Uptown wrote:

tkf wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

mreinman wrote:

tkf wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

JamesLin wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

JamesLin wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:Because stuff like that doesn't seem to be accurate or tangent to the conversation. You're lauding Sprewell for getting us to the Finals as if the 14 other players and coach had nothing to do with it. Before New York, what was Sprewell? How well was he in getting the Warriors to the Finals? To the playoffs? Or even a winning record?

And who gives a **** if he holds an NBA record? Scott Skiles holds the record in assists. Does that mean he gets to be put in a conversation with John Stockton? If you really want to play the accolade game, Melo easily outshines Sprewell e.g. most points in a quarter (33), NBA scoring champion, more All-NBA recognitions, more all-star berths, etc. I just don't think that the line of reasoning that you're using holds any real weight in the kind of conversation that you're trying to have.

Ok, so which part is not accurate? Sprewell helped getting us to the NBA finals is not? I never said Sprewell one handed took us to the finals. So by your argument, if Carmelo took us to the finals, you're saying I will be lauding Melo for getting us to the Finals as if the 14 other players and coach had nothing to do with it? Who gives a **** if he holds an NBA record as a Knicks? Are you even a NBA fan then? So all your argument so far only states 'James, you're wrong, period and all records are useless in my book'. So, although I have a hard time even respecting you now as a somewhat basketball fan since you disregard NBA record or championship as crap, you still haven't counter argue what is relevant to who's a better Knicks player... so what is it then?

Again, your argument makes no sense. You keep trying to use the fact that Sprewell was on a Finals team to demonstrate that he was a better player than Melo. That is simply stupid. Postseason success isn't an individual accolade, it is a team accolade. Melo NEVER had the caliber of teammate that Sprewell did in New York, so it is inappropriate to bring team success into the discussion. For the record though, I could care less what you do with your respect. I'd just like to see a cogent debate being made.

As for NBA records, again, it is hardly relevant. When comparing two players you need to look at a body of work and not just individual games. I used the Scott Skiles example to demonstrate that point. By your line of reasoning, we should begin to entertain him being in conversations with the greatest PG's of all-time since he accomplished a feat that none of them did. That would be absurd. Jamal Crawford once had a 50 point game as a Knick. Does that make him worthy of being compared to Bernard King, Patrick Ewing, Carmelo Anthony, Earl the Pearl and the like? It would be frivolous to assume so.

Moving forward, you need to define what makes another player better than another. What does that involve in your opinion?

Oh god. You're doing this yet again. You still haven't answered the question.. so what IS RELEVANT to be the better KNICKS player? All you said up there was why I don't make any sense. I already defined mine in several points (see first post), whether you agree or not. You have YET to define yours. You keep avoiding answering it because ... you don't have an answer and hate my answer? If you make another post not answer directly my question to you, then I know you're just arguing for the sake of arguing and I have no patience to debate/argue with people like that because it's like arguing with a little kid saying 'no no no' 'no no no'.

I actually did that both directly and indirectly. I clearly suggested that you have to ignore team accomplishments and focus on individual accolades (examples I used included all-star appearances, All-NBA recognitions, statistic champion, etc). I also clearly stated that these accolades would have to be a part of a greater and more demonstrated body of work than individual games. If you invested as much time in reading comprehension as you did in being a condescending, smart-ass, you would've realized that.

All star games are more popularity contest, but if you want to go accolades.. spree made all nba first team and all NBA defense second team.. carmelo never, ever made an all defense team( no surprise there) and he never made all NBA first team... both guys made multiple all star games...

You do realize that the all defense and all NBA year was after he left the knicks right (93-94 with Minny)? This poll is about the knicks.

That same year, he was 11th in MVP voting (93-94 with Minny), never sniffed that close before. Carmelo was 3rd and 6th in voting.

How many times was Sprewell player of the Week? NONE. Player of the Month? NONE. Melo, Player of the week 18, player of the month 5.

Are you just cherry picking a bit?

Sprewell was the better defender but he would have to be the best defender in history * 20 to make up for the offensive gap of the two players.

Dude, like I told you, proceed at your own caution. You'll never get a cogent argument out of him if it involves Melo. Case and point, somehow in his world being all-defense twice (which only accounts for one side of the floor) is more significant than being all-NBA, which Melo has been for half his career (and that honor involves a player's complete game). He's got his own anti-Melo agenda and no amount of facts are going to disrupt that. Its why I don't even both to read his posts, unless I accidently glimpse it in someone else's response.

You'll never get a cogent argument out of him if it involves Melo. Case and point, somehow in his world being all-defense twice (which only accounts for one side of the floor) is more significant than being all-NBA, which Melo has been for half his career (and that honor involves a player's complete game).

sprewell has also been all NBA, actually first team.. something carmelo has never done... what is more significant is that sprewell was a results player.. came to NY, we go to finals first year.. he goes to the wolves they go to the ECF that same year..

Boy it would be nice if carmelo had that kind of impact on the knicks...

care to argue that? I am asking for results.. all you can give me are excuses.. because I am going to ask you now.. why are we failing with carmelo.. and you are going to blame it on someone else.... for a change. please surprise me...

otherwise you are doing what you are accusing me of..

This is what I'm talking about in terms of posts that lack objectivity.......You only touch on the surface of Spree's impact on the Knicks vs. Melo's impact.

The 99 version of the Knicks were 2x's better than any team that Melo played for on the Knicks. Spree played alongside Ewing, LJ, Houston and a young Camby. Truth be told, I would take every single one of those players before I'd take the next best player that Melo played with while in NY.

Also, that Minny team that went to the WCF also had a player by the name of Kevin Garnett. Who has Melo ever played with that was as good as KG?

and that is objective? carmelo had 6th man of the year, DPOY and a healthy amare when he first got here....

how were they 2x better than any team carmelo played for.. you do realize that argument is as old as noah.... and it doesn't hold water... you do realize Ewing got injured after the second game of that heat series and didn't play again.. LJ was not healthy and camby as you said was young.. so who did sprewell have outside of Houston? what happened is that those guys raised their games, especially sprewell.... that is the "x" factor... that is what carmelo was supposed to do for this team and he has failed miserably.... I am being as objective as one can be here.. this is a results oriented league....

Also, that Minny team that went to the WCF also had a player by the name of Kevin Garnett. Who has Melo ever played with that was as good as KG?

So we are back to that again? rofl. I give up.....

Uptown wrote:

tkf wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

mreinman wrote:

tkf wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

JamesLin wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

JamesLin wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:Because stuff like that doesn't seem to be accurate or tangent to the conversation. You're lauding Sprewell for getting us to the Finals as if the 14 other players and coach had nothing to do with it. Before New York, what was Sprewell? How well was he in getting the Warriors to the Finals? To the playoffs? Or even a winning record?

And who gives a **** if he holds an NBA record? Scott Skiles holds the record in assists. Does that mean he gets to be put in a conversation with John Stockton? If you really want to play the accolade game, Melo easily outshines Sprewell e.g. most points in a quarter (33), NBA scoring champion, more All-NBA recognitions, more all-star berths, etc. I just don't think that the line of reasoning that you're using holds any real weight in the kind of conversation that you're trying to have.

Ok, so which part is not accurate? Sprewell helped getting us to the NBA finals is not? I never said Sprewell one handed took us to the finals. So by your argument, if Carmelo took us to the finals, you're saying I will be lauding Melo for getting us to the Finals as if the 14 other players and coach had nothing to do with it? Who gives a **** if he holds an NBA record as a Knicks? Are you even a NBA fan then? So all your argument so far only states 'James, you're wrong, period and all records are useless in my book'. So, although I have a hard time even respecting you now as a somewhat basketball fan since you disregard NBA record or championship as crap, you still haven't counter argue what is relevant to who's a better Knicks player... so what is it then?

Again, your argument makes no sense. You keep trying to use the fact that Sprewell was on a Finals team to demonstrate that he was a better player than Melo. That is simply stupid. Postseason success isn't an individual accolade, it is a team accolade. Melo NEVER had the caliber of teammate that Sprewell did in New York, so it is inappropriate to bring team success into the discussion. For the record though, I could care less what you do with your respect. I'd just like to see a cogent debate being made.

As for NBA records, again, it is hardly relevant. When comparing two players you need to look at a body of work and not just individual games. I used the Scott Skiles example to demonstrate that point. By your line of reasoning, we should begin to entertain him being in conversations with the greatest PG's of all-time since he accomplished a feat that none of them did. That would be absurd. Jamal Crawford once had a 50 point game as a Knick. Does that make him worthy of being compared to Bernard King, Patrick Ewing, Carmelo Anthony, Earl the Pearl and the like? It would be frivolous to assume so.

Moving forward, you need to define what makes another player better than another. What does that involve in your opinion?

Oh god. You're doing this yet again. You still haven't answered the question.. so what IS RELEVANT to be the better KNICKS player? All you said up there was why I don't make any sense. I already defined mine in several points (see first post), whether you agree or not. You have YET to define yours. You keep avoiding answering it because ... you don't have an answer and hate my answer? If you make another post not answer directly my question to you, then I know you're just arguing for the sake of arguing and I have no patience to debate/argue with people like that because it's like arguing with a little kid saying 'no no no' 'no no no'.

I actually did that both directly and indirectly. I clearly suggested that you have to ignore team accomplishments and focus on individual accolades (examples I used included all-star appearances, All-NBA recognitions, statistic champion, etc). I also clearly stated that these accolades would have to be a part of a greater and more demonstrated body of work than individual games. If you invested as much time in reading comprehension as you did in being a condescending, smart-ass, you would've realized that.

All star games are more popularity contest, but if you want to go accolades.. spree made all nba first team and all NBA defense second team.. carmelo never, ever made an all defense team( no surprise there) and he never made all NBA first team... both guys made multiple all star games...

You do realize that the all defense and all NBA year was after he left the knicks right (93-94 with Minny)? This poll is about the knicks.

That same year, he was 11th in MVP voting (93-94 with Minny), never sniffed that close before. Carmelo was 3rd and 6th in voting.

How many times was Sprewell player of the Week? NONE. Player of the Month? NONE. Melo, Player of the week 18, player of the month 5.

Are you just cherry picking a bit?

Sprewell was the better defender but he would have to be the best defender in history * 20 to make up for the offensive gap of the two players.

Dude, like I told you, proceed at your own caution. You'll never get a cogent argument out of him if it involves Melo. Case and point, somehow in his world being all-defense twice (which only accounts for one side of the floor) is more significant than being all-NBA, which Melo has been for half his career (and that honor involves a player's complete game). He's got his own anti-Melo agenda and no amount of facts are going to disrupt that. Its why I don't even both to read his posts, unless I accidently glimpse it in someone else's response.

You'll never get a cogent argument out of him if it involves Melo. Case and point, somehow in his world being all-defense twice (which only accounts for one side of the floor) is more significant than being all-NBA, which Melo has been for half his career (and that honor involves a player's complete game).

sprewell has also been all NBA, actually first team.. something carmelo has never done... what is more significant is that sprewell was a results player.. came to NY, we go to finals first year.. he goes to the wolves they go to the ECF that same year..

Boy it would be nice if carmelo had that kind of impact on the knicks...

care to argue that? I am asking for results.. all you can give me are excuses.. because I am going to ask you now.. why are we failing with carmelo.. and you are going to blame it on someone else.... for a change. please surprise me...

otherwise you are doing what you are accusing me of..

This is what I'm talking about in terms of posts that lack objectivity.......You only touch on the surface of Spree's impact on the Knicks vs. Melo's impact.

The 99 version of the Knicks were 2x's better than any team that Melo played for on the Knicks. Spree played alongside Ewing, LJ, Houston and a young Camby. Truth be told, I would take every single one of those players before I'd take the next best player that Melo played with while in NY.

Also, that Minny team that went to the WCF also had a player by the name of Kevin Garnett. Who has Melo ever played with that was as good as KG?

I think you both have valid points of view, but spree and melo are 2 different kinds of players, into different roles. Spree wasn't the goto guy on the knicks or twolves, mean while the mind set that melo has..score score score is far diferent then the mind set of spree.

knicks1248 wrote:

Uptown wrote:

tkf wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

mreinman wrote:

tkf wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

JamesLin wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

JamesLin wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:Because stuff like that doesn't seem to be accurate or tangent to the conversation. You're lauding Sprewell for getting us to the Finals as if the 14 other players and coach had nothing to do with it. Before New York, what was Sprewell? How well was he in getting the Warriors to the Finals? To the playoffs? Or even a winning record?

And who gives a **** if he holds an NBA record? Scott Skiles holds the record in assists. Does that mean he gets to be put in a conversation with John Stockton? If you really want to play the accolade game, Melo easily outshines Sprewell e.g. most points in a quarter (33), NBA scoring champion, more All-NBA recognitions, more all-star berths, etc. I just don't think that the line of reasoning that you're using holds any real weight in the kind of conversation that you're trying to have.

Ok, so which part is not accurate? Sprewell helped getting us to the NBA finals is not? I never said Sprewell one handed took us to the finals. So by your argument, if Carmelo took us to the finals, you're saying I will be lauding Melo for getting us to the Finals as if the 14 other players and coach had nothing to do with it? Who gives a **** if he holds an NBA record as a Knicks? Are you even a NBA fan then? So all your argument so far only states 'James, you're wrong, period and all records are useless in my book'. So, although I have a hard time even respecting you now as a somewhat basketball fan since you disregard NBA record or championship as crap, you still haven't counter argue what is relevant to who's a better Knicks player... so what is it then?

Again, your argument makes no sense. You keep trying to use the fact that Sprewell was on a Finals team to demonstrate that he was a better player than Melo. That is simply stupid. Postseason success isn't an individual accolade, it is a team accolade. Melo NEVER had the caliber of teammate that Sprewell did in New York, so it is inappropriate to bring team success into the discussion. For the record though, I could care less what you do with your respect. I'd just like to see a cogent debate being made.

As for NBA records, again, it is hardly relevant. When comparing two players you need to look at a body of work and not just individual games. I used the Scott Skiles example to demonstrate that point. By your line of reasoning, we should begin to entertain him being in conversations with the greatest PG's of all-time since he accomplished a feat that none of them did. That would be absurd. Jamal Crawford once had a 50 point game as a Knick. Does that make him worthy of being compared to Bernard King, Patrick Ewing, Carmelo Anthony, Earl the Pearl and the like? It would be frivolous to assume so.

Moving forward, you need to define what makes another player better than another. What does that involve in your opinion?

Oh god. You're doing this yet again. You still haven't answered the question.. so what IS RELEVANT to be the better KNICKS player? All you said up there was why I don't make any sense. I already defined mine in several points (see first post), whether you agree or not. You have YET to define yours. You keep avoiding answering it because ... you don't have an answer and hate my answer? If you make another post not answer directly my question to you, then I know you're just arguing for the sake of arguing and I have no patience to debate/argue with people like that because it's like arguing with a little kid saying 'no no no' 'no no no'.

I actually did that both directly and indirectly. I clearly suggested that you have to ignore team accomplishments and focus on individual accolades (examples I used included all-star appearances, All-NBA recognitions, statistic champion, etc). I also clearly stated that these accolades would have to be a part of a greater and more demonstrated body of work than individual games. If you invested as much time in reading comprehension as you did in being a condescending, smart-ass, you would've realized that.

All star games are more popularity contest, but if you want to go accolades.. spree made all nba first team and all NBA defense second team.. carmelo never, ever made an all defense team( no surprise there) and he never made all NBA first team... both guys made multiple all star games...

You do realize that the all defense and all NBA year was after he left the knicks right (93-94 with Minny)? This poll is about the knicks.

That same year, he was 11th in MVP voting (93-94 with Minny), never sniffed that close before. Carmelo was 3rd and 6th in voting.

How many times was Sprewell player of the Week? NONE. Player of the Month? NONE. Melo, Player of the week 18, player of the month 5.

Are you just cherry picking a bit?

Sprewell was the better defender but he would have to be the best defender in history * 20 to make up for the offensive gap of the two players.

Dude, like I told you, proceed at your own caution. You'll never get a cogent argument out of him if it involves Melo. Case and point, somehow in his world being all-defense twice (which only accounts for one side of the floor) is more significant than being all-NBA, which Melo has been for half his career (and that honor involves a player's complete game). He's got his own anti-Melo agenda and no amount of facts are going to disrupt that. Its why I don't even both to read his posts, unless I accidently glimpse it in someone else's response.

You'll never get a cogent argument out of him if it involves Melo. Case and point, somehow in his world being all-defense twice (which only accounts for one side of the floor) is more significant than being all-NBA, which Melo has been for half his career (and that honor involves a player's complete game).

sprewell has also been all NBA, actually first team.. something carmelo has never done... what is more significant is that sprewell was a results player.. came to NY, we go to finals first year.. he goes to the wolves they go to the ECF that same year..

Boy it would be nice if carmelo had that kind of impact on the knicks...

care to argue that? I am asking for results.. all you can give me are excuses.. because I am going to ask you now.. why are we failing with carmelo.. and you are going to blame it on someone else.... for a change. please surprise me...

otherwise you are doing what you are accusing me of..

This is what I'm talking about in terms of posts that lack objectivity.......You only touch on the surface of Spree's impact on the Knicks vs. Melo's impact.

The 99 version of the Knicks were 2x's better than any team that Melo played for on the Knicks. Spree played alongside Ewing, LJ, Houston and a young Camby. Truth be told, I would take every single one of those players before I'd take the next best player that Melo played with while in NY.

Also, that Minny team that went to the WCF also had a player by the name of Kevin Garnett. Who has Melo ever played with that was as good as KG?

I think you both have valid points of view, but spree and melo are 2 different kinds of players, into different roles. Spree wasn't the goto guy on the knicks or twolves, mean while the mind set that melo has..score score score is far diferent then the mind set of spree.

but actually during that finals run, he was the knicks go to guy on both ends of the floor... The other guys fed off of sprewell... and remember Ewing wasn't around..

mreinman wrote:

tkf wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

Uptown wrote:

tkf wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

mreinman wrote:

tkf wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

JamesLin wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

JamesLin wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:Because stuff like that doesn't seem to be accurate or tangent to the conversation. You're lauding Sprewell for getting us to the Finals as if the 14 other players and coach had nothing to do with it. Before New York, what was Sprewell? How well was he in getting the Warriors to the Finals? To the playoffs? Or even a winning record?

And who gives a **** if he holds an NBA record? Scott Skiles holds the record in assists. Does that mean he gets to be put in a conversation with John Stockton? If you really want to play the accolade game, Melo easily outshines Sprewell e.g. most points in a quarter (33), NBA scoring champion, more All-NBA recognitions, more all-star berths, etc. I just don't think that the line of reasoning that you're using holds any real weight in the kind of conversation that you're trying to have.

Ok, so which part is not accurate? Sprewell helped getting us to the NBA finals is not? I never said Sprewell one handed took us to the finals. So by your argument, if Carmelo took us to the finals, you're saying I will be lauding Melo for getting us to the Finals as if the 14 other players and coach had nothing to do with it? Who gives a **** if he holds an NBA record as a Knicks? Are you even a NBA fan then? So all your argument so far only states 'James, you're wrong, period and all records are useless in my book'. So, although I have a hard time even respecting you now as a somewhat basketball fan since you disregard NBA record or championship as crap, you still haven't counter argue what is relevant to who's a better Knicks player... so what is it then?

Again, your argument makes no sense. You keep trying to use the fact that Sprewell was on a Finals team to demonstrate that he was a better player than Melo. That is simply stupid. Postseason success isn't an individual accolade, it is a team accolade. Melo NEVER had the caliber of teammate that Sprewell did in New York, so it is inappropriate to bring team success into the discussion. For the record though, I could care less what you do with your respect. I'd just like to see a cogent debate being made.

As for NBA records, again, it is hardly relevant. When comparing two players you need to look at a body of work and not just individual games. I used the Scott Skiles example to demonstrate that point. By your line of reasoning, we should begin to entertain him being in conversations with the greatest PG's of all-time since he accomplished a feat that none of them did. That would be absurd. Jamal Crawford once had a 50 point game as a Knick. Does that make him worthy of being compared to Bernard King, Patrick Ewing, Carmelo Anthony, Earl the Pearl and the like? It would be frivolous to assume so.

Moving forward, you need to define what makes another player better than another. What does that involve in your opinion?

Oh god. You're doing this yet again. You still haven't answered the question.. so what IS RELEVANT to be the better KNICKS player? All you said up there was why I don't make any sense. I already defined mine in several points (see first post), whether you agree or not. You have YET to define yours. You keep avoiding answering it because ... you don't have an answer and hate my answer? If you make another post not answer directly my question to you, then I know you're just arguing for the sake of arguing and I have no patience to debate/argue with people like that because it's like arguing with a little kid saying 'no no no' 'no no no'.

I actually did that both directly and indirectly. I clearly suggested that you have to ignore team accomplishments and focus on individual accolades (examples I used included all-star appearances, All-NBA recognitions, statistic champion, etc). I also clearly stated that these accolades would have to be a part of a greater and more demonstrated body of work than individual games. If you invested as much time in reading comprehension as you did in being a condescending, smart-ass, you would've realized that.

All star games are more popularity contest, but if you want to go accolades.. spree made all nba first team and all NBA defense second team.. carmelo never, ever made an all defense team( no surprise there) and he never made all NBA first team... both guys made multiple all star games...

You do realize that the all defense and all NBA year was after he left the knicks right (93-94 with Minny)? This poll is about the knicks.

That same year, he was 11th in MVP voting (93-94 with Minny), never sniffed that close before. Carmelo was 3rd and 6th in voting.

How many times was Sprewell player of the Week? NONE. Player of the Month? NONE. Melo, Player of the week 18, player of the month 5.

Are you just cherry picking a bit?

Sprewell was the better defender but he would have to be the best defender in history * 20 to make up for the offensive gap of the two players.

Dude, like I told you, proceed at your own caution. You'll never get a cogent argument out of him if it involves Melo. Case and point, somehow in his world being all-defense twice (which only accounts for one side of the floor) is more significant than being all-NBA, which Melo has been for half his career (and that honor involves a player's complete game). He's got his own anti-Melo agenda and no amount of facts are going to disrupt that. Its why I don't even both to read his posts, unless I accidently glimpse it in someone else's response.

You'll never get a cogent argument out of him if it involves Melo. Case and point, somehow in his world being all-defense twice (which only accounts for one side of the floor) is more significant than being all-NBA, which Melo has been for half his career (and that honor involves a player's complete game).

sprewell has also been all NBA, actually first team.. something carmelo has never done... what is more significant is that sprewell was a results player.. came to NY, we go to finals first year.. he goes to the wolves they go to the ECF that same year..

Boy it would be nice if carmelo had that kind of impact on the knicks...

care to argue that? I am asking for results.. all you can give me are excuses.. because I am going to ask you now.. why are we failing with carmelo.. and you are going to blame it on someone else.... for a change. please surprise me...

otherwise you are doing what you are accusing me of..

This is what I'm talking about in terms of posts that lack objectivity.......You only touch on the surface of Spree's impact on the Knicks vs. Melo's impact.

The 99 version of the Knicks were 2x's better than any team that Melo played for on the Knicks. Spree played alongside Ewing, LJ, Houston and a young Camby. Truth be told, I would take every single one of those players before I'd take the next best player that Melo played with while in NY.

Also, that Minny team that went to the WCF also had a player by the name of Kevin Garnett. Who has Melo ever played with that was as good as KG?

I think you both have valid points of view, but spree and melo are 2 different kinds of players, into different roles. Spree wasn't the goto guy on the knicks or twolves, mean while the mind set that melo has..score score score is far diferent then the mind set of spree.

but actually during that finals run, he was the knicks go to guy on both ends of the floor... The other guys fed off of sprewell... and remember Ewing wasn't around..

Actually, anyone who does not know that it was Marcus Camby that carried this team is misinformed by a wide margin.

Ok, well then marcus camby was the greatest knick since Ewing.. in the end the argument comes down to winning..

You have no where else to go..

But this is even better.. camby is better than spree, and camby is better than melo and camby played with carmelo for many years, yet they still got bounced out of the first round many times.. and never made it to the finals...

but let me guess.... now the excuse is.. he had to play against Duncan right? well what happened when he played vs the clippers and the Utah Jazz?

Dude I am giving you a chance to retreat!!

mreinman wrote:

tkf wrote:

mreinman wrote:

tkf wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

Uptown wrote:

tkf wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

mreinman wrote:

tkf wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

JamesLin wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

JamesLin wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:Because stuff like that doesn't seem to be accurate or tangent to the conversation. You're lauding Sprewell for getting us to the Finals as if the 14 other players and coach had nothing to do with it. Before New York, what was Sprewell? How well was he in getting the Warriors to the Finals? To the playoffs? Or even a winning record?

And who gives a **** if he holds an NBA record? Scott Skiles holds the record in assists. Does that mean he gets to be put in a conversation with John Stockton? If you really want to play the accolade game, Melo easily outshines Sprewell e.g. most points in a quarter (33), NBA scoring champion, more All-NBA recognitions, more all-star berths, etc. I just don't think that the line of reasoning that you're using holds any real weight in the kind of conversation that you're trying to have.

Ok, so which part is not accurate? Sprewell helped getting us to the NBA finals is not? I never said Sprewell one handed took us to the finals. So by your argument, if Carmelo took us to the finals, you're saying I will be lauding Melo for getting us to the Finals as if the 14 other players and coach had nothing to do with it? Who gives a **** if he holds an NBA record as a Knicks? Are you even a NBA fan then? So all your argument so far only states 'James, you're wrong, period and all records are useless in my book'. So, although I have a hard time even respecting you now as a somewhat basketball fan since you disregard NBA record or championship as crap, you still haven't counter argue what is relevant to who's a better Knicks player... so what is it then?

Again, your argument makes no sense. You keep trying to use the fact that Sprewell was on a Finals team to demonstrate that he was a better player than Melo. That is simply stupid. Postseason success isn't an individual accolade, it is a team accolade. Melo NEVER had the caliber of teammate that Sprewell did in New York, so it is inappropriate to bring team success into the discussion. For the record though, I could care less what you do with your respect. I'd just like to see a cogent debate being made.

As for NBA records, again, it is hardly relevant. When comparing two players you need to look at a body of work and not just individual games. I used the Scott Skiles example to demonstrate that point. By your line of reasoning, we should begin to entertain him being in conversations with the greatest PG's of all-time since he accomplished a feat that none of them did. That would be absurd. Jamal Crawford once had a 50 point game as a Knick. Does that make him worthy of being compared to Bernard King, Patrick Ewing, Carmelo Anthony, Earl the Pearl and the like? It would be frivolous to assume so.

Moving forward, you need to define what makes another player better than another. What does that involve in your opinion?

Oh god. You're doing this yet again. You still haven't answered the question.. so what IS RELEVANT to be the better KNICKS player? All you said up there was why I don't make any sense. I already defined mine in several points (see first post), whether you agree or not. You have YET to define yours. You keep avoiding answering it because ... you don't have an answer and hate my answer? If you make another post not answer directly my question to you, then I know you're just arguing for the sake of arguing and I have no patience to debate/argue with people like that because it's like arguing with a little kid saying 'no no no' 'no no no'.

I actually did that both directly and indirectly. I clearly suggested that you have to ignore team accomplishments and focus on individual accolades (examples I used included all-star appearances, All-NBA recognitions, statistic champion, etc). I also clearly stated that these accolades would have to be a part of a greater and more demonstrated body of work than individual games. If you invested as much time in reading comprehension as you did in being a condescending, smart-ass, you would've realized that.

All star games are more popularity contest, but if you want to go accolades.. spree made all nba first team and all NBA defense second team.. carmelo never, ever made an all defense team( no surprise there) and he never made all NBA first team... both guys made multiple all star games...

You do realize that the all defense and all NBA year was after he left the knicks right (93-94 with Minny)? This poll is about the knicks.

That same year, he was 11th in MVP voting (93-94 with Minny), never sniffed that close before. Carmelo was 3rd and 6th in voting.

How many times was Sprewell player of the Week? NONE. Player of the Month? NONE. Melo, Player of the week 18, player of the month 5.

Are you just cherry picking a bit?

Sprewell was the better defender but he would have to be the best defender in history * 20 to make up for the offensive gap of the two players.

Dude, like I told you, proceed at your own caution. You'll never get a cogent argument out of him if it involves Melo. Case and point, somehow in his world being all-defense twice (which only accounts for one side of the floor) is more significant than being all-NBA, which Melo has been for half his career (and that honor involves a player's complete game). He's got his own anti-Melo agenda and no amount of facts are going to disrupt that. Its why I don't even both to read his posts, unless I accidently glimpse it in someone else's response.

You'll never get a cogent argument out of him if it involves Melo. Case and point, somehow in his world being all-defense twice (which only accounts for one side of the floor) is more significant than being all-NBA, which Melo has been for half his career (and that honor involves a player's complete game).

sprewell has also been all NBA, actually first team.. something carmelo has never done... what is more significant is that sprewell was a results player.. came to NY, we go to finals first year.. he goes to the wolves they go to the ECF that same year..

Boy it would be nice if carmelo had that kind of impact on the knicks...

care to argue that? I am asking for results.. all you can give me are excuses.. because I am going to ask you now.. why are we failing with carmelo.. and you are going to blame it on someone else.... for a change. please surprise me...

otherwise you are doing what you are accusing me of..

This is what I'm talking about in terms of posts that lack objectivity.......You only touch on the surface of Spree's impact on the Knicks vs. Melo's impact.

The 99 version of the Knicks were 2x's better than any team that Melo played for on the Knicks. Spree played alongside Ewing, LJ, Houston and a young Camby. Truth be told, I would take every single one of those players before I'd take the next best player that Melo played with while in NY.

Also, that Minny team that went to the WCF also had a player by the name of Kevin Garnett. Who has Melo ever played with that was as good as KG?

I think you both have valid points of view, but spree and melo are 2 different kinds of players, into different roles. Spree wasn't the goto guy on the knicks or twolves, mean while the mind set that melo has..score score score is far diferent then the mind set of spree.

but actually during that finals run, he was the knicks go to guy on both ends of the floor... The other guys fed off of sprewell... and remember Ewing wasn't around..

Actually, anyone who does not know that it was Marcus Camby that carried this team is misinformed by a wide margin.

Ok, well then marcus camby was the greatest knick since Ewing.. in the end the argument comes down to winning..

You have no where else to go..

But this is even better.. camby is better than spree, and camby is better than melo and camby played with carmelo for many years, yet they still got bounced out of the first round many times.. and never made it to the finals...

but let me guess.... now the excuse is.. he had to play against Duncan right? well what happened when he played vs the clippers and the Utah Jazz?

Dude I am giving you a chance to retreat!!

I thought you were done? We'll if you are back for abuse then I welcome you with open arms.

P.S. Please go to the other thread and answer the 2's vs 3's value (bonus) question.

You cannot use spaghetti arguments and ambiguous inferences.

If (x = true and y = true)
x = x * 5 * y + 5

The knicks played well as a "team" and had a good run.

Denver played well as a "team" with CB and they had a good run

x != y * camby

Anthony has played poorly in many playoffs series we all know that. But so did Spree (though played better in GS and Minny). One has nothing to do with the other with understanding the sum of all of its parts.

Btw, when you start delving into the future and take a look at advanced stats, you will see that Camby's Win Shares were .280 that season. That is off the charts. Coincidence? I think not.

Sprewells was .102 (they obviously don't think that Sprewell produced many wins). Coincidence? I think not.

Sprewells run has nothing to do with Melo's run or AI's run or anyone else. Every team is different. They all play different competition, in different years, in different divs/confs. Any dope that tries to tie these apples and oranges is a dope.

If a player is efficient in a run. He played well. If he was not efficient, then he did not play well. Case closed.

Take a look at my Jeff Hornacek argument. He gets no fame or accolades yet his numbers were consistently excellent no matter what team he played on. Meaning that he was always an extremely positive sum player.

Numbers don't lie.

Anthony is what his numbers are in the playoffs. If he wants to be a better player in the playoffs then he has to be more efficient. If he is not efficient and he has some great positive teammate play and they pick up the slack then he won't nor should he get the credit for winning a playoff series.

again I ask.. sprewell took the knicks to the finals.. why was that?

carmelo has failed miserably here in the playoffs... why is that?

Keep trying..

First, I said the 99 Knicks were better than any Knick team that Melo has played on. Here's the question, name me one player one player that Melo is playing with right now or has played with during his run with the Knicks that you would take over any of the following: Ewing, LJ, Houston or Camby?

BTW....Ewing played 11 playoff games in '99, so I believe he played the entire Heat series and the Hawks series as well....If I remember correctly, he played 2 games against the Pacers before sitting out....Could be wrong, but I'll double check.....

Uptown wrote:TKF,

First, I said the 99 Knicks were better than any Knick team that Melo has played on. Here's the question, name me one player one player that Melo is playing with right now or has played with during his run with the Knicks that you would take over any of the following: Ewing, LJ, Houston or Camby?

BTW....Ewing played 11 playoff games in '99, so I believe he played the entire Heat series and the Hawks series as well....If I remember correctly, he played 2 games against the Pacers before sitting out....Could be wrong, but I'll double check.....

not calling anyone out - but did folks here actually watch the games? Ewing was really a shell of his former self that year. LJ was always just a 'super role' player who got by on grit and determination.

In 99 the knicks caught lightening in a bottle - both Sprewell and Camby clicked and played at a high level in the open court until they ran into a superior team.

The only thing I would give the 99 team over last year's team or this year's wining team is leadership, iq and the will to win. I'll give this current knick team the nod on 'talent'.

franco12 wrote:

Uptown wrote:TKF,

First, I said the 99 Knicks were better than any Knick team that Melo has played on. Here's the question, name me one player one player that Melo is playing with right now or has played with during his run with the Knicks that you would take over any of the following: Ewing, LJ, Houston or Camby?

BTW....Ewing played 11 playoff games in '99, so I believe he played the entire Heat series and the Hawks series as well....If I remember correctly, he played 2 games against the Pacers before sitting out....Could be wrong, but I'll double check.....

not calling anyone out - but did folks here actually watch the games? Ewing was really a shell of his former self that year. LJ was always just a 'super role' player who got by on grit and determination.

In 99 the knicks caught lightening in a bottle - both Sprewell and Camby clicked and played at a high level in the open court until they ran into a superior team.

The only thing I would give the 99 team over last year's team or this year's wining team is leadership, iq and the will to win. I'll give this current knick team the nod on 'talent'.

You call me out and ask if I actually watched the games then say some crazy sh#t like 'this current team has more talent then the 99 Knicks?' Question, how does coaching fit into this argument? Van Gundy is a much better coach than Woodson, not to mention that team was far superior on the defensive end than this team is. BTW, the shell of Ewing is still better than Chandler (Ewing put up 13 and 9 against a prime Mourning...and he didn't need to PNR alley-oop to score his points) and so was Camby during that year....

The only player on this current Knicks roster that can crack the starting line up is Melo...Every other position goes to the the '99 Knicks including the much maligned Charlie Ward....I'd take Childs over Felton as well because at least he could defend.

franco12 wrote:

Uptown wrote:

franco12 wrote:

Uptown wrote:TKF,

First, I said the 99 Knicks were better than any Knick team that Melo has played on. Here's the question, name me one player one player that Melo is playing with right now or has played with during his run with the Knicks that you would take over any of the following: Ewing, LJ, Houston or Camby?

BTW....Ewing played 11 playoff games in '99, so I believe he played the entire Heat series and the Hawks series as well....If I remember correctly, he played 2 games against the Pacers before sitting out....Could be wrong, but I'll double check.....

not calling anyone out - but did folks here actually watch the games? Ewing was really a shell of his former self that year. LJ was always just a 'super role' player who got by on grit and determination.

In 99 the knicks caught lightening in a bottle - both Sprewell and Camby clicked and played at a high level in the open court until they ran into a superior team.

The only thing I would give the 99 team over last year's team or this year's wining team is leadership, iq and the will to win. I'll give this current knick team the nod on 'talent'.

You call me out and ask if I actually watched the games then say some crazy sh#t like 'this current team has more talent then the 99 Knicks?' Question, how does coaching fit into this argument? Van Gundy is a much better coach than Woodson, not to mention that team was far superior on the defensive end than this team is. BTW, the shell of Ewing is still better than Chandler (Ewing put up 13 and 9 against a prime Mourning...and he didn't need to PNR alley-oop to score his points) and so was Camby during that year....

The only player on this current Knicks roster that can crack the starting line up is Melo...Every other position goes to the the '99 Knicks including the much maligned Charlie Ward....I'd take Childs over Felton as well because at least he could defend.

I was not calling anyone out per se.

I'd agree - Van Gundy over Woody.

I think its hard to compare Ward & Childs- they were allowed to essentially hand check folks on the perimeter. I'd argue they might not make it in today's NBA.

Also- which of today's teams are you comparing? The one that lost all the games? Or the one that is winning now and resembles the team from last year with 54 wins?

Personally -I think Melo is the better talent, Spree the better leader & 'Winner'

You might also want to compare post-Ewing Spree teams with Melo teams now. Just a thought, since I noticed no one is doing that.

Actually think Spree gets that host of geriatric retirees to the playoffs last year?
I don't think so.