than almost all of them. Different players have different strengths, very few guys are great at everything. So... why did their teams suck if they not only passed, but also defended?

Melo is a better scorer than almost all of them? Yea sure, let's just ignore efficiency since it shouldn't be considered. After all, it just comes down to PPG. Excellent thinking. If you said Melo has more of an offensive reportoire, I may agree but saying he's a better scorer is just plain wrong. Efficiency HAS TO be considered.

All of these guys are nearly perennial playoff players as well, with the exception of Davis. His teams flat out have stunk. Being a good player that does multiple things well doesn't guarantee winning. There's too many variables. Heck,you need some luck too. Shyt happens. Its a tough league. But nearly all of these players are two way players who were capable of making adjustments and providing additional contributions to their teams. Melo simply isn't shooting at the same basket at these guys. Nowhere close.

What about the Timberwolves from 2005-2007? They didn't make the playoffs with KG all those years and sank down to 30 wins territory.

2004-5 44-38 missed playoffs
2005-6 33-49 missed playoffs
2006-7 32-50 missed playoffs

Wha happen? KG defended, moved the ball, so much more efficient than Melo! KG's fault?

This just gets silly at a certain point! No one is saying you can just place everything on one player and that the rest of the team doesn't matter. We are saying Melo could do more than he has to make his teams better.

Are you trying to argue that Melo has done all that he could to help his team win games???

I asked you several times how many games you thought the Knicks could've won this year if Melo moved the ball and you won't answer it. It's just sad, dude. You can't even take it's argument to its conclusion, because you know how empty it is.

Yes, of course Melo could've done more to help his team win this year. He's also 32 and the player he's always been, degrading some with age. He's not going to completely re-invent his game at the end of his career. Maybe some guys could do it... I can't really think of too many stars who did it though. Have any in mind Melo should have molded his game on?

I think Melo was done a disservice by Phil by having bad fits at coach for what his skillset actually was. Phil invested almost $130M over five years on Melo and then rather than try to win with Melo, he tried to make Melo play a different way than he ever had and to boot, surrounded him with some of the worst supporting casts of his entire career.

Who was the best player Phil brought in outside of KP, who we've all seen is still learning and too young to really be a winning player (look at his shot selection last night, look at his D last night, look at his constant bad fouls all season)?

Was it Rolo? Was it Rose? Rose didn't make the playoffs in Chicago the year before he got here and Rolo went to Chicago where he probably won't make the playoffs this year. He traded Tyson and Felton for nothing. Shumper and JR for nothing.

Yet somehow the answer to the Knicks problem is Melo didn't move the ball enough.


First off your question is STUPID! It's not just what Melo did but also Noah and Rose, CLee, KP etc. But when talking about MELO I believe that he didn't do everything he could've done to help the team win games. I have some equal disappointment for Rose. The point tho is that Melo is the best player on the team and he leaves a TON of opportunity on the floor. When you touch the ball as much as Melo does you have to be doing more than just looking for your own points most of the time.

We lost at least 16 games by 5 or less. So there's ample opportunity for wins in that group of losses. I wouldn't say ONLY Melo is to blame but I will say that Melo hasn't been part of the solution to getting more wins. He could've done more than he did on Defense as well as Offense. If Melo was doing everything within his power to help this team then NO ONE would be blaming him. We can all see that he's not doing many of the things he should be doing. We know he can score but that's not everything we need from him.

I love that you can't answer the question. Case closed. You know your argument is complete horse ****. You just wanna bitch about the Knicks, so you're blaming it on Melo. Deep down you know if Melo "left it all out the floor" and did "everything within his power to help this team win" they would win maybe five or eight more games than they have.

They wouldn't be a contender.

So let me get this straight - you're saying you'd rather have Melo drag this team to the eight spot in the playoffs?

I'd frankly rather get the fifth pick or higher in the draft, because I'm not delusional about what this team is. Rose and Melo were not dragging this half roster to the Finals. If you're sitting here blaming Melo for the state of the team, I have to conclude you don't really have a good understanding of the talent on other teams in the NBA.

This team would not be contending if Melo moved the ball. Stop blaming Melo for them sucking. Melo didn't hit Noah in the knee with a lead pipe. Melo didn't make Noah old and then give him a $72M contract. Melo didn't make Rose half the player he used to be. Melo didn't tell KP to make dumb fouls and have poor shot selection. Melo didn't tell the coach to change offenses and defenses multiple times throughout the year.

I know it's comforting to be able to blame Melo for everything, but really you should be embarrassed about this tactic, man. It's just sad. It's time to rebuild. Phil built a roster that might've been able to win a championship in 2010. The problem is he built it in 2017. That's the reason the Knicks suck.

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