djsunyc wrote:after hundreds of email requests, i have decided to chime in on this :)

this is as impartial a review i can make when it comes to how i perceive phil and his tenure so far. i will ramble a bit so bear with me...

i think porzingis is as good a prospect as you can get in the lottery. does that mean he will be a superstar? no. but he has the potential to be one. he could easily just end up being as good as bosh was in his miami days - a high level 3rd wheel but that's still a good player.

many of us want our players to be something they are not. and when the team is not a good one, those players values become even more inflated. to relate that to your squad, when you sit back and evaluate players like hernangomez, baker, kuz and holliday, i think you have to really look at their cons more than their pros to really figure out where they fit in today's nba. i think hernangomez, kuz and holliday can be solid 15-20 min bench players for a good team. i mean a good team needs role players and bench role players are important but none of them show the skill and defense to be legit starters. kuz is 27 so he is a finished product. holliday i think can hit the 3 and play some defense but for him to start, he would have to be your worst starter surrounded by 4 potential all star type players to win. hernangomez has shown rebounding skill but overall, he is too slowfooted in today's nba and will get destroyed by starting guards. teams would would blitz pick n rolls all day and score easy on him. therefore he doesn't project to be a starter but he would be a serviceable backup big. imho, ron baker is a fringe nba player and if he's getting 15-20 mins a night, your team is a really bad one. look at backup pg's on bad teams - dj augustin, jameer nelson, even the guy from philly - they are all better than him and those teams are terrible.

my point is that many fans over value players on their teams that just aren't that great. we constantly think backups could start but that's just not the case. i'm speaking from experience as i've overvalued players on the raptors but not until we started winning do you really know how a player can slot into that environment.

imho, phil does not know how to build a basketball team. chemistry, cohesion, culture and talent - all things he has failed in bringing to the knicks. he spent 2 years trying to implement an archaic system (yes it's archaic b/c you need top 5 players to run it). if it's a quality system, then you at least would have chemistry and cohesion even if the wins may not be there. but the knicks did not have that. he then thought adding rose to a team with melo and having a center like noah would expedite wins - again, another fail.

in today's nba, you need guards/wings (and a pg) that can not only score well but also distribute. at the very best, rose is a scorer but not a distributer. adding that to melo was never going to work. melo has won in this league before (and my definition of won is over .500 and making playoffs consistently) - and the teams he's won with included a distributing pg/leader. and in phil's tenure, he has not provided one. he did not recognize melo is a scorer and that's it. he needs to be the recipient of guards passes, not the initiator. in fact, his love for the triangle actually devalues the importance of a pg which is the complete opposite direction the nba is going today.

he does have a big that can stretch it out which does follow nba trends in porzingis but not bringing in guards that fit today's nba is the #1 reason why the knicks haven't won. there is absolutely zero evidence he knows how to put together a roster...and that's the biggest argument against him.

melo - you may not like him as a player but publicly, he has been professional and he has not thrown management under the bus as far as i can tell. but phil tweeting like he did shows that the culture of the team is the same as it's always been. everyone out for themselves. he didn't change anything.

what he's done that's different is that he hasn't traded future firsts - which for the knicks is amazing. but using that to laud him is also a bit shortsighted as you're only comparing him to past knicks gm's instead of comparing him to his peers around the league.

overall, i think he's done a bad job. the biggest issue to me is that i don't think he knows how to build a team in today's nba. but by not being 100% reckless, he could benefit or get lucky (and every gm needs luck) via the draft. time will tell but imho, i would cut bait with not only melo but phil and hire a no-name guy from a successful organization. ego in the front office does not work imho.

sorry for the ramble. now back to the politics thread :)

This is a good post. Thanks for your perspective.

One thing about Phil not trading picks - because of previous admins trading the 2014 and 2016 picks, he could not actually trade the 2015 or 2017 picks before draft night itself... so really he was limited in trading first round picks by previous admins. He couldn't trade any pick before 2018 - and I seem to remember a few stories that pick was mentioned (trade rumors for Teague at some point?). He also supposedly was shopping the 4th pick on draft night in 2015 to the Celtics and the Jazz - he gets full credit for drafting KP, but imho people overblow this idea that he hasn't traded future picks. He hasn't really been able to. No GM in 2014 was going to trade for a 2018 pick, they know they might not be around to use it.

crzymdups wrote:

fishmike wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

fishmike wrote:We will see what the end game is. Part of the problem is we dont know what conversations have taken place.

With our limited visibility it sure seems that Phil is being a douche. Why not just work to get him out of here? Keep it under the table? How does this possibly help?

Now the flip side is if Phil asked Melo to focus more on leading, playing defense, sharing the ball, setting those tones than Melo's play this year has been a straight up F-U to Phil. If thats the case it *still* doesnt make sense for Phil to trash him but I certainly understand the frustration.

As far as FAs, I am not convinced of Melo's respect around the league. I think his peers see him for what he is, a great scorer and a good guy but not the guy who is going to battle and take your team to anywhere near elite. Melo is a power hitter who strikes out 200 times a year. His overall numbers look good but his HRs and RBIs come in bunches and dont really reflect his day to day play, which is wildly inconsistent.

People here are WAY to focused on blame. Blaming Phil, blaming Melo. Blame accomplishes nothing but to justify one party in doing nothing about a situation. We all know Melo's flaws and they are not improving, they are worsening. Are we going to be an elite team with Melo as a centerpiece? Are we going to be a good team with Melo as a centerpiece? The teams we are talking about him joining already have 2-3 elite players in the league. We have none. KP is a wonderful prospect, but he is not yet an elite NBA player. Finally the last and most important question is if we are rebuilding this roster does having Melo on the squad help or hurt? When you consider how the offense stops with him on the floor and how the young players under his wing lean on him I think having him here hurts. These guys need to take their lumps. I am much more comfortable with Noah and Lee's veteran leadership than Melo's at this point.

Phil was very complimentary publicly regarding Melo. The telling quote was when he said Melo is one of the NBA's elite scorers, but still has another level he can take it to. Remember that? I suspect Phil spelled it out for him, and Melo went on being Melo and Phil is pissed and sick of it.

Neither are right. All that matters is whats best for the Knicks and Phil has drafted well and scouted well and signed good players. I get the early trades were not good, but neither were Tyson/JR/Shump and all got contracts right after the Knicks that nobody would want, so Is hard to sell Phil's failure to get great assets back when what went out was pretty bad also.

The focus has become blame because Phil has scapegoated Melo. Last season the focus was Fisher because Phil scapegoated Fisher. Phil creates the focus. That's what I'm objecting to.

Otherwise, I mostly agree with what you're saying.

Though the guys saying FAs go where the most money is - LaMarcus Aldridge didn't meet with the Knicks, neither did Durant - they took the same or less than the Knicks could've offered. They didn't want to meet with the Knicks. The organization has a lack of respect around the sport, because it's always a circus, whether it's with Isiah, Glen and Woody hiding in a hotel room so they don't get served with an offer sheet from Houston on Lin, Derek Fisher getting in fisticuffs for dating an active player's wife, and now Phil Jackson making the Melodrama messy and public. It's just a bad look. You can say that other teams do this stuff and don't get as much scrutiny because it's not NYC... but I dunno... I think there is something dysfunctional to the core in this organization - I'm sure it starts with Dolan and lack of accountability throughout the org.

those guys didnt meet with dozens of other teams with cap space either. Both have made huge money in the NBA and wanted ideal team situations. Those guys really have no relevence to our situation. That being said Noah, Kuz and Lee all had other options and did choose the Knicks.

There seems to be some sentiment here upsetting people that Phil isnt responsible for this. Of course he is. But there is also a lack of perspective on what he was suppossed to accomplish as well and the feasiblity of that.

Knicks were a 37 win team with Melo, Tyson, Amare, Shump and who else? He HAD to resign Melo, I dont think anyone here can debate that. So now Phil has two jobs to accomplish. Build a base of young talent as we had none, and add players that can get Melo back to the playoffs without compromising the future.

Does anyone disagree?

Was accomplishing those two goals realistic?

To be fair to Phil both teams last two years had promising starts before being derailed.

Yes Phil is being a douche and this breakup could be handled better. But unlike Isiah the moves to get us back into the playoffs wont set us back a decade. Considering what we had, what we tried to do and what we have now I am fine with Phil's time here. Sure it could have been better, but when I look at the roster then there just were not a lot of options to accomplish those two goals aside from landing a top tier FA and is that realistic? No top FA has ever signed with any team because they admire the GM. To suggest thats part of why Phil was brought here is not a reality based argument.

I wasn't the one making it - but plenty of guys on here and in the media talked about it and how important it was to have Phil here for that. I do think Riley convinced Lebron to go to Miami, so it happens sometimes.

But that's not what I need from my GM.

But a big part of what I was excited about with Phil was the potential for the instillation of a culture, even if it wasn't necessarily the Triangle itself, a culture of winning and accountability and defense and playing the right way, for lack of a better term. That hasn't happened. I consider that Phil's biggest failure. I think Fisher started them on that path, but obviously the Matt Barnes thing blew up too much for him to stay.

If Phil is blaming Melo for his inability to instill the culture he wants... that seems like a cop out. Especially because last season he literally blamed Fisher for not being able to instill the culture he wanted - remember his little note about wanting a "transformative coach" instead of a "transactional coach"? And I don't disagree... unfortunately, I think Fisher was pretty close to that other than the Barnes thing.

Anyway, we'll see where it goes from here. I'm mainly looking forward to getting some good young players in the draft. I hope Dolan and Phil look at people's patience with the Mets and Yankees rebuilds and realize Knicks fans would be fine to get some exciting young players in here and build the right way for the first time in 30 years.

I think when you look at this a GM cant change the culture without getting rid of the players that dont subscribe. Phil preached defense and system basketball. That culture isnt going to happen with Melo here and his quest to rise in the scoring ranks. That seems like Melo-blame and its not meant to be. I still like him a lot as a player and I regret we had him and were only able to capitalize with one really good year. Amazingly if you want to pick one moment when things became impossible it was the Bargs trade. Killed our playoff chances with Melo. Killed our rebuilding costing us a chance at some decent players in that draft as well. Its amazing.

crzymdups wrote:

fishmike wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

fishmike wrote:We will see what the end game is. Part of the problem is we dont know what conversations have taken place.

With our limited visibility it sure seems that Phil is being a douche. Why not just work to get him out of here? Keep it under the table? How does this possibly help?

Now the flip side is if Phil asked Melo to focus more on leading, playing defense, sharing the ball, setting those tones than Melo's play this year has been a straight up F-U to Phil. If thats the case it *still* doesnt make sense for Phil to trash him but I certainly understand the frustration.

As far as FAs, I am not convinced of Melo's respect around the league. I think his peers see him for what he is, a great scorer and a good guy but not the guy who is going to battle and take your team to anywhere near elite. Melo is a power hitter who strikes out 200 times a year. His overall numbers look good but his HRs and RBIs come in bunches and dont really reflect his day to day play, which is wildly inconsistent.

People here are WAY to focused on blame. Blaming Phil, blaming Melo. Blame accomplishes nothing but to justify one party in doing nothing about a situation. We all know Melo's flaws and they are not improving, they are worsening. Are we going to be an elite team with Melo as a centerpiece? Are we going to be a good team with Melo as a centerpiece? The teams we are talking about him joining already have 2-3 elite players in the league. We have none. KP is a wonderful prospect, but he is not yet an elite NBA player. Finally the last and most important question is if we are rebuilding this roster does having Melo on the squad help or hurt? When you consider how the offense stops with him on the floor and how the young players under his wing lean on him I think having him here hurts. These guys need to take their lumps. I am much more comfortable with Noah and Lee's veteran leadership than Melo's at this point.

Phil was very complimentary publicly regarding Melo. The telling quote was when he said Melo is one of the NBA's elite scorers, but still has another level he can take it to. Remember that? I suspect Phil spelled it out for him, and Melo went on being Melo and Phil is pissed and sick of it.

Neither are right. All that matters is whats best for the Knicks and Phil has drafted well and scouted well and signed good players. I get the early trades were not good, but neither were Tyson/JR/Shump and all got contracts right after the Knicks that nobody would want, so Is hard to sell Phil's failure to get great assets back when what went out was pretty bad also.

The focus has become blame because Phil has scapegoated Melo. Last season the focus was Fisher because Phil scapegoated Fisher. Phil creates the focus. That's what I'm objecting to.

Otherwise, I mostly agree with what you're saying.

Though the guys saying FAs go where the most money is - LaMarcus Aldridge didn't meet with the Knicks, neither did Durant - they took the same or less than the Knicks could've offered. They didn't want to meet with the Knicks. The organization has a lack of respect around the sport, because it's always a circus, whether it's with Isiah, Glen and Woody hiding in a hotel room so they don't get served with an offer sheet from Houston on Lin, Derek Fisher getting in fisticuffs for dating an active player's wife, and now Phil Jackson making the Melodrama messy and public. It's just a bad look. You can say that other teams do this stuff and don't get as much scrutiny because it's not NYC... but I dunno... I think there is something dysfunctional to the core in this organization - I'm sure it starts with Dolan and lack of accountability throughout the org.

those guys didnt meet with dozens of other teams with cap space either. Both have made huge money in the NBA and wanted ideal team situations. Those guys really have no relevence to our situation. That being said Noah, Kuz and Lee all had other options and did choose the Knicks.

There seems to be some sentiment here upsetting people that Phil isnt responsible for this. Of course he is. But there is also a lack of perspective on what he was suppossed to accomplish as well and the feasiblity of that.

Knicks were a 37 win team with Melo, Tyson, Amare, Shump and who else? He HAD to resign Melo, I dont think anyone here can debate that. So now Phil has two jobs to accomplish. Build a base of young talent as we had none, and add players that can get Melo back to the playoffs without compromising the future.

Does anyone disagree?

Was accomplishing those two goals realistic?

To be fair to Phil both teams last two years had promising starts before being derailed.

Yes Phil is being a douche and this breakup could be handled better. But unlike Isiah the moves to get us back into the playoffs wont set us back a decade. Considering what we had, what we tried to do and what we have now I am fine with Phil's time here. Sure it could have been better, but when I look at the roster then there just were not a lot of options to accomplish those two goals aside from landing a top tier FA and is that realistic? No top FA has ever signed with any team because they admire the GM. To suggest thats part of why Phil was brought here is not a reality based argument.

I wasn't the one making it - but plenty of guys on here and in the media talked about it and how important it was to have Phil here for that. I do think Riley convinced Lebron to go to Miami, so it happens sometimes.

But that's not what I need from my GM.

But a big part of what I was excited about with Phil was the potential for the instillation of a culture, even if it wasn't necessarily the Triangle itself, a culture of winning and accountability and defense and playing the right way, for lack of a better term. That hasn't happened. I consider that Phil's biggest failure. I think Fisher started them on that path, but obviously the Matt Barnes thing blew up too much for him to stay.

If Phil is blaming Melo for his inability to instill the culture he wants... that seems like a cop out. Especially because last season he literally blamed Fisher for not being able to instill the culture he wanted - remember his little note about wanting a "transformative coach" instead of a "transactional coach"? And I don't disagree... unfortunately, I think Fisher was pretty close to that other than the Barnes thing.

Anyway, we'll see where it goes from here. I'm mainly looking forward to getting some good young players in the draft. I hope Dolan and Phil look at people's patience with the Mets and Yankees rebuilds and realize Knicks fans would be fine to get some exciting young players in here and build the right way for the first time in 30 years.

You make very good points on what many are missing about Phil. One thing to note is that Phil has never brought in culture to any of his teams. Most have been filled with controversy and full of head games. Some even having players at each others throats. Ie. Shaq and Kobe. He likes that for some reason. Definately has not worked here. He also had 3 of the best players of all time. And a couple of others that are probably top 50. So it was easy for him to bring in the most important type of culture..."Winning Culture". Also, many on here try to leave out the fact the Lakers and Bulls with Kobe were not exactly a share the ball type of offense. MJ and Kobe both were heavy Iso players. And needless to say, Kobe was a high volume shooter. Not like Phil had them playing the Harvard System of the 80's. Phil brought no special team culture to those teams. He just had Kobe and MJ to fix any challenges they may have had.

CrushAlot wrote:

Multiple prominent agents said on Tuesday afternoon that the way Jackson has handled Anthony would turn off their clients and others to the idea of signing with Jackson’s Knicks.

http://www.espn.com/blog/new-york-knicks/post/_/id/66137/phil-jacksons-treatment-of-carmelo-anthony-is-hurting-the-teams-chances-in-free-agency

So Phil has made Melo want to stay with the Knicks even more, and driven away other free agents. A masterpiece.

crzymdups wrote:LOL - Woj report, the way Phil Jackson has handled this is steeling Melo's resolve to stay with Knicks.

Well played, Phil.

Tweet was deleted or there was problem with the URL:

https://twitter.com/TheVertical/status/829433773708214272

Too early for a who last longer in NY Poll Melo or Phil??..Too early???

crzymdups wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

Multiple prominent agents said on Tuesday afternoon that the way Jackson has handled Anthony would turn off their clients and others to the idea of signing with Jackson’s Knicks.

http://www.espn.com/blog/new-york-knicks/post/_/id/66137/phil-jacksons-treatment-of-carmelo-anthony-is-hurting-the-teams-chances-in-free-agency

So Phil has made Melo want to stay with the Knicks even more, and driven away other free agents. A masterpiece.

smackeddog wrote:

holfresh wrote:Phil's legacy will take a big hit after this job...More because of the way he has handled the Melo situation than his bad job as President of Basketball Operations...

It will depend on what he gets for Melo and rose and who he drafts. If he gets some assets for those two and gets a great pick he'll have done a good job

Bro, he tried to throw Melo under the bus to force a trade and he got exposed..He gambled and lost..Melo played it well..It's all over the sports wires...If Melo doesn't agree to leave, Phil is done...I don't see how he recovers from the current onslaught...No way he shows his face tonight at the Garden...

SAS said they booed Phil at the Garden...

Chandler wrote:Does anyone get the sense that perhaps there are only crap offers on the table

Melo does not want the o be traded for crap. He sulked when told he was merely a top 15 player

And Phil is trying to get better offers from lesser teams and force Melo out?

No, that's not what is going on. What is going on is Melo believes that in a game of "chicken" that Dolan will blink first and fire Phil Jackson, then the problem goes away.

Melo has always gotten what he's wanted out of the Knicks, the Knicks have always lost or suffered for taking that route. Why would he not believe that he cannot leverage the Knicks again to do what he wants.

If he stays and Jackson is fired, he "wins" It wouldn't be a win in my eyes, but again we are talking about a player who would rather have a worldwide product of cologne with his name on it rather than win actual basketball games.

holfresh wrote:

smackeddog wrote:

holfresh wrote:Phil's legacy will take a big hit after this job...More because of the way he has handled the Melo situation than his bad job as President of Basketball Operations...

It will depend on what he gets for Melo and rose and who he drafts. If he gets some assets for those two and gets a great pick he'll have done a good job

Bro, he tried to throw Melo under the bus to force a trade and he got exposed..He gambled and lost..Melo played it well..It's all over the sports wires...If Melo doesn't agree to leave, Phil is done...I don't see how he recovers from the current onslaught...No way he shows his face tonight at the Garden...

SAS said they booed Phil at the Garden...

They booed melo the week before! How can you say Phil lost until we see if Melo goes. If Melo is still here after the deadline then Phil lost, now it's too soon to say.