fishmike wrote:So Ive heard OK4 is going to get fat, compared him to Mike Sweetney.. the stuff Im reading is silly.

How about this.. can you guys find a college player who had pedestrian #s like Towns has now and went on to be an NBA star? Its easy to find busts... lets go the other way. Who was the NCAA guy who played a role like Stien and blossomed into a star?

Please name one... I think this would solidify the Towns>OK4 case. At least give us something to work with. Right now its farts and fairy tales

Andre Drummond was at 10ppg and 7.5rpg and 2.7bpg at UConn.

Sheed's first season at UNC - 9.5ppg 6.6rpg (second season 16.6ppg 8.2rpg)

Obviously Towns is going to take longer to develop than Okafor... though his overall game is better, he plays on a far deeper team that produces NBA all-stars every single year...

crzymdups wrote:

fishmike wrote:The Duke bigmen thing is fine.. I cant defend that except to say every player is different. Bargs and Curry fall under my group of players picked by potential over production. Curry was in HS and dominated there, so at least the Bulls had that. Ultimately it wasnt a talent problem with Curry it was a personality problem (work ethic) but again.... body of work. Town's body of work is incomplete, so you have to make assumptions. Marbury dominated college and was a very good pro despite being an ******* who alientated his teams, but he could surely play. Bargs was another euro playing 15-20 minutes that people were trying to "project" on and that might have been the worst draft ever.

I agree with you about personality being a big component. That's one reason I like D'Angelo Russell the best. Kid just seems like he has the flair to excel in NYC under the big lights. Towns has obviously down well on a huge stage in Kentucky which is also basically NBA training camp for prospects, though not consistently. Something about Okafor's demeanor, quiet... I don't know if I see it working in NY. I guess Ewing did okay though.

That said - the big thing I keep coming back to - all those Duke guys were really hard workers and took themselves and their games seriously. Boozer and Brand had some success, but I think it's fair to say Brand was something of a disappointment for a #1 overall pick. Laettner was a big time bust. Shelden Williams was awful.

I don't know. This is all obviously speculation, but if I had my pick, I'd take Russell. I'd be tempted to take Towns, but as you've said, that involves some speculation and hope. Though he has had some dominant games.

Ive started a few threads on Russell, but Im almost over talking about him because he is my favorite player in the draft and I know Im totally biased right now. I think the NBA is tailor made for this skill set. I think he's got that personality you mentioned. Hell.. he's even got the good looks. I also think he would look great right out of the gate next to the guys we have in Galloway, Shved and yes.. Jose

I love him and hope that we get him, but I dont see us taking him, rather it would happen if we just saw him as the BPA

Mostly Im terrified we blow this on a Thabeet caliber bust and Im afraid Towns fits the profile. OK4 seems like the worst you can say is he will be an 18/10/55% guy with marginal defense. Well would that help us? It sure would... I feel like worst case we are getting a nice piece, even if its not the Ewing clone the Town's Moobies are dreaming of.

mreinman wrote:

fishmike wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

fishmike wrote:The Duke bigmen thing is fine.. I cant defend that except to say every player is different. Bargs and Curry fall under my group of players picked by potential over production. Curry was in HS and dominated there, so at least the Bulls had that. Ultimately it wasnt a talent problem with Curry it was a personality problem (work ethic) but again.... body of work. Town's body of work is incomplete, so you have to make assumptions. Marbury dominated college and was a very good pro despite being an ******* who alientated his teams, but he could surely play. Bargs was another euro playing 15-20 minutes that people were trying to "project" on and that might have been the worst draft ever.

I agree with you about personality being a big component. That's one reason I like D'Angelo Russell the best. Kid just seems like he has the flair to excel in NYC under the big lights. Towns has obviously down well on a huge stage in Kentucky which is also basically NBA training camp for prospects, though not consistently. Something about Okafor's demeanor, quiet... I don't know if I see it working in NY. I guess Ewing did okay though.

That said - the big thing I keep coming back to - all those Duke guys were really hard workers and took themselves and their games seriously. Boozer and Brand had some success, but I think it's fair to say Brand was something of a disappointment for a #1 overall pick. Laettner was a big time bust. Shelden Williams was awful.

I don't know. This is all obviously speculation, but if I had my pick, I'd take Russell. I'd be tempted to take Towns, but as you've said, that involves some speculation and hope. Though he has had some dominant games.

ha... funny. +100000 and I honestly hope this just happens and the Knicks take him at #3.

Ive started a few threads on Russell, but Im almost over talking about him because he is my favorite player in the draft and I know Im totally biased right now. I think the NBA is tailor made for this skill set. I think he's got that personality you mentioned. Hell.. he's even got the good looks. I also think he would look great right out of the gate next to the guys we have in Galloway, Shved and yes.. Jose

I love him and hope that we get him, but I dont see us taking him, rather it would happen if we just saw him as the BPA

Mostly Im terrified we blow this on a Thabeet caliber bust and Im afraid Towns fits the profile. OK4 seems like the worst you can say is he will be an 18/10/55% guy with marginal defense. Well would that help us? It sure would... I feel like worst case we are getting a nice piece, even if its not the Ewing clone the Town's Moobies are dreaming of.

18/10/55% is meaningless. I can show you many players with those number who are good but far from great.

I am actually happy that we at least have a chance to get one of those 3.

What happens if we fall out of the top 3 which is a very large possibility that nobody is even mentioning? eeeeeeeesh

fishmike wrote:ha... funny. +100000 and I honestly hope this just happens and the Knicks take him at #3.

Ive started a few threads on Russell, but Im almost over talking about him because he is my favorite player in the draft and I know Im totally biased right now. I think the NBA is tailor made for this skill set. I think he's got that personality you mentioned. Hell.. he's even got the good looks. I also think he would look great right out of the gate next to the guys we have in Galloway, Shved and yes.. Jose

I love him and hope that we get him, but I dont see us taking him, rather it would happen if we just saw him as the BPA

Mostly Im terrified we blow this on a Thabeet caliber bust and Im afraid Towns fits the profile. OK4 seems like the worst you can say is he will be an 18/10/55% guy with marginal defense. Well would that help us? It sure would... I feel like worst case we are getting a nice piece, even if its not the Ewing clone the Town's Moobies are dreaming of.

the other thing I come back to - this year is stocked with NBA ready big men... in free agency. it takes bigs a while to develop in the league. a lot of guards come in and can hang right away. If the Knicks aren't feeling patient (and we know Dolan, Phil and Melo are all anxious to compete) D'Angelo presents a good option for that. And they can stock up on the need part of their list in FA with Hibbert, Robin Lopez, Monroe (who I don't love), etc, maybe hit a home run with LMA or Marc Gasol (though that's unlikely). if you look at ROY - they are usually guards. the league is geared toward that kind of player now. they want a draft pick to help them off the bat, Russell seems like a good bet who can also get better.

of course, being a lifelong Knicks fan, I am bracing for them to trade the pick for Kevin Love and then sign Rajon Rondo in FA. Hey, they'd sell some jerseys.

fishmike wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

fishmike wrote:So Ive heard OK4 is going to get fat, compared him to Mike Sweetney.. the stuff Im reading is silly.

How about this.. can you guys find a college player who had pedestrian #s like Towns has now and went on to be an NBA star? Its easy to find busts... lets go the other way. Who was the NCAA guy who played a role like Stien and blossomed into a star?

Please name one... I think this would solidify the Towns>OK4 case. At least give us something to work with. Right now its farts and fairy tales

Andre Drummond was at 10ppg and 7.5rpg and 2.7bpg at UConn.

Sheed's first season at UNC - 9.5ppg 6.6rpg (second season 16.6ppg 8.2rpg)

Obviously Towns is going to take longer to develop than Okafor... though his overall game is better, he plays on a far deeper team that produces NBA all-stars every single year...

pretty good. Here's another one: Marvin Williams

haha, fair enough. Yes, if they take Towns over Russell... shades of Marvin over Chris Paul and Bowie over Jordan will definitely cross my mind. I like Russell a lot. I tend to think the Knicks won't get him because I covet him so much. We'll see!

fishmike wrote:

mreinman wrote:

fishmike wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

fishmike wrote:The Duke bigmen thing is fine.. I cant defend that except to say every player is different. Bargs and Curry fall under my group of players picked by potential over production. Curry was in HS and dominated there, so at least the Bulls had that. Ultimately it wasnt a talent problem with Curry it was a personality problem (work ethic) but again.... body of work. Town's body of work is incomplete, so you have to make assumptions. Marbury dominated college and was a very good pro despite being an ******* who alientated his teams, but he could surely play. Bargs was another euro playing 15-20 minutes that people were trying to "project" on and that might have been the worst draft ever.

I agree with you about personality being a big component. That's one reason I like D'Angelo Russell the best. Kid just seems like he has the flair to excel in NYC under the big lights. Towns has obviously down well on a huge stage in Kentucky which is also basically NBA training camp for prospects, though not consistently. Something about Okafor's demeanor, quiet... I don't know if I see it working in NY. I guess Ewing did okay though.

That said - the big thing I keep coming back to - all those Duke guys were really hard workers and took themselves and their games seriously. Boozer and Brand had some success, but I think it's fair to say Brand was something of a disappointment for a #1 overall pick. Laettner was a big time bust. Shelden Williams was awful.

I don't know. This is all obviously speculation, but if I had my pick, I'd take Russell. I'd be tempted to take Towns, but as you've said, that involves some speculation and hope. Though he has had some dominant games.

ha... funny. +100000 and I honestly hope this just happens and the Knicks take him at #3.

Ive started a few threads on Russell, but Im almost over talking about him because he is my favorite player in the draft and I know Im totally biased right now. I think the NBA is tailor made for this skill set. I think he's got that personality you mentioned. Hell.. he's even got the good looks. I also think he would look great right out of the gate next to the guys we have in Galloway, Shved and yes.. Jose

I love him and hope that we get him, but I dont see us taking him, rather it would happen if we just saw him as the BPA

Mostly Im terrified we blow this on a Thabeet caliber bust and Im afraid Towns fits the profile. OK4 seems like the worst you can say is he will be an 18/10/55% guy with marginal defense. Well would that help us? It sure would... I feel like worst case we are getting a nice piece, even if its not the Ewing clone the Town's Moobies are dreaming of.

18/10/55% is meaningless. I can show you many players with those number who are good but far from great.

I am actually happy that we at least have a chance to get one of those 3.

What happens if we fall out of the top 3 which is a very large possibility that nobody is even mentioning? eeeeeeeesh

its not meaningless.. remember you said there are no empty stats right? You just spelled my point though.. you cant show me too many 18/10/55% that are BAD can you?

David Lee comes to mind and I would take him on my team and surround him with players that mask his deficiencies.

So what it comes down to is you want ok4 because he is the safe pick. Nothing wrong with that. No need to drag Towns through the mud. Two entirely different philosophies at play. We shall see

Vmart wrote:

WaltLongmire wrote:

fishmike wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:I've come to think of it like this.

IF Duke played PLumlee at C Okafor at 4--there would be zero debate who the number #1 pick is. I realized watching last game finally---Duke simply plays small when they could stand to play big. They put a LOT on a freshmen to carry the team both ways and hes not equipped to do it by himself in the middle where he ash some flaw. But if they started the season with Plumlee in the middle--no one would say boo about his D and he'd have the same numbers. It just took me time to realize--and Im not stepping on coach KIs shoes but he really should start Plumlee at C and play a traditional line up. They could never match Kentucky without the double big. They could just rotate Plumlee Okafor and Jefferson. Playing at 6-10 with a 6-6 PF who should be a 3--thats small and Okafor is a 4 not a 5

OK4... 6'11 with a 7'6 wingpan at 270 lbs with a pure under the rim post game and you want him at PF. I simply dont get this notion that he should be a PF. Why? Because Duncan called himself a PF for all these years?

I dont want OK4 guarding 4s and on offense I dont want him anway further than 8 feet from the basket where he's shooting just under 70%. OK4's FG% is higher than anything I can remember. I started poking around for other NCAA bigs:
OK4 .669
Sgaq .628 (best - sophmore)
Hakeem .675 (best - JR season)
Zo .603 (best - FR season)

I gave up after that... at 19 OK4 is poised to be one of the best scoring bigs in the game. Ever

"Back in the day" OK4 might have been able play at PF. Have to think he would have a terrible time trying to guard stretch 4 type players these days, and on offense, like you say, you don't want him starting out far from the basket when he has such a great post-up game.

The real issue for me with OK4, if we get him, is that I believe Anthony will have to play PF at some point (very possibly next year), which is great for us on offense, but terrible on D, if you have OK4 at 5 and Anthony at 4, and OK4 is does not prove to be an acceptable defender.

Towns is generally thought of as the guy who you are choosing based on potential, but in OK4's case, you are also taking him believing that he has the potential to be an NBA quality defender, and I have not seen that kind of ability in the games I've seen him play.

Walt OK4 is a good defender, just as good as KAT, Duke needs OK4 on the floor. Where as Kentucky doesn't necessarily need KAT on the floor. He can go hard on the defensive end. OK4 has to hold back on the defensive end he can't get into foul trouble lets face it Duke isn't as loaded as Kentucky.

lame excuse. his defense is just notthatgood and he is going to get abused in the nba. that's one of the reason why his stock has fallen off some the last month or so.

gunsnewing wrote:Marvin Williams is nothing like Towns. You laughed at Sweetney-OK4 and come back with that?

I don't see the Marvin Williams comparison at all. Strange.

FistOfOakley wrote:Using per game numbers can be very misleading.... the first thing you have to do when comparing any two players is make sure that they are on the same scale... Per 40 or per 100 possession are the popular ones..

yuk ... fishmike hates per 40. He would rather use actual compilations

mreinman wrote:

gunsnewing wrote:Marvin Williams is nothing like Towns. You laughed at Sweetney-OK4 and come back with that?

I don't see the Marvin Williams comparison at all. Strange.

Yea he is a tweener. Neither SF or PF and played at UNC not kentucky under Cal