FistOfOakley wrote:

TripleThreat wrote:
The problem is you are pushing a "consider the cap" argument without any kind of actual team fit context.

Monroe is "attainable" for very specific reasons. Most NBA teams didn't even bother to try to trade for him for very specific reasons. Lots of team who can use actual help in the pivot will gladly walk past Monroe for very specific reasons.

The "Let's spend the money because we have it and who knows who might come later" is EXACTLY the kind of thinking that got Amare Stoudamire here in the first place.

At max dollars, Monroe brings more questions than answers to any new team ( hence the "very specific reasons") In order to neutralize those questions, the Knicks will need to do two things, add an actual center who can play defense, which will burn out what's left of their cap space or eat their only lottery pick immediately, AND push Melo onto the wing position.

There is no "having fun" while watching Monroe and Melo get torched on defense each and every single night. And when I mean torched, I mean epic disaster movie kind of torched. There are joints in some higher schoolers backpack after prom that won't get lit up as much as Greg Monroe anywhere on the court.

And trading a complicated fit player at max dollars, even a pivot, who is one dimensional, that's not going to be as easy as you make it sound. Monroe's defensive limitations profile him out as a power forward and frankly other teams can find better utility for the modern game ( a cheaper Stretch 4 from the dregs of free agency or back end of the draft) for that position.

Ask yourself this, what is the "zero downside" in the Knicks continuing to overpay no defense power forwards onto their roster? Not like they haven't ridden that horse recently, right?

Monroe is a good player... probably underrated at this point...

-his defensive rebounding is in the top 20 in the league and is ahead of anthony davis.. all that was playing heavy minutes with andre drummond who's 3rd in the league...
-his assist rate is near the top for PF/C.. he's roughly on par with pau gasol.. having your big men be able to pass is a big deal in the triangle...
-he gets to the line a good deal... 0.394 FTr which is roughly 25% better than carmelo anthony...

He he has a career PER of 19.7 and avg WS of 6.4 in his 5 seasons in the league and he's currently 25...

normally i would be worried about fit and the money and those are the reasons why i was i originally against signing monroe.. but he's a good player and there aren't better options looking out the next couple of seasons... millsap's gonna be 30.. brook lopez? robin? not as good and injury prone... enes kanter? um no...

good PF's are notoriously hard to build around... chris webber, barkley, garnett, bosh all had to switch team to find good team success and a lot of the others took a long time to find good success with their own teams... monroe isn't quite in their class but he's just below it.. it's a worth a shot to see if the triangle is what turns him into a good to great player...

if we're not spending it on monroe who else are we spending it on that doesn't have a clean injury history, is young and this talented? this is not an amare signing.. monroe's younger, hasn't had amare's injury history and is for much less money...

if there's a good specific reason to roll over the cap space into next year then i'd be all for it... but there is none unless you think we have a shot at durant or horford.. and we'd have enough to offer them a max anyway.. and if we don't spend it within these next two offseasons then what? it's nice to say we'd just wait and lose and pick up draft picks but we don't have that luxury...

it's a 4yr 15.5mm deal.. this is not a cap crippling contract given the financial landscape next year and given the alternatives and the likelihood monroe can retain his value throughout the life of his contract... it's literally an all upside deal...

Great post. My concerns are almost a logical argument more so than any major characteristic of Monroe, but start from the premise that his defensive stats like blocks are subpar. Monroe's best stats are at center, where he, like Melo, enjoys some speed advantages facing the basket. Basically, I should be playing Melo at the 4 and Monroe at the 5 to get best value out of both, but that makes my lineup pretty much devoid of interior defense. Basically, I don't want the Monroe that played next to Monroe, I want the Monroe that played while Drummond was off the court... But that Monroe leaves me at a defensive disadvantage. I need a center that covers for Melo's defensive inadequacies. Not a player that forces me to play Melo at the wing.

newyorker4ever wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:

newyorker4ever wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:

s3231 wrote:Exactly...we're not the Pistons coming off an NBA title and deciding between Melo/Darko/Wade...

We need talent first and foremost and at #4, the mindset has to be taking the player you think will be the best. If Phil really thinks WCS is that guy, fine....but to draft him on need makes no sense for our current situation.

I guarantee we will take Stein OVER 1 of Okafor Porzingis Kaminsky Russell or even all of them. Danilo Fuzaro is BETTER than Stein.

By looking at how badly your draft board worked against you last year i don't think you should be making guarantees on how this one will work out. Will you be doing a complete first round mock this year???

What are you talking about? You sound like a little kid who heard 1/4 of a conversation and chimes in like he knows what's up . That's not my draft board its a game where there are a dozen participants

Ok, so will you be making a first round draft board for this draft so we can see how many you can get right??

newyorker4ever wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:

newyorker4ever wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:

s3231 wrote:Exactly...we're not the Pistons coming off an NBA title and deciding between Melo/Darko/Wade...

We need talent first and foremost and at #4, the mindset has to be taking the player you think will be the best. If Phil really thinks WCS is that guy, fine....but to draft him on need makes no sense for our current situation.

I guarantee we will take Stein OVER 1 of Okafor Porzingis Kaminsky Russell or even all of them. Danilo Fuzaro is BETTER than Stein.

By looking at how badly your draft board worked against you last year i don't think you should be making guarantees on how this one will work out. Will you be doing a complete first round mock this year???

What are you talking about? You sound like a little kid who heard 1/4 of a conversation and chimes in like he knows what's up . That's not my draft board its a game where there are a dozen participants

Ok, so will you be making a first round draft board for this draft so we can see how many you can get right??

Funny, but I bet some folks will see players they think should be picked by this or that team, go to those teams, and believe that was the best pick for that team.

The thinking process is that you should want your team to pick the best player for your team, not the guy you think they should pick.

We all argue about this- that is what this forum is for- but if I'm wrong about a guy who becomes a great Knick I will admit it and be damn happy about it.

The problem is that you won't know for a number of years whether you made the right pick.

I was was pretty pissed off when we lost Landry Fields to Toronto...ain't pissed off now.

So even if the Knicks take someone I really want us to take, I'm not some kind of "winner" worthy of gloating, because we won't know if he was the right pick for a few years.

You don't "win" if they pick your guy...the team only wins if he was the best player for the Knicks.

FistOfOakley wrote:

EwingsGlass wrote:Great post. My concerns are almost a logical argument more so than any major characteristic of Monroe, but start from the premise that his defensive stats like blocks are subpar. Monroe's best stats are at center, where he, like Melo, enjoys some speed advantages facing the basket. Basically, I should be playing Melo at the 4 and Monroe at the 5 to get best value out of both, but that makes my lineup pretty much devoid of interior defense. Basically, I don't want the Monroe that played next to Monroe, I want the Monroe that played while Drummond was off the court... But that Monroe leaves me at a defensive disadvantage. I need a center that covers for Melo's defensive inadequacies. Not a player that forces me to play Melo at the wing.

those concerns are all valid.. we're not gonna be printing Finals tickets after signing monroe.. that's not the point.. the point is to get a good young player at a somewhat reasonable price... the fit is awkward but guys at this age and this productive don't become available too often so it's worth a shot... it's our only window for talent before our buying power means nothing...

I guess that begs the question -- if I am signing a player based on what he can become versus what he already is, should I be issuing a max contract? If it's not a perfect fit, why overpay? If we are in transition, I should be bargain hunting and creating contracts that have built in value on signing. Otherwise you are a prospector - a gambler. you can say player valuations are shifting based on the 2016 cap projections so that the 15.8 max is already a value add contract. To prove it to me, you would have to give me 5 or so teams that would trade for Monroe with that max contract and give me real value in return. Put it back - what would you trade for Monroe at a max contract? Nobody traded for him at the deadline...

EwingsGlass wrote:I guess that begs the question -- if I am signing a player based on what he can become versus what he already is, should I be issuing a max contract? If it's not a perfect fit, why overpay? If we are in transition, I should be bargain hunting and creating contracts that have built in value on signing. Otherwise you are a prospector - a gambler. you can say player valuations are shifting based on the 2016 cap projections so that the 15.8 max is already a value add contract. To prove it to me, you would have to give me 5 or so teams that would trade for Monroe with that max contract and give me real value in return. Put it back - what would you trade for Monroe at a max contract? Nobody traded for him at the deadline...

just because it doesn't 'seem' like a perfect fit doesn't mean that it can't be...

and he's already a good player and it's reasonable to project at least the same type of production in his age 25-29 seasons... what that translates to in wins and losses we don't know but it's worth a shot...

his value shouldn't tank unless we're ready to give him up for cheap... zach randolph was a similar player... and probably not a flattering example... but he was still a good player by the time we traded him ... we chose the salary dump route but it wasn't too difficult to unload the contract seeing as how he was still a wildly productive player...

it took randolph a few stops but the grizz and blazers found a good way to use him and win... but they also had gasol and sheed which we don't have but that's what the draft and 2016 is for...

WaltLongmire wrote:

FistOfOakley wrote:

EwingsGlass wrote:I guess that begs the question -- if I am signing a player based on what he can become versus what he already is, should I be issuing a max contract? If it's not a perfect fit, why overpay? If we are in transition, I should be bargain hunting and creating contracts that have built in value on signing. Otherwise you are a prospector - a gambler. you can say player valuations are shifting based on the 2016 cap projections so that the 15.8 max is already a value add contract. To prove it to me, you would have to give me 5 or so teams that would trade for Monroe with that max contract and give me real value in return. Put it back - what would you trade for Monroe at a max contract? Nobody traded for him at the deadline...

just because it doesn't 'seem' like a perfect fit doesn't mean that it can't be...

and he's already a good player and it's reasonable to project at least the same type of production in his age 25-29 seasons... what that translates to in wins and losses we don't know but it's worth a shot...

his value shouldn't tank unless we're ready to give him up for cheap... zach randolph was a similar player... and probably not a flattering example... but he was still a good player by the time we traded him ... we chose the salary dump route but it wasn't too difficult to unload the contract seeing as how he was still a wildly productive player...

it took randolph a few stops but the grizz and blazers found a good way to use him and win... but they also had gasol and sheed which we don't have but that's what the draft and 2016 is for...

Monroe would replace Amundson, no? . Amundson actually seemed to take to the Triangle, and we frequently had him in the post, where Monroe is at his best, offensively and as a passer. If Amundson had been a more consistent shooter, that would have been great, but he probably shot more jumpers in the time he played for us last season than he had previously shot in his career during his his non-garbage time minutes. He even started hitting a few. I would think Monroe would be much better in that position.

Like to see him lose about 10lbs, though- would help his D.

Monroe can move and he's actually not too heavy. He lacks explosion but he is quick enough to face up and blow by his man. I think he has poor lateral quickness which is what makes him look slow. Running the floor you see his straight line speed. His defensive instincts aren't great either but he improved on D last year.

codeunknown wrote:

newyorker4ever wrote:

codeunknown wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:

newyorker4ever wrote:There's actually a center that might be a free agent if he opts out that i think would fit the triangle perfectly but he has the dreaded injury problems and that's B.Lopez. I would have him in the top of my free agent list if it wasn't for his injury problems and i still wouldn't hate it if we got him.

Here's a good plan if porzingis is available take him and let him develop. If okafor falls to 4 take him if none of these guys are there see if we can trade down for Kaminski and additional picks. Don't like Stein limited player who loses focus.3 years in school biggest game of his career and he doesn't show up

When you have a 15 man roster, all bringing a separate skill - it's good, except you can't play all 5 at once. Thats why minutes are top heavy - players that affect the net value are paramount and niche players are more valuable in select combinations. The combo of Stein and Monroe lack adequate shooting and are unimpressive from a rebounding standpoint. Defensively, sets can be devised to exploit Monroe. This is a team easy to gameplan for and beat.

That's pretty amazing that you can already predict how WCS a kid who hasn't even stepped foot in a NBA game and a young Monroe would play together in a new system that neither has ever even played in and you don't even know what the rest of the team looks like yet.......AMAZING STUFF RIGHT THERE.

Why so amazed? Decisions and predictions are made based on the available data. Everything has a confidence interval. In your hypocrisy, you probably don't realize that 95% of what you and everyone posts is either a projection or subjective interpretation of some kind. Enjoy it.

BRIGGS wrote:

newyorker4ever wrote:

WaltLongmire wrote:

newyorker4ever wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:

newyorker4ever wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:

s3231 wrote:Exactly...we're not the Pistons coming off an NBA title and deciding between Melo/Darko/Wade...

We need talent first and foremost and at #4, the mindset has to be taking the player you think will be the best. If Phil really thinks WCS is that guy, fine....but to draft him on need makes no sense for our current situation.

I guarantee we will take Stein OVER 1 of Okafor Porzingis Kaminsky Russell or even all of them. Danilo Fuzaro is BETTER than Stein.

By looking at how badly your draft board worked against you last year i don't think you should be making guarantees on how this one will work out. Will you be doing a complete first round mock this year???

What are you talking about? You sound like a little kid who heard 1/4 of a conversation and chimes in like he knows what's up . That's not my draft board its a game where there are a dozen participants

Ok, so will you be making a first round draft board for this draft so we can see how many you can get right??

You do know that if he does this, you will have to keep his picks, and 5 years down the road see how everyone has done in relation to where they are picked.

Funny, but I bet some folks will see players they think should be picked by this or that team, go to those teams, and believe that was the best pick for that team.

The thinking process is that you should want your team to pick the best player for your team, not the guy you think they should pick.

We all argue about this- that is what this forum is for- but if I'm wrong about a guy who becomes a great Knick I will admit it and be damn happy about it.

The problem is that you won't know for a number of years whether you made the right pick.

I was was pretty pissed off when we lost Landry Fields to Toronto...ain't pissed off now.

So even if the Knicks take someone I really want us to take, I'm not some kind of "winner" worthy of gloating, because we won't know if he was the right pick for a few years.

You don't "win" if they pick your guy...the team only wins if he was the best player for the Knicks.

Well said and i agree 100% and no i won't be keeping track of Briggs' board 3/4 years down the line cause the truth is i really don't care about his draft board and just like having a little fun with our message board GM. lol

By the way New York my first post on any Knicks message board was in 2000 a little white board I think fishmike and a few others were posting there. I came on the board and after introducing myself I said we should take mike redd with our 35 pick. We took lavar

post ell and the same shet has happened many times. Other than David lee our drafting commitment understanding usage has Ben the worst in the nba. This should've been a super team already. But every person who has worked for the Knicks has been bad bottom line you've only been here 3 years me my first Knicks game wa s43 years ago. And the last 15 years has been an abomination my man lead by little Napoleon the idiot Dolan

Change go getPorzingis stay the same draft stein and some other raw player who's great at d

Someone threw out a stat on the radio-Rick DiPietro, I think- no NBA team has won a championship is a very long time (1980s?) without a draft pick in the 1-5 range that YOU drafted.

WaltLongmire wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:

newyorker4ever wrote:

WaltLongmire wrote:

newyorker4ever wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:

newyorker4ever wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:

s3231 wrote:Exactly...we're not the Pistons coming off an NBA title and deciding between Melo/Darko/Wade...

We need talent first and foremost and at #4, the mindset has to be taking the player you think will be the best. If Phil really thinks WCS is that guy, fine....but to draft him on need makes no sense for our current situation.

I guarantee we will take Stein OVER 1 of Okafor Porzingis Kaminsky Russell or even all of them. Danilo Fuzaro is BETTER than Stein.

By looking at how badly your draft board worked against you last year i don't think you should be making guarantees on how this one will work out. Will you be doing a complete first round mock this year???

What are you talking about? You sound like a little kid who heard 1/4 of a conversation and chimes in like he knows what's up . That's not my draft board its a game where there are a dozen participants

Ok, so will you be making a first round draft board for this draft so we can see how many you can get right??

You do know that if he does this, you will have to keep his picks, and 5 years down the road see how everyone has done in relation to where they are picked.

Funny, but I bet some folks will see players they think should be picked by this or that team, go to those teams, and believe that was the best pick for that team.

The thinking process is that you should want your team to pick the best player for your team, not the guy you think they should pick.

We all argue about this- that is what this forum is for- but if I'm wrong about a guy who becomes a great Knick I will admit it and be damn happy about it.

The problem is that you won't know for a number of years whether you made the right pick.

I was was pretty pissed off when we lost Landry Fields to Toronto...ain't pissed off now.

So even if the Knicks take someone I really want us to take, I'm not some kind of "winner" worthy of gloating, because we won't know if he was the right pick for a few years.

You don't "win" if they pick your guy...the team only wins if he was the best player for the Knicks.

Well said and i agree 100% and no i won't be keeping track of Briggs' board 3/4 years down the line cause the truth is i really don't care about his draft board and just like having a little fun with our message board GM. lol

By the way New York my first post on any Knicks message board was in 2000 a little white board I think fishmike and a few others were posting there. I came on the board and after introducing myself I said we should take mike redd with our 35 pick. We took lavar

post ell and the same shet has happened many times. Other than David lee our drafting commitment understanding usage has Ben the worst in the nba. This should've been a super team already. But every person who has worked for the Knicks has been bad bottom line you've only been here 3 years me my first Knicks game wa s43 years ago. And the last 15 years has been an abomination my man lead by little Napoleon the idiot Dolan

Change go getPorzingis stay the same draft stein and some other raw player who's great at d

Of course in some cases we were never even given a chance to draft because we traded the picks.

Someone threw out a stat on the radio-Rick DiPietro, I think- no NBA team has won a championship is a very long time (1980s?) without a draft pick in the 1-5 range that YOU drafted.

Right we either made bad trades or we drafted the need player except Gallo drafting Gallo was the only out of the box move the knicks made. Otherwise it's just try to stabilize and win now. I don't want to post about how we sck at this and that. I want to enjoy a good team with my son no a great team. But I won't get that experience

FistOfOakley wrote:

EwingsGlass wrote:I guess that begs the question -- if I am signing a player based on what he can become versus what he already is, should I be issuing a max contract? If it's not a perfect fit, why overpay? If we are in transition, I should be bargain hunting and creating contracts that have built in value on signing. Otherwise you are a prospector - a gambler. you can say player valuations are shifting based on the 2016 cap projections so that the 15.8 max is already a value add contract. To prove it to me, you would have to give me 5 or so teams that would trade for Monroe with that max contract and give me real value in return. Put it back - what would you trade for Monroe at a max contract? Nobody traded for him at the deadline...

just because it doesn't 'seem' like a perfect fit doesn't mean that it can't be...

and he's already a good player and it's reasonable to project at least the same type of production in his age 25-29 seasons... what that translates to in wins and losses we don't know but it's worth a shot...

his value shouldn't tank unless we're ready to give him up for cheap... zach randolph was a similar player... and probably not a flattering example... but he was still a good player by the time we traded him ... we chose the salary dump route but it wasn't too difficult to unload the contract seeing as how he was still a wildly productive player...

it took randolph a few stops but the grizz and blazers found a good way to use him and win... but they also had gasol and sheed which we don't have but that's what the draft and 2016 is for...

even though I agree with your argument, I can't get past my fears of defensive inadequacy with Melo an Monroe in the front court. Monroe is not going to wake up and start blocking shots. So, to add Monroe, I'd really want to know his contract has real value in it. Call it 12mm and not the max and I am in. At 15.8 I think it is a push at best.