Bonn1997 wrote:TS% values efficient offense, which means getting as many points per possession as possible. Guess what? So does winning. You know that the more points you score, the more likely you are to win, right? You're gonna get a little under 100 possessions in a game and you need to get as many points out of them as possible. FTs are the best way to do that (after uncontested layups).
Your interpretation that Harden is a flopper may or may not be right but is irrelevant.

All of that is an incomplete truth. Yes, Harden may have a higher TS% but that doesn't take into account a number of bias' in Harden's favor like pace of play and quality of teammates. These comparative disadvantages give Melo fewer and more difficult shots to take for his team to have any chance of winning. Offensively, Melo is the superior player.

holfresh wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:Flopping has nothing to do with being great. Even Lebron flops. Or are you gonna tell me Melo is better than Lebron too?
It's ironic because Melo gets more foul calls than about 355 of the 360 players in the league and gets away with more push-offs than anyone else. I don't bring those up (except in response to claims like yours) because it has no relevance. All that matters is how the game actually is called.

It's relevant when u get to the line 25 times against Memphis flopping, that not good basketball..

You know what's not good basketball? 15-26! Winning is good basketball.
Many (including me) would say Melo gets better treatment from the refs than Harden because Melo gets away with a much more ridiculous # of offensive fouls. I know you'll disagree but if you want an idea of the objectivity of everyone on this board when assessing the Knicks, look at this thread
http://www.ultimateknicks.com/forum/topic.asp?t=45681&p=s

holfresh wrote:Here is the think Bonn..You want to build your team around a guy like Harden who gives u this nonsense (pushes and flops but TS% is good) with zero defense to speak of then tell me Melo isn't a guy you build a team around...

dk7th wrote:

holfresh wrote:

dk7th wrote:

holfresh wrote:

dk7th wrote:

holfresh wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

holfresh wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

holfresh wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

holfresh wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

holfresh wrote:

StarksEwing1 wrote:

holfresh wrote:It's time for this organization to start thinking about rebuilding around Melo..JVG said it last night...They have to entertain trade scenarios around Chandler, Shump, etc...We might have to take a second look at Lowry...

It would ahve been much easier if we didnt have to tarde so many assets for him. If he would ahve just waited to sign with us as a FA we would probably be in better shape IMO

Name those "assets"...Tell me the reason why we stink is Gallo...Stops saying assets and put names to them...

Cap space was the biggest one but picks and solid players count too

Please elaborate, Gallo had to get 10 mil which became Tyson essentially..So please elaborate...What pick..Tell me about the picks Donnie gave away to get under the cap..He could have let ZBO and the others expire..Does that count???? We traded David Lee for garbage and pointless salary back, so apparently Donnie wasn't thinking about the cap at that point..

Gallo doesn't even make half what Melo does but no one said we had to keep him anyway. If you don't know what picks we gave up in the Melo trade, you can look that up easily. I don't see what the other questions have to do with the topic.

What?????I have no clue what u are trying to say...What is the relevance of pointing out Gallo salary??...U said we would have cap space if Melo came here via free agency..I said we would have to pay Gallo 10 mil per plus Melo and Amare....The Mayor had to walk because we had no money for him...Where is the cap space???

I named the assets we gave up to get Melo. I was only replying to that part of the discussion. I wouldn't have signed Melo to a max contract salary in the off-season.

U would have signed Harden right??

Most likely. Houston got a great deal with him at $14 mil per

More closer to 16 mil per...No too different from a max deal, only space for one more max guy...Sprinkle in Lin and Asik at 15 per next year...They have to pay Parsons at least 10 mil next year...Their other max guy is Howard, who can play, we signed Amare who can't play...Surprised u still support Harden after calling Melo a volume scorer, who shoots it better than Harden...

this is an idiotic statement. harden has a 60TS% or about 5 percentage points higher than your favorite centerfold.

Melo is a career 46% shooter, Harden 44%...Harden is a flopper, TS% values floppers...

is that what TS% does? golly and here i thought it was a good thing to be able to draw fouls. nice to watch what a macho and stoical dude melo is. he just nobly presses on. poor melo. poor poor melo.

So u like Harden's game where he constantly jerks his head as he goes into the lane to draw fouls that really aren't fouls???

no i like that a player can draw fouls by using gamesmanship. it shows craftiness and guile, something that melo and his fans don't understand or appreciate. it doesn't help your case when you realize that melo gets to the line just as often as harden and lebron james.

there is no reason why he could not be a 60TS% player, taking 16-18 shots a game, getting to the line 10 times a game. his 3point shooting is actually pretty ok the last couple of years. but his game lacks craft and guile. look at durant and lbj and pierce in his prime: craft and guile. another thing they have in common that melo doesn't have is that, even though their usage rates are high, their assist rates are also high, meaning that they create cohesion.

i can't emphasize that last point enough.

Craft and guile huh...I call that flopping..Where does sportsmanship come into play? Bron lied to his organization and told them he didn't know what he will do at the end of the season and u applaud that..Melo told the truth so Denver can get pieces in return and he can secure a longer deal and u say he is a bad guy..He doesn't flop and fake actual fouls so he lacks craft and guile..Who is the twisted one here??

NardDogNation wrote:

holfresh wrote:Here is the think Bonn..You want to build your team around a guy like Harden who gives u this nonsense (pushes and flops but TS% is good) with zero defense to speak of then tell me Melo isn't a guy you build a team around...

I don't think you have to make a case for Melo by bashing Harden. I'm every bit as ardent a defender of Melo as you are but I would love to have Harden on this team. We wouldn't be having any of the problems we are having now with both those guys on our team; Melo as our 1A and Harden as our 1B.

I'm showing the silliness of valuing one type of player over another because of TS%..I can't watch constant flopping tho..

Bonn1997 wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

holfresh wrote:Here is the think Bonn..You want to build your team around a guy like Harden who gives u this nonsense (pushes and flops but TS% is good) with zero defense to speak of then tell me Melo isn't a guy you build a team around...

I don't think you have to make a case for Melo by bashing Harden. I'm every bit as ardent a defender of Melo as you are but I would love to have Harden on this team. We wouldn't be having any of the problems we are having now with both those guys on our team; Melo as our 1A and Harden as our 1B.

Harden is carrying a 55 win team right now. He'd be 1B only if Lebron or Durant was on his team.

He was 1c behind Westbrook in OKC..What's more amazing is that Melo won 54 games with this roster ..

NardDogNation wrote:

holfresh wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

holfresh wrote:Here is the think Bonn..You want to build your team around a guy like Harden who gives u this nonsense (pushes and flops but TS% is good) with zero defense to speak of then tell me Melo isn't a guy you build a team around...

I don't think you have to make a case for Melo by bashing Harden. I'm every bit as ardent a defender of Melo as you are but I would love to have Harden on this team. We wouldn't be having any of the problems we are having now with both those guys on our team; Melo as our 1A and Harden as our 1B.

I'm showing the silliness of valuing one type of player over another because of TS%..I can't watch constant flopping tho..

I wouldn't. If flopping results in wins, I got no problem with it from my guys. I wouldn't do it on the basketball court though.

Well that your call not mine..it's not all about wins..It's winning the right way..

Bonn1997 wrote:

holfresh wrote:Here is the think Bonn..You want to build your team around a guy like Harden who gives u this nonsense (pushes and flops but TS% is good) with zero defense to speak of then tell me Melo isn't a guy you build a team around...

When you have a guy making 14-16 mil, building "with" rather than "around" would be more appropriate. I already said I'd sign Melo for that price too.
Your comment about zero defense may be supported by the blind eye test but not by the #s.

I'm sure the Yanks would resign Cano at 175 mil too..Unfortunately you or the Yanks don't set the market prices..Yanks will pay up for everyone else tho...

NardDogNation wrote:

holfresh wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

holfresh wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

holfresh wrote:Here is the think Bonn..You want to build your team around a guy like Harden who gives u this nonsense (pushes and flops but TS% is good) with zero defense to speak of then tell me Melo isn't a guy you build a team around...

I don't think you have to make a case for Melo by bashing Harden. I'm every bit as ardent a defender of Melo as you are but I would love to have Harden on this team. We wouldn't be having any of the problems we are having now with both those guys on our team; Melo as our 1A and Harden as our 1B.

I'm showing the silliness of valuing one type of player over another because of TS%..I can't watch constant flopping tho..

I wouldn't. If flopping results in wins, I got no problem with it from my guys. I wouldn't do it on the basketball court though.

Well that your call not mine..it's not all about wins..It's winning the right way..

There is no nobility in losing, either.

And there certainly isn't more nobility in getting away with push-offs and dipping your shoulder than in getting away with flopping.

holfresh wrote:

dk7th wrote:

holfresh wrote:

dk7th wrote:

holfresh wrote:

dk7th wrote:

holfresh wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

holfresh wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

holfresh wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

holfresh wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

holfresh wrote:

StarksEwing1 wrote:

holfresh wrote:It's time for this organization to start thinking about rebuilding around Melo..JVG said it last night...They have to entertain trade scenarios around Chandler, Shump, etc...We might have to take a second look at Lowry...

It would ahve been much easier if we didnt have to tarde so many assets for him. If he would ahve just waited to sign with us as a FA we would probably be in better shape IMO

Name those "assets"...Tell me the reason why we stink is Gallo...Stops saying assets and put names to them...

Cap space was the biggest one but picks and solid players count too

Please elaborate, Gallo had to get 10 mil which became Tyson essentially..So please elaborate...What pick..Tell me about the picks Donnie gave away to get under the cap..He could have let ZBO and the others expire..Does that count???? We traded David Lee for garbage and pointless salary back, so apparently Donnie wasn't thinking about the cap at that point..

Gallo doesn't even make half what Melo does but no one said we had to keep him anyway. If you don't know what picks we gave up in the Melo trade, you can look that up easily. I don't see what the other questions have to do with the topic.

What?????I have no clue what u are trying to say...What is the relevance of pointing out Gallo salary??...U said we would have cap space if Melo came here via free agency..I said we would have to pay Gallo 10 mil per plus Melo and Amare....The Mayor had to walk because we had no money for him...Where is the cap space???

I named the assets we gave up to get Melo. I was only replying to that part of the discussion. I wouldn't have signed Melo to a max contract salary in the off-season.

U would have signed Harden right??

Most likely. Houston got a great deal with him at $14 mil per

More closer to 16 mil per...No too different from a max deal, only space for one more max guy...Sprinkle in Lin and Asik at 15 per next year...They have to pay Parsons at least 10 mil next year...Their other max guy is Howard, who can play, we signed Amare who can't play...Surprised u still support Harden after calling Melo a volume scorer, who shoots it better than Harden...

this is an idiotic statement. harden has a 60TS% or about 5 percentage points higher than your favorite centerfold.

Melo is a career 46% shooter, Harden 44%...Harden is a flopper, TS% values floppers...

is that what TS% does? golly and here i thought it was a good thing to be able to draw fouls. nice to watch what a macho and stoical dude melo is. he just nobly presses on. poor melo. poor poor melo.

So u like Harden's game where he constantly jerks his head as he goes into the lane to draw fouls that really aren't fouls???

no i like that a player can draw fouls by using gamesmanship. it shows craftiness and guile, something that melo and his fans don't understand or appreciate. it doesn't help your case when you realize that melo gets to the line just as often as harden and lebron james.

there is no reason why he could not be a 60TS% player, taking 16-18 shots a game, getting to the line 10 times a game. his 3point shooting is actually pretty ok the last couple of years. but his game lacks craft and guile. look at durant and lbj and pierce in his prime: craft and guile. another thing they have in common that melo doesn't have is that, even though their usage rates are high, their assist rates are also high, meaning that they create cohesion.

i can't emphasize that last point enough.

Craft and guile huh...I call that flopping..Where does sportsmanship come into play? Bron lied to his organization and told them he didn't know what he will do at the end of the season and u applaud that..Melo told the truth so Denver can get pieces in return and he can secure a longer deal and u say he is a bad guy..He doesn't flop and fake actual fouls so he lacks craft and guile..Who is the twisted one here??

i said gamesmanship not sportsmanship.

lebron james honored his contract and played out the season. he owed the cavs nothing. there was nothing unethical in that.
lebron james colluded with two other guys to parlay a move to miami. collusion is unethical. it was a bitch move. and the tv show was insulting and embarrassing. but he took less money to go to where he wanted to go and he honored his contract. and he enriched the team he was going to by his actions. he wanted to win and he has won.

i call that gamesmanship or gaming the system.

carmelo did not honor his contract and was motivated by greed. he owed the nuggets the balance of his contract and nothing more. he met with dolan in vegas who knows nothing about basketball but loves to rub elbows with stars, leaving walsh out of the final decision. that backroom deal was borderline unethical but regardless the deal was motivated by greed. greed is not a matter of ethics it's a moral failing or a personal weakness of character. his actions enriched both the team he was leaving as well as himself and destroyed the germ of a decent team that he would have come to had he waited for free agency and taken less money. that's what lebron did.

melo's actions are the opposite of gamesmanship and you have the ultimate dupe in dolan to enable that.

amazing how the knicks had all that leverage in the beginning and managed to get the worst deal imaginable. but that is what a greedy player and an inept owner can do when they decide to work together.

funny how their games are a microcosm of this aspect of their lives, isn't it?